[∞ YH] solo.ckpool.org 2% fee solo mining USA/DE 255 blocks solved!

[philipma1957]

we are in hold mode with only the bonus fixed rate hashing

http://solo.ckpool.org/users/1CqbvmuJcLFDFzFewKmBVAaghXEtByzY9Y


"bestshare": 9,717,111,133.1762638}


the big orders of 200th and 800th at west and nice hash are in a frozen state


#393676   Standard   Alive   0.0098   0.01458511   ∞   50.00   0   0.0000
#393756   Standard   Alive   0.0098   0.99647398   ∞   200.00   0   0.0000  us at west hash
#394035   Standard   Alive   0.0098   0.48487025   ∞   10.00   0   0.0000



#382338   Standard   Alive   0.0098   0.51807463   ∞   50.00   0   0.0000
#393760   Standard   Alive   0.0098   4.83884262   ∞   800.00   0   0.0000 us  at nicehash
#386619   Standard   Alive   0.0098   0.04788766   ∞   5.00   0   0.0000


we have about 13 hours left

[1714754606]

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[aurel57]

100T + seems to be the magic numbers lately.

Funny you say that. I had noticed that not a single person who rented 1+ PH has ever found a block here. Not sure exactly what that means but as well as some very lucky people there have been some very unlucky people. There is really, however, no way to confirm the hardware you are hiring isn't configured in such a way as to never find you a block mind you so you're always taking a risk (they'd need to be very nasty operators and I seriously doubt they'd risk their reputation with so much hashrate at their disposal but you never know).

I am trying to wrap my head around this.... As far a withholding the blocks or configuring the miners to not find or show the blocks? Would this be on the rig owners end or the site you rent thru?

[-ck]

I am trying to wrap my head around this.... As far a withholding the blocks or configuring the miners to not find or show the blocks? Would this be on the rig owners end or the site you rent thru?

Could be done at any level, but rig owners stand to gain by effectively earning PPS on their hashrate without the concomitant rise in diff associated with their hashrate.

[nicehash]

100T + seems to be the magic numbers lately.

Funny you say that. I had noticed that not a single person who rented 1+ PH has ever found a block here. Not sure exactly what that means but as well as some very lucky people there have been some very unlucky people. There is really, however, no way to confirm the hardware you are hiring isn't configured in such a way as to never find you a block mind you so you're always taking a risk (they'd need to be very nasty operators and I seriously doubt they'd risk their reputation with so much hashrate at their disposal but you never know).

Well, just to make a small comment here - hashing power from NiceHash/WestHash is as good as from any physical miner... Maybe even better, because we're the only service that is actually doing full share validation at our side to exclude any possible fakers (https://www.nicehash.com/index.jsp?p=faq#faqg3).

Also, what you're describing is possible to do on any other pool with physical miners, it's one of the issues of stratum mining where you can't actually know if miners are submitting all of their shares.

Here is a sneak-peak from one of our upcoming features - hashing power buyers will be able to see detailed graph statistics for their order (speed, rejects and other possible target pool issues) and thus will be able to compare purchased hashing power to the one that target pool is getting.

Take a look at the current solo-club 1PH order (times UTC-2):





As you can see the hashing power is stable and "good quality". But I'd like to raise here another issue with "pausing" orders. As you can see, solo-club's order is on pause in particular periods or doesn't reach full speed (due to order's price limitation - this is typical for many big orders). Now, if we're talking about luck (and to be honest, luck is all about solo mining), what if your lucky moments are exactly in those "paused" periods and you're just missing them? ... just joking

[-ck]

Also, what you're describing is possible to do on any other pool with physical miners, it's one of the issues of stratum mining where you can't actually know if miners are submitting all of their shares.

PPLNS or DGM protect pool operators partially as the miners actually lose out by withholding their blocks. The only pooled mining which is "protected" is... solo mining. But thanks for your contribution and reassurance.

EDIT: Actually do you monitor how many blocks your miners solve? You said full share validation but you didn't mention blocks. Shares are worth precisely zero here.

[kano]

...
Also, what you're describing is possible to do on any other pool with physical miners, it's one of the issues of stratum mining where you can't actually know if miners are submitting all of their shares.
...

Not sure what your point is there - that's nothing specifically to do with stratum - that's to do with all mining - including your rented miners.

As noted above - solo mining with your own hardware is protected against it coz you'd be a retard to withhold blocks when solo mining with your own hardware, but nothing stops someone renting you hardware from withholding since they get paid if you don't find blocks.

As I already made this clear before:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1002086.0

[cisahasa]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergears to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or rentalsite blocking miners submitting high shares to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

[kano]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

[cisahasa]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

[NiceHashSupport]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Exactly, probably impossible to identify. And since all PPS pools (and others to some extent) are voulnerable to this type of attack (and PPS pools being here for several years) - the big question is, why this question was 'opened' by kano regarding rentals? To me, it looks like an attempt to discredit certain rental sites. All rental sites together have less than 10 PHs, but major PPS pools have more than 50 PHs. If anyone should be worried about this are large PPS pools rather than rentals, because these pools have the most to loose in events of such attacks.

[jonnybravo0311]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Exactly, probably impossible to identify. And since all PPS pools (and others to some extent) are voulnerable to this type of attack (and PPS pools being here for several years) - the big question is, why this question was 'opened' by kano regarding rentals? To me, it looks like an attempt to discredit certain rental sites. All rental sites together have less than 10 PHs, but major PPS pools have more than 50 PHs. If anyone should be worried about this are large PPS pools rather than rentals, because these pools have the most to loose in events of such attacks.

Kano didn't open any question.  I raised this very same point months ago.  It is not a dig against any rental site in particular but rather is a risk people take when renting gear.  When I rent I take the chance that the person who owns the gear is not acting maliciously.  The gear owner could be doing exactly what is described: running hardware/software that either by design or by accident is withholding block solutions.  There is absolutely no risk to the gear owner since he is getting paid by the rental site as long as he is providing shares.  There is nothing you as the rental site owner can do to validate whether or not this is taking place.

Let's say that I write some code to the effect of "do not submit any shares that are of 40B or greater".  How would you know that I'm withholding that?  To you I'm still hashing away and regularly submitting shares.  You think all is good and pay me.  The renter is still getting the hash rate he paid for.

[kano]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

[sorry2xs]

on the same thought, If the dev.of cgminer are aware of block witholding isn't it possible to stop it within the cgminer code it self just asking.

[NiceHashSupport]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

But it is also an attack that does not benefit miner at all. Except very large farms to benefit from possible tiny bit lower difficulty. And the bigger the farm, the more chances such attack can be identified. We think there are not enough pros for any big farm to get into this and so far, we also have no proofs of any farm doing this so these claims are just pure speculations.

[philipma1957]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

Well I have made 1 block with hash rented from nicehash .

I made it on www.mmpool.org

and to say we must trust the company renting hash to us to point to a pool in every case except a pool like f2pool is true.



 the real danger of renting bad hash is not at this pool.

The real danger is sending 1 ph a day in 'bad' rentals to f2pool    if f2pool fails to detect this they payout.

1 ph of dead hash to f2pool would cost them almost 9.4 coins a day

So attacking f2pool with 5 ph of bad hash  form 3 or 4 renting spots  could cost f2pool  a lot of coins.

 close to 50 coins a day.

If any one needs to be on guard it is f2pool.

If I rent 1 ph at 10 btc   paying a  3% fee to do so I get 9.7 btc  rental credit  and f2pool pay me 96% I get back 9.312 coins

 so I lose .688 btc   and I cost f2pool 9.312 btc a day

this is with 1ph of rentals so in 10 days I spend 6.88 btc  and f2pool pays 93.12 btc to me  which is a loss.


So of every pool in the world f2pool could lose more then any one.

I think spending 0.688 btc per day  to cost 9.312 btc in damage per day  to f2pool   might attract some people.

[NiceHashSupport]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

Well I have made 1 block with hash rented from nicehash .

I made it on www.mmpool.org

and to say we must trust the company renting hash to us to point to a pool in every case except a pool like f2pool is true.



 the real danger of renting bad hash is not at this pool.

The real danger is sending 1 ph a day in 'bad' rentals to f2pool    if f2pool fails to detect this they payout.

1 ph of dead hash to f2pool would cost them almost 9.4 coins a day

So attacking f2pool with 5 ph of bad hash  form 3 or 4 renting spots  could cost f2pool  a lot of coins.

 close to 50 coins a day.

If any one needs to be on guard it is f2pool.

If I rent 1 ph at 10 btc   paying a  3% fee to do so I get 9.7 btc  rental credit  and f2pool pay me 96% I get back 9.312 coins

 so I lose .688 btc   and I cost f2pool 9.312 btc a day

this is with 1ph of rentals so in 10 days I spend 6.88 btc  and f2pool pays 93.12 btc to me  which is a loss.


So of every pool in the world f2pool could lose more then any one.

I think spending 0.688 btc per day  to cost 9.312 btc in damage per day  to f2pool   might attract some people.

I wouldn't talk about this publicly, because you just gave an idea to anyone to possibly rent SHA256 hashpower via own proxy (that witholds block shares) and send the rest to the pool. It is probably one of the methods how to destroy big PPS pools (with very little input).

[loshia]

Shall we talk about all CLOSED SOURCE HARDWARE WITHOUT EXEPTIONS
Block withholding is a super way to max their profits even more..

[philipma1957]

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

Well I have made 1 block with hash rented from nicehash .

I made it on www.mmpool.org

and to say we must trust the company renting hash to us to point to a pool in every case except a pool like f2pool is true.



 the real danger of renting bad hash is not at this pool.

The real danger is sending 1 ph a day in 'bad' rentals to f2pool    if f2pool fails to detect this they payout.

1 ph of dead hash to f2pool would cost them almost 9.4 coins a day

So attacking f2pool with 5 ph of bad hash  form 3 or 4 renting spots  could cost f2pool  a lot of coins.

 close to 50 coins a day.

If any one needs to be on guard it is f2pool.

If I rent 1 ph at 10 btc   paying a  3% fee to do so I get 9.7 btc  rental credit  and f2pool pay me 96% I get back 9.312 coins

 so I lose .688 btc   and I cost f2pool 9.312 btc a day

this is with 1ph of rentals so in 10 days I spend 6.88 btc  and f2pool pays 93.12 btc to me  which is a loss.


So of every pool in the world f2pool could lose more then any one.

I think spending 0.688 btc per day  to cost 9.312 btc in damage per day  to f2pool   might attract some people.

I wouldn't talk about this publicly, because you just gave an idea to anyone to possibly rent SHA256 hashpower via own proxy (that witholds block shares) and send the rest to the pool. It is probably one of the methods how to destroy big PPS pools (with very little input).

   Well while some would say don't give anyone ideas.  This idea has been around here and there my guess is this is why very few PPS pools are around as this risk is there and is very hard to stop.   

A year ago   When the block withholding issues happened with  two large pools.  One was BTCguild I forget the other.  I pushed for good well known people to do solo pools like this one  since a solo pool is good protection from block withholding.   Ck started his up and while I have not hit a block with him I always have a 'real' miner pointed to him.

http://solo.ckpool.org/users/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje


 When I rent from nice/west hash to mine:
1)  here
2)  kano's pool
3)  f2pool
4)  antpool.

I always do 3 to 4 rentals  to get the total.  It does help with this 'dead' hash issue. I also use 2 workers at the pools.

[loshia]

Do you mean a real open sourced miner like spondo and others?
With buld firmware by you or someone who you trust?
To be honest 90  % of hardware runs like it is and nobody gives a shit what is going inside ....

[kano]

...
Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

But it is also an attack that does not benefit miner at all. Except very large farms to benefit from possible tiny bit lower difficulty. And the bigger the farm, the more chances such attack can be identified. We think there are not enough pros for any big farm to get into this and so far, we also have no proofs of any farm doing this so these claims are just pure speculations.

The claims are not speculation.
It is something that is easy to do and something that does have an effect on the pool being mined on.
... and on top of that, there have been cases of block withholding.
The most recent one was on Eligius where the person block withholding still was getting paid, but the rest of the miners were paying for it.

Another effect is also blatantly obvious and that is the effect on the pool's luck.
If a smaller pool has regular bad luck, guess what (yeah I'm sure this level of thinking is beyond your pay grade) that will turn miners away from the pool.

...
I wouldn't talk about this publicly, because you just gave an idea to anyone to possibly rent SHA256 hashpower via own proxy (that witholds block shares) and send the rest to the pool. It is probably one of the methods how to destroy big PPS pools (with very little input).

Block withholding is OLD news and been happening for a long time (years)