ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[SmiGueL]

Looks like: ~0.00121000 BTC/share

0.0012171BTC/share confirmed

[empoweoqwj]

Chip design is a complicated thing. One would assume people would realize this, but I see the process over-simplified repeatedly. There are far more variables involved than just "How many NM is it?"

FC found this out the hard way, the same as BFL and many others. They taped out chips that ended up sucking up too much juice and running way too hot. There are a variety of solutions, but I like the path FC is taking. His 40nm chips will likely outperform the 28nm chips from other companies by a fair margin. And they will cost a fraction of what the 28nm chips will to manufacture. The problem though will be massive heat generation. Solution? Immersive cooling.

I mean really, there is an obvious strategy here. Lets look at the advantages:

Chips at less than 1/10 the cost of the competition
Higher performance chips (as measured in Gh/s)
Plenty of available foundries
Higher density cards and racks
Lower electricity costs for cooling
Deliverable turnkey farms (in storage containers)
Lower facilities costs ( don't need a traditional datacenter)

This really is the future of ASIC mining by inventing it, just like the tag line says. Friedcat is addressing issues most of the competition hasn't even contemplated yet. He is going industrial.

When mining goes "industrial" the community is dead.  The capabilities to deploy a liquid cooled behemoth fall to the very few, so hopefully the future has an answer to the block halving issue because the return on something that expansive will be questionable from the get-go, let alone remaining viable long-term.  Removing the concept of the block reward halving, the specs on a box would have to be absurdly impressive considering the higher-end that folks like KNC are starting to shoot for.  If a Neptune becomes the new norm for the hobbyist-turned-pro miner, we're at the verge of 2014 seeing an even more absurd growth curve than 2013 as far as hashrate distribution. 

Not to mention the ever-present X-factor that you could get a BFL-type company or even a KNC who says screw it, we're making our retirement, who cares how much hardware we push out and what impact it has on "the network".  Standard industry practice among the more greedy VC types is to bleed an industry of all the cash it has before moving on to the next industry, leaving both companies and customers in the dust.  BTC isn't immune to that, look how little cash it takes to tip markets and drive prices up and down the "to-the-moon" scale people like to use. 

I don't blame FC for thinking big, I blame the ASIC manu's across the board for thinking scaling up to industrial requirements is the future of mining.  The only direction this is going is centralization.

So what do you expect FC to do? Go home and pack in the business? Of course its going industrial. Its a big business.

[silverfuture]

0.0012171

[explorer]

New to AM Direct shares, is there a central place where all information is collected without having to read 800 forum pages?

- Shareholder list
- Dividend amounts
- ...

History is always important. Read it anyway. Lots of drivel, but solid info too.
Look on Havelock for last few months worth of divs, beyond that it gets harder...

[empoweoqwj]

New to AM Direct shares, is there a central place where all information is collected without having to read 800 forum pages?

- Shareholder list
- Dividend amounts
- ...

History is always important. Read it anyway. Lots of drivel, but solid info too.
Look on Havelock for last few months worth of divs, beyond that it gets harder...

I'd read the pages. It takes a few day days but gives you a solid understanding of AM. Shorter than "War and Peace" ... probably

[Rival]

Chip design is a complicated thing. One would assume people would realize this, but I see the process over-simplified repeatedly. There are far more variables involved than just "How many NM is it?"

FC found this out the hard way, the same as BFL and many others. They taped out chips that ended up sucking up too much juice and running way too hot. There are a variety of solutions, but I like the path FC is taking. His 40nm chips will likely outperform the 28nm chips from other companies by a fair margin. And they will cost a fraction of what the 28nm chips will to manufacture. The problem though will be massive heat generation. Solution? Immersive cooling.

I mean really, there is an obvious strategy here. Lets look at the advantages:

Chips at less than 1/10 the cost of the competition
Higher performance chips (as measured in Gh/s)
Plenty of available foundries
Higher density cards and racks
Lower electricity costs for cooling
Deliverable turnkey farms (in storage containers)
Lower facilities costs ( don't need a traditional datacenter)

This really is the future of ASIC mining by inventing it, just like the tag line says. Friedcat is addressing issues most of the competition hasn't even contemplated yet. He is going industrial.

When mining goes "industrial" the community is dead.  The capabilities to deploy a liquid cooled behemoth fall to the very few, so hopefully the future has an answer to the block halving issue because the return on something that expansive will be questionable from the get-go, let alone remaining viable long-term.  Removing the concept of the block reward halving, the specs on a box would have to be absurdly impressive considering the higher-end that folks like KNC are starting to shoot for.  If a Neptune becomes the new norm for the hobbyist-turned-pro miner, we're at the verge of 2014 seeing an even more absurd growth curve than 2013 as far as hashrate distribution.  

Not to mention the ever-present X-factor that you could get a BFL-type company or even a KNC who says screw it, we're making our retirement, who cares how much hardware we push out and what impact it has on "the network".  Standard industry practice among the more greedy VC types is to bleed an industry of all the cash it has before moving on to the next industry, leaving both companies and customers in the dust.  BTC isn't immune to that, look how little cash it takes to tip markets and drive prices up and down the "to-the-moon" scale people like to use.  

I don't blame FC for thinking big, I blame the ASIC manu's across the board for thinking scaling up to industrial requirements is the future of mining.  The only direction this is going is centralization.

So what do you expect FC to do? Go home and pack in the business? Of course its going industrial. Its a big business.

Imagine hundreds or thousands of AM container farms deployed around the world by nation-states, corporations, and cooperatives. Just because you can't put one in your basement or afford to own and run one yourself does not mean it is not decentralized. In 5 years there could be tens of thousands of them deployed, especially as competitors emerge and follow the model FC is pioneering. This is all possible with btc at $10,000 each.

[silverfuture]

Chip design is a complicated thing. One would assume people would realize this, but I see the process over-simplified repeatedly. There are far more variables involved than just "How many NM is it?"

FC found this out the hard way, the same as BFL and many others. They taped out chips that ended up sucking up too much juice and running way too hot. There are a variety of solutions, but I like the path FC is taking. His 40nm chips will likely outperform the 28nm chips from other companies by a fair margin. And they will cost a fraction of what the 28nm chips will to manufacture. The problem though will be massive heat generation. Solution? Immersive cooling.

I mean really, there is an obvious strategy here. Lets look at the advantages:

Chips at less than 1/10 the cost of the competition
Higher performance chips (as measured in Gh/s)
Plenty of available foundries
Higher density cards and racks
Lower electricity costs for cooling
Deliverable turnkey farms (in storage containers)
Lower facilities costs ( don't need a traditional datacenter)

This really is the future of ASIC mining by inventing it, just like the tag line says. Friedcat is addressing issues most of the competition hasn't even contemplated yet. He is going industrial.

When mining goes "industrial" the community is dead.  The capabilities to deploy a liquid cooled behemoth fall to the very few, so hopefully the future has an answer to the block halving issue because the return on something that expansive will be questionable from the get-go, let alone remaining viable long-term.  Removing the concept of the block reward halving, the specs on a box would have to be absurdly impressive considering the higher-end that folks like KNC are starting to shoot for.  If a Neptune becomes the new norm for the hobbyist-turned-pro miner, we're at the verge of 2014 seeing an even more absurd growth curve than 2013 as far as hashrate distribution.  

Not to mention the ever-present X-factor that you could get a BFL-type company or even a KNC who says screw it, we're making our retirement, who cares how much hardware we push out and what impact it has on "the network".  Standard industry practice among the more greedy VC types is to bleed an industry of all the cash it has before moving on to the next industry, leaving both companies and customers in the dust.  BTC isn't immune to that, look how little cash it takes to tip markets and drive prices up and down the "to-the-moon" scale people like to use.  

I don't blame FC for thinking big, I blame the ASIC manu's across the board for thinking scaling up to industrial requirements is the future of mining.  The only direction this is going is centralization.

So what do you expect FC to do? Go home and pack in the business? Of course its going industrial. Its a big business.

Imagine hundreds or thousands of AM container farms deployed around the world by nation-states, corporations, and cooperatives. Just because you can't put one in your basement or afford to own and run one yourself does not mean it is not decentralized. In 5 years there could be tens of thousands of them deployed, especially as competitors emerge and follow the model FC is pioneering. This is all possible with btc at $10,000 each.

Exactly, industrialization does not equal centralization.

[weaknesswaran]

BTC sale pays electricity and you get the heat for free.

Every swimmingpool could have one.

[prancing_around]

BTC sale pays electricity and you get the heat for free.

Every swimmingpool could have one.

Maybe someone can figure out how to use colored coins to get the yellow water out….

[binaryFate]

BTC sale pays electricity and you get the heat for free.

Every swimmingpool could have one.

Maybe someone can figure out how to use colored coins to get the yellow water out….

Being a pioneer in immersion cooling should give us an edge...

[Voodah]

While Industrialization does not equal Centralization; it does certainly help because of the simple fact it prevents the small guy to contribute. That said, there's is no way of going forward without some degree of Industrialization. Saying No to Industrialization is only an idealistic and romantic stance at most.

However, the fact is we are already having centralization problems (GHash.io is the largest pool, with proven dishonest behavior, and borderline-scam prices) so this is a topic where serious thought needs to be put by those with power and control. It is in their (and everyone else's) best interest.

[Kyune]

Imagine hundreds or thousands of AM container farms deployed around the world by nation-states, corporations, and cooperatives. Just because you can't put one in your basement or afford to own and run one yourself does not mean it is not decentralized. In 5 years there could be tens of thousands of them deployed, especially as competitors emerge and follow the model FC is pioneering. This is all possible with btc at $10,000 each.

Gee, you don't think my Homeowner's Association would mind if I stack 5 or 6 containers in my tiny suburban backyard, do you?   

"Uh...it's a kids' play structure."

[vortex1878]

Please find my new ASCIMINER direct shares auction here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=376165.0

[benm]

I wonder how FriedCat will now convert RMB/Yuan from sales in China back into bitcoin to pay shareholders now that it looks like it's not going to be possible to buy any more bitcoin in China?

[cs54]

I wonder how FriedCat will now convert RMB/Yuan from sales in China back into bitcoin to pay shareholders now that it looks like it's not going to be possible to buy any more bitcoin in China?

Maybe he won't (and won't need to), if e.g. RMB income is used to fund operations and payroll and BTC income is distributed.

[chriswilmer]

I wonder how FriedCat will now convert RMB/Yuan from sales in China back into bitcoin to pay shareholders now that it looks like it's not going to be possible to buy any more bitcoin in China?

It's a good question... but these latest developments have made me more bullish on AM. Not only will a depressed price hold off the Intel's of the world, but there is now additional incentive in China to buy mining equipment (even at a "loss") because of the limited ways in which bitcoin can be obtained.

[reactor]

While Industrialization does not equal Centralization; it does certainly help because of the simple fact it prevents the small guy to contribute. That said, there's is no way of going forward without some degree of Industrialization. Saying No to Industrialization is only an idealistic and romantic stance at most.

However, the fact is we are already having centralization problems (GHash.io is the largest pool, with proven dishonest behavior, and borderline-scam prices) so this is a topic where serious thought needs to be put by those with power and control. It is in their (and everyone else's) best interest.

Too many to quote so I just picked this one to start from.

Preventing the small guy to contribute => So is this Wall Street 2.0?  That is what it sounds like.  Oh here, we'll let the barons take this over and run with it, but we'll let them make stuff like ShareBuilder and AmeriTrade to tax people into, inside of, and coming out of the system.  Oh wait, we already have that, we sell shares and folks take management fees, it's what the Group Buy section has turned into.  Scale it up, this is where mining is going apparently.  And we've seen how well buying shares in hardware and hardware/mining companies has worked out so far.

De/Centralization => Hundreds or thousands of AM Containers?  Are you kidding me?  Let's bullshit with some numbers and say an AMC (AM Container) produces 100TH.  We'll go balls to the wall and use a Genesisblock guesstimate for diff and say in April, trimming numbers down, diff will be around 8.5b.  Just for reference, if the KNC Neptune ships in April (in their nice six month window) for the previous-customer price of $10k, it will never break even.  So we're rolling out AMC's, KNC is rolling out Neptunes, a few others may have gotten their act together and started shipping as well.  Rather than adding 100-400GH per device we're starting to crank out devices by the TH. And with multi-TH devices you have larger power requirements, ruling out anyone who rents, students, even some homeowners. 

Sadly the more I think about it and conjecture with other business friends the more we agree the ship has already sailed for mining.  It isn't even a race to the bottom, it's a down and out death march and is being led by AMCs and Neptunes.  And unfortunately, per what Voodah said, I doubt those with "power and control" really give a damn about this.  They're all chasing the dream, but in this case the more dreamers (vendors) that win the more everyone loses.  This time next year a 100GH device will be akin to an AM stick in terms of BTC generation capabilities and we'll likely see a severe drying up of custom hardware, aftermarket sales (read: ebay, amazon), group buys, you name it. 

[empoweoqwj]

While Industrialization does not equal Centralization; it does certainly help because of the simple fact it prevents the small guy to contribute. That said, there's is no way of going forward without some degree of Industrialization. Saying No to Industrialization is only an idealistic and romantic stance at most.

However, the fact is we are already having centralization problems (GHash.io is the largest pool, with proven dishonest behavior, and borderline-scam prices) so this is a topic where serious thought needs to be put by those with power and control. It is in their (and everyone else's) best interest.

Too many to quote so I just picked this one to start from.

Preventing the small guy to contribute => So is this Wall Street 2.0?  That is what it sounds like.  Oh here, we'll let the barons take this over and run with it, but we'll let them make stuff like ShareBuilder and AmeriTrade to tax people into, inside of, and coming out of the system.  Oh wait, we already have that, we sell shares and folks take management fees, it's what the Group Buy section has turned into.  Scale it up, this is where mining is going apparently.  And we've seen how well buying shares in hardware and hardware/mining companies has worked out so far.

De/Centralization => Hundreds or thousands of AM Containers?  Are you kidding me?  Let's bullshit with some numbers and say an AMC (AM Container) produces 100TH.  We'll go balls to the wall and use a Genesisblock guesstimate for diff and say in April, trimming numbers down, diff will be around 8.5b.  Just for reference, if the KNC Neptune ships in April (in their nice six month window) for the previous-customer price of $10k, it will never break even.  So we're rolling out AMC's, KNC is rolling out Neptunes, a few others may have gotten their act together and started shipping as well.  Rather than adding 100-400GH per device we're starting to crank out devices by the TH. And with multi-TH devices you have larger power requirements, ruling out anyone who rents, students, even some homeowners. 

Sadly the more I think about it and conjecture with other business friends the more we agree the ship has already sailed for mining.  It isn't even a race to the bottom, it's a down and out death march and is being led by AMCs and Neptunes.  And unfortunately, per what Voodah said, I doubt those with "power and control" really give a damn about this.  They're all chasing the dream, but in this case the more dreamers (vendors) that win the more everyone loses.  This time next year a 100GH device will be akin to an AM stick in terms of BTC generation capabilities and we'll likely see a severe drying up of custom hardware, aftermarket sales (read: ebay, amazon), group buys, you name it. 

Your only point appears to be "gloom and doom" - so people don't sell mining equipment on eBay, I'm so shattered by this news ..... all industries mature and just have a  few big players. That's just what happens. Deal with it.

[spartan82]

Well looks like the dividends are on the decrease all the way up until gen3 release. I dont suppose any more hardware will be added to AM's mining operation in the meantime?

[empoweoqwj]

Well looks like the dividends are on the decrease all the way up until gen3 release. I dont suppose any more hardware will be added to AM's mining operation in the meantime?

Nope. That's it until Gen3. It will be a cold hard winter.