[Emergency ANN] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation

[Crypt_Current]

if you're GP, you're automatically granted the right to say anything you wish;
if you're not the GP, you're automatically granted the right to leave Bitcoinica as you wish (and you said you wanted to).

Dude is SO WICKED with gotchas.  Fucking brilliant.

If you think the whole issue is troubling you, here's my offer:

I'll resolve the whole thing for Bitcoinica, for free. As long as Donald, Amir and Patrick are no longer involved in the dispute resolution. You're free to re-develop the site and re-launch if you wish. I just want my customers to get their money back (if your user ID is less than 4500, I'll definitely make sure you get your money back). And the dispute resolution team is not working in a way that matches my standards. This has caused severe reputation damage to me personally.

You can do whatever you want afterwards, and you get all the future proceeds. I'll resolve everything for Bitcoinica LP in a professional way. If you can't make decisions, forward this offer to your decision-maker.

EDIT:

I provide this offer because I'm suffering from reputation damage, and there's definitely no benefit in arguing with you. I'm arguing because I can't do anything to make the situation better, so I should teach you how to do PR and damage control.

Well alright then.  I sure could use that money, like now.  Pretty please.  

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[N12]

the dispute resolution team is not working in a way that matches my standards.

Says the guy who codes a financial platform in 4 days and passes it on to some clueless bagholder.

I fully agree with you, Vladimir. 50 minimum.

[repentance]

And don't expect anyone to take "Bitcoinica Consultancy" seriously while you're choosing to hide behind a screen name.  When shit gets real, people need more than a screen-name and an email address.  They need the name and the contact details of the person who's making the statements they're being asked to believe.  You're not fucking Anonymous.  Stop hiding behind "we" and put your real name and your precise role in this whole clusterfuck to your posts.  You can't establish credibility when no-one knows who the fuck you are and your exact financial and legal relationship with Bitcoinica.

[arby]

+1

Waiting for Zhou to start returning the money, as he previously stated.

On a side note, I have a feeling Zhou was not really happy that Team Intersango took over, but its nice to watch such nice promises, you people start to sound like Obama, and Romney.

Maybe add on bitcoinica.com a status update, or maybe a list on how much you returned until now, etc, the wait is really annoying for people.

Up until now, I can not really decide who is to blame, but I think maybe everybody should calm down, this is not fixing anything, act a bit mature I guess? Pointing fingers is not going to solve it, also I think the
'hacker' is enjoying the show.

if you're GP, you're automatically granted the right to say anything you wish;
if you're not the GP, you're automatically granted the right to leave Bitcoinica as you wish (and you said you wanted to).

Dude is SO WICKED with gotchas.  Fucking brilliant.

If you think the whole issue is troubling you, here's my offer:

I'll resolve the whole thing for Bitcoinica, for free. As long as Donald, Amir and Patrick are no longer involved in the dispute resolution. You're free to re-develop the site and re-launch if you wish. I just want my customers to get their money back (if your user ID is less than 4500, I'll definitely make sure you get your money back). And the dispute resolution team is not working in a way that matches my standards. This has caused severe reputation damage to me personally.

You can do whatever you want afterwards, and you get all the future proceeds. I'll resolve everything for Bitcoinica LP in a professional way. If you can't make decisions, forward this offer to your decision-maker.

EDIT:

I provide this offer because I'm suffering from reputation damage, and there's definitely no benefit in arguing with you. I'm arguing because I can't do anything to make the situation better, so I should teach you how to do PR and damage control.

Well alright then.  I sure could use that money, like now.  Pretty please.  

[zhoutong]

+1

Waiting for Zhou to start returning the money, as he previously stated.

On a side note, I have a feeling Zhou was not really happy that Team Intersango took over, but its nice to watch such nice promises, you people start to sound like Obama, and Romney.

Maybe add on bitcoinica.com a status update, or maybe a list on how much you returned until now, etc, the wait is really annoying for people.

if you're GP, you're automatically granted the right to say anything you wish;
if you're not the GP, you're automatically granted the right to leave Bitcoinica as you wish (and you said you wanted to).

Dude is SO WICKED with gotchas.  Fucking brilliant.

If you think the whole issue is troubling you, here's my offer:

I'll resolve the whole thing for Bitcoinica, for free. As long as Donald, Amir and Patrick are no longer involved in the dispute resolution. You're free to re-develop the site and re-launch if you wish. I just want my customers to get their money back (if your user ID is less than 4500, I'll definitely make sure you get your money back). And the dispute resolution team is not working in a way that matches my standards. This has caused severe reputation damage to me personally.

You can do whatever you want afterwards, and you get all the future proceeds. I'll resolve everything for Bitcoinica LP in a professional way. If you can't make decisions, forward this offer to your decision-maker.

EDIT:

I provide this offer because I'm suffering from reputation damage, and there's definitely no benefit in arguing with you. I'm arguing because I can't do anything to make the situation better, so I should teach you how to do PR and damage control.

Well alright then.  I sure could use that money, like now.  Pretty please.  

I made a mistake not to advise the previous owner to stop the negotiation. I only asked him to check their actual technical abilities.

But well, it's already passed so I shouldn't say anything or blame anyone. There are some vulnerabilities with my code, and they fixed that very quickly, which is a very good thing anyway. So I kept silent on the issue.

If I had any control: I would like Patrick to be in the team. Donald should resign. Amir didn't involve much so I don't make any judgement.

[zhoutong]

let me make a point clear in case you dont get this

I dont give a f**k about your blame game, I want my money back and if you feel the need to throw s**t at each other make a f**king thread about that

I know your feeling.

I actually LOL'd when I see the mess I'm creating. That's a better language skill exercise than any essays written in school.

I'm not out of mind though. Just that the whole thing is quite funny if I look back. :-D

[arby]

And on another side note, about pointing fingers, shit happens some times, and you really can not avoid this all the time.

WHMCS.com was "hacked" recently for example using the same method it seems:

It is rumoured and believed that Matt’s email account was hacked and hence the hackers gained access to the server details and the Twitter account at the same time. Nothing has been done so far to get the twitter account back, although WHMCS is back online after being hacked and defaced with a DDoS attack.

I do not believe that guy is not professional, or lacks technical skills.

[zhoutong]

And on another side note, about pointing fingers, shit happens some times, and you really can not avoid this all the time.

WHMCS.com was hacked for example using the same method it seems:

It is rumoured and believed that Matt’s email account was hacked and hence the hackers gained access to the server details and the Twitter account at the same time. Nothing has been done so far to get the twitter account back, although WHMCS is back online after being hacked and defaced with a DDoS attack.

I do not believe that guy is not professional, or lacks technical skills.

Yes, I always think that's unavoidable. This should be obvious to any technical person.

That's why I initially claimed that one of our team members' email server was compromised, not even mentioning the name (but I knew it). I only clarified when there are overwhelming requests for more information.

My attitude has always been:

Everyone has a part in the problem. I don't blame anyone. But blaming me for everything is wrong. Not allowing me to clarify truths is wrong. Claiming that I'm lying without evidence is wrong. Saying that I'm the trouble-maker when the root cause is not me is wrong.

Only if the dispute resolution team can do things more quickly, I'm fine with being personally liable for everything and continue being the "assumed responsible person". But they are even hiding the corporate details from me now! (They said I was lying while I only gave the information I had. It must mean that the information has changed.)

[Bitcoinica Consultancy]

We will take what Zhou has proposed into consideration and discuss it with relevant parties. The issues of misrepresentation were not amenable despite numerous talks. Our silence was called into question the same time we were being misrepresented. Despite our best efforts this was unavoidable. We apologise but we are happy that Zhou has stated many things which, if there is full disclosure, will be shown to be lies and misrepresentations.

With full disclosure I believe our actions will be understood. Without full disclosure, our reputation may remain damaged. If that is the case at least we can say we spoke up.

[Vladimir]

Certification of Incorporation: http://www.societies.govt.nz/scanned-images/17/BC10060962017.pdf

Application for registration of a Limited Partnership: http://www.societies.govt.nz/scanned-images/06/BC10060962006.pdf

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3715077

http://www.linkedin.com/in/cheaslip

So general partner is Core Credit Limited, with accountant as probably nomini director. Very shady if so.

By law, details of limited partners are private.

So it is basically a limited partnership with a limited company as General Partner having it seems a sole nomini director AND a sole nomini shareholder. And who knows how many limited companies in how many jurisdictions are below that. These guys are well prepared for any (civil) legal assault and any civil case would be pointless.

Why such a shady corporate setup guys?

What are you hiding there?

Do you think this is acceptable for such a company to hold USD and BTC deposits taken from general public?

[arby]

That's why I initially claimed that one of our team members' email server was compromised, not even mentioning the name (but I knew it). I only clarified when there are overwhelming requests for more information.

I think this was a mistake, because it was your team. I know probably you wanted to help your customers, but in the long run this only managed to destroy both your and intersangos reputation, created a lot of panic, and also allowed agitators (the competiton, and haters) to cause problems.

I think also this is why they are now hiding details from you, because you are not a team player any more.

And on another side note, about pointing fingers, shit happens some times, and you really can not avoid this all the time.

WHMCS.com was hacked for example using the same method it seems:

It is rumoured and believed that Matt’s email account was hacked and hence the hackers gained access to the server details and the Twitter account at the same time. Nothing has been done so far to get the twitter account back, although WHMCS is back online after being hacked and defaced with a DDoS attack.

I do not believe that guy is not professional, or lacks technical skills.

Yes, I always think that's unavoidable. This should be obvious to any technical person.

That's why I initially claimed that one of our team members' email server was compromised, not even mentioning the name (but I knew it). I only clarified when there are overwhelming requests for more information.

My attitude has always been:

Everyone has a part in the problem. I don't blame anyone. But blaming me for everything is wrong. Not allowing me to clarify truths is wrong. Claiming that I'm lying without evidence is wrong. Saying that I'm the trouble-maker when the root cause is not me is wrong.

Only if the dispute resolution team can do things more quickly, I'm fine with being personally liable for everything and continue being the "assumed responsible person". But they are even hiding the corporate details from me now! (They said I was lying while I only gave the information I had. It must mean that the information has changed.)

[naima53]

I'm pretty sure this will end once Tihan gets a call...

ha-ha! I will make a statement (assumption) by ~ 30 min. But first I need to read up to the end of the whole topic (fucking slow)

[muyuu]

Looks like shit got real uh? is someone making backups?

LOL, Zhou is running a pro PR campain here (and winning this little PR war). Bravo! Something to learn for many parties involved.

Helps when you have truth, goodwill and honesty on your side:)

Indeed! If he does not have non-competition agreement. Zhou could should develop a new Bitcoinica in the next 4 days and many people would transfer deposits from old Bitcoinica to new one at the first opportunity.

Wait. What? Would people do that? Would you? Knowing all we know about what happened?

Wow... people  

[zhoutong]

We will take what Zhou has proposed into consideration and discuss it with relevant parties. The issues of misrepresentation were not amenable despite numerous talks. Our silence was called into question the same time we were being misrepresented. Despite our best efforts this was unavoidable. We apologise but we are happy that Zhou has stated many things which, if there is full disclosure, will be shown to be lies and misrepresentations.

With full disclosure I believe our actions will be understood. Without full disclosure, our reputation may remain damaged. If that is the case at least we can say we spoke up.

I have no knowledge of the "full disclosure" you're mentioning. So I shouldn't comment on it either.

As I'm officially out of the dispute resolution process, these are the things we know:

1. I play no part in Bitcoinica. If you get your money late, it's Bitcoinica Consultancy's fault. You're unlikely to never get the money because they are not paying the bills anyway (so they aren't able to screw up on the financial side).
2. We have all seen how Bitcoinica Consultancy has handled the issue in the entire process. You should make your own judgement in your future business with them. (Disclaimer: I provide no advise.)
3. I have some funds in my own Bitcoinica account and I have filed the claim. I will take legal actions against Bitcoinica LP if my claim cannot be processed within 30 days.

[mahingupta]

We will take what Zhou has proposed into consideration and discuss it with relevant parties. The issues of misrepresentation were not amenable despite numerous talks. Our silence was called into question the same time we were being misrepresented. Despite our best efforts this was unavoidable. We apologise but we are happy that Zhou has stated many things which, if there is full disclosure, will be shown to be lies and misrepresentations.

With full disclosure I believe our actions will be understood. Without full disclosure, our reputation may remain damaged. If that is the case at least we can say we spoke up.

I have no knowledge of the "full disclosure" you're mentioning. So I shouldn't comment on it either.

As I'm officially out of the dispute resolution process, these are the things we know:

1. I play no part in Bitcoinica. If you get your money late, it's Bitcoinica Consultancy's fault. You're unlikely to never get the money because they are not paying the bills anyway (so they aren't able to screw up on the financial side).
2. We have all seen how Bitcoinica Consultancy has handled the issue in the entire process. You should make your own judgement in your future business with them. (Disclaimer: I provide no advise.)
3. I have some funds in my own Bitcoinica account and I have filed the claim. I will take legal actions against Bitcoinica LP if my claim cannot be processed within 30 days.

This is going to Hawana now...

[repentance]

We will take what Zhou has proposed into consideration and discuss it with relevant parties. The issues of misrepresentation were not amenable despite numerous talks. Our silence was called into question the same time we were being misrepresented. Despite our best efforts this was unavoidable. We apologise but we are happy that Zhou has stated many things which, if there is full disclosure, will be shown to be lies and misrepresentations.

With full disclosure I believe our actions will be understood. Without full disclosure, our reputation may remain damaged. If that is the case at least we can say we spoke up.

I swear to god that your posts sound like the robotic non-responses which the "MtGox Support" account posts - and they're just as infuriating.  Do your organisation a huge favour and get someone who can write plain English to compose your forum posts.

Nobody cares about you.  They care only about where the buck stops in terms of recovering their money and they want to hear from the person responsible for that - not some nameless, faceless intermediary.  If the shadowy owners aren't prepared to reveal themselves, then they need to have their lawyer or their accountant in here speaking for them, not a screen-name with no identity and no authority.

I think also this is why they are now hiding details from you, because you are not a team player any more.

Pontius Pilate was a team player.  The "team" purposely hid the change of ownership from Bitcoinica customers.  They still refuse to answer questions about who now owns Bitcoinica and they absolutely deserve any suspicion and negative assumptions their deception has created.  Do you really think they would have hidden this information if they thought the Bitcoin community would embrace the new owners?

[Bitcoinica Consultancy]

1. Unfortunately Zhou himself has delayed greatly the reclaim process.
2. We hope that users wait until there is more disclosure to judge what has happened.
3. We do apologise for the turn this discourse has taken. However, we hope to show how important this disclosure is and our dissatisfaction with how things were being handled and continue to be handled.

[arby]

I do not think it is up to them to disclose who the owner is, that would be really irresponsible? Would you like your employees going around and disclosing personal information about you? If you sign an agreement, and then you decide not to follow it, why would anyone trust you after that? You need to use the same standards when analysing any situation, not just particular cases.

The owner I think decides such things, and not the employees, and I understand they are just working there, not actually owning the company, its basically not their money.

Pontius Pilate was a team player.  The "team" purposely hid the change of ownership from Bitcoinica customers.  They still refuse to answer questions about who now owns Bitcoinica and they absolutely deserve any suspicion and negative assumptions their deception has created.  Do you really think they would have hidden this information if they thought the Bitcoin community would embrace the new owners?

[MemoryDealers]

Bitcoinica Consultancy,

At this point,  I suspect most Bitcoinica users would prefer to see the claim process turned over to Zhou.
He gave you a very generous offer.  He takes care of everything,  while you just have to sit back and watch.

I don't see what reason you would have to not take him up on his offer.

[realnowhereman]

Edited to add:

1. Unfortunately Zhou himself has delayed greatly the reclaim process.

How exactly has someone who reportedly has no access, done that?  Are you claiming he has deleted data?  I can't see any other way in which he could delay the claims process.

2. We hope that users wait until there is more disclosure to judge what has happened.

You seem to think we, at present, care one jot about disclosure.  What difference will it make to us and our access to our money if you were all to publish your chat logs right now?  Answer: none.

You are being judged on the number of days that go by without access to our money; without explanation of why we have no access to our money; and without statements of facts.  You addition of mud slinging is making neither you nor Zhoutong (despite what he might think about restoring his reputation) look good.

3. We do apologise for the turn this discourse has taken. However, we hope to show how important this disclosure is and our dissatisfaction with how things were being handled and continue to be handled.

Apologies imply regret; regret implies a wish that something hadn't happened; and yet you continue this public mud slinging.  The pair of you seem to know nothing about professionalism.  Customers are allowed to be noisy, ignorant, irrational pigs.  Professional companies are not.

See below for the questions you should be answering.



By "we want information", we didn't mean we wanted to see your internal squabbles over who's fault it all is, and who signed what piece of paper.  Go and get some lawyers and a court case and sort it out between yourselves.

What we want to know is:

• Whether you have a database backup?
• Whether you have control of the remaining 'cold wallet' deposits?
• Whether you have control of the remaining USD deposits
• How much of the customer-owned funds are left?
• Why is the claim process taking so long?  We all still know our passwords and if you've got a copy of the hashes of those passwords, we can ID ourselves.  Surely a small web page to let us log in and look at our balances is about a days work?  Even if we can't withdraw them yet?
• What is the name of the person or persons (not a shell company) responsible for Bitcoinica's debts?  Note: the person responsible for the damned I.T. cupboard is an internal matter of your own.

These are simple factual questions.  They require no mud to be slung and revealing them can't possibly be covered in an NDA, since the NDA wouldn't have predicted this theft.