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Author Topic: [ANN][BURST] Burst | Efficient HDD Mining | New 1.2.3 Fork block 92000  (Read 2170608 times)
mmmaybe
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November 22, 2014, 05:53:15 PM
 #15101

The Web interface is down on burst-cryptoport.io but seems to still accept submissions


I haven't got a payout in 4h and the block no on the pool is way different than the blockexplorer's.

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November 22, 2014, 05:59:51 PM
Last edit: November 22, 2014, 06:38:23 PM by BitcoinGeekBoy
 #15102

Can someone fix all the dead links on ==> http://burstcoin.info/  ...?

 Huh

I like this coin.  Lets keep the good work going...
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November 22, 2014, 06:33:29 PM
 #15103

Reflink SPAM

seriously Huh
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November 22, 2014, 06:55:47 PM
 #15104

Be careful... What follows is stupid but made me laugh while I was thinking of it:

There's so many coins out there that you don't know which one to trust?
The answer's right in front of you, just believe in Burst!


I told you it was stupid Tongue
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November 22, 2014, 07:10:28 PM
 #15105

Be careful... What follows is stupid but made me laugh while I was thinking of it:

There's so many coins out there that you don't know which one to trust?
The answer's right in front of you, just believe in Burst!


I told you it was stupid Tongue

Huh
The rhyme is stupid, not Burst... Obviously...
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November 22, 2014, 07:55:29 PM
 #15106

Be careful... What follows is stupid but made me laugh while I was thinking of it:

There's so many coins out there that you don't know which one to trust?
The answer's right in front of you, just believe in Burst!


I told you it was stupid Tongue

Rhymes that don't actually rhyme always burst my bubble.

 Cry

Why the frell so many retards spell "ect" as an abbreviation of "Et Cetera"? "ETC", DAMMIT! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_cetera

Host:/# rm -rf /var/forum/trolls
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November 22, 2014, 08:11:02 PM
 #15107

after reading the miner source code, i think we dont need disk space at all
we can create opencl kernel of this code : https://github.com/BurstProject/pocminer/blob/master/src/pocminer/util/MiningPlot.java

nonce argument is any nonce u want, addr is ur account number
we can bruteforce any nonce within 240 seconds each block using GPU
and broadcast the best nonce that produce lowest deadline

assuming GPU can do shabal256 at 1 GH/s , that is equal to 240 Giga Nonce (240 secs blocktime) which is equal to 60 GB of disk space ( 1 nonce = 0.25MB )
and again, getting into 1 TB disk space performance, will require atleast 17 GPU (assuming 1 GH/s is accurate)
conclusion : if it is near 1 GH/s its cheaper to use harddrive than GPU

and loking at a glance of shabal256 it is really cheap in computation, i think we really need replace shabal with more memory intensive algo such as scrypt or something to make harddrive mining is far more efficient than GPU or future ASIC

this is my understanding after reading the miner code,
using disk space


and after using GPU, without disk


This doesn't seem very ASIC resistant to me. Seems to me like yes, it'll take more time to be ASIC resistant and ASICs won't be as efficient as straight POW but once you can create an ASIC it's no longer Proof of Capacity and the coolest thing about the coin doesn't mean much... what am I missing?

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November 22, 2014, 08:21:10 PM
 #15108

after reading the miner source code, i think we dont need disk space at all
we can create opencl kernel of this code : https://github.com/BurstProject/pocminer/blob/master/src/pocminer/util/MiningPlot.java

nonce argument is any nonce u want, addr is ur account number
we can bruteforce any nonce within 240 seconds each block using GPU
and broadcast the best nonce that produce lowest deadline

assuming GPU can do shabal256 at 1 GH/s , that is equal to 240 Giga Nonce (240 secs blocktime) which is equal to 60 GB of disk space ( 1 nonce = 0.25MB )
and again, getting into 1 TB disk space performance, will require atleast 17 GPU (assuming 1 GH/s is accurate)
conclusion : if it is near 1 GH/s its cheaper to use harddrive than GPU

and loking at a glance of shabal256 it is really cheap in computation, i think we really need replace shabal with more memory intensive algo such as scrypt or something to make harddrive mining is far more efficient than GPU or future ASIC

this is my understanding after reading the miner code,
using disk space


and after using GPU, without disk


This doesn't seem very ASIC resistant to me. Seems to me like yes, it'll take more time to be ASIC resistant and ASICs won't be as efficient as straight POW but once you can create an ASIC it's no longer Proof of Capacity and the coolest thing about the coin doesn't mean much... what am I missing?
you miss the running costs for the asics. today you can put 6tb capacity into a miner which consumes with cpu a maximum of 15-20 watts.
a asic  consuming 15-20 watts may reach a capacity of round about 1 tb (compared to current sha256 asics).

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November 22, 2014, 09:15:26 PM
 #15109

In the middle of writing a reply, need a number though, anyone know the number of bytes per scoop?  There is some standard size, right?

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November 22, 2014, 09:31:04 PM
 #15110

How much disk space did BURST take in the top moment?
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November 22, 2014, 09:58:27 PM
 #15111

How would would estimate the amount of energy used by the burst network vs Bitcoin?

I guess the biggest question is, what percentage of the time do hard drives need to be online to be used to mine?

There are a lot of assumptions in these numbers, but it should still give a rough estimate.  

Bitcoin network electrical consumption:

Assumption: The average Bitcoin miner has the efficiency of an Antminer S4 of 0.69 Watts/(GH/s).

In reality, this assumption is very generous because the efficiency for most ASICs will be worse than one of the most power efficient available.  
Total Bitcoin hashrate as of 11/20/14 at 11:20pm: 284,772,770 GH/s

Total electricity consumption (at a minimum): 0.69 W/(GH/s) * (284,772,770 GH/s) = 196,493,211.3 Watts = 196,493 kilowatts


BURST network electrical consumption:

Assumption: The average hard drive on the BURST network is 1 TB.

According to http://www.buildcomputers.net/power-consumption-of-pc-components.html, the average hard drive consumes 10 W. Most hard drives on the network are probably 2 TB or larger, but assuming 1 TB is a worst cast scenario (two 1 TB hard drives use 20 W vs one 2 TB hard drive uses 10 W).

Assumption: BURST network is at its highest difficulty and largest size at 9000 TB.

10 W/drive * 9000 drives = 90,000 W = 90 kilowatts

90 / 196,493 = 0.045% of Bitcoin's electricity at current levels

EDIT: 10 W is the most that a hard drive typically uses. Idling uses about half as much power or less.


Started reading this a little bit more closely.. I would like a comparison that is similar network sizes.. so let's say we grew to be Bitcoin sized and just as much money was placed into buying hard drives as has been placed into buying ASICs.

Remember that if mining with an onboard hard drive, it basically doesn't count.. it's electricity any decentralized network has to use to stay up and running and run the blockchain.  And if it's an external drive then you can read from it and not just idle it but completely turn it off until it's your next turn to mine.. after all it serves no purpose to you(so it runs for 1 minutes per  24 hours or something like that? That's the number I can't figure out how to estimate) or at least that's how I see it, is that fair?

Also, I was worried about this but Google did a study that shows that spinning up and down the drive barely affects it's lifetime. (3% more likely to fail after 2 years of being turned off and on repeatedly)

New comparison is BURST network at the popularity of Bitcoin right now vs. Bitcoin:
Bitcoin statistics stay the same as above.

BURST Electricity when an equal amount of money is invested (not including free hard drive space on the operating system drive):
Assumption: The average price of the Antminer S3+ costs about $350 since its release and runs at 450 GH/s.

284,772,770 / 450 = 632829 Antminer S3+ on the Bitcoin network
632829 * $350 = $221,490,150 (Actual amount is less considering how many ASICs are more efficient)

Assumption: A 3 TB hard drive costs $90.

$221,490,150 / $90 * 3 = 7,383,005 TB on network
Round up to 10,000,000 TB to account for hard drive space on the operating system partition.

10,000,000 TB * 10 W/TB = 100,000,000 W = 100,000 kilowatts

I rounded these numbers to give BURST the worst possible energy consumption. This is more of an estimate because it is really hard to know how much money has really gone into Bitcoin ASICs and figuring out how much space is added from C: partitions.
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November 22, 2014, 10:27:17 PM
 #15112


Yes, why not? Maybe we will not be able to buy large quantities but will serve to buy and hold. At the end you should not invest money or bitcoin but occasionally do a roll, if we were many in however we will be able to buy constantly a decent amount of Burst to be removed from the market and to be destroyed if exist a burn address.
If you want read the original messagge, you can find it here on the official burstforum.com
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November 22, 2014, 10:42:46 PM
Last edit: November 22, 2014, 11:51:09 PM by mczarnek
 #15113

you miss the running costs for the asics. today you can put 6tb capacity into a miner which consumes with cpu a maximum of 15-20 watts.
a asic  consuming 15-20 watts may reach a capacity of round about 1 tb (compared to current sha256 asics).

Let's compare an ASIC to a hard drive, assuming that you can do a SHABAL256 hash in approximately the same amount of time as SHA256 hash, which I looked around and that seems about accurate.. though I grant that Bitcoin is SHAing much smaller chunks of data as blocks are currently smaller than 256 MB/s.. (so do larger blocks mean fewer Hashes per second?).. maybe that plays a role?

https://cointerra.com/product/aire-miner-bitcoin-miner/
This ASIC could therefore do 4.5 TH/s, requires 1350 watts (0.225 watt per GH/s), and costs $2,500.

So 4.5 TH/s = 4.5TH/s * 60 seconds/minutes * 4 minutes/block = 1080 TH/block

One plot is 4096 Hashes.. so an ASIC could produce 1080,000,000,000,000 Hashes per block/4096 Hashes per plot = 263,671,875,000 plots per block.

So an ASIC can test 263,671,875,000 plots per block for the price of $2,500 and 1350 Watts.

Which gives you 1350 Watts per 263,671,875,000 plots = 0.00000000512 W per simulated plot for an ASIC.

And a cost of $2,500 per 263,671,875,000 plots = $0.000,000,009,5 per simulated plot


Assume a hard drive costs $35 per TB and uses 10W to run full power, but only runs for long enough to read the 256 kb plot from the drive, which at upper words of 80MB/s, so negligible.
 
So it idles for the majority of the block and say on average uses 3.5 W.  So with hard drives you are using $35 and 3.5W per plot

Which means that ASICs win by a landslide.


I'm sure I'm missing something, so please explain this further to me!  I hear it currently takes hours to generate a plot with a GPU and sounded like other people were testing this, so I suspect I am missing something.. but please tell me what!  What is the bottleneck in GPU plotting?  Writing to the harddrive? Because an ASIC could get around this by simply not storing the result even if it means burning through the exact same calculations repeatedly every block.


Edit: ran this by burstcoin, who tells me that this calculation is incorrect, that 1 round of shabal256 hashing is approximately half a million sha256 calculations.. so multiple those ASIC numbers by half a million.. and it is much more ASIC resistant.

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November 22, 2014, 10:43:33 PM
 #15114

Hey all,

I was thinking about changing to solo mining for a while to see if there is an improvement or not compared to mining on a pool.
I am currently using Urays miner on his US pool.

I thought is was possible to solo mine using this miner, but I am uncertain of how to proceed. Obviously I need to change the http://127.0.0.1:8125/rewardassignment.html to my address. But can I just point the miner to localhost and start mining or are further steps required?

Do any of you users use Urays miner for solo mining and have a working config-file that you would be willing to share?

Should I perhaps use another miner that is better for solo mining, any suggestions?
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November 22, 2014, 10:51:56 PM
 #15115

New comparison is BURST network at the popularity of Bitcoin right now vs. Bitcoin:
Bitcoin statistics stay the same as above.

BURST Electricity when an equal amount of money is invested (not including free hard drive space on the operating system drive):
Assumption: The average price of the Antminer S3+ costs about $350 since its release and runs at 450 GH/s.

284,772,770 / 450 = 632829 Antminer S3+ on the Bitcoin network
632829 * $350 = $221,490,150 (Actual amount is less considering how many ASICs are more efficient)

Assumption: A 3 TB hard drive costs $90.

$221,490,150 / $90 * 3 = 7,383,005 TB on network
Round up to 10,000,000 TB to account for hard drive space on the operating system partition.

10,000,000 TB * 10 W/TB = 100,000,000 W = 100,000 kilowatts

I rounded these numbers to give BURST the worst possible energy consumption. This is more of an estimate because it is really hard to know how much money has really gone into Bitcoin ASICs and figuring out how much space is added from C: partitions.

Using those number Bitcoin by comparison uses 0.77W/GH (Antminer efficiency), in other words 284,772,770GH * 0.77W/GH = 219,275,032.9W

So they are fairly similar actually if the two grow similarly, right?

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November 23, 2014, 12:16:34 AM
 #15116

mczarnek, have you seen this exchange with Luke-Jr?  It may answer some of your questions.

Yes, you can do the same thing with scrypt...

The key part you may be missing in the "shoddily made flow chart" is that it "Does not include caching plot\[s\] to disk and retrieving them."  For $130 plus plotting and optimization time, a 4TB drive can store about 4*(10**12)/(2**18) = 15,258,789 precalculated values corresponding to the boxes in the bottom right-hand corner of the diagram (i.e., "Hash, then hash with the resulting hash, etc.")  The other hashes in the mining calculation are fast or only computed once per block, so you can check these 15M values as fast as you can read them off the disk.

Even the latest bitcoin mining hardware provides at best 5 orders of magnitude speedup over CPU hashing speeds, so your custom ASIC burning hundreds of watts might just about come within an order of magnitude of the speed achieved with cheap commodity hardware burning less than 10 watts (see figures 11-13).

A custom ASIC for shabal hashes would be super useful for the initial plotting, though.

From the "shoddily made flow chart", this algorithm looks like essentially a more complex and simpler (in different ways) version of scrypt, just with very high memory requirements.
It is probably just as weak to ASICs, though I can't say for sure without more information.
Do actual specifications exist for the algorithm?
Also, is anyone interested in doing a BFGMiner port I can merge?

This algo mines via hdd capacity. Only way an asic would be useful is during the plotting process, but that's not a mining process.
It doesn't have to be a HD, it could just as well be (a lot of) RAM.
This is essentially the same way scrypt works, except scrypt altcoins aren't using as much capacity.

The flowchart is missing the caching and retrieving from disk parts. Since the account id and nonces are run through the repeat hashing step before any network state is used, the results of the repeat hashing can be saved and reused every block, with the miner only having to do the repeat hashing once ever per nonce. This makes it so the computational expense of that initial repeat hashing can be increased any amount without causing miners to do any extra work after the initial caching process. The more expensive that repeat hashing step becomes, the more efficient using pre-cached work is over computing everything on the fly.

Still working on the ASIC resistance.  So far, I've got an explanation of why ASIC resistance is important.   Sorry it's taking me a while.

(Meant to be read in emacs org-mode.  Lines with asterices are headings.  More asterices means lower in the heading hierarchy.)

* The ongoing centralization of bitcoin mining

** The role of mining in securing a cryptocurrency

Bitcoin's key innovation in is "mining," a way to encourage people to
make an economic commitment in order to participate in a distributed
consensus about the history of bitcoin transactions.  It's essentially a
lottery where you "buy" tickets by running a certain computation.  Each
computation generates a lottery ticket and, roughly speaking, if your
ticket has the right number you get to specify the recent transactions
which are appended to the official history in a "block."  (The official
history is usually referred to as the "blockchain.")  One of these
transactions is usually a reward to yourself, and these rewards are the
financial incentive for mining.  If you think of bitcoin as roughly
similar to a credit card system, winning the mining lottery is like
becoming the system's payment processor for a very brief period.

In terms of security, the main benefit of mining is to ensure that it's
very expensive to rewrite a transaction after it goes into the official
record.  Very roughly speaking, you would need to generate approximately
the same number of lottery tickets as all mining participants have since
the transaction was recorded.  A second benefit is that the process is
massively parallel so in principle many people can participate in it.
This decentralization makes it hard to organize collusive manipulation
of the transaction history.

** Economic incentives to centralize mining

There is a strong incentive to do the mining computations as quickly and
as cheaply as possible: The more lottery tickets ("hashes") you
generate, the more often you get the mining reward.  The equipment and
electricity required to generate hashes at a given rate are now about
100,000 times cheaper than they were when bitcoin started. These massive
efficiency gains have mostly been due to the fact that bitcoin initially
ran on commodity CPUs which a huge fraction of people in the developed
world already owned, and now mostly runs on specialized hardware which
is mostly only useful for bitcoin mining, and the fabrication of which
depends on hundreds of thousands of dollars of initial research and
development.

Bitcoin mining thus now requires capital-intensive infrastructure, and
this has predictably led to centralization, i.e. While many were happy
to try out bitcoin in the early days with their spare CPU cycles, far
fewer are prepared to commit $2900 upfront for a mining appliance on the
argument that current conditions suggest they would recoup their outlay
in 100 days or so.  Even though ever more capital is committed to
verifying the bitcoin transaction history, it is being concentrated in
the hands of fewer people.

Another factor which has contributed to centralization arises from the
extremely sporadic (though large) minining rewards.  For instance, using
the above-mentioned $2900 bitcoin mining appliance, at the time of
writing the expected time between winning the lottery (about a $10,000
payout) is about 11 months, with a 10% probability of taking over 25
months. This high variability in payouts forces a mining operation to
keep a lot of cash on hand for ongoing costs like electricity and loan
repayments.  One way to smooth this pay schedule out is to pool efforts
with other miners.  With 1000 such miners cooperating, the expected time
to payout is just 8 hours, and a cashflow of $10 roughly every 8 hours
is much easier to manage than $10,000 roughly every 11 months.  And of
course the bigger the pool becomes, the lower the variance gets, so big
pools have a competitive advantage just from their size.  

This is a powerful centralizing force which has led to the majority of
hashes being generated in the service of just four mining pools at the
time of writing.  If the four entities running those pools were to
collude, they could rewrite the transaction history.  In June 2014, one
of these pools (GHash.IO) came to control 40% of bitcoin mining power
because it used its size and connections to present a sweeter deal to
miners than other pools could.  There were widespread concerns at the
time that the integrity of bitcoin might soon depend on the sheer good
will of GHash.  Many GHash miners moved to other pools in order to
prevent that, but in doing so they acted against their own short-term
economic interests, a clear failure of the mining incentive scheme as it
was originally intended, though so far not a catastrophic one.

* Attempts to make mining less capital-intensive

The centralizing force of customized mining hardware ("ASICs") was
widely recognized fairly early, and people attempted to mitigate the
issue by developing memory-intensive mining algorithms which they hoped
would run most efficiently on commodity CPUs.  It was hoped that since
with these algorithms most of the computation time is spent keeping track
track of large, mutating data sets, custom hardware would not provide a
significant advantage compared to the memory cache on commodity CPUs.
This has worked to some extent -- for instance, the per-hash cost of
custom hardware for mining LiteCoin (the first cryptocurrency to use
such an algorithm) is only about 100 times lower than mining on a
contemporary CPU.  However, the start-up costs necessary to gain this
efficiency are still high enough to motivate intensive centralization --
such a device currently costs $1600, and three pools currently control
more than half the LiteCoin hashing power.

There are also people researching mining algorithms which are so
computationally flexible that specialized hardware just doesn't make
sense for them.  SAT...
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November 23, 2014, 12:55:49 AM
Last edit: November 23, 2014, 01:20:14 AM by callmejack
 #15117

mczarnek, have you seen this exchange with Luke-Jr?  It may answer some of your questions.

Yes, you can do the same thing with scrypt...

The key part you may be missing in the "shoddily made flow chart" is that it "Does not include caching plot\[s\] to disk and retrieving them."  For $130 plus plotting and optimization time, a 4TB drive can store about 4*(10**12)/(2**18) = 15,258,789 precalculated values corresponding to the boxes in the bottom right-hand corner of the diagram (i.e., "Hash, then hash with the resulting hash, etc.")  The other hashes in the mining calculation are fast or only computed once per block, so you can check these 15M values as fast as you can read them off the disk.

Even the latest bitcoin mining hardware provides at best 5 orders of magnitude speedup over CPU hashing speeds, so your custom ASIC burning hundreds of watts might just about come within an order of magnitude of the speed achieved with cheap commodity hardware burning less than 10 watts (see figures 11-13).

A custom ASIC for shabal hashes would be super useful for the initial plotting, though.

From the "shoddily made flow chart", this algorithm looks like essentially a more complex and simpler (in different ways) version of scrypt, just with very high memory requirements.
It is probably just as weak to ASICs, though I can't say for sure without more information.
Do actual specifications exist for the algorithm?
Also, is anyone interested in doing a BFGMiner port I can merge?

This algo mines via hdd capacity. Only way an asic would be useful is during the plotting process, but that's not a mining process.
It doesn't have to be a HD, it could just as well be (a lot of) RAM.
This is essentially the same way scrypt works, except scrypt altcoins aren't using as much capacity.

The flowchart is missing the caching and retrieving from disk parts. Since the account id and nonces are run through the repeat hashing step before any network state is used, the results of the repeat hashing can be saved and reused every block, with the miner only having to do the repeat hashing once ever per nonce. This makes it so the computational expense of that initial repeat hashing can be increased any amount without causing miners to do any extra work after the initial caching process. The more expensive that repeat hashing step becomes, the more efficient using pre-cached work is over computing everything on the fly.

Still working on the ASIC resistance.  So far, I've got an explanation of why ASIC resistance is important.   Sorry it's taking me a while.

(Meant to be read in emacs org-mode.  Lines with asterices are headings.  More asterices means lower in the heading hierarchy.)

* The ongoing centralization of bitcoin mining

** The role of mining in securing a cryptocurrency

Bitcoin's key innovation in is "mining," a way to encourage people to
make an economic commitment in order to participate in a distributed
consensus about the history of bitcoin transactions.  It's essentially a
lottery where you "buy" tickets by running a certain computation.  Each
computation generates a lottery ticket and, roughly speaking, if your
ticket has the right number you get to specify the recent transactions
which are appended to the official history in a "block."  (The official
history is usually referred to as the "blockchain.")  One of these
transactions is usually a reward to yourself, and these rewards are the
financial incentive for mining.  If you think of bitcoin as roughly
similar to a credit card system, winning the mining lottery is like
becoming the system's payment processor for a very brief period.

In terms of security, the main benefit of mining is to ensure that it's
very expensive to rewrite a transaction after it goes into the official
record.  Very roughly speaking, you would need to generate approximately
the same number of lottery tickets as all mining participants have since
the transaction was recorded.  A second benefit is that the process is
massively parallel so in principle many people can participate in it.
This decentralization makes it hard to organize collusive manipulation
of the transaction history.

** Economic incentives to centralize mining

There is a strong incentive to do the mining computations as quickly and
as cheaply as possible: The more lottery tickets ("hashes") you
generate, the more often you get the mining reward.  The equipment and
electricity required to generate hashes at a given rate are now about
100,000 times cheaper than they were when bitcoin started. These massive
efficiency gains have mostly been due to the fact that bitcoin initially
ran on commodity CPUs which a huge fraction of people in the developed
world already owned, and now mostly runs on specialized hardware which
is mostly only useful for bitcoin mining, and the fabrication of which
depends on hundreds of thousands of dollars of initial research and
development.

Bitcoin mining thus now requires capital-intensive infrastructure, and
this has predictably led to centralization, i.e. While many were happy
to try out bitcoin in the early days with their spare CPU cycles, far
fewer are prepared to commit $2900 upfront for a mining appliance on the
argument that current conditions suggest they would recoup their outlay
in 100 days or so.  Even though ever more capital is committed to
verifying the bitcoin transaction history, it is being concentrated in
the hands of fewer people.

Another factor which has contributed to centralization arises from the
extremely sporadic (though large) minining rewards.  For instance, using
the above-mentioned $2900 bitcoin mining appliance, at the time of
writing the expected time between winning the lottery (about a $10,000
payout) is about 11 months, with a 10% probability of taking over 25
months. This high variability in payouts forces a mining operation to
keep a lot of cash on hand for ongoing costs like electricity and loan
repayments.  One way to smooth this pay schedule out is to pool efforts
with other miners.  With 1000 such miners cooperating, the expected time
to payout is just 8 hours, and a cashflow of $10 roughly every 8 hours
is much easier to manage than $10,000 roughly every 11 months.  And of
course the bigger the pool becomes, the lower the variance gets, so big
pools have a competitive advantage just from their size. 

This is a powerful centralizing force which has led to the majority of
hashes being generated in the service of just four mining pools at the
time of writing.  If the four entities running those pools were to
collude, they could rewrite the transaction history.  In June 2014, one
of these pools (GHash.IO) came to control 40% of bitcoin mining power
because it used its size and connections to present a sweeter deal to
miners than other pools could.  There were widespread concerns at the
time that the integrity of bitcoin might soon depend on the sheer good
will of GHash.  Many GHash miners moved to other pools in order to
prevent that, but in doing so they acted against their own short-term
economic interests, a clear failure of the mining incentive scheme as it
was originally intended, though so far not a catastrophic one.

* Attempts to make mining less capital-intensive

The centralizing force of customized mining hardware ("ASICs") was
widely recognized fairly early, and people attempted to mitigate the
issue by developing memory-intensive mining algorithms which they hoped
would run most efficiently on commodity CPUs.  It was hoped that since
with these algorithms most of the computation time is spent keeping track
track of large, mutating data sets, custom hardware would not provide a
significant advantage compared to the memory cache on commodity CPUs.
This has worked to some extent -- for instance, the per-hash cost of
custom hardware for mining LiteCoin (the first cryptocurrency to use
such an algorithm) is only about 100 times lower than mining on a
contemporary CPU.  However, the start-up costs necessary to gain this
efficiency are still high enough to motivate intensive centralization --
such a device currently costs $1600, and three pools currently control
more than half the LiteCoin hashing power.

There are also people researching mining algorithms which are so
computationally flexible that specialized hardware just doesn't make
sense for them.  SAT...

for the future of burst compared to bitcoin it is absolutely worth to mention that the main difference in the protocol is that no transactions get included within blocks by the miner. this is absolutely important because nobody can exclude transactions when mining a block.
if you think in terms of centralized mining monopoles they could decide to not confirm blacklisted addresses.
if today someone would have the intention to destroy bitcoin it can simply  be done by buying up all major mining companies and not include any transactions in the mined blocks. this way about 50 million dollar could destroy 5 billion dollar.
this applies to all btc based clones and means the future is burst!

 

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November 23, 2014, 03:08:56 AM
 #15118

for the future of burst compared to bitcoin it is absolutely worth to mention that the main difference in the protocol is that no transactions get included within blocks by the miner. this is absolutely important because nobody can exclude transactions when mining a block.
if you think in terms of centralized mining monopoles they could decide to not confirm blacklisted addresses.
if today someone would have the intention to destroy bitcoin it can simply  be done by buying up all major mining companies and not include any transactions in the mined blocks. this way about 50 million dollar could destroy 5 billion dollar.
this applies to all btc based clones and means the future is burst!

I'm pretty sure that for $50M you could 51% bitcoin.  Last time I calculated it, the cost was around $100M if you paid retail for the ASICs, and anyone with that kind of money could fab them for much less.

That's not to say the oligopoly isn't a weakness, but the attack will come in some subtler way.  The State Department didn't buy PayPal in order to shutdown payments to Wikileaks, they just claimed Wikileaks is a criminal organization, implicitly threatening to punish PayPal  for Wikileaks transactions.  If you ever see mining pools refusing to record some form of transaction, probably something like that will be going on.
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November 23, 2014, 03:16:05 AM
 #15119

I can see that this thread is slowly moving towards a new direction in discussion. Hope it can keep it up.
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November 23, 2014, 07:20:29 AM
Last edit: November 23, 2014, 09:26:09 AM by mmmaybe
 #15120

I can see that this thread is slowly moving towards a new direction in discussion. Hope it can keep it up.

That's, great Smiley


But I need to ask uray, SG seems to be out of sync. The front-end says 37113, but we're mining 37126. Should we worry?


*** Edit: now it redirects me to https://beta-pool.burstcoin.io, which seems to be up-to-date.
*** Edit 2: if https://beta-pool.burstcoin.io is R3, I just want to say I really like it! By far the best frontend of all the pools. Great, great work Smiley

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