Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[Phinnaeus Gage]

http://www.slideshare.net/hudali15/stupidity-spawns-creativity

The Role of Stupidity in Society.

Ali Anani, PhD
Managing Partner/ Phenomena Communications
Is stupidity a bad thing always? Or, does it have a dual role and can be rewarding sometimes?Are societies destroyed by stupid fools or there is an indirect blessed role for stupidity? Do we need to change our perspective on stupidity?

I shall not be stupid by not acting on the kind invitation by Magdalena to start a discussion thread on this topic.

Dear Ali, I invite you to post this presentation, here, on The Social Capital.

If we are not going to stick to the topic then please let us at least discuss the idea of Social Capital. Maybe some good can come out of the stupidity on display here. A more open and clear dialogue can happen between the actual parties who have a stake in this venture versus those who are merely perpetuating story lines in order to have people focus on their issues and agendas and not the issues of those who are stakeholders.

Exactly, hence why I'm here.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

This is silly. If BA asked Verisilicon to disclose the fact of their agreement to anyone who asked, that would supersede the NDA. It makes sense that BA would ask them to do this specifically during this circumstance.  I'm sure if any one of Verisilicon's future customers saw this thread and asked, Verisilicon could produce documentation authorizing the disclosure of anything they said. As I said before, PG, I appreciate your efforts, but this is an empty rabbit hole you are looking down.

Thus, I've wasted a lot of energy looking into this, and nary a party will be harm in any way, for all have been vetted. Just wanted to be on record in stating such.

That said, I may be ending this crusade. I do respect/trust goosman96's efforts in all this.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

What really pisses me off is that I can't dispute this.  

EDIT: can should have been can't

[DebitMe]

Bobsag, I thought you would be sending out a mass email to your customers about the compensation package and other updates?  When was this going to happen?

[goozman96]

Bobsag, I thought you would be sending out a mass email to your customers about the compensation package and other updates?  When was this going to happen?

Waiting on this as well. We were told on Feb 9 to expect it to be done in 72 hours (3 days). It's been 120+ hours.

[goozman96]

Bobsag most likely not respond to any delay notices, because you already know of the delay...
I agree, that you would like something from him...  just hang tight, he does deliver at the end of the day.
i've sent him some emails in which he has not responded, at the end of the day, i found my answers else where.

What bothers me is that they keep saying they have fixed the problem and will reply to questions faster, but it never seems to be true. Why say the new accounts will be created in 72 hours when you know they won't be? Sigh...

[goozman96]

Bobsag most likely not respond to any delay notices, because you already know of the delay...
I agree, that you would like something from him...  just hang tight, he does deliver at the end of the day.
i've sent him some emails in which he has not responded, at the end of the day, i found my answers else where.

What bothers me is that they keep saying they have fixed the problem and will reply to questions faster, but it never seems to be true. Why say the new accounts will be created in 72 hours when you know they won't be? Sigh...

They've begun to post updates on their facebook page, and posted that in the coming weeks they would have emails being sent out. These updates on facebook began on Feb 12th, 72 hours after Feb 9th.

In addition to the posted: We will be vastly improving our CS, with a new Email System, Ticket system, imported database (sorry its taking so long!), Facebook / Twitter (Soon!) teams. We hope this will vastly improve our CS, and connect with our valuable customers. We will be having weekly updates from BA now posted to at least Facebook, with a Email Wide, and Twitter following in the next few weeks.

https://www.facebook.com/minersource

Hey,
Thanks, yes, I'm aware. I've had it set to receive notifications whenever a new post is made. How much longer do you think it will take?

Thanks.

[Pentax]

Hey Folks,

In an attempt to bring us back on track...

So,  what exactly needs to be done, if tapeout ends next friday,  and they need to get their miners shipped by May 1st? Can it all be done in 69 days?

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In electronics design, tape-out or tapeout is the final result of the design cycle for integrated circuits or printed circuit boards, the point at which the artwork for the photomask of a circuit is sent for manufacture.[1]

Some sources have indicated that the roots of the term can be traced back to the time when paper tape and later magnetic tape reels were loaded with the final electronic files used to create the photomask at the factory.[1] Other sources reference the early days of printed circuit design, when the enlarged (for higher precision) "artwork" for the photomask was manually "taped out" using black line tape and adhesive-backed die cut elements on sheets of PET film. Subsequently the artwork was photographically reduced.[2] A similar process was used for early integrated circuits.[3]

The term tapeout currently is used to describe the creation of the photomask itself from the final approved electronic CAD file. This stage is sometimes referred to as PG, for Pattern Generation. Designers may use this term to refer to the writing of the final file to disk or CD and its subsequent transmission to the foundry; however, in current practice the foundry will perform checks and make modifications to the mask design specific to the manufacturing process before actual tapeout. Optical proximity correction is an example of such an advanced mask modification; it corrects for the wave-like behavior of light when etching the nano scale features of the most modern integrated circuits.[1]

A modern IC has to go through a long and complex design process before it is ready for tape-out. Many of the steps along the way utilize software tools collectively known as electronic design automation (EDA). The design must then go through a series of verification steps collectively known as "signoff" before it can be taped-out. Tape-out is usually a cause for celebration by everyone who worked on the project, followed by trepidation awaiting the first article, the first physical samples of a chip from the manufacturing facility (semiconductor foundry).

The weeks before the tapeout are categorized as 'sleepless nights' in the parlance of IC Designers.

First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:

    The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
    The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests."

2: Go here and watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvluuAIiA50 This is the single most time consuming step left.

3; The little chips are sent to a company that will "package" them into a working ASIC "Minion" that you see represented on the BA web site.

4: While this is all happening BA is finishing the PCB boards these chips will be mounted on and final case design. Everything else is done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIsUJo-sGwEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9ybLGF1AkYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjs9KjAaRew

5: the rest is just simple assembly.

Is there enough time? Nobody can really say for sure but if everything goes well they should be able, but refer back to the "Tape out" artificial this is still the biggest area of concern at this time.

This to the best of my knowledge and may have left something out.

that looks about right.  when they get all this they then have to assemble it all.  

they've indicated, I think, that batch 1 and 2 will be dispatched at about the same time and that this will take a week or two.  what the plan is for benchmarking, quality testing etc., I don't know.  

maybe they can actually meet that goal, and then again maybe this is an optimistic estimate given to minimize the outcry and rush for refunds that would have ensued if theyd've told people this was looking like Junish or later.  This new timetable, with batch 1 and 2 rolling out May 1 also makes it seem as if meeting new orders will be no problem in just a couple of months time also, so hey folks, get those new orders in.  

they're running a business, so Job 1 is covering their own ass and turning as much profit as possible.  This is obvious with their compensation package for those of us dumb enough to fund this project with pre-orders.  They didn't even bother to explain the logic for that package, as far as I know.  I can't say I blame them, as nothing good lies down that path at this point.  Had they stepped up and made it right they could be trumpeting that from the hilltops and using it as a marketing tool, but they didn't, so it is seemingly best to try to sweep that into the past as quickly as possible.

We get lip service on how they're in this for the long term and how they care about their customers, but their actions tell a completely different story, as far as I'm concerned.

I take everything they say at this point with a grain of salt.  A giant, rock of gibralter sized, grain of salt.  They've proven, in my opinion, that they'll do what's best for them, at our expense if necessary, and that is not a group that gets blind trust any longer.

[goozman96]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

According to minersource, you would only get back the same number of coins you paid. So, you'd lose a lot of the value. Now, if the value of bitcoin was much higher right now, I think they'd probably be more than happy to give you back less coins to adjust for the current value. It's a lose-lose scenario.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

According to minersource, you would only get back the same number of coins you paid. So, you'd lose a lot of the value. Now, if the value of bitcoin was much higher right now, I think they'd probably be more than happy to give you back less coins to adjust for the current value. It's a lose-lose scenario.

I think the key here is how refunds were given in the past: If in BTC, then continue, likewise, if fiat...

[Pentax]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

you are assuming you'll get a refund.  I haven't seen an official statement on this forum that refund requests will be honored, nor heard from anyone that has successfully asked for, and received, a refund.

Of course I could be wrong, but all I've seen to date is for people that want refunds to submit a ticket.

Good luck.  and let us know how it turns out. 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

you are assuming you'll get a refund.  I haven't seen an official statement on this forum that refund requests will be honored, nor heard from anyone that has successfully asked for, and received, a refund.

Of course I could be wrong, but all I've seen to date is for people that want refunds to submit a ticket.

Good luck.  and let us know how it turns out. 

It should turn out fine, since there's resellers in place conducting the majority of the sales.

Miner orders from reseller; reseller orders from Black Arrow.
Miner request refund from reseller, and waits till they get to their particular ticket; Reseller submits refund to Black Arrow, and waits till they get to their particular ticket.
Black Arrow can't be sued for not providing a refund to miner because there's no order from them on their books.
All the actors have vetted one another, hence no concerns.
Now, quit spreading FUD, Pentax. The paradigm has swifted, whereupon most everybody wins, unless you're the...

[Pentax]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

you are assuming you'll get a refund.  I haven't seen an official statement on this forum that refund requests will be honored, nor heard from anyone that has successfully asked for, and received, a refund.

Of course I could be wrong, but all I've seen to date is for people that want refunds to submit a ticket.

Good luck.  and let us know how it turns out. 

It should turn out fine, since there's resellers in place conducting the majority of the sales.

Miner orders from reseller; reseller orders from Black Arrow.
Miner request refund from reseller, and waits till they get to their particular ticket; Reseller submits refund to Black Arrow, and waits till they get to their particular ticket.
Black Arrow can't be sued for not providing a refund to miner because there's no order from them on their books.
All the actors have vetted one another, hence no concerns.
Now, quit spreading FUD, Pentax. The paradigm has swifted, whereupon most everybody wins, unless you're the...

that's me.  head fudster. 

last I saw refunds were kinda up in the air.  to this point I have not seen an unequivocal statement one way or the other.

I have not read every post in this thread, nor all them on BA's forum, however, last update I saw was that they were reviewing if they could issue refunds from their margin or some such thing.

Now we all know that margin must be razor thin, what with this well developed and mature market that has had it's margins reduced to shavings of pennies by rabid competition for many years, right?  mmmhmmmm....  Pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical on that particular issue.

seeing as this issue of refunds is a primary concern in all of this for a lot of people I  do wonder why a clear statement hasn't been made.  If it has, I've missed it, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

you are assuming you'll get a refund.  I haven't seen an official statement on this forum that refund requests will be honored, nor heard from anyone that has successfully asked for, and received, a refund.

Of course I could be wrong, but all I've seen to date is for people that want refunds to submit a ticket.

Good luck.  and let us know how it turns out. 

It should turn out fine, since there's resellers in place conducting the majority of the sales.

Miner orders from reseller; reseller orders from Black Arrow.
Miner request refund from reseller, and waits till they get to their particular ticket; Reseller submits refund to Black Arrow, and waits till they get to their particular ticket.
Black Arrow can't be sued for not providing a refund to miner because there's no order from them on their books.
All the actors have vetted one another, hence no concerns.
Now, quit spreading FUD, Pentax. The paradigm has swifted, whereupon most everybody wins, unless you're the...

that's me.  head fudster. 

last I saw refunds were kinda up in the air.  to this point I have not seen an unequivocal statement one way or the other.

I have not read every post in this thread, nor all them on BA's forum, however, last update I saw was that they were reviewing if they could issue refunds from their margin or some such thing.

Now we all know that margin must be razor thin, what with this well developed and mature market that has had it's margins reduced to shavings of pennies by rabid competition for many years, right?  mmmhmmmm....  Pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical on that particular issue.

seeing as this issue of refunds is a primary concern in all of this for a lot of people I  do wonder why a clear statement hasn't been made.  If it has, I've missed it, so maybe I'm wrong.

I remember post after post about how you guys would not be affected by the CNY, care to comment why "most of the staff" had off when you previously said it wouldn't affect you guys?

Also since a yes or no answer was never given, will minersource be giving refunds, yes or no?

Minersource cannot issue refunds as they have paid us for your miners.

We're currently making a list with the refund requests to see if we can refund from our margin. Note that our margin is quite low as we have charged our customers $4000 on a miner while others have charged $16000 on the same hardware during the same period.

As we've announced, we've put the ASICs into production and they've been paid in full. Canceling the ASIC now is not possible as we will incur around 85 to 95% penalty so we're left in refunding only from our margin.

There's always another way one could request a refund if they don't mind a 10% restocking fee for wasting their time: Claim your order was part of group buy, whereupon since they always abide by their ToS, a refund will be granted.

Group buys: Group buys are not permitted. We will cancel any order that we discover that is a group buy and will refund the payment minus 10% that we will charge for our time wasted in this matter. By placing an order for this item you agree with the above.

[bitterdog]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

you are assuming you'll get a refund.  I haven't seen an official statement on this forum that refund requests will be honored, nor heard from anyone that has successfully asked for, and received, a refund.

Of course I could be wrong, but all I've seen to date is for people that want refunds to submit a ticket.

Good luck.  and let us know how it turns out. 

It should turn out fine, since there's resellers in place conducting the majority of the sales.

Miner orders from reseller; reseller orders from Black Arrow.
Miner request refund from reseller, and waits till they get to their particular ticket; Reseller submits refund to Black Arrow, and waits till they get to their particular ticket.
Black Arrow can't be sued for not providing a refund to miner because there's no order from them on their books.
All the actors have vetted one another, hence no concerns.
Now, quit spreading FUD, Pentax. The paradigm has swifted, whereupon most everybody wins, unless you're the...

If you Vette me, I will vette you also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNNYxenJCqc

[goozman96]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

According to minersource, you would only get back the same number of coins you paid. So, you'd lose a lot of the value. Now, if the value of bitcoin was much higher right now, I think they'd probably be more than happy to give you back less coins to adjust for the current value. It's a lose-lose scenario.

WTF, is that true? I haven't written a single bad word about BA/minersource but if this is true it's that's just a scam by bobsag3. What a scumbag

Refunds in BTC are the best way to go. You gave someone 2 BTC, your refund should be 2 BTC.

Yes, but that's not the case. You think bobsag3 would refund your btc if they were worth 2k?

I have no idea if he would. He should. These companies shouldn't be treated as currency exchanges. You buy in dollars you should be refunded in the same dollars. You buy in BTC you should be refunded in BTC.

That'd be fine if the BTC price they charge was static; instead, it fluctuates with the current exchange rate. So... they're basing it off of the dollar when they decide how many BTC to charge you.

[goozman96]

Would you also be okay with them refunding less bitcoins if the price was higher right now compared to when the purchase was made?

[goozman96]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

According to minersource, you would only get back the same number of coins you paid. So, you'd lose a lot of the value. Now, if the value of bitcoin was much higher right now, I think they'd probably be more than happy to give you back less coins to adjust for the current value. It's a lose-lose scenario.

WTF, is that true? I haven't written a single bad word about BA/minersource but if this is true it's that's just a scam by bobsag3. What a scumbag

Refunds in BTC are the best way to go. You gave someone 2 BTC, your refund should be 2 BTC.

Yes, but that's not the case. You think bobsag3 would refund your btc if they were worth 2k?

I have no idea if he would. He should. These companies shouldn't be treated as currency exchanges. You buy in dollars you should be refunded in the same dollars. You buy in BTC you should be refunded in BTC.

That'd be fine if the BTC price they charge was static; instead, it fluctuates with the current exchange rate. So... they're basing it off of the dollar when they decide how many BTC to charge you.

I'm ok with that. If I don't like the price (be it dollars or BTC) I don't have to 'buy'. This is just my opinion and probably isn't worth .02 :-)

You don't understand that Bob is shafting you either way? Btc worth 500 = you get your 6 btc back that you paid for an x-3 when price was higher.

Btc 2k? Sure, I'll refund you! Since price have doubled you will only get 3 btc though.. *sorry*

Completely disgusting scam

There's no proof for that, but I'm pretty confident that that's how it would go, as well. They want it both ways. (As evidenced in the Hashfast refund issues)

[goozman96]

There's no proof for that, but I'm pretty confident that that's how it would go, as well. They want it both ways. (As evidenced in the Hashfast refund issues)

I'm not trying to defend anyone against anything but I think we have a few months to go before we enter Hashfast Territory, in any sense, if at all.

Yeah, at least we've got proof of impending tapeout.

[OleOle]

Which they totally put on ignore 

Lol! Yeah, I think everything is on ignore with BA, especially customers and delivery deadlines.