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Author Topic: NastyFans: The Bitcoin Enthusiast Fan Club (est. 2012)  (Read 798342 times)
nonnakip
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March 26, 2013, 11:06:15 PM
 #941

Hello kuzetsa. I try to answer your comments. I only speak for nastyfans.

Quote from: http://www.nastyfans.org/policy -- section: polls / voting
any members that do not vote within thirty days of a poll begin will automatically vote for the "no action" choice

At the most basic level, "not voting" is the very definition of abstention:

You are correct. But maybe members do not have time to vote. Or maybe they are not available for some months. In such case it may be in the interest that they automatically vote for no action. This supports a model where changes only occur when a majority actively agrees. I thought this is a safe model for the first policy version.

Who wrote the original policy?

I am author of nastyfans policy and website. I pondered each policy item for a long time. The policy was nearly more work than the website.

1) it only takes a vote of 25% "no action" to veto any policy changes (a vote with 75% in favor is required to change policy)

Yes. I preferred a model where "no action" is easy and change is hard. I believe this helps us to make better decisions longterm.

2) the policy redefines abstention, and then hijacks / mis-counts actual, literal acts of abstention (formally defined as not voting) and then changes any true abstention to instead be a vote for "no action"

Correct. I preferred a model where only active voting can cause action.

3) why does OgNasty have control of greater than 25% of the seats, and with it, the ability to unilaterally veto any and all polls

The initial number of seats given to members matches the GLBSE list I received. On that list OgNasty had many seats.

Two earlier polls under this new system where ognasty's action was basically the only one that mattered (the outcome of the vote would have been reversed by a significant margin)

That is the choice of OgNasty.

Just wanted to point out that nowhere in the nastyfans policy was there any specification / written understanding or documentation (nor any post on this forum) to authorize OgNasty to suddenly have control over treasury seats, complete with voting rights:

The fanclub does not have treasury seats. All seats are the same. Just like you OgNasty received the number of seats on the GLBSE list. I think you agree that it is very generous that OgNasty does not accept donations for those seats. Maybe you want OgNasty to abstain from voting also? Sometimes OgNasty abstains. Somtimes not. Maybe OgNasty has insights to some issues that we do not know. Example of BTCFPGA: without OgNasty votes the results of the BTCFPGA order poll is not cancel. But this is obvious scam now. I trust OgNasty and I think most fans do. If OgNasty forces a poll result then maybe there are good reasons. But as president I choose polls carefully because I know OgNasty can push a majority.

Maybe in the future OgNasty does not have so many seats. We have several members with many seats and are growing.

So really, we have a mockery of a voting system:

We have a member with many many seats. We can ask OgNasty to abstain from voting. But there are some members like stan.distortion that prefer OgNasty handles the important decisions. They maybe have no disagreement with OgNasty voting. As president I would appreciate knowing before if OgNasty will vote on a poll. Because then there is no need for that poll.

1) abstention is instead automatically treated like a veto / converted to a vote of "take no action which can be used to fix or amend broken policy"
2) the mining operations manager (or whatever OgNasty's title is) basically has full veto power for everything treasury seats are no longer treated separately like they're supposed to be.
3) there is no "3" ... though I guess I'll add that technically, the 75% majority vote requirement isn't all that abnormal, but in light of point number 2, it's easily abused.

With voting we can change nastyfans policy. With dialogue we can work with OgNasty to start polls where we know OgNasty abstains.

I have much respect for OgNasty and the NASTY MINING work. I trust OgNasty. As president of nastyfans I also see the problem with seat distribution. I believe this problem will fix itself as NASTY MINING and nastyfans matures.

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March 26, 2013, 11:26:48 PM
 #942

How much money have I put into NASTY MINING?

You seem to know how much time I've spent, how much our electricity bills cost, and how many seats I've purchased on the open market. I'm curious where you got that I haven't earned the shares I possess. Any info to back that up? No? You just talking out your ass? OK. I'm sure that'll end well for you.

^above message was copied from bitcointalk inbox just now (after forwarding to nonnakip)

Subject line for inbox message was "stop the lies"



1) As for the issue of electricity & continued ownership of these seats, I sent a brief message to nonnakip (and forwarded the above inbox message I'm quoting here) to suggest your ownership of this many outstanding shares ought to be legitimized by nastyfans policy in some way, and also, that there should be a policy change to address continued electricity usage.

2) There is no way you could have so many seats as you do, because the total number of outstanding shares when GLBSE closed was something like 10 thousand seats fewer than you currently have. There really is no way you can explain that you legitimately bought so many from anyone else. Quite simply, these treasury shares were given to you as "freebie", and there's no other way to look at it.



3) why does OgNasty have control of greater than 25% of the seats, and with it, the ability to unilaterally veto any and all polls

The initial number of seats given to members matches the GLBSE list I received. On that list OgNasty had many seats.

1) Was there any digital signature with a timestamp proving this list is unmodified, and originated from GLBSE?
2) If not, is there a money trail / evidence in the blockchain with transactions to support actual purchase of this number?
3) If not, are there posts on this thread backing up or suggesting that OgNasty had personally bought and paid for 15k+ shares while [NASTY] was still on GLBSE?
4) If not, what about evidence of mining hardware purchased by OgNasty which is proportional to the amount of hash power equivalent to this many seats / shares?

On point #4, assuming IPO prices, and $5/bitcoin, that represents considerably more than 10x BFL ASICs... This $5/btc number is pretty generous considering things have been trading at higher than $5/btc since the IPO, and the IPO was at something like 0.2 BTC per share (shouldn't be too hard to do a real estimate / audit on this... I only request that someone please sanity-check the number of seats OgNasty currently has, even if the findings are not fully disclosed)

I stand by what I was originally implying:

Undisclosed / non-transparent decisions were made.

... without transparency, discussion, and accountability, this sort of thing is only going to lead to further confusion about everyone's intentions.

This inquiry doesn't involve any sort of lie on my part, so I do not appreciate getting an inbox message titled "stop the lies" because of these oversights.
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March 26, 2013, 11:56:36 PM
 #943

I stand by what I was originally implying:

Undisclosed / non-transparent decisions were made.

... without transparency, discussion, and accountability, this sort of thing is only going to lead to further confusion about everyone's intentions.

Did OgNasty control distribution of treasury seats on GLBSE? Yes.

Did OgNasty have majority voting power on GLBSE? Yes because OgNasty only provided motions where shareholders may choose action.

With nastyfans I attempt a honest effort to keep us together after GLBSE joke. I think we will have much fun in the next 12 months. I think it is good that you mention the voting issue but I prefer we keep it at appropriate level. Things are not so broken like you claim. They certainly are not more broken then with GLBSE.

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March 29, 2013, 05:30:22 AM
 #944

Finally some positive news from BFL: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-2.html#post20942
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March 29, 2013, 06:59:23 AM
 #945


Quote
28 March 2013 - Mini-Update

I had wanted to post a video tonight, but wasn't able to make that happen, so let me apologize for that in advance. As some of you may know from the chatbox, we have been working diligently to get these ASICs out the door. We've been tracking down a power issue these last few days and have it isolated to a few key systems. In the interest of time, we are planning on potentially scaling back units hashing speed as required to accommodate the extra power and shipping multiple units to those that want their units right now. If would would prefer to wait for a unit after we've made some changes to the systems that need a bit of tweaking, we will be happy to put your shipment on hold. However, if you'd rather have the units right now at an increased power usage, we will ship you as many units as required to get you to the hashrate your purchased, if we end up having to scale back any given class of unit to fit within the power envelope of the current board design.

We have the current design hashing, and as I said, I had hoped to have a video of a unit hashing here in KC, but I wasn't able to bring that all together tonight, but hopefully I can get it posted up tomorrow or by this weekend. I will update as soon as I have more news to share, with a video.

If you absolutely do not want a unit that is consuming more power than expected, you can let us know you'd like to wait for a revised unit or you are welcome to request a refund. If you'd rather have your units shipped regardless of increased power usage, we will still guarantee your hashrate by shipping you however many units are required to achieve your purchased hashrate. There is no need to contact us right now if you are not concerned about the power usage and just want your units shipped ASAP. Even with the increased power demand on these first units, they will still out perform any competing products by a very wide margin in terms of power and megahash/J.

Again, we apologize for the delay, but we are almost there.


wow, that is some really good news!..

question then comes, shall we go with the sub-optimal energy consumption and get them delivered way before everyone else, thus getting them online and start mining asap to maximize the potential advantage we get there.. or wait for the tweaked, less power consuming ones..?


I say option 1, that we get them asap and maybe OgNasty is a tech genius and be able to optimize himself later on, or we can maybe replace them later as we first exhaust our "out of the starting block" advantage? Smiley
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March 29, 2013, 09:13:40 AM
 #946

The sooner the better is for sure the best option imo Wink

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March 29, 2013, 09:21:21 AM
 #947

The sooner the better. We're way ahead in the queue, so let's use that to our advantage before the difficulty skyrockets. We could earn those ASICs back in matter of weeks right now.

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March 29, 2013, 10:35:46 AM
 #948

The sooner the better. We're way ahead in the queue, so let's use that to our advantage before the difficulty skyrockets. We could earn those ASICs back in matter of weeks right now.

totally agree!
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March 29, 2013, 01:47:30 PM
 #949

The sooner the better. We're way ahead in the queue, so let's use that to our advantage before the difficulty skyrockets. We could earn those ASICs back in matter of weeks right now.

totally agree!
I personally agree; however OgNasty pays for the power out of his pocket so I would like to hear his opinion.

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March 29, 2013, 02:12:05 PM
 #950

The sooner the better. We're way ahead in the queue, so let's use that to our advantage before the difficulty skyrockets. We could earn those ASICs back in matter of weeks right now.

totally agree!
I personally agree; however OgNasty pays for the power out of his pocket so I would like to hear his opinion.

yes, but naturally, we would have to donate back for that (the extra power), out of our donations we get from OgNasty Smiley
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March 29, 2013, 04:47:30 PM
 #951

The sooner the better. We're way ahead in the queue, so let's use that to our advantage before the difficulty skyrockets. We could earn those ASICs back in matter of weeks right now.

totally agree!
I personally agree; however OgNasty pays for the power out of his pocket so I would like to hear his opinion.

yes, but naturally, we would have to donate back for that (the extra power), out of our donations we get from OgNasty Smiley

I have no problem with rushing the first few units and paying a higher power cost. We can always sell them at a profit and order more if it becomes a huge deal. I also don't think any additional donations will be necessary. The extra heat however does concern me. For that reason, today I've ordered a standalone air conditioning unit and will be paying a professional to install an exhaust duct in our dedicated mining area. In addition, I am also looking at having a custom electrical circuit installed to allow for additional expansion along with some security improvements. Things are going to start getting really exciting, and there are still two rabbits waiting to be pulled out of my hat.

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March 29, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
 #952

@OgNasty,
Would it be possible to see some up to date pictures of our operation?  Before and after would be great!

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March 29, 2013, 05:07:38 PM
 #953

@OgNasty,
Would it be possible to see some up to date pictures of our operation?  Before and after would be great!

Seconded.

We always love to see rig pr0n.
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March 29, 2013, 06:18:24 PM
 #954

@OgNasty,
Would it be possible to see some up to date pictures of our operation?  Before and after would be great!

Not much has changed from the last pic. Just a tower of singles and a mess of wires. I'll get it looking sexy over the next month or so and post some nice pics.

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aquarius
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March 29, 2013, 06:31:26 PM
 #955

new post by BFL

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-3.html

Quote
I want to clarify the above post, as there is some potential confusion. We are not shipping yet. We plan on shipping possibly by the end of next week, but I will update on a shipping schedule as soon as I have more definitive information with regards to that.
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March 29, 2013, 06:42:53 PM
 #956

new post by BFL
Quote
... We plan on shipping possibly by the end of next week, ...

Sounds like standard BFL vagueness.

It's sad that that is the only thing we can hope for.





* Achievement unlocked - Awkward grammar; use a double-that correctly in a sentence.
miscreanity
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March 29, 2013, 07:06:29 PM
 #957

Things are going to start getting really exciting, and there are still two rabbits waiting to be pulled out of my hat.

Careful - it starts with only two, then you have a hundred!
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March 29, 2013, 08:08:50 PM
 #958

Distribution 228637 is complete. Thanks to our donators!

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March 29, 2013, 08:59:04 PM
 #959

Quote
We plan on shipping possibly by the end of next week

Sounds sooooo familiar... Hopefully it's for real this time...
redbeans2012
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MMM Extra - The right step towards the goal!


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March 30, 2013, 12:26:50 AM
 #960

Is the nastyfans site ok? I've been having some issues getting parts to load.

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