NastyFans: The Bitcoin Enthusiast Fan Club (est. 2012)

[kuzetsa]

So then the cap for dividend payments to shareholders is 20Mh/s per share.  The excess will be used for electricity and buybacks.

As I understand, no such cap exists. The company simply owns shares in itself. The rest are "outstanding shares" which pay out dividends.

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[Bastone]

So then the cap for dividend payments to shareholders is 20Mh/s per share.  The excess will be used for electricity and buybacks.

There is no "cap" and seeing as though there are only 25,000 shares and more than 500,000MH/s currently on order, without a motion passing with a 66% 'yes' shareholder vote to issue more shares, the MH/s per share is guaranteed to exceed 20MH/s.

I'm still completely confused as to how this works, could you please rewrite the OP to show how much you payout?  Do you payout 100% of your gear to 25,000 shares (with 18k of them held by the company)?  Do you payout 20Mh/s per share and keep the rest for electricity (as the OP states)?

[Bitcoin Oz]

By growth fund I meant keeping  a portion of dividends to buy more equipment and growing the company. I didnt mean holding shares which is worse than just holding bitcoins. Besides, you would be better off buying back your own shares than investing in other companies.

I don't like the idea of keeping a portion of the dividends.  I would like to continue to pay out 100% of the coins mined by this operation to shareholders.  Each shareholder could choose to use their dividends to buy more shares on their own if they so please, thus putting this decision in their hands.

I wish glbse let you reinvest automatically by letting you own portions of shares. Unless you get enough dividends to actually buy a new share each week you can be waiting  a long time to reinvest into the company.

[OgNasty]

I wish glbse let you reinvest automatically by letting you own portions of shares. Unless you get enough dividends to actually buy a new share each week you can be waiting  a long time to reinvest into the company.

Own more shares.    One of the biggest advantages of weekly dividend payouts is compounding your interest at a much faster rate than is available with typical investments.

[Bastone]

I'm still completely confused as to how this works, could you please rewrite the OP to show how much you payout?  Do you payout 100% of your gear to 25,000 shares (with 18k of them held by the company)?  Do you payout 20Mh/s per share and keep the rest for electricity (as the OP states)?

You don't seem to understand how GLBSE works.  Dividends are paid out only to the Outstanding Shares (noted on the OP).  Currently there are http://bit.ly/VlU94G "Shares Outstanding."  100% of the dividends generated by the "Currently Operating" equipment (also noted on the OP) is paid to the Outstanding Shares.

So when you get your ASIC's and its over 20Mh per share, you said that you would transfer shares to a private account until the payout was 20Mh per share and use the private account to pay for electricity and buybacks..  So the time it will be over 20Mh per share is very brief.  That seems to be in effect a 20Mh per share cap.  Until all of the gear is received and it will be slightly over 20Mh for the full 25,000 shares.

[Bastone]

So when you get your ASIC's and its over 20Mh per share, you said that you would transfer shares to a private account until the payout was 20Mh per share and use the private account to pay for electricity and buybacks..  So the time it will be over 20Mh per share is very brief.  That seems to be in effect a 20Mh per share cap.  Until all of the gear is received and it will be slightly over 20Mh for the full 25,000 shares.

You are making assumptions about the rate at which shares would be transferred to a private account.  As the controller of the company, that makes me the single largest controller of NASTY shares at the present time.  That is a rather large incentive to keep dividends high, shareholders happy, and the share price elevated. 

So your saying you own all those unsold shares?  I thought the shareholders owned this company and the equipment?  Apparently they only own 7k and you own 18k?

[Bastone]

So your saying you own all those unsold shares?  I thought the shareholders owned this company and the equipment?  Apparently they only own 7k and you own 18k?

As stated, I control them.  I do not own them.  Due to controlling them on behalf of the shareholder, I have an incentive to make sure they are valued highly and distributed in a way that maximizes shareholder value.  

So all the funds from the sale of the 18k remaining shares will be used to purchase equipment or pay dividends to the shareholders, since they aren't your shares?  You won't pocket the proceeds from the sale of the remaining shares?  (Since you've met your 20Mh/s per share obligation)

If this is true, why don't you change the OP to state that 100% of the hashing power of the gear will be returned to the shareholders with no 20Mh/s per share cap, and to state that all IPO funds will be used to buy mining equipment.

[Bastone]

why don't you change the OP to state that 100% of the hashing power of the gear will be returned to the shareholders with no 20Mh/s per share cap.

I have no plans to change the OP or contract at this time.  There is no cap.  

The OP clearly states 20Mh/s per share.  You won't change it.  That sure looks like a cap to me.

[Bastone]

The OP clearly states 20Mh/s per share.  You won't change it.  That sure looks like a cap to me.

Then make your investment decisions based on your assumptions.  The imaginary cap has been addressed several times now and I don't think anyone appreciates your trolling using a sock puppet account.  As mentioned, with the current shares issued and the ordered equipment, it would be impossible not to exceed 20MH/s per share without either a shareholder motion to issue more shares, or the equipment providers falling short of their estimates.

You never answered my questions about whether your going to pocket the income from the remaining 18k shares, since your 20MH/s per share obligation is met.

Are you going to buy more equipment?  Or is the rest of the IPO pure profit for you? 

I'm clearly not trolling, your contract and intentions are about as clear as mud, and you won't clarify them except to say that the OP stays as it is, which means your done buying equipment and intend to pocket the rest of the IPO funds, but you don't want to say it, because no one will invest.

[OgNasty]

I am confused about what one share represents, the Contract say that one share is a 20Mh/s?  Is that still the case or will one share be more?  The OP says 469GH and 6985 shares?  

So does this pay 469GH/6985 shares= 67 Mh/s  once the ASIC's arrive?

or does it pay 20 Mh/s?

The end goal is to provide or exceed 20MH/s per share.  It will require some management on my part to go from the current 1MH/s per share FPGA goal to the 20MH/s per share ASIC goal as we start massively increasing hashing power.  Investor demand will ultimately determine the rate at which the MH/s per share amount is adjusted.  There is no way to say exactly how many shares will be on the market when the ASICs arrive, but I will try to keep things orderly, and keep the share count down until the ASICs arrive.

So this is 20Mh/s per share, once ASIC's have arrived and 1 MH/s per share until then.

Those are the stated goals.  However, the MH/s per share could increase significantly while buyers are found for the additional shares hitting the market.  Dividends during this period should be extremely high due to being at the front of the line for ASIC miners, which should allow us to exploit a low difficulty, as well as a potentially higher MH/s per share while buyers are found.  That is the "intrinsic bet" MoinCoin mentioned.

So will you pay more then 20Mh/s per share?  or not?  

I will pay more than 20MH/s per share if we have more than 20MH/s per share operating.  I will not be dumping 18,000 shares on the market at once, so there will be a transitional period where it would be reasonable to assume that more than 20MH/s per share in dividends will be paid.  

How will you pay for electricity, if you pay 100% to the shareholders?

The quote below is from the thread FAQ.  Basically, the way I'm planning to implement it is like this...  Once we have our equipment in place and have exceeded the 20MH/s per share goal, shares still held by the company will begin being placed in a separate account, with dividends used to pay electricity costs and buy more shares on the open market.  This should allow NASTY to remain free of operator costs & electricity costs, while also providing an ongoing demand for shares and not dilluting the market.  

HOW CAN YOU PROVIDE FREE ELECTRICITY?
I intend to purchase more than 20MH/s in mining equipment for each share sold.  That surplus in power will provide an ongoing means to pay electricity costs for the operation.

So then the cap for dividend payments to shareholders is 20Mh/s per share.  The excess will be used for electricity and buybacks.

There is no "cap" and seeing as though there are only 25,000 shares and more than 500,000MH/s currently on order, without a motion passing with a 66% 'yes' shareholder vote to issue more shares, the MH/s per share is guaranteed to exceed 20MH/s.

I'm still completely confused as to how this works, could you please rewrite the OP to show how much you payout?  Do you payout 100% of your gear to 25,000 shares (with 18k of them held by the company)?  Do you payout 20Mh/s per share and keep the rest for electricity (as the OP states)?

You don't seem to understand how GLBSE works.  Dividends are paid out only to the Outstanding Shares (noted on the OP).  Currently there are "Shares Outstanding."  100% of the dividends generated by the "Currently Operating" equipment (also noted on the OP) is paid to the Outstanding Shares.

So when you get your ASIC's and its over 20Mh per share, you said that you would transfer shares to a private account until the payout was 20Mh per share and use the private account to pay for electricity and buybacks..  So the time it will be over 20Mh per share is very brief.  That seems to be in effect a 20Mh per share cap.  Until all of the gear is received and it will be slightly over 20Mh for the full 25,000 shares.

You are making assumptions about the rate at which shares would be transferred to a private account.  As the controller of the company, that makes me the single largest controller of NASTY shares at the present time.  That is a rather large incentive to keep dividends high, shareholders happy, and the share price elevated.  

Let me also repost this:
There is no "cap" and seeing as though there are only 25,000 shares and more than 500,000MH/s currently on order, without a motion passing with a 66% 'yes' shareholder vote to issue more shares, the MH/s per share is guaranteed to exceed 20MH/s.

So your saying you own all those unsold shares?  I thought the shareholders owned this company and the equipment?  Apparently they only own 7k and you own 18k?

As stated, I control them.  I do not own them.  Due to controlling them on behalf of the shareholder, I have an incentive to make sure they are valued highly and distributed in a way that maximizes shareholder value.  

why don't you change the OP to state that 100% of the hashing power of the gear will be returned to the shareholders with no 20Mh/s per share cap.

I have no plans to change the OP or contract at this time.  There is no cap.  

no such cap exists.

There is no "cap"

The OP clearly states 20Mh/s per share.  You won't change it.  That sure looks like a cap to me.

Then make your investment decisions based on your assumptions.  The imaginary cap has been addressed several times now and I don't think anyone appreciates your trolling using a sock puppet account.  As mentioned, with the current shares issued and the ordered equipment, it would be impossible not to exceed 20MH/s per share without either a shareholder motion to issue more shares, or the equipment providers falling short of their estimates.

Are you going to buy more equipment?  Or is the rest of the IPO pure profit for you?  

This was already answered.  Please re-read the FAQ section on how free electricity is provided and the above posts for clarification.

[Bastone]

Are you going to buy more equipment?  Or is the rest of the IPO pure profit for you?  

This was already answered.  Please re-read the FAQ section on how free electricity is provided and the above posts for clarification.

Where was it answered?  Again, you avoid a straight answer.

We all will have to assume that you will not buy any more equipment and will pocket all of the remaining IPO funds raised.

[OgNasty]

BFL ANNOUNCEMENT:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/16-Announcement-BFL-ASIC-Release-specifications

Butterfly Labs has announced that their BitForce Single 'SC' will exceed initial estimates by 50%.  That significantly improves our ordered hash rate, which has been updated on the OP.

[Timbo925]

Ok let me have a try.

The way I see is OgNasty controlls the extra 18K shares and brings them on the market in a controlled way.
ATM we got around 7K shares on the market and 700K MH/s ordered. Meaning if no new shares are being sold, each share is worth 100 MH/s.
This creates an higher prices as normal. By contolling shares it is possible to get more BTC for the acctual value of the hardware.
So depending on howmuch depand theire is, the actual MH/s/share will be higher compared to the stated 20 MH/s.

Once all the shares are sold we will have 649,212 MH/s / 25000 shares = 25.96848 MH/s (each share worth 1/25000 of the hardware)
Now if all shares are controlled in a good way, the company will be able to use the profit from selling new shares, to buy more hardware. And this way raise the MH/s/share rate.
The profit will also be used to buy shares to cover opperating costs. The divident payment will be used to pay for the running cost. Ofcouse every share sold also goes a part to OgNasty to convert back into $ to cover the cost of ordering the initial equipment.

This system seems like a good way to do it. The only problem is this seems the way OgNasty tells us it happen BUT the contract isn't clear it works this way.
Any clarification would be nice otherwise we just need to trust OgNasty not to 'run' away with the profits.

Might be wrong tho 

-Timbo925

[DutchBrat]

Picked up some shares below 0.40 

[OgNasty]

What I'd like to know is, if there's any hard cap to which extent he could grow this operation (space for mining hardware, time, power).

No such caps exist at this time.  I'll have a better idea of potential capacity limits when I've seen the finished ASIC products we've ordered.

[kuzetsa]

My guess, why NASTY prices had so much sell pressure (though that can only be part of it):

((...snip...))

... which leaves 1472 shares out in the wild that need to be recalled... For each share of MOVETO.FUND that you return, I will transfer to you:
...
Your choice of 1 share TEEK.B (5-day avg price of 0.5) or 1 share NASTY...

Sadly, I was only able to buy 19 shares, while the party was going on  

@MoinCoin: Thanks. Here are a few clickable thingies I currently know about.

First one is the one MoinCoin just pointed out.

• Post by cytokine on September 30, 2012, 05:20:12 PM
  
• Post by OgNasty on September 28, 2012, 09:27:35 PM
  
• Post by tmfp143 on September 29, 2012, 04:18:33 PM
  

QFE:

((...snip...))

All in all I have a lot of trust in the various deals going on, and also, there is diversification going on with the mining hardware itself, etc...

Overall  I'm happy with what I'm seeing.

Thanks OGNasty

Hell yeah!!!

Active trading (people hedging growth and such against nastymining's potential) means more liquidity for all of us / better prices (both for for selling, as well as for buying more shares)

[kuzetsa]

Oh no, something just "clicked" in my brain which seems to be in line with other people being worried / confused / asking questions you've labeled as troll-ish and so on.

((...snip / partial quote from FAQ...))
HOW MANY SHARES ARE YOU SELLING?
25,000 shares have been issued.  The rate which shares are sold will be determined by investor demand.

HOW CAN YOU PROVIDE FREE ELECTRICITY?
I intend to purchase more than 20MH/s in mining equipment for each share sold.  That surplus in power will provide an ongoing means to pay electricity costs for the operation.
((...snip / partial quote from FAQ...))

That won't work though.


If 100% mined output is going to shareholders, the surplus hashing power has no way of being funneled off (into another account or otherwise) unless you do something like:

Wild theories / assumptions:

-- front some money so that an "operating costs" account can buy the required number of shares at market price

-- outright GIVE the shares away to the "operating costs" account

-- somehow create "special operating cost shares" to fill the account with, which will have to be excluded from the original 25000 shares, but still pay dividends or some other scary maneuver.

As I said above. Something just "clicked" in my brain:

It still remains unclear what the exact nature of how / logic for how the extra hashing power will be allocated to pay for electricity and operating costs (( seems to me, the extra power will simply affect the value to ALL shareholders ... if so, the "surplus power per share" will make ALL shares higher than 20 MH/s and you're still left without any way to put that hash power into electricity or other operating costs ))



Three questions:

How will an "operating costs" account be done?

Will the "operating costs" account own some of the original 25000 shares?

Will there be a transfer of shares "at market price" or zero cost or what?

Edited to add:

My main realization was this:

Why is "extra hashing power" (beyond 20MH/s) per share even needed AT ALL? If that will be 100% paid to shareholders as dividends anyway, and you would otherwise have no access to it, what's the point? You won't just "take it and use it to pay for electricity" ... or will you? I haven't noticed any clear, well-explained way that extra hashing per share will pay for electricity in any way whatsoever.

(finished re-proofreading and fixing. oops)  --  Last Edit: Wednesday October 3rd 2012 @ 18:55 GMT

[Bastone]

Oh no, something just "clicked" in my brain which seems to be in line with other people being worried / confused / asking questions you've labeled as troll-ish and so on.

((...snip / partial quote from FAQ...))
HOW MANY SHARES ARE YOU SELLING?
25,000 shares have been issued.  The rate which shares are sold will be determined by investor demand.

HOW CAN YOU PROVIDE FREE ELECTRICITY?
I intend to purchase more than 20MH/s in mining equipment for each share sold.  That surplus in power will provide an ongoing means to pay electricity costs for the operation.
((...snip / partial quote from FAQ...))

That won't work though.


If 100% mined output is going to shareholders, the surplus hashing power has no way of being funneled off (into another account or otherwise) unless you do something like:

Wild theories / assumptions:

-- front some money so that an "operating costs" account can buy the required number of shares at market price

-- outright GIVE the shares away to the "operating costs" account

-- somehow create "special operating cost shares" to fill the account with, which will have to be excluded from the original 25000 shares, but still pay dividends or some other scary maneuver.

As I said above. Something just "clicked" in my brain:

It still remains unclear what the exact nature of how / logic for how the extra hashing power will be allocated to pay for electricity and operating costs (( seems to me, the extra power will simply affect the value to ALL shareholders ... if so, the "surplus power per share" will make ALL shares higher than 20 MH/s and you're still left without any way to put that hash power into electricity or other operating costs ))



Three questions:

How will an "operating costs" account be done?

Will the "operating costs" account own some of the original 25000 shares?

Will there be a transfer of shares "at market price" or zero cost or what?

Edited to add:

My main realization was this:

Why is "extra hashing power" (beyond 20MH/s) per share even needed for the first place since that will be 100% paid to shareholders as dividends anyway and you would otherwise have no access to it. You can't just "claim it" so I wouldn't think this helps pay for electricity in any way whatsoever.

(finished re-proofreading and fixing. oops)  --  Last Edit: Wednesday October 3rd 2012 @ 18:50 GMT

The Nasty contract on GLBSE and the OP of this thread, both only obligate NASTY to pay 20Mh/s.  I asked Ognasty to change the OP (to show a higher MH/s rate) several pages ago and he refused.  If he does happen to pay more it will be exceeding the contract.

I still fail to see why the market is valuing this asset so high for a puny 20Mh/s, even being first in line at BFL doesn't account for it. 

[kuzetsa]

@Bastone

Sorry, I was rewording that last paragraph when you posted your response just now.

As for your request, I don't understand why the OP or the GLBSE contract should be changed to state anything differently, other than clarification on the subject of operating costs (currently, it is quite vague)


I looked around on the market for equivalent of 20MH/s worth of "mining bond" or similar. There aren't really any out there with ownership in the company and/or voting rights like this. Also, price checked various ones that state at or around 1 MH/s (since we're currently operating closer to that)

Maybe prices have changed in the past 2 months I will look again and check how many are actually DELIVERING DIVIDENDS ant what the rates are. (and will also consider liquidity / rate at which they are being traded, etc.)

Pretty sure I WILL NOT be dumping all my shares of nasty mining in favor of something else, and at most will diversify into other mining-type companies and contracts. The business plan here was the best one around when I bought my first share a few weeks ago (more than a month at this point, perhaps two?)

Ah whatever, we're already getting more transparency and better returns here than with most traded companies (which are typically traded on fiat currency, not bitcoin.)

[kuzetsa]

((...snip...))
Wild theories / assumptions:

-- front some money so that an "operating costs" account can buy the required number of shares at market price

-- outright GIVE the shares away to the "operating costs" account

-- somehow create "special operating cost shares" to fill the account with, which will have to be excluded from the original 25000 shares, but still pay dividends or some other scary maneuver.

As I said above. Something just "clicked" in my brain:

It still remains unclear what the exact nature of how / logic for how the extra hashing power will be allocated to pay for electricity and operating costs (( seems to me, the extra power will simply affect the value to ALL shareholders ... if so, the "surplus power per share" will make ALL shares higher than 20 MH/s and you're still left without any way to put that hash power into electricity or other operating costs ))



Three questions:

How will an "operating costs" account be done?

Will the "operating costs" account own some of the original 25000 shares?

Will there be a transfer of shares "at market price" or zero cost or what?
((...snip...))

Wasn't my imagination. The math REALLY DOESN'T add up. The operating costs are being paid out of pocket currently.


Sorry, but with the lack of clear explanation and disclosure, it seems prudent to communicate an explanation about how the operating costs are being paid out of pocket, and the exact plan to create the "operating costs" account has yet to be finalized:

((quote from private message forum email thingy))

The how has not been decided/implemented yet. There is no private account right now and I'm paying all costs out of pocket. I hoped to takeover MergedMining and convert it to a mining fund, which NASTY could invest in. That would keep everything transparent and also allow others to take part in NASTY's investment fund. I really liked that idea, but likuidxd seems to want to close the ticker symbol instead. We'll see. I prefer a public investment fund as opposed to a private one, but private may be the only option unless I can take over MergedMining somehow.