GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[KC6TTR]

The entire US and western European cryptocurrency mining market is not large enough to support the vaaaAAAAaaaast number of users Mr. HashTitan is claiming to have in "his" house and we all know he does not command a 100% market share so any reasonable person can conclude he has no idea what is talking about. 

Likewise, CCN is so obviously in the back pocket of Mr. HashTitan, it is a not even funny anymore. Seriously, who does this Scott guy (nope, not me! ) think he is fooling? I believe all this paid-for PR is reaching deaf ears at this stage.

The REAL Scott- 

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[jimmothy]

But even with their SHA256 hashpower, has anyone made any attempt to track the origins of the bitcoins paid out, and where the block was generated and relayed?

I have tried and it's pretty much hopeless.

They've clearly put a ton of effort in to making it as hard to track as possible.

It looks sort of like an exchange (creating a new address for each tx) however unlike an exchange I cannot find the source of the funds because the btc is forwarded through hundreds if not thousands of addresses after the origin (of which I haven't found).

Feel free to click away and if you do eventually find the origin, please do share.

[Vannicke]

In my boredom, I've gotten to a few hours ago of this bitcoin that got passed around for the payouts I assume.  I'm up from the 7 you got your bit from to 33, I had hoped at 25 I'd have found the generation, but I guess not ... oh well, boredom continues.

[Singman33]

I can confirm that i'm shadow banned..

I've been a member of Hashtalk for a few months now, always been helpful and respectful i think.
I've been doing translations of each of Josh announcements in french for a few french members who had difficulties with english.
I reported several bugs to Eric from Zenminer instead of abusing it (and trust me i could had made a lot of money from exploiting these), even got a bounty for that and Eric telling me that he appreciated my honesty.

And today i just asked a legit question in a respectful and non-agressive manner after noticing what happened to be a typo and got shadow banned for that...

wow..just wow..

C'est la vie ! Josh is paranoid.
Bon courage pour la suite

[Vannicke]

Well, it was a wallet that had 117 Bitcoin in it 8 hours ago, and passed the change around as it paid out that 117 bitcoin down to the 7 that your payout came from.  So the wallet simply seemed to have had only one input to use, since it put the change in every transaction from the original 117BTC.  (this took a few thousand clicks)

I landed here: https://blockchain.info/address/1CMzmz9DjVLU7BpR8t912BE27LrAG6NtBB

Since every single address had only one incoming and one outgoing transaction, they all came from the same wallet as the wallet paid a payout and made change to itself.

One of the inputs has an address linking to here: https://p2pwallet.cc/wallet

Following the transactions just back a little further, I land here: https://blockchain.info/address/18Yrkm5cRqT1MiqwAUBDcN64hWb1pLutsW

The above account has total inputs of over 24,000 BTC.


A very related account: https://blockchain.info/address/1P62VZZ9kL97dzzcWhG7JZDssaW2MDgn82

This account also has transaction volume of just over 24,000 BTC.

The two are first seen September 26 and 27th, 2014.

I have verified that this must be GAWMiner's wallet, because YOUR payout comes from it, AND a few recent transactions from MY wallet of 2.5BTC sent to zenminer a few days ago takes only 1 jump into it.

I haven't dug very far yet, but now that I know they have moved about 24,000 BTC with this account, linking my input bitcoin to your output bitcoin, the generated coin can't be far away.  If I can't find it, and your payout essentially comes from an account that has MY most recent pay in, I'm getting my ass out of GAWminers.

[Singman33]

But what about ZeusHash? It does not  follow everyone else curves either? What does that mean? And it is even worse than GAW.

ZeusHash got a bug during a few days with their fees. That explain the erratic part at start of the graph.

[suchmoon]

Well, it was a wallet that had 117 Bitcoin in it 8 hours ago, and passed the change around as it paid out that 117 bitcoin down to the 7 that your payout came from.  So the wallet simply seemed to have had only one input to use, since it put the change in every transaction from the original 117BTC.  (this took a few thousand clicks)

I landed here: https://blockchain.info/address/1CMzmz9DjVLU7BpR8t912BE27LrAG6NtBB

Since every single address had only one incoming and one outgoing transaction, they all came from the same wallet as the wallet paid a payout and made change to itself.

One of the inputs has an address linking to here: https://p2pwallet.cc/wallet

Following the transactions just back a little further, I land here: https://blockchain.info/address/18Yrkm5cRqT1MiqwAUBDcN64hWb1pLutsW

The above account has total inputs of over 24,000 BTC.  I'm investigating to see what I find.

They could have put it trough a coin mixer. Or just bought some BTC on an exchange. You might be following the wrong path by now.

Another option would be to track deposits into ZenCloud and see where they end up. Should be some kind of cold wallet eventually, and perhaps there are some interesting links to/from it.

But overall the chance of finding anything that way is very low I think.

[Vannicke]

Once I got to the 24,000 BTC throughput accounts, I checked my own transaction TO zenminer, and from the address that credits my account, it went DIRECTLY to the 1P6 address ... I have yet to find any indication that any mined income is actually going into that address, I have only found small multisender transactions that appear to be bitcoin sends.

This is looking really sketch, but I'm trying to keep an open mind that their mined income might be flowing into those two addresses somewhere I can't find.

It's super late again though, and I have to sleep at some point.  I'm going to hunt this down tomorrow.

I want evidence there is mining going on with at least bitcoin.  I invite anyone with eyes that aren't falling shut to hunt the inputs of this address for the huge income a 3+PH/s mining farm must be generating.

GAWMiners address from which jimmothy was paid, and I paid in: https://blockchain.info/address/1P62VZZ9kL97dzzcWhG7JZDssaW2MDgn82

[jimmothy]

Well, it was a wallet that had 117 Bitcoin in it 8 hours ago, and passed the change around as it paid out that 117 bitcoin down to the 7 that your payout came from.  So the wallet simply seemed to have had only one input to use, since it put the change in every transaction from the original 117BTC.

I landed here: https://blockchain.info/address/1CMzmz9DjVLU7BpR8t912BE27LrAG6NtBB

One of the inputs has an adress linking to here: https://p2pwallet.cc/wallet

Being unable to take anything at face value I had to follow the coins for myself and a whopping 30 minutes later I came to the same wallet.

I don't think the p2pwallet payment is important being that it's only $0.02. (could just be blockchain advertising)

But from that address it's only a few more hops until you reach 18Yrkm5cRqT1MiqwAUBDcN64hWb1pLutsW which receives it's BTC from 1P62VZZ9kL97dzzcWhG7JZDssaW2MDgn82.

Following the trail I noticed that there are tons of addresses receiving miniscule amounts of btc (less than 0.0005).

This seemed strange considering the withdrawal fee is 0.0001 so I decided to follow the btc.

Look at these addresses:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FvFfnuMxYnaiKMBuRNdcEYkPoQMGx7Cg5
https://blockchain.info/address/1MCGWXnKEgKCSfmZcK67gg1k3gWdbwhfvK
https://blockchain.info/address/1CqBSkWkoxRJv1YMxZVkn2G2iMHxGva7RF
https://blockchain.info/address/1M6m9Lh9XtYsKbfPYcm7Bm9FJ186FJZU9d
https://blockchain.info/address/18iTDLS7qT72KkWXC9s8bWfe8cTu7vnQ1o
https://blockchain.info/address/19LusNnuBSaK9P1w18aXboqHeuPyhHEob4

You will notice they have all have two things in common, they all receive BTC from GAW, and they send transactions with large groups of inputs which also received btc from GAW.

For example look at https://blockchain.info/address/1CqBSkWkoxRJv1YMxZVkn2G2iMHxGva7RF

Most of the payments were ~0.0002 btc which means they paid 1/3rd of their earnings in transaction fees. (GAWcharges 0.0001 btc per withdrawal)

I asked myself why would anyone (or what looks like multiple people) want to waste 33% of their earnings to spread out the btc over multiple addresses, only to later combine the btc and send it to a single address.

The conclusion I came to was that no rational person would do this.

So who would do this and why?

The only explanation I can think of is that the suspicious transactions/addresses are all fake in order to make following the BTC very difficult and/or make it seem like a shitload of people are using GAW's service.

To test this theory I decided to see if any of the btc made a full loop and sure enough it did.

If you go to the origin address https://blockchain.info/address/1P62VZZ9kL97dzzcWhG7JZDssaW2MDgn82

First you will notice that none of the received btc originate from mining.

Second you will notice that the BTC 1P6 receives comes from a shit ton of addresses which received their BTC from none other than 1P6.

TLDR:

- No BTC originating from mining
- hundreds of fake addresses receiving payouts which are almost immediately sent back to the origin address

[jimmothy]

Once I got to the 24,000 BTC throughput accounts, I checked my own transaction TO zenminer, and from the address that credits my account, it went DIRECTLY to the 1P6 address ... I have yet to find any indication that any mined income is actually going into that address, I have only found small multisender transactions that appear to be bitcoin sends.

I was just about to ask if anyone could post their payment txid to see if the btc ends up in that wallet.

It really doesn't make sense to send new customer payments directly to their payout address unless they are a ponzi.

If they were legit then BTC payments should be being sent to an exchange, converted to dollars, and then used to purchase hardware/electricity/etc.

[Oldminer]

Just opened another ticket on GAW because they closed my previous ticket w/o resolving it.

My new ticket reads:

"What are you guys doing closing my ticket when you havent resolved it??
I have a multi hashlet that I would like to split and sell & I raised a ticket 2 mths ago about this issue & you still havent fixed it!. Sort it out & DONT close my ticket until you do! Get Josh in to fix if you have to - Im sick of this shit."

All I want to do is split & sell my last hashlet & GTFO off their site. Its not too much to ask. Useless...

[Flep182]

If they were legit then BTC payments should be being sent to an exchange, converted to dollars, and then used to purchase hardware/electricity/etc.

Not per se. If they have 1 Petahash running on SHA-256 and have only sold half of it, every new sale could be used to payout in BTC for new customers as the hardware/costs have already been paid.
If you're a one man operation with your own hardware it makes sense to send BTC to an exchange if you need that to pay for electric. But if you have fiat at hand to pay without the need to convert BTC the "cycle" is broken. Considering that GAW has thousands of streams of coins (whether btc or fiat or else) chances that your payout is going to be converted to USD to pay for new hardware are small.

[jimmothy]

If they were legit then BTC payments should be being sent to an exchange, converted to dollars, and then used to purchase hardware/electricity/etc.

Not per se. If they have 1 Petahash running on SHA-256 and have only sold half of it, every new sale could be used to payout in BTC for new customers as the hardware/costs have already been paid.
If you're a one man operation with your own hardware it makes sense to send BTC to an exchange if you need that to pay for electric. But if you have fiat at hand to pay without the need to convert BTC the "cycle" is broken. Considering that GAW has thousands of streams of coins (whether btc or fiat or else) chances that your payout is going to be converted to USD to pay for new hardware are small.

GAW doesn't have "thousands of streams", it all comes from mining ltc and/or btc. There are no other coins that can support the amount of hashrate they claim.

In your example, if they had 1 PH/s and sold half they would immediately convert the payment to USD and buy another 0.75 PH/s to sell.

It makes no sense to keep the payment and use it to payout mining earnings.

[Flep182]

If they were legit then BTC payments should be being sent to an exchange, converted to dollars, and then used to purchase hardware/electricity/etc.

Not per se. If they have 1 Petahash running on SHA-256 and have only sold half of it, every new sale could be used to payout in BTC for new customers as the hardware/costs have already been paid.
If you're a one man operation with your own hardware it makes sense to send BTC to an exchange if you need that to pay for electric. But if you have fiat at hand to pay without the need to convert BTC the "cycle" is broken. Considering that GAW has thousands of streams of coins (whether btc or fiat or else) chances that your payout is going to be converted to USD to pay for new hardware are small.

GAW doesn't have "thousands of streams", it all comes from mining ltc and/or btc. There are no other coins that can support the amount of hashrate they claim.

In your example, if they had 1 PH/s and sold half they would immediately convert the payment to USD and buy another 0.75 PH/s to sell.

It makes no sense to keep the payment and use it to payout mining earnings.

With thousands of streams I also mean any "payments" coming in. A friend of mine who I referred got a free Genesis 10Gh/s and bought another one. That 0,018 BTC is inflow for GAW. They don't collect all those bits and pieces until they need 475 Gh/s extra and order 1 Ant S3 (for example).

If they for example are pointing their mining income to a cold wallet address it could just stack up there and be spent on new hardware once BTC goes up a bit. With low rates it makes no sense to convert BTC to USD and into hardware. Waiting for BTC to raise 10% in value will give you 10% more mining speed for the same BTC.

If all streams coming in are big enough to fund the outflow in payments and withdrawals, then yes, effectively newcomers pay the income for older clients. Difference in that sense with a ponzi is that there is the actual mining result that's flowing into the cold wallet. So by itself having "payments in" being used for "payouts to other clients" isn't by default a bad thing.

[jimmothy]

With thousands of streams I also mean any "payments" coming in. A friend of mine who I referred got a free Genesis 10Gh/s and bought another one. That 0,018 BTC is inflow for GAW. They don't collect all those bits and pieces until they need 475 Gh/s extra and order 1 Ant S3 (for example).

According to the latest CCN advertisement, they should be getting thousands of BTC per day in new purchases that can immediately be spent on hardware.

If they for example are pointing their mining income to a cold wallet address it could just stack up there and be spent on new hardware once BTC goes up a bit. With low rates it makes no sense to convert BTC to USD and into hardware. Waiting for BTC to raise 10% in value will give you 10% more mining speed for the same BTC.

If all streams coming in are big enough to fund the outflow in payments and withdrawals, then yes, effectively newcomers pay the income for older clients. Difference in that sense with a ponzi is that there is the actual mining result that's flowing into the cold wallet. So by itself having "payments in" being used for "payouts to other clients" isn't by default a bad thing.

Yes, they technically could have a secret mining address but I find it incredibly unlikely.

I would say it is definitely by default a bad thing that they are using new customer payments to payout "mining earnings". (i.e. mimicking a ponzi scheme)

Why can't they payout from actual mining earnings? Why can't they disclose their mining address? What benefit does it provide them to mimic a ponzi scheme?

[Flep182]

With thousands of streams I also mean any "payments" coming in. A friend of mine who I referred got a free Genesis 10Gh/s and bought another one. That 0,018 BTC is inflow for GAW. They don't collect all those bits and pieces until they need 475 Gh/s extra and order 1 Ant S3 (for example).

According to the latest CCN advertisement, they should be getting thousands of BTC per day in new purchases that can immediately be spent on hardware.

If they for example are pointing their mining income to a cold wallet address it could just stack up there and be spent on new hardware once BTC goes up a bit. With low rates it makes no sense to convert BTC to USD and into hardware. Waiting for BTC to raise 10% in value will give you 10% more mining speed for the same BTC.

If all streams coming in are big enough to fund the outflow in payments and withdrawals, then yes, effectively newcomers pay the income for older clients. Difference in that sense with a ponzi is that there is the actual mining result that's flowing into the cold wallet. So by itself having "payments in" being used for "payouts to other clients" isn't by default a bad thing.

Yes, they technically could have a secret mining address but I find it incredibly unlikely.

I would say it is definitely by default a bad thing that they are using new customer payments to payout "mining earnings". (i.e. mimicking a ponzi scheme)

Why can't they payout from actual mining earnings? Why can't they disclose their mining address? What benefit does it provide them to mimic a ponzi scheme?

Might be a very good reason from a bookkeeping perspective. If they'd rent out hash power in USD instead of BTC (or payments through CC in USD) they would have 0 reason to start converting back and forth. They've probably bought a lot of BTC with USD when it hit the bottom a few weeks back.
It's not that they try to mimic a ponzi scheme, if they had 3 bank accounts they could still pay you out from the same where you paid to.

[jimmothy]

With thousands of streams I also mean any "payments" coming in. A friend of mine who I referred got a free Genesis 10Gh/s and bought another one. That 0,018 BTC is inflow for GAW. They don't collect all those bits and pieces until they need 475 Gh/s extra and order 1 Ant S3 (for example).

According to the latest CCN advertisement, they should be getting thousands of BTC per day in new purchases that can immediately be spent on hardware.

If they for example are pointing their mining income to a cold wallet address it could just stack up there and be spent on new hardware once BTC goes up a bit. With low rates it makes no sense to convert BTC to USD and into hardware. Waiting for BTC to raise 10% in value will give you 10% more mining speed for the same BTC.

If all streams coming in are big enough to fund the outflow in payments and withdrawals, then yes, effectively newcomers pay the income for older clients. Difference in that sense with a ponzi is that there is the actual mining result that's flowing into the cold wallet. So by itself having "payments in" being used for "payouts to other clients" isn't by default a bad thing.

Yes, they technically could have a secret mining address but I find it incredibly unlikely.

I would say it is definitely by default a bad thing that they are using new customer payments to payout "mining earnings". (i.e. mimicking a ponzi scheme)

Why can't they payout from actual mining earnings? Why can't they disclose their mining address? What benefit does it provide them to mimic a ponzi scheme?

Might be a very good reason from a bookkeeping perspective. If they'd rent out hash power in USD instead of BTC (or payments through CC in USD) they would have 0 reason to start converting back and forth. They've probably bought a lot of BTC with USD when it hit the bottom a few weeks back.
It's not that they try to mimic a ponzi scheme, if they had 3 bank accounts they could still pay you out from the same where you paid to.

From a "bookkeeping perspective" they've made their system several times more complicated than other companies who just payout directly from their mining address.

The currency people used for payment is irrelevant because it should not be used to payout mining earnings.

At any given time GAW has X hashrate that produces Y BTC for customers daily. They should be able to pay out Y BTC daily without ever touching new customer payments. It's much harder to try to allocate Y BTC daily from new customer payments.

A ponzi scheme defined as: "a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

So they are without a doubt mimicking a ponzi scheme.

If anyone can come up with a logical reason why it might be beneficial for GAW to payout "mining earnings" from new customer payments instead of from actual mining earnings, I will reward you with 1000 jimmothypoints. (keep in mind it has to outweigh the downside of looking like a ponzi)

[reeko400.1]

With thousands of streams I also mean any "payments" coming in. A friend of mine who I referred got a free Genesis 10Gh/s and bought another one. That 0,018 BTC is inflow for GAW. They don't collect all those bits and pieces until they need 475 Gh/s extra and order 1 Ant S3 (for example).

According to the latest CCN advertisement, they should be getting thousands of BTC per day in new purchases that can immediately be spent on hardware.

If they for example are pointing their mining income to a cold wallet address it could just stack up there and be spent on new hardware once BTC goes up a bit. With low rates it makes no sense to convert BTC to USD and into hardware. Waiting for BTC to raise 10% in value will give you 10% more mining speed for the same BTC.

If all streams coming in are big enough to fund the outflow in payments and withdrawals, then yes, effectively newcomers pay the income for older clients. Difference in that sense with a ponzi is that there is the actual mining result that's flowing into the cold wallet. So by itself having "payments in" being used for "payouts to other clients" isn't by default a bad thing.

Yes, they technically could have a secret mining address but I find it incredibly unlikely.

I would say it is definitely by default a bad thing that they are using new customer payments to payout "mining earnings". (i.e. mimicking a ponzi scheme)

Why can't they payout from actual mining earnings? Why can't they disclose their mining address? What benefit does it provide them to mimic a ponzi scheme?

Might be a very good reason from a bookkeeping perspective. If they'd rent out hash power in USD instead of BTC (or payments through CC in USD) they would have 0 reason to start converting back and forth. They've probably bought a lot of BTC with USD when it hit the bottom a few weeks back.
It's not that they try to mimic a ponzi scheme, if they had 3 bank accounts they could still pay you out from the same where you paid to.

From a "bookkeeping perspective" they've made their system several times more complicated than other companies who just payout directly from their mining address.

The currency people used for payment is irrelevant because it should not be used to payout mining earnings.

At any given time GAW has X hashrate that produces Y BTC for customers daily. They should be able to pay out Y BTC daily without ever touching new customer payments. It's much harder to try to allocate Y BTC daily from new customer payments.

A ponzi scheme defined as: "a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

So they are without a doubt mimicking a ponzi scheme.

If anyone can come up with a logical reason why it might be beneficial for GAW to payout "mining earnings" from new customer payments instead of from actual mining earnings, I will reward you with 1000 jimmothypoints. (keep in mind it has to outweigh the downside of looking like a ponzi)

My analyst predicts 1 jimmothypoint will be worth $50 :grinning:

[galdur]

Every time I see that doggieman yokel post here

I´m tempted to go back in GAW he´s been such

an outstanding counter-indicator for me elsewhere.

[demonz]

With thousands of streams I also mean any "payments" coming in. A friend of mine who I referred got a free Genesis 10Gh/s and bought another one. That 0,018 BTC is inflow for GAW. They don't collect all those bits and pieces until they need 475 Gh/s extra and order 1 Ant S3 (for example).

According to the latest CCN advertisement, they should be getting thousands of BTC per day in new purchases that can immediately be spent on hardware.

If they for example are pointing their mining income to a cold wallet address it could just stack up there and be spent on new hardware once BTC goes up a bit. With low rates it makes no sense to convert BTC to USD and into hardware. Waiting for BTC to raise 10% in value will give you 10% more mining speed for the same BTC.

If all streams coming in are big enough to fund the outflow in payments and withdrawals, then yes, effectively newcomers pay the income for older clients. Difference in that sense with a ponzi is that there is the actual mining result that's flowing into the cold wallet. So by itself having "payments in" being used for "payouts to other clients" isn't by default a bad thing.

Yes, they technically could have a secret mining address but I find it incredibly unlikely.

I would say it is definitely by default a bad thing that they are using new customer payments to payout "mining earnings". (i.e. mimicking a ponzi scheme)

Why can't they payout from actual mining earnings? Why can't they disclose their mining address? What benefit does it provide them to mimic a ponzi scheme?

Might be a very good reason from a bookkeeping perspective. If they'd rent out hash power in USD instead of BTC (or payments through CC in USD) they would have 0 reason to start converting back and forth. They've probably bought a lot of BTC with USD when it hit the bottom a few weeks back.
It's not that they try to mimic a ponzi scheme, if they had 3 bank accounts they could still pay you out from the same where you paid to.

From a "bookkeeping perspective" they've made their system several times more complicated than other companies who just payout directly from their mining address.

The currency people used for payment is irrelevant because it should not be used to payout mining earnings.

At any given time GAW has X hashrate that produces Y BTC for customers daily. They should be able to pay out Y BTC daily without ever touching new customer payments. It's much harder to try to allocate Y BTC daily from new customer payments.

A ponzi scheme defined as: "a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

So they are without a doubt mimicking a ponzi scheme.

If anyone can come up with a logical reason why it might be beneficial for GAW to payout "mining earnings" from new customer payments instead of from actual mining earnings, I will reward you with 1000 jimmothypoints. (keep in mind it has to outweigh the downside of looking like a ponzi)

Well only thing I can think of is HashKing has declared that the payouts are not from mining. But from a few different sources. So in this case, it would make sense if your payout got traced back to a "holding wallet" (which wouldn't point back to a recent block creation).

Maybe your payout was from a lucky streak HashKing had at PrimeDice?  :grinning: