Bitcoin Forum

Updates:

PLEASE check the latest posts in this thread or our listing on cryptostocks.com to ensure you are reading the latest updates!

~(5/04)~ In the next 10 days we will be announcing how many shares we intend to release/create/sell for the rest of 2014, how they will be sold, what price, timeframes et al. Until then new shares will not be sold, we will be implementing this no later than 5/14 and will give advance notice detailing the process before the sale begins/resumes we're still giving advance notice, but we are implementing it pretty much immediately following the announcement/notice. If you have any questions or concerns feel free to message us or post on bitcointalk and we'll try to get back to you as quickly as we can.
~(4/17)~ We've updated the Chinese language section below to include recent updates. Also, we've posted an update on our bitcointalk thread about how we plan to offer shares in the future: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504128.msg6273602#msg6273602
~(4/08)~
- Just noticed our update from a few days ago didn't save. We have already entered our second month and we're happy to report that we've paid a 70% return in our first month! Going to be hard to match or top that for April but we're going to try.
- We also wanted to remind users that the 95% profit to shareholders promotion ended on 4/6 and are moving to the 65% profit to shareholders model outlined from the start. We may offer bonus dividends in the future again, but will never give shareholders less than 65%.
- Last, we wanted to fill users in as to how we will be selling shares. For the near-term, our plan is to sell 200 shares every other day (right after dividends are paid typically) at .006 btc. So in a given week 600 or 800 shares will be offered. Again this is only for the near term, we may taper this amount down and suspend sales at times but we will give advance notice for any changes.

~(3/27)~  
- Please see our latest notice under "announcements" or on our bitcointalk thread if you are a shareholder and make sure your contact info is working. We hope to never have to implement this plan but it's better to be prepared.

~(3/25)~ Dividends have just been paid out for 3/23 and 3/25 as two separate payments. Sale of shares will resume 3/26, however the IPO will be inactive (meaning others can still sell shares) for the time being, but we may re-enable it after giving an advance notice on our CS project page (and likely here on btctalk).
~(3/20)~ We've had people asking about us offering shares while the IPO is suspended; wanting to buy shares but at a reasonable price. To remedy this, and since we didn't give adequate advance notice about the IPO pause, we'll offer 500 shares at .0055btc, thus those wishing to sell right away can still undercut our price and those that want to buy in can get a fair price. When we do re-enable the IPO, it will likely be at this price. We're sorry for any confusion or disruption this has caused. Please let us know if you have any concerns by messaging us on bitcointalk or at jeff@coinreturn.me
~(3/19)~ Dividend payment shortly. Looks like Litecoin's party is over for now, treated us good though.
~(3/19)~ We're having some problems with our email client, if you need to contact us please either message us on bitcointalk or email jeff@coinreturn.me (which is actually through a different client). We'd also like to announce we are suspending the IPO for now to give users a chance to sell shares if they choose; the IPO will be inactive for at least one week.
~(3/13)~ 4th dividend has been paid. The dividend is just over .0004btc per share, which is just over an 8% return. So far we have managed a 20% return this week for our investors! We hope you are as excited about our first week performance as we are.
~(3/11)~ 3rd Dividend payout soon. We are also seeking to expand to the Chinese bitcoin community and are looking for a translator. If interested checkout our thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=511587
~(3/7)~ Shares have been issued and the IPO is active! Thanks to everyone who has bought shares and those who haven't, but still checked us out. The first dividend will be issued in a few hours so get your shares soon.
~(3/6)~ After internal discussion we've decided dividends will be paid every other day for the first month and to give shareholders 95% of the profits for the first month!
~(3/6)~ IPO launches in a few hours! get ready to get your shares!
~(3/4)~ Barring any major issues, the IPO will open and issue shares on March 7th.
This whitepaper and Coinreturn.me are still going to have more info added so check back for updates.
~(3/1)~ We welcome any questions, comments, and suggestions. Don't hesitate to contact Tom with your concerns: Tom@coinreturn.me


-------------orginal post:---------------

Hello all,

  My name is Tom and I'd like to announce a new listing on Cryptostocks.com that will be issuing shares in a few hours. The project is known as CoinReturn Financial (coinreturn.me (http://coinreturn.me)) Me and two other friends have basically been operating our own version of the project for almost two years and a couple months ago we decided to expand to the general public. We know that there is alot of mistrust of projects on Cryptostocks (and it is certainly warranted) but we hope we can address any concerns here (and, we hope, soon on our website which will have a public comments area) and we hope that our dividends will speak for us once we get off the ground. Our hope and a guiding principle is that shareholders shouldn't have to recieve 900 dividend payments to earn back their principle investment. With our strategies we hope to not only get investors their orginal investment back relatively fast, but to offer investors a steady stream of interest/ROI from proven trading techniques. We aren't offering 1000% returns overnight, but rather a realistic return that anyone familiar with EMAs and MACD indicator based trading can easily imagine what the returns would look like.

If your interested then checkout: https://cryptostocks.com/securities/101
 (https://cryptostocks.com/securities/101)





About us:
CoinReturn Financial can trace its roots back to the end of 2012 when three friends with experience trading in bitcoin decided to pool their resources to create a shared portfolio. Utilizing each our strengths as a programmer, an economics grad student, and a small-business owner we we’re able to develop and test investment and trading strategies to begin to gain a consistent return on our portfolio, regardless of how the Bitcoin market is performing. There have been some hiccups, pain, and nervous moments along the way but by September of 2013 we came to a strategy that has proven itself a winner.


Goal:
CoinReturn's portfolio is and will be a mixed investment fund designed to generate reliable, predictable returns. This portfolio will likely not double in size overnight or generate 5000% weekly ROI, the investment strategies within the portfolio are designed to avoid high-risk and instead generate a steady stream return. We consider turning 1 btc into 1.25 btc in a a week to be a success (of course, actual returns could be, and have been, more or less than this rate). Bottom line: if you are seeking short-term, high-risk, high-reward then this fund is not for you. If you are seeking medium or long term consistent earnings then keep reading.

Portfolio information:
The portfolio is designed to be 75% in traditional cryptocurrency markets, this means 75% will comprise of BTC/LTC or fiat at any given time. The remaining 25% will be used for more standard investments such as near-the-money stock options, traditional stock securities, and short to medium term secured business loans.

Strategy:
The trading strategies we use aren't any secret, but rather methods commonly employed by traders within any exchange (crypto, forex, stock exchanges). If you're a regular bitcoin trader you are probabley familiar with these indicators. We will apply this to both manual and automated trading platforms ("tradebots"). Both use an EMA as the basis for the buy/sell orders with guidance from an MACD and StochRSI; we typically use a 10/24 EMA at 30-minutes or 1 hour polling, this helps to maintain a macro view of where the market is going and consistently be on the right side of any daily volatility. This strategy does NOT use any sort of "pump-and-dumps" (i.e. manipulation) or rely on "hot tips" (i.e. rumors). And while we do capitalize on volatility, we trade with the aim of likely holding our position for at least an hour and sometimes a few days (depending on conditions).

Shares:
We are going to have an initial IPO of 10,000 shares at .005 btc per share. After this we will allow trading of shares and then remove share offerings. We may have a second and third round of issues from whatever the remaining shares are left from the orginal 10,000--- we aren't sure at this time but we will update once we reach a decision.

Dividends:
We intend to pay out dividends every thursday and monday for the first month, every other day for the first month. Then we will put to a shareholder vote the payout schedule from there.
Also for the first month, 95% of the profits will go to the shareholders in the form of dividends. After the third dividend in April is distrbuted we will then give 65% of the profits will go to share holders and the remaining 35% will go to the administrators. Any tx fees or taxes on earnings will be payed from our 35% share of the profits.
We cannot predict what returns will be, some weeks will be good and we'll be able to dole out a nice dividend but, inevitably, there will be times where we are flat or have taken a loss. In the event of a loss or zero gain at the time dividends are due we will pay out a "sorry we suck" dividend of .01 btc to be split among shareholders. We have set aside 1 btc of our own personal funds for this and the purpose is: 1, basically to let shareholders know we didn't forget to payout dividends. 2, to give shareholders something, since we feel we owe it to you. 3, We want to have a consistant payout system/record; avoid "rolling over" and shifting dividend payout dates.




FAQs:
 ~ Why not use "pump and dumps" on alt currencies (FRK, UTC, UNO, QRK, etc)? This strategy relies on manipulation and opens up the potential for massive losses, whether your 'leading' one or 'joining in' on one.

 ~ What exchanges will be used? BTC-E and BitStamp. These offer fairly low trading fee's and have an established history. We're open to other exchanges but we'd like to be sure of where we are putting our money (this is why we abandoned Gox after the Wells Fargo fiasco/seizure)

 ~ Will the funds be traded manually or by "bots"?
Both. The "bots" are based off aido/ATPs design but are largely our own design. Both manual trading and bots will use essentially the same strategy but we use both as a means to insure we don't rely solely on one or the other (and as a means of friendly competition between two of our three founders)

 ~ What if I don't want to invest but would like to learn more about your strategies/understanding the indicators?
We are always happy to help people learn the basics, even if you don't want to invest. Feel free to send a message to Tom and one of us will respond (Tom@coinreturn.me)

 ~ Who are you guys?
We are Tom Mica, Jeff Lombard, and Tony Dewitt. We are three friends in our late 20's who discovered bitcoin in 2011 and have been hooked since. We've seen regulators shut down other projects here on CS when people disclosed their info so we'd like to say where we're from but are a bit nervous. We are not saying we live in the U.S. but we have all visited Tacoma, Washington and found it to be lovely. Legally this portfolio is located in, and managed from the nation of Cyprus.

Have a question you want to see here? Message Tom at the above address.
Have an idea for what should be here or on our website? Please contact us with your suggestion and be sure to include a btc wallet address because if we implement it we will try to give you a tip for your idea!


Coming soon:
- Screenshots of mechanics of EMA/MACD trading/crosses
- Implementation of a delayed stream of trade history
 - A public comments form or forum on our website
 - Polls on here and our website


IMPORTANT:
Trading and/or purchase of securities "shares" of this financial instrument, CoinReturn (RETURN), involves substantial risks, including complete possible loss of principal plus other losses and is not suitable for all members of the public. You should make an independent judgment as to whether trading is appropriate for you in light of your financial condition, investment experience, risk tolerance, and other relevant factors. We will take reasonable measures to ensure accuracy of the content on this web site, however, we do not guarantee its accuracy, and will not accept liability for any damage, losses or lost profits which may arise directly or indirectly from the content or your inability to access this web site. By purchasing shares of Coinreturn (RETURN) you agree to assume liability for any potential losses and understand this investment bears risk of loss of value. Purchase of this security is not legal in all areas, by purchasing you acknowledge that you are within a jurisdiction that legally permits purchase of such a fund. The content on this web site is subject to change at any time without notice.


Last updated: 3/4/14 02:45

Can you please post under your real bitcointalk name and not under an alt with 1 post and 0 activity so we know who's behind the listing.

I am "familiar with EMAs and MACD", and I can say with 100% certainty that they tell me nothing whatsoever about what your "returns would look like".


So 25% of the "portfolio" will be short BTC, invested in fiat-denominated instruments on exchanges which you haven't mentioned, and hedged against increases in BTC via mechanisms that you haven't spelled out, meeting AML/KYC requirements in ways you haven't elucidated.

Addressing these kinds of basics directly could help improve the plausibility of what you're proposing and help it possibly, maybe -- probably not, but perhaps -- even pass the sniff test.

how much money will you be trading on gox

1st part - We debated this---as to what kind of number to put in for potential returns on investment---and decided against putting anything specific in. Too low an estimate and investors might not buy, too high and they might get angry and underperforming. Generally speaking, the more volatile the market, the better for us. We've had some good weeks where we've doubled our holdings and others where the best we could do was 5%. We'd put our expected range at 10%-50% weekly but don't hold me to that, plenty of weeks could be better or worse.

2nd part - The 25% isn't exactly short/hedged against BTC but more of a diversification. We will be trading securities via TradeKing.com (formerly Zecco) which handles markets like NYSE, NASDAQ, other main exchanges internationally and OTC stocks in the U.S. This will be a mix of traditional hold/shorts and put/call options that are somewhat close to whatever symbols current price. The funds through TradeKing won't be to any crazy penny stocks and will generally be on companies with a fair size market cap or larger (think $250mill+).
Another part of this 25% will be in mid-april and will be a collaterized loan to a brick and morter business with terms at 1-year and 10% interest. The loan, if it materializes, is to one of our founder's ex-wife's boyfriend who has opened up an e-cig shop and has had a good deal of success but could use the capital to either expand inventory, hire employees, and/or open 2nd shop. Two of our members have already loaned him money last year(from our personal money) and have all payments on time. This loan will be secured with his car (which is worth $8500 resale and the loan won't exceed $5000) though since it involves other peoples money.

Hope this helps answer your concerns, thanks for posting.

-tom

All of it, duh!

But no we plan on trading on Bitstamp and btc-e since those are the most reliable exchanges we know of. Of course we have the same concerns as anyone else that holds funds on an online wallet but we can only do much to allievate this sadly. One thing we plan on doing is, when we know we will be holding alot of fund in BTC for at least for the foreseeable near-term, we will withdraw it to our offline wallets. Another thing we are in the process of is moving alot of our own funds to different wallets on our computers to use as an 'emergency fund' in case something goes very wrong. (think FDIC insurance) We are also determining at what point/how much to keep a portion of investors funds offline for this same purpose.

Thanks for the sarcastic, rhetorical question ;) it does give us a chance to address more things.

-tom

I (Tom) personally don't have an account here. I think one or both of the other founders have accounts established here and I sent them a txt passing along the message and have them post with theirs.

Thanks for the input.

Pardon me for being inquisitive, but if you're able to get 125% / week, thus more than 3000% a year, why bother with looking for investors?

Maybe I mis-spoke/typo'd. Is there a specific part where you got 125% weekly? I re-read the whitelist and my posts and didn't see that but if I missed it could you let me know so I can fix that

To your question though, if we were getting 125% every week then we'd probably not need investors since we'd be busy swimming in our pools of money. As I said before though a really good week for us is 100% but some weeks are only 5% and a very rough estimate of "average' returns would be a range of 10%-50%, and even still some weeks where we lose money or basically break even. As a whole though we've come out ahead consistantly enough to feel comfortable expanding our portfolio to the public. We think if we can combine a good part of our funds with investors then the sum of the profits will be very much worthwhile to us. Bear in mind we (after the first month) are going to keep 35% of the profits, alot of projects on Cryptostocks give 90% of the profits to shareholders (supposedly anyway).
Please let me know if I didn't answer your orginal question or if you have anymore questions.

-Tom

Ok thanks for your answer, I misinterpreted "We consider turning 1 btc into 1.25 btc in a week to be a success" as your view of what is an average week's return. (By 125%, I meant the original 100% + 25% profit)

This do seem interesting.

for a moment i thought you guys were Tom and Tony from tastytrade! xD
if you guys are half as dedicated as them, then im sure this investment will be worthit  ;D

Have you considered NAV/U control like BTCinvest?

This seemed to ensure value and share price were in alignment. This is something i would recommend

You guys seems honests and your plan is quite detailed. I bought some shares. I hope the profits will be sufficients to get a full return on investment as soon as possible. Good luck ;)

i have just bought all the outstanding shares in CoinReturn

stand by for our announcement in two weeks

My point was that the original statement was nonsense. Saying that if you know about EMAs and MACD then you'll know what the returns look like is exactly analogous to saying that if you know what an average temperature looks like, then you'll know how many cherry tomatoes I'm going to grow this year. Since EMAs are statistical properties of markets, and average temperatures are statistical properties of weather, then yes, sure, they have some bearing on investment returns and cherry tomato returns, respectively, but to say that one somehow sheds light on predictions of the other is pure nonsense.


On the contrary, selling BTC to buy fiat -- regardless of whether that's to invest in equities, options, fiat-denominated debt, or cherry tomatoes -- is exactly what it means to take a short a position in BTC.

Sniff test failed, utterly and completely.

^ wow strict audit
also going on with my other investment, rental starter at havelock

If you don't need investors if you were getting 25% every week in return i can't see that if your true average range of return rather is in the 10-50% weekly return it would be any different, you would still "be busy swimming in our pool of money" as you put it.

(10+50)/2 is 30 by the way, 30% is even more than 25%, just saying....

Can't say we're familiar with this. Didn't find much info about the mechanics when we searched but if you have a link to how it works we'll gladly look into it.



Thanks for the positive feedback and buying some shares! We hope profits will be sufficient to get you a full return soon!




orly? I'll be sure to look out for your announcement  ::)

NAV is Net Asset Value and NAV/U Net Asset Value per Unit(share). So if a share price is 0.005 like in your case and cryptostocks takes 0.15% in fees when people buy shares then after the first share is sold and before you started doing any trades the start NAV would be 0.0049925 btc as that is the total amount your positions would be worth 0.0049925/1 (share). If you for example after a few days and with for example 100 sold shares (0.49925) and before the dividend is payed would have turned that to 0.575 btc then the NAV/U would be 0.575/100 = 0.00575 btc and if it was time to pay dividend to shareholders it would then be 0.0007125 btc, ignoring what fees would eat up on the way back to cryptostocks.

NAV/U wouldn't be that useful to report once a week or something thou as you are to pay out all profit either in the form of dividend to shareholders and the rest to the administrators anyway.

Fair enough, we certainly wouldn't be able to meet SEC requirements if this were a traditional security and respect your decision to not invest with us; bitcoin investments are risky and murky so we can't fault you.

As for your first point, we agree with what you are saying which is why we've tried to make it clear that we cannot give a number for what returns are going to look like. I think we need to re-phrase the orginal point: "...can easily imagine what returns would look like" in the orginal statement. I think you read this as us saying you (as someone familiar) should be able to imagine a specific, singular value. But however, this was intended to mean that those familiar with EMAs and such would imagine that our returns can vary a great deal; not[/i] "those familiar with EMAs can easily imagine what our returns will be/are going to be", "...can easily imagine a specific single value for our returns", "can easily imagine our returns will be 40%", "can easily imagine our returns will be how many cherry tomatos a homeless person in Portland can fit in their mouth on odd-numbered days in October"
We could have worded the orginal statement alot better and are not so much saying 'you misunderstood us' but rather we miscommunicated to you. We're going to change that part of the text--- if you think you know a good way to re-state what is trying to be conveyed then feel free to share.

and just to touch on your second point: overall we have a more traditional background in finance and investing and still often use various term's traditional definitions rather than the btc community definitions. The traditional finance definition of short means borrowing a security/asset from another party to purchase later with the expectation the security will be worth less when repayment is due. This is why its called 'short' because you are 'short' the original asset (same conext as"I'm $4 short of $100"). Of course, as i'm guessing you already know, forex traders use 'short' differently as well but I'll let you cover that if you choose to.

Anyway, we still appreciate the feedback since it gives us a chance to improve (changing the wording) and wish you the best of luck with your investments.

-Tom and Jeff

You'll forgive me, I hope, if the feelings of crankiness you're managing to generate show through a bit here...


This has nothing to do with meeting SEC requirements; it has to do with satisfying the barest minimum of demonstrating an accurate grasp of basic concepts.


Here again, this has nothing to do with giving a specific number for returns; it has to do with spouting acronyms in a nonsensical context and either 1) not knowing what they mean, or 2) hoping that nobody else knows what they mean.


Of course I do, but I do not provide free consulting in this sort of context.


Wow, now you're just insulting people's intelligence while simultaneously looking silly.

You are talking about a BTC-denominated "investment". When you sell BTC out of the coffers of a BTC-denominated investment, you are liable for ultimately replenishing those coffers with BTC. The equity of that BTC-denominated investment is -- shocker -- valued in BTC. You don't get to put USD equities, USD loans to friends, and fluffy white kittens on the balance sheet and just value them however you want to value them -- you value them in BTC. This has nothing to do with special "btc community definitions".

Since you've steadfastly avoided the question of how you intend to hedge your short positions in BTC, all while insisting that you're not really going to be short BTC at all, you might enjoy the article "How to Lose Money with a Bitcoin Investment, Part 2: The Unhedged Short (http://psychologicalinvestor.com/lib/real-markets/lose-money-bitcoin-unhedged-short-174/)". Or even "How to Short Bitcoin -- Without Just Being Silly (http://psychologicalinvestor.com/lib/real-markets/short-bitcoin-193/)".

First dividend has been paid out! We started trading just in time to take advantage of the recent slide ~$645 to $610 (btc-e prices) and with the bit of volatility inbetween were able to net about .093btc which came out to 0.00030041BTC per share. Sure it's not amazing but we hope you, as shareholders, find it a respectable enough start to stick with us.

On the contrary, it's quite amazing. I'd have been more than satisfied with 3% profit / week ;)
Thank you and congratulations!

See here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=124441.0), OP.

No one cares, if they did it would be stickied go back to your home on whore island you smelly pirate hooker!

2nd dividend has been paid. A total of 0.0928 at 0.00018870 per share. Thanks for your support, we're about to hit the 500 share mark. Next dividend is 3/11

Can we expect a linear progression on the total of dividends as well? The dividends are actually good because there are only a few shares sold yet, but what will happen when all 10,000 shares will be sold?

The issuing company will pay "dividends" for a few weeks and then disappear.

I also have concerns regarding how KYC/AML requirements will interact with the operation of this fund if it involves investment in securities traded on regulated exchanges.  It's clear that most crypto-investment schemes fall on the wrong side of nearly every country's securities regulations, but for the most part they don't go stirring up the beehive.  In order to get funds on a regulated exchange, you're going to either have to lie on compliance forms, or just get blocked from every trading platform.  Both of those tend to end pretty badly.  Is there something I'm missing?

That is our hope of course. However some of the initial funds included not only funds from public shareholders but our (the operators of the project) 'matching funds' as well, which did give a boost to the size of the profit of the first dividends. Our orginal intent was to hold private shares and to find a way to put this funding through CS but it just wasn't practical; so we basically just gave these funds to the portfolio, this way we could start trading and generating a profit right away. These funds aren't "separate" or anything (as in we are going to withdraw them or think of them as "ours"), they are now part of the portfolio.
 The short answer here is we hope to be paying out a per share rate similar to the first three dividends (hopefully better of course though) and if the portfolio performs similarly, they should be. As the other strategies get underway they could change things, for the better we'd hope. For instance, if we recieve a payment on the first of every month then the first dividend of the month would be a good bit larger---but again this is more down the road at this point.
Hope this helps answer things for you, feel free to ask us any other questions

Given how many projects on CryptoStocks have ended up like that we can't blame you for thinking so. If I were in your place I'd think the same thing. Our hope is to be one of the few good ones that manages to stick around (autotrade, CCC, cryptsy, etc).

-tom

No, you're right on the money. After some debate in the past week we've decided to scrap this part of the portfolio for the very reasons you touched on. We'll be updating this on our site and listing soon. If your curious about how we planned on going about this originally we can detail it but basically it was too cumbersome, impractical, and posed too much risk legally and financially. We intended to start into this area later on and with less funds so its no major loss (and is probably better for the portfolio in the long run)

- Tom and Jeff

It's just looking like lets pay dividend for 1-2 weeks and run away with the money!
What is speaking for your Shares, why should we purchase it??
autotrade is just a better form to invest, because it's save, and this doesn't seems like it.... or can you prove me wrong?

That's an absolutely valid point and we must admit we certainly have been impressed by Autotrade. We can't speak to their safety since none of us know Chinese but the fact that they haven't ran-off with the $1/2 million they've got says something. We don't know what Autotrade has done to prove their reliability other than sticking around and still paying out dividends but that's pretty much all we can do to prove ourselves. Our initial shareholders have already got over 25% of their initial investment back and, so far, we've managed about a 20% weekly ROI. So if we're going to run off with investors money then we're pretty bad at since we've given so much of it back to them. We can't honestly say that every week is going to be a great return and the dividends will always be huge, more than likely some weeks the dividends are going to suck; but we think we've got a model that will do well consistently enough to make you feel like your investment has been worthwhile and without regret.
With that though, we completely understand that we haven't yet proven ourselves and that any investor on CS has plenty of reason to be suspect of every project (Altswap, Green, DIVC, Bitbond, anyone?) but as time goes on and we keep paying out regularly and letting everyone know whats going on each step of the way we hope we can earn your trust. If you don't want to buy today, tomorrow, or next week that's totally okay; because we will still be here next month and after paying out dividends. We wish there was a better way to prove you wrong but, like any investment vehicle, time is going to be the only thing that truly makes our case.

how about a public profile..more transparency whose behind the team, so that if one day worst case scenario you run with the money, the shareholders can sue somebody something, not just verbally but literally in a court
private funded company=privacy
publicfunded company=transparancy

Yes but you can get more btc, then more guys are willing to buy... so more btc for you
My mainpoint is, you guys don't give us any proof, what you are doing. ZERO
I can make up a story too, and give out random dividends and then leave, it's not that hard to be honest!

This does seem too good to be true, but investors please keep in mind that the current very high profits are greatly helped by this, and does not indicate that CoinReturn is a ponzi:


The OP is way more open to communication, and seems quite a bit more intelligent , than the typical scammer on Cryptostocks (I do tend to judge potential scammers by how they write, it might be naive, but it has worked very well thus far). This makes me feel like its worth the risk, to either lose some money or see it get doubled in a matter of months. I believe the odds are 25% for the former and 75% for the latter, which are way better odds than the gambling sites ;)

Why have you stopped selling shares?

Sorry we haven't responded to the other posts yet. We suspended the IPO for a few reasons: we wanted to give investors a chance to sell their shares if they so choose, to see what the equilibrium price would be, and to give us a little weekend break from work outside managing the portfolio---will still be trading but two of us have prior commitments this weekend and we don't want to leave a bunch of btc in our CS account incase a couple hundred shares are sold. Also, as mentioned a few days ago 3/23's dividend will be rolled into 3/25's. Also if you message us or post here this weekend we might be slow getting back to you.
Tentatively our plan is to suspend the IPO only for a week and then we will resume it, likely at the same price of .005. We don't want anyone to feel like they are "stuck" with shares, even if you like our project maybe you need to sell some btc in a hurry or need liquidity for some other reason.
So it's a number of factors, kind of a mini-spring break of sorts. We'll keep everyone posted as best we can as always.

LOL you guys are awesome

Funny, funny shit

Which part is so funny? Based on your previous post we're guessing your "awesome" isn't quite sincere.... We're just trying to be honest, if the share price attains a higher equilibrium we'd like to know, that may be greedy but that's how markets and business works. We don't want to leave the IPO active if it doesn't have our full attention since that's not fair to shareholders and we said we'd always try to avoid keeping btc stored online whenever possible. And if any shareholders are having second thoughts/aren't happy with the dividend rate/need liquidity we'd like to give them a chance to sell their shares if they so choose.
We don't have a problem if you don't trust us yet or don't like us but we prefer criticism to be constructive so we can do things as best as we can.

lol

laffrafflery?  i dunno if that is a word yet

shareprice up to da moon  ;D

sorry, dont understand your operation right now.

This is just an announcement about the plan, not an actual activation or implementation notice!

           Due to the recent announcements regarding vircurex shutting down and suspending withdrawals (which also owns this site) we thought it'd be best to develop a crisis-management plan should the situation ever warrant it. We are going to release a poll to see how many people don't have access to the e-mail associated with CS, if this includes you we strongly suggest you message us on bitcointalk.org and let us know what e-mail address you have associated with CS so we can verify your ownership of shares and how we should contact you (i.e. a different e-mail). We will be backing up our shareholders list regularly for the foreseeable future. Some shareholders show up as "anonymous", meaning you don't have your CS settings set to show e-mail to owners we strongly advise you change this ASAP.
          If CS ever stops operations or a similar end-crisis occurs our crisis dispursement plan will go in effect. The crisis disbursement plan, or CDP, is this: to move all associated funds into a single wallet and then immediatly payout the sum evenly. So, for example, if there are 2,500 shares out there and we have 12.5btc in funds we will pay out .005 btc for each share (so a user with 2 shares would get .01btc, a user with 25 would get .125btc, etc). We will try to contact everyone and ask for what wallet address they want payment sent to and to let everyone know what the single address is so everyone can see payouts on the blockchain.
We may make some changes to this plan but this is the basic premise of what it would look like, we'll keep you posted.

As always if you have any questions, comments, feedback, suggestions, they are all welcome.

Hopefully this plan is never put into motion but we owe it to you to be prepared.

Hi, do you plan to resume selling shares again soon?
You'd said you would be selling again on the 26th (yesterday) but so far you haven't. Did you decide to delay/cancel in light of your latest announcement?

They are selling them at 0.006
Not sure what advantage they get from selling higher though.

I wasn't sure if that was them selling them at 0.006 or if it was normal shareholders trying to sell for a profit. They'd said:

"we'll offer 500 shares at .0055btc, thus those wishing to sell right away
 can still undercut our price and those that want to buy in can get a
fair price. When we do re-enable the IPO, it will likely be at this
price."

So I didn't want to spend 0.006 a share if they were just about to drop back down to 0.0055 again...

''it will likely be at this price'' ;)
I did see their name for the sales at 0.006, under Transactions by Owner.

Aha, thanks Lynn  :)

Keen eyes you guys have ;)
What we've been doing is selling shares in chunks at .006 so we're usually undercutting everyone else but still allowing it to be sold higher by you guys. We're hoping we can fit in to a new equilibrium that makes everyone happy but at the same time isn't too high to sell our shares at; this way those who joined us early can seal in some profits and we can get a better valuation but still be able to sell shares at a good price overall.
We'll be putting some more shares in at .006 but we'll wait for some at the .006-.007 range to clear

Thanks, I've got my buy order in now for 0.006  ;)

Your strategy is working marvellously well, the trade volume has grown considerably since you stopped selling shares at IPO price.
Congratulations ;)
(Plus, giving us these good day-trading opportunities is quite appreciated :D )

the op is so long

i think you should shorter it

It's important to read as much as possible about something before investing. Or else you'll only get scammed ;)

We appreciate the feedback but we're going to keep it as is, we want potential investors to have as much information as possible.

On an unrelated note 3/29's dividend has just been paid out and is a good example for showing where our dividends come from (and how we could have done alot better the past two days). If you take a look at the following image you can get an idea of how things work:
http://coinreturn.me/img/divex.jpg

You can see the vertical line markings for sell points at about 575 and buy at 510, so if we would have taken say 8btc, sold at $575 for a sum of $4600 then bought back in at 510, that's an easy 1.01 bitcoin (- fees). We did more or less do this but we had money in litecoin and could have done better timing (though some is still in fiat waiting to "buy in"). So 3/29's dividend was 0.58btc or so, certainly not bad but we could have done better.

We wanted to highlight this to show an example of how our dividend income works since alot of people find it to be "unrealistically high". Of course our dividends will not always be great, if the market is flat or if we have poor timing then the dividends will seem a bit more "realistic" let's say. But we hope this shows that it's really not that unfathomable to have the kind of returns we've been having.


-tom

return is nice  ;D

This is a pre-first month update---just letting everyone know we're about to come to the close of our first month since our IPO.

- Given the increasing frequency of successful break-ins of accounts on bitcoin related sites (online wallets, cryptostocks, etc) we'd like to assure everyone we use, and would like to encourage everyone else to use, secure, unique passwords that aren't stored on any of our computers. Nor do we use any third party trading programs or similar suspect programs (i.e. prone to keylogging). Never say never, but we like to think that no one unauthorized is getting into our cryptostocks or trading accounts anytime soon:

http://coinreturn.me/img/bettersafe.jpg

https://howsecureismypassword.net/ and http://passwordmeter.com are good simple sites to check the security of your passwords. If you do prefer to store your passwords on your computer then PGP is your friend (just don't store your privkey password too!)

Anyone else ever wonder what it'd be like if the bitcoin network were used for password-cracking?


- Secondly, we'd like to remind everyone that the period of 95% profits to investors is ending soon (can't believe it's almost been a month since we launched!) 4/5 will be the last dividend at 95%. Then we move to a 65% profit to investors model. Our dividends seem to be well received by you guys and so far we've managed to payout a 60% return to our first shareholders so we hope many of you will stick with us. We'd also like to move to a twice weekly (i.e. every monday & thurs) payout for dividends but if our shareholders have strong objection to this we're open to comment.
If anyone else has any other suggestions or ideas to make CoinReturn better we're always happy to accept the input and implement what we can.


Good luck investing,
Jeff, Tom, and Tony
CoinReturn Financial

Update:
We've had some requests for more shares to be made available and have been surprised by how large the buy side of the orderbook is growing. We are aware our shareholders are likely pleased by this, however we don't want our share price to go too high too fast* but at the same time we must look out for the long term health of the portfolio. We said we are going to only sell 200 shares every other day for the near-term and we are sticking to that, but what we are doing is developing an algorithm to determine how many shares to sell. What does this mean exactly? Here's a (very rough) example of how it could work: say the orderbook has 2000 bids for shares and 500 asks, 400 which way above the last trade price and only 1000 bids are at or above .006, we would then take realistic bids*1/2 minus realistic asks and find how many shares to sell. So, 1000(.5) - 100 = 400 shares put up. So in a situation with lower demand: say 200 bids above .006 and 80 asks within X% of the last trade price would look like: 200(.5) - 80 = 20 shares would be put up for sale then.
Obviously this is a very crude example and what we come up with will be a bit different but it gives you an idea of what we have in mind; something to keep the price stable but growing.
Last few things to note about this: we will likely still only sell every other day, we will let users know when we have a possible formula/algorithm and will post it so shareholders can make suggestions/comments, when we do have a final version we will make it public so users can verify we are using it, and there's still a good chance that we aren't going to just keep selling shares/will still taper off sales for the same reason: to keep the price stable but growing.


*For anyone wondering why we don't want the share price to fly up fast: this can be bad if we decide to issue more shares in the future (like 2000 at once, not our regular day to day) since we could tank the price, if a user or users with alot of shares decides to sell they could tank the price and make people think the price is "crashing" which scares off bids and attracts asks, if a someone spends 1 btc on 20 shares they will find the dividend much less attractive and unfair than someone who bought 133 shares for 1 btc.



tl;dr
We're going to move from offering 100 shares/day to offering shares based on how much demand is out there.


Let us know how this all sounds to you; as always we welcome your questions/comments/feedback and appreciate your involvement.

-Tom and Jeff

Very confusing everything  :( Cant you make the IPO like all the others? So you are in IPO but you dont sell shares directly for a certain price. Are you going to sell your shares, lets say for 0.006 in the future or continue on the basis of the higher the bid the more likely you can buy the share. The ask side is about 30 % higher than the bid side, the spread is enormous, even for cryptostocks.

I would really like to understand, what you are doing guys.


Was trying to buy shares the two last time, but I did not succeed. I still dont understand your system. Does anyone understand the algorythm? For me its like a lottery: make a high bid but not to high... and there are bids with up to 100 shares coming and disappearing.  ??? Its like someone buying 100 shares up from the bid side and then selling it like 30 % higher, but how to get the shares? The time of releasing the shares is quiete random or? The amount is random, (like algorythm). So is it more a lotteryscam, by selling them for higher price?


Question to CoinReturn: Is someone of you buying the IPO shares for lets say 0.007 and selling them during the day for 0.009 as you know when they will be released?

And besides that, when the IPO price is 0.006 its a pretty scammy system to sell the IPO shares around 15 % higher as the IPO price  ::)  8) 8)


today there were alot of bids like (50 pieces) until 0.00770 and then:

...
0.00771 200
0.00770 100
0.00699 50
...

I was in the 0.0770 bid inside. There were just 10 shares sold from 0.0770. So around 250 shares were sold in total. Why was the demand of 150 shares under 0.0770 to less for the algorythm? There were stil alot sharebids below 0.0699. .... ???

Can someone explain, please.

can you explain on that example your algorythm please. How many shares will be sold and for which price. Whats about the bids from 0.007501 down to 0.0060 what cant be seen?

Buy orders (BTC)
Price   Quantity   Amount
0.008001   1   0.008001
0.008000   1   0.008000
0.007800   7   0.054600
0.007700   286   2.202200
0.007621   41   0.312461
0.007620   5   0.038100
0.007531   8   0.060248
0.007510   2   0.015020
0.007505   4   0.030020
0.007501   10   0.075010

As an early investor and a continuous investor, I've been buying shares since the IPO price of 0.005btc/share up to 0.008btc/share. I feel like this is a clear and definite indication of the success of the operations. As I am aware that CoinReturn's operations require more and more investments to have greater and greater performance , which is the primary reason for the continuous sale of remaining shares every two days to reduce the share market instability and steady growth of CoinReturn's value. I feel the steady and consistent release of 200 shares every other day is fine and does not require a complicated algorithm of distribution.

Therefore due to the growth of CoinReturn and its success, unrealistic prices as low as 0.006btc/share - 0.007btc/share would discourage existing investors of it's market potential and future. As a consistent investor like myself, I enjoy constant rise in share prices even if it means having to pay more myself, however ludicrous prices that were to damage the stock value are discouraged as well.

I, for one, don't feel safe buying over 0.006 while still in the IPO phase. Steady growth in the share price is great, but not when the issuer sells systematically hundreds of shares every two-days at market price; as soon as the high buy walls will have got their shares, if they are not renewed, the price will inevitably go back to 0.006. That uncertainty is a shame really, as I trust this operation and its long-term success, and would like to be able to buy more shares at the original price (well, the second price, since they were 0.005 initially).

I do agree that there is always the uncertainty of whether or not the buy walls will maintain themselves. then again, there is always an uncertainty in be it trading cryptos or trading crypto-Stocks. If the current market price is say 0.0075btc/share then wouldn't it be beneficial to the whole operation to sell shares to fill that order to gain more capital for further investments. That way, performance is also steadily improving in terms of dividends being higher and higher per share, which also in-turn increase the value of the individual shares.

That aside, I see that the popularity of this operation is becoming more and more noticed by other investors. This trade history kind of shocked me:

April 19, 2014 09:50   Sell   0.009500   14   0.133000   BTC
April 19, 2014 09:39   Buy   0.010000   1   0.010000   BTC
April 19, 2014 09:32   Buy   0.100000   5   0.500000   BTC
April 19, 2014 09:32   Buy   0.010000   83   0.830000   BTC

I guess someone REALLY wanted some RETURN shares.

Wow! Lesson to be learnt from that: always have some ridiculously overpriced sell-orders, just in case ;)

Buying more shares at a lower price would have the same bottom-line effect, wouldn't it?

We'll comment more after the holiday weekend but we're growing a bit concerned as well. There are only 250 bids at >.006btc and we just saw that .10btc buy order which is truly absurd---we have a hard time believing that this is purely legitimate demand and not someone trying to manipulate the price for their own gain. (for anyone interested in looking at the orderbook: https://cryptostocks.com/api/get_orderbook.xml?ticker=return )
 We haven't even put in the formula/alorgithm yet, we've still been doing 200 every other day.... which we thought seemed like on the high end of qty of shares to be offering. Normally that pushes the price back down to close to .006 or should at least keep it from going like this. Yes the demand is certainly going up but these numbers just don't add up. If two people with 150 shares decide to sell at market then the price is going to come crashing down fast since there isn't really any support for these prices (hence why we suspect manipulation)
We'd like to avoid re-enabling the IPO since it basically "traps" shareholders and doesn't let the market set the price and give shareholders a chance to profit if they don't want to or can't wait for dividends. Given the circumstances we might have to do that or either offer a large chunk of shares to fend off the manipulation. We might try one then the other but we're going to be doing it shortly so please don't be alarmed if the IPO goes back on or if a large number of shares goes on the book at .006btc. This post is going to serve as advanced notice that we may offer more shares or temporarily re-enable IPO soon, we'd prefer to give better notice but we need to act quickly. Hopefully just our announcing our intention is enough to put the price back to reality.

We're glad to see so much interest right away from shareholders and that there is more concern for the long-term health than being happy to make a quick buck. Sorry we can't offer post-by-post replies and if this post is a bit all over the place but we're figuring out what action to take and (hopefully) still enjoy the holiday weekend.

We we're hoping the last post would be enough to create some downward pressure without us actually having to sell any shares but it hasn't moved much. So what were going to do is put some sells in at .006 and still try to not to exceed our 600-800 range for the week nor suppress real demand/the share price. Hopefully some more sell orders show up around .0100 to keep a cap on the spikes. Obviously if we go too far in the wrong direction we'll pull back on the 200 shares at .006 and offer less, the hope here is to keep it growing from .006.

Thanks for your understanding and feel free to offer feedback/input as to the best course of action.

That's not a bad idea either, maybe offer a significant amount at 0.006btc just like what you've done with 500 shares at 0.0055btc.

Now its getting even more confusing.

So what is your market-price ipo-share price? What price do I have to pay, not to lose money, by price falling under ipo-price?

is it 0.007?

0.006 ?????  ??? ??? ???
or is it 0.008

Today it was 0.008
yesterday 0.0077
and tomorrow ??

Guys, I just dont want lose money. And this looks like the perfect way of losing alot. Today i will buy ipo share for 0.008 and tomorrow its 0.007

What about all this guys buying market-price ipo-shares for 0.008 or 0.007, when you saying you are going to restablish the real 0.006 ipo-price next week? From 0.008 to 0.006 thats 30 % LOSS

Best Luck in finding people, who cant count  :o ::)  there are alot of them  :-\

Other projects are offering their shares by demand in blocks

like

0.0025   5000
0.00275  5000
0.00300  5000
0.003125 5000

or
0.0005 500000
0.0006 100000
0.0007 100000
0.0008 100000
0.0009 100000
0.001  100000

-so they increased their shareprice
-giving to the investor an idea of ipo share price (like median is between 0.00275 and 0.003125)

Your system might work too. Just make clear, what your way is and stick to it. Sorry to offend you by highlightnend and bold letters. I am sure your intentions are good.

When we sell shares we put them in at .006 regardless of what bids are above it, so some might go for .0085 and others go for .0075. The price, like anything else, will have some fluctuations but if you buy at .008 it shouldn't be too hard to collect dividends and sell for close to the same price. The only person losing money should be the person that bought at .10btc/share. We haven't had the IPO open for quite some time and if you got IPO shares then it couldn't have been more than .006.
I'm not sure what you mean by "what is your market-price ipo-price" a market price is whatever the shares are currently going for, the IPO price is what we sold shares for at the start---.005btc---the IPO is over and we don't have plans to re-enable the IPO unless we really have to.

-tom

We sold shares before dividend payout today and are looking at different ways to spread out our share offerings...didn't think enough people were paying attention to us selling shares after each dividend but your right, enough people did start to take notice.
The share price has leveled off for now and were guessing itll start to steadily grow, if it stagnates or starts dipping we'll offer less or no shares. Hopefully when we start using the formula things should work out to allow steady growth.

Ok. thanks for you comment. i will wait for a longer track of record. waiting aint wrong after 100 % share rise in one month. are you going to release more shares after the 10000?

Probably. Our intent and hope with shares is to sell in a piecemeal approach; we hope to not ever issue 1000+ shares at a time or re-enable IPO (though we're not taking this off the table if a situation ever arises where it makes sense to do so). We plan on selling whatever demand warrants---if there are few asks within ~50% of the last price but alot of bids within ~50% of last price we'll sell more; if the situation is reversed then we'll sell little or none.
Which takes us to our next post....

a few updates:
- It looks like there is alot of natural demand picking up which is good of course. However we're still concerned there is a bit of manipulation going on, we noticed an interesting series of transactions:
April 23, 2014 18:16   Buy   0.014900   2   0.029800   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.012000   10   0.120000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   5   0.050000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   10   0.100000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   12   0.120000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   15   0.150000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:14   Buy   0.009999   10   0.099990   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:14   Buy   0.009900   3   0.029700   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Buy   0.009850   12   0.118200   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Buy   0.009849   2   0.019698   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008600   169   1.453400   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008602   24   0.206448   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008603   5   0.043015   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008604   2   0.017208   BTC
It's possible different buyers/sellers did these transactions minutes apart but trades on CS are usually spaced out a bit. Assuming it is one person then it appears someone cashed out ~1.75btc then bought in about .8btc in hopes of "pumping" the price. If so they stopped short (or created themselves:) of the next ask order which was something like 0.03 btc; likely in hopes someone would get in on the "frenzy". This is something you commonly see in lower volume coins on Cryptsy, Polonex, Coinmarket, etc
We're not really going to do much to address this since the market seems to be correcting it and our current share offerings should help to stabilize and offset such tactics.

- This takes us to our next update. We are going to sell shares at different times of the day instead of right after dividends are paid. We still don't have a formula that works in all the situations we can think of so in the mean time we are going to try to keep the amount of shares sold to 700 a week, much less if demand is low- slightly more if demand is really high. We will likely put these in as batches throughout the week and will always do 0.006 ask price, meaning its pretty much always going to be a market order---the shares go for whatever bids are in.

- Lastly, we've put a small amount of funds in secondary markets (cryptsy, mintpal, etc) for higher-risk higher-reward trading. This amount will never be more than 5% of the portfolio without shareholder approval. We're not big into alt-coins given the risk but lately we've noticed some good opportunities to make high-returns on small amounts (BC, ZET, KARM, LYC to name a few that have had rise/falls easy to jump in and jump out of). With how flat the BTC and LTC markets have been at times we think putting a small amount to this use acceptable. Currently we've put less than .5 btc toward this use.

As always feel free to share any thoughts/concerns/ideas with us in a reply or PM.

-Tom and Jeff

Not negative at all, we'd much rather have somebody voice their concerns so we can address the issue rather than have us continue on a path that could be harmful to Coinreturn in the long run. We're glad you let us know about the share thing (we were hoping somebody on the forums might have stepped forward) We were much more uneasy with the first case of what we thought was manipulation but after this second one we had alot of internal debate about just letting it correct itself since--if it was even manipulation---it'd be someone selling low and buying high, even if they drive up the price. Then this all leads to a whole pandora's box of what manipulation is okay and what isn't and if you attempt to react or police one kind then where do you draw the line.
I'll hold off on making any formal decisions until we all have a chance to hash things out but I feel as if I can say we may have over-reacted a bit to the whole shares-selling-for-.10btc thing. Our thinking was well what if the price suddenly sticks at .05btc/share and people---that buy in at this price---end up seeing the dividend return isn't worth it and trigger a panic or just cause the markets to stagnate; and a general feeling of well if it is maniuplation and we just let it go that could give people the impression we condone it/are involved/aren't doing anything.
I know this doesn't answer everything but I hope it gives everyone an idea of our thought process and (hopefully) some patience with us if we ever do the less desirable course of action. We'll have a better response as to a sort of final plan to figure our share offerings in a way thats easy for us and shareholders to know a single concrete number. As always, but especially for this, we'd greatly appreciate feedback/input from you guys as to how you as shareholders and future share-buyers (since what shareholder doesn't want the price through the roof ;) would like to see future share offerings play out.
Again we'll have more tommorow but everyone is welcome to voice their concerns in the meantime so we can chart the best possible course for all of us.

-jeff
thanks again for the post thundersheep

I will never get shares... I didnt want to spend more the 0.007 per share but not even 0.008 is possible. I just wanted to buy 100 shares a long time ago but failed, because i never got it busy man and so, i cant observe it every minute. Even if i go high with the price its no use.

I have to admit that i like the IPO way more because everyone can get shares...

This is the bind we're having a hard time resolving. We know we aren't going to please everyone no matter what we do but we'd like to do what is a balance of best for coinreturn's health + its shareholders and is somewhat equitable to those who want to buy in. We're starting to back away from the idea of variable shares---at least unless there is some kind of formula basically set in stone. We'd really like user feedback/ideas on this (and your position...own/don't own/want to own/etc if possible). What we'd like to do for the time being is just stick to 100 shares a day and have this figured out well before the remaining 3000~ shares are gone. This would be until we can figure out with the community here and internally what the best course of action is overall. The 100 would be sold at different times and in different volumes but always at .006 regardless of market conditions. Sorry we've jumped around on this issue and had to walk back previous decisions but we're trying to manage this balancing act as best as possible.
So what do you guys think? we'd like to offer some more shares but obviously not offer them forever; put in x,000 shares on the first of the month for the next X months? put in x at .006, x at .008, x at .01, etc? put out 5,000 and be done for good? develop the formula? something else?

We didn't entirely take it as accusatory, more of ''hey the actions that you are taking give the appearance of, and could be, manipulation''
We appreciate the feedback/post in frank and concise terms, helps us figure things out more easily.

-tom and jeff

TBH, I think anything you announce beforehand has the potential to to be exploited in some way.  I think the only way you're going to be able to do this in a fair and equitable way is to either sell shares in a more ad-hoc & unpredictable fashion as you see fit, or re-enable the IPO flag and sell large chunks of shares at a time.

First of all great work you are doing there! Great dividends being paid, I hope this continues :)

Regarding the Sale of Share:

Im trying to invest since several days approx. 5 BTC into your Business which is rather complicated. Gladdly somebody sold me approx. 150 Shares from his private stock, but since then it has been rather hard to attain further Shares at a reasonable Price.
Currently I have over 2.5 BTC in your Orderbook (at a resonable Price lvl), which makes me very unconfortable, because of one reason:  Vircurex!!
If I were you I would never allow so much potential Investment in your Company on the Orderbook of CryptoStocks i.e. Vircurex, i.e. Kumala...

So my sugesstion is:

IPO - 534 Shares - 0.01BTC- for one week and then freemarket again.
The remaining Shares will be split into Groups of 500, and sold at different lvls:
500 - Shares - 0.015 BTC
500 - Shares - 0.02 BTC
500-  Shares - 0.025 BTC
500 - Shares - 0.030 BTC

and so on...

Like this the People who paid now so high Prices for your Stock have the short chance to get some lower ones at 0.01 BTC. On the Otherhand, People who are willing to invest higher amount of BTC also have the chance to actually build up their Portfolio, and not leave so many BTC on a vircurex related site...

anyhow! if anybody is interested in selling me his stocks i am currently around the orders 0.0096 :D Please fill it up!! 
Wish you all a nice Weekend! tanati Istar

YEAH, THAT WOULD BE GREAT./irony TO THE MOON!

My pricemedian is 0.0078 and I thought thats pretty high already. Less as half of the shares were sold for 0.006.

well if you take one of the "better" dividends, e.g. 0.00015610 per Share, with an Investment of 0.0078 per share, you make an Return of +/- 2% every two days! that basically means 1 % every day, which means 365% in a fuckin year! :-D
so you still think 0.0078 per share is high? at the current dividends not even 0.03 is high... (off course always depending on the dividends...) dunno where you can find that in the "real" world. I personally own Bank obligations which give me 3% interest in a whole fuckin a year!! ;-)

The People who got their Shares only at 0.006 where the risktakers, because the Listing was totally new at that time, not knowing if it was a complete scam... so Bonne Chance to them!!

Anyhow, my main Point, was more to emphasize the risk of keeping funds on cryptostocks and thus CoinReturn has to find a way to enable the "Long-run-fishes" in the Ocean to get 100+ Shares at once, whilst the others in for a quick buck  can push them Prices up or down with their 1 Share bids...
Thats why have a free market but with a quantity of Shares available at a Point above the current market value...

would be nice to hear CoinReturns thoughts on it... not just somebody complaining about my first post I ever made in such a Forum not just BTC related, ever... :-D

sorry, I were not complaining. I am just thinking that 0.02 or 0.03 is a very high price, because trading is a risky business. Completely not comparable with obligations. Therefor a good trader is makinig 30 % a month and Tom & Jeff are good in my eyes, so they can make it. Supporting a project from the beginning is kind of less risk, because in trading you are coming to a point  making a huge loss, its like the probability of a win in lottery, but kind of opposite.

I am also invested in full return swaps with 20 % a year. When you have obligations, thats maybe what you search for too.

cryptostocks is a cashcow, i dont think vircurex is going to slaughter it. Its really a problem to buy alot of shares at ones. I was also complaining about that and it seems there is no possibility to buy 10% of the coinreturn fund at once. thats good and bad at the same time.

I gave it a shot, I got hit by asic.coop scammer. But this time it's a lot cheaper for shares, I bought in @ two shares. I seen how dividends are paid, looks well. The graph looks somewhat stable and well it looks like you made it this far so I said why not. This is, btc that was collecting dust. If it does turn out bad, it's not much I'll lose out. I'd get more but that's a dif. story going on.

Tom, I don't think I've seen posts from either of the other 2 founder's real accounts.  Any chance of getting this to happen soon?

Thanks for all the input on the share selling issue so far, looks like we don't have much agreement but we're working it out. Maybe we'll try to boil it down to like three options and see what you guys think and maybe put it to a shareholder vote? One thing we'd like to do is maybe set a definite limit on total shares for at least a year---say have a maximum of 20,000 shares through 2014; maybe add some kind of lifetime limit too. This way investors know we aren't going to suddenly release 500,000 shares and kill the value, you guys think this is a good idea?

As for today's dividend payment it's going to be a stinker (we're posting this pretty much simultaniously with the dividend payment). If you look at charts of the value of BTC/LTC in the past 2 days there has been pretty much zero volatility; sell high, buy low doesn't work to well when the high/low is only 3% apart. Sorry if we let you guys down, the market usually seems to get moving on mondays though so we're optimistic for the next dividend.

I (Jeff) don't have access to the email I used to signup anymore. I think I last logged in around 2012 back when I last did any mining and I think I might have only had like 2 (maybe even 0) posts on it anyway. Sorry it took me so long to respond. Tom doesn't have one and Tony is (if you guys haven't figured it out by now) too antisocial on the internet to have a forum account anywhere (at least that's what me and Tom are guessing ;P)

-Jeff

Thats cool. Its better as rising the shareprice as a ponzi.

20.000 in 2014. The limit is like connected to a limited price of a share, so you can trade with reasonable numbers as XBT and altcoins are a limited market (sorry for the word repetition limit). So i guess its usefull to make a XBT IPO max definition instead of shares max count.

Today they are 700 Shares in the bid and the price rised over 30 % in two days. Thats alot. Do you consider releasing more shares today so I can buy next week stil my 2 shares for a reasonable price and dividend, please. Thanks

Forget to update the OP with dividends payed or is there a delay?

Date                 Total dividend  Number of shares    Dividend per share    
27 Apr  08:58     0.43860880     6,566                      0.00006680   BTC


Thanks.

Jeff,
I think you might be over-thinking price manipulation.  I and an investment club may be responsible for the price fluctuations you are seeing.  My recent purchase of 90 shares may have been a little much and subsequently have caused some of this fluctuation. 

My club has determined that your stock is one of the better investments at Crypto, and we probably rushed into it too fast.  I will mention it to the group and ask that people buy in blocks of 20-30 shares at a time. 

As you will notice the price is currently dropping towards the .01 range and will probably drop further because of the poor dividend.  Some investors have that 'sky is falling' attitude at the least little problem.  It has been this way for the last 30 years in the 'real world' stock market. 

We are in this for the long haul and not 'pump and dump' pukes.  Naturally, you must understand that success normally brings increased pricing!

Keep up the excellent work! 

 

$10.39 for my two shares vs $18 earlier. lol. go fig. glad it's play money.

Great work and compliment to the Fund Management.

1.
My question is, if you could make premium verification on Cryptostocks. However, every project started after 10. April require this type of verification for listing. That would give the project a boost in liability and reputation.

Maybe, you could consider that for a vote, because not everybody is really giving to the verification attention.

2.
My second proposal (sent a PM) is giving out Options for median share price of the last 10 - 30 days, so bulk buyer (300 shares up) can get shares for a reasonable price.

Best regards and thanks for estblishing a trading fund in XBT

Yeah, you are right. the price for the first (lets say) 4000 shares was about the original market share price 0.006. I hoped in because the ROI was about 30% a month. With collecting money with 0.01 a share this ROI should jump up to 40%.

The most important thing is the Fund itself, how the IPO is organised is quite not the most important thing.

I can just warn people from investing more as they lose. before pushing it, i need to be sure and for that an inside view into the work of the fund create trust (Just my 50 cents).

EDIT:
Good we are today almost back to normality at 0.008. Next big support is on 0.006 and we could stop there.

I hope coinreturn will not release anymore shares for a while. I think the price drop is scary for some investors and if coinreturn keeps releasing shares tomorrow it is going to plummet more. You guys should cool off for 3-4 days and stop releasing anymore shares. Let the price stabilize first

I'm not so sure about that. I'd like to think the average investor savvy enough to jump on board with CoinReturn would be fairly diligent, enough to keep up with the information the founders have also been diligent about giving out here and on CS.

We're at a good price right now, maybe we can go higher but the sudden jump scared me more than the drop, especially as someone who wants to reinvest their gains. I definitely want to stay with the project and see where it goes :D

Sorry on the lack of updates the past couple days, we managed to break our ATP while attempting to do some updates and normally we'd just revert to a backup but we managed to overwrite our backup code with this broken version (ouch!). So we've had to do alot of (mostly) manual trading, which is time consuming and basically requires one of us to be trading/market watching all the time. We've basically rebuilt the ATP, but we're running in a simulation mode which doesn't actually trade but tells us the outcomes as if we did. We need to have this running for a while to get a good sized log to review for any missed opportunities or bad trades (i.e. we don't want it to sell a dozen btc for $440 and buy in 30 min later at $445, stuff like that). So we've had our hands full with that.

As for the share price maybe the value rose a bit too high too fast and combined with overall market conditions: a bit of a dip in price of btc and volume on CS down to 140btc overall. Fortunately for us our trading strategies do best when bitcoin's value falls so our dividends are likely to rise in a bad market and hopefully negate these factors... However we're well aware btc's price has only a limited effect on our price. We're still around .01btc and it's still a bit early to really react yet but our initial thinking is that this is indeed just a correction from us being overbought last week. If so then the price should stabilize. If not then we'll update here as to any actions we'll take.



Last, we'll be making an announcement which will be cross-posted on CS as well. The announcement will cover: That we're going to be announcing a set share maximum similar to what was discussed in earlier posts. When, how many, and if we'll be creating any new shares and how we're going to sell shares (i.e. all at once, x per day, IPO on/off, etc). We don't want to jump the gun but we can say that this will be implemented/active/starting on or before 5/14, with the "official" announcement well before that. This will finally be a set plan for share distribution that we're going to avoid deviating from like deviation and back-pedaling is the plague(no more, 'okay now we're going to change plans and start selling x shares at x time' stuff!)
We might announce the maximum share limit thing separate, before that just so things don't get too confusing, but either way: in the next 10 days or less everyone will know how shares will be sold. Sorry it's taken us this long to get sorted out and that we didn't have this figured out from the very start. We think we've arrived at a solution that should be acceptable to all parties involved.

Thanks for your patience and feedback, we've been reading your posts and messages just haven't had a chance to get back to everyone.

-Your CoinReturn team

At some point it would seem like we'd want to allow the free market to set the share price, as in what someone is willing to pay to receive such a service/investment. W/ consistent returns like this I can see people willing to pay a hefty (fill in the blank) price per share especially as more money comes in through newer shares thus bolstering returns even further. Perhaps I'm missing something tho to which I'd be thrilled to hear more.

I wrote several times about the crazy rise up to 100% - 300%, so they should supply the IPO more flexibel.

I guess there are more investors, which are going to bomb the price down, the same way it was pushed up. I can just repeat myself 4000 shares were sold for 0.006, so its logical, when someone want to reinvest, he will first bomb down the price. Lets see if they are investors out there with bitcoins in spare and want the price pump up to dump their expensive shares at higher regions.

I am still sceptical to ipo-market-share-price experiments. Some people lose, some win. Ok, there is an emotional show and the losers are paying for that and the winners are gaining. Thats trading pure, but investors intend not to trade they want to invest, because they cant trade, they have a different point of view . So lets see.

The most important thing is that tom and jeff feeling good doing their thing. I support everything they do, its their project, even when sometimes I sound unpolite.

EDIT:
Someone running the bot is making good arbitrage money .

wow. 0.008000 for a share. i paid for mine @


My stocks are worth shit on a boot. "play gone money" LOL

Coinreturn gives almost the same profit as Altcoin pumping&dumping. Almost the same, you have a limited supply of new mined coins, people who want to invest and people trading marketprice.

So we saw the pump and now we saw the bombing. I am curious about further 10 days. More bombs? 900 shares on 0.006. Yummi! I guess the people wanted just to buy shares with 25% profit a month. Now they can. And then they will go up for 100% profit of shareprice. 10 days of rollercoster.

Just sent this e-mail out to cryptostocks. Maybe Coinreturn is not a scam, but better trying stopping it now, before its getting worser and watching another pump and dump.

Dear Sirs,

we think of heavy price manipulations on CoinReturn.

1. IPO has been cancelled after some weeks, without notice (!), just after it happened. Announcement: IPO pause for one week.

2. Limited 10% (!) higher price IPO shares has been offered then without any reason.

3. Then the issuer changed its mind (!), without saying anything (!) and offering shares by buying up buy offers. The community found it (!) out and wrote on bitcointalk: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504128.msg5929687#msg5929687

4. Shareholders could then buy IPO shares, which are sold by issuer in limited tranches. But not directly, just by making an offer on the buy side. How many shares are going to be released and when changed several times, just announcing it afterwards (!)

5. Heavy rise of shareprice began. Alot of shareholders bought for prices up to 1000 % of the IPO price, during the IPO stil running (!), but the shares were strickt limited (!) by owner. Community got worried. Announcement: Update regarding recent price spikes.

6. After heavy rise of share, while stil selling offering IPO shares, but because of the limitation, which was set by the owner very flexibel.
Now the price went down almost 100% in price. We think of a heavy pump and dump price manipulation. We dont know how the owner is involved or supporting that.

7. There is a new announcement made (Want to keep up with the latest developments of RETURN?) to change the IPO Phase rules again. We consider the situation could be a fraud to shareholders.

Because Of that, we are asking for a trade stop or grey listing of the share.

Best regards,

like I said previously they need to let the market decide on the fair price. By keep releasing shares it turns off investors. Maybe they should release new shares twice a month or so but thats it. Releasing shares every day or every other day is definitely affecting the price. It was ok when the amount of shares was low but now that there a good amount of shares released they definitely need to taper it and quick

What is all this manipulation talk? Existing and exiting shareholders are listing for higher prices that newcomers are willing to pay for, hence the uptick in some share prices. Pure free market unless there's something devious going on w/ the crew that runs the security. Curious to see what they have to say about this.

+1 I was very happy to come in and pick up 300+ shares at between .007 and .01, there could have been lots of people like me spotting a consistent return at the same time.it's a small market and there is a lot of bad securities out there.

There is no where a free market by defintion, that you deside what price you want to pay, because the other has to agree to sell. The free in free market can not even refeer, that you are free to buy or not. You have to buy your food, electricity etc. and in stockmarket or gambling you just buy because its an ediction or primal behaviour like greed. Free referr that everyone is allowed to offer their goods. And therefore we see scammer/legit projects on cryptostocks.



Coinreturn is kind of  ‘if it seems to good to be true, it is’ .

-offering 40% dividend per month.

-selling 1500 shares for 0.005, 4000 shares under 0.006 (inside game? buying the shares by themselve)
-price rising up to 100% with high trading volume on that price to sell the shares on high levels.


1. vote option on cryptostocks is normally working. coinreturn claiming its broken. definitly NOT THE TRUTH.
2. stopped releasing new shares yesterday to pump up the price again.

coinreturn seems to be another scam on cryptostocks. there is too much recent doubts and past sceptisism. it would be not the first one on cryptostocks. when their are leggit and having a trading software etc., but there is no proof for that so far like easy to make screenshots.

I guess some people are thrilled by taking now the risk, some just think ok and some are worried. Its gain over risk. golden platinum rule on cryptostocks is to never invest more as you can lose. for reall money i prefer more legitime places. at least where i know the second name of the guy i am giving him my money. Good Sunday to everyone.

Sorry to anyone that's disappointed with our performance. We definitely made some huge mistakes by not having a long term plan for the release/sale of shares beyond the first few thousand, we really do regret this and thats why we are going to be announcing a set plan which is what we've been discussing on here for weeks.
The vote we wanted to release was informal and was only in regard to setting a maximum number of shares, we made the announcement and then went to create the vote and kept getting an error. I'm not sure why we would intentionally make an announcement about a vote and then lie and say its broken, how we gain from that other than looking foolish? The vote was informal anyway and we think there was enough agreement that maximum share limits is a good idea anyway that we went ahead and decided to implement it.
We stopped releasing shares after our last announcement because we're going to have an implementation of a final way to release shares, not to mention that the price is tanking anyway after the shares went way too high too fast---which is something we were very concerned about soon as it started since we feared a crash would happen.
We admit we've made alot of mistakes and things could have been planned out much better but we hope we're only guilty of stupidity rather than malicious actions, we are truly sorry that our actions have upset or inconvenienced shareholders.

To reiterate, until a formal announcement is made regarding the sale/release of shares, we won't be selling anymore shares. As others have said on here, we need to let the market set the price. As we said before in our last post, we will be implementing, no later than 5/14, how shares will be sold and how many, etc. Until the announcement we are going to try to keep growing the portfolio and (hopefully) pay out good dividends.

@coinreturn

there is no marketprice which is setting himself. its a demand and supply thing. enough supply considerable price. short supply leeds to high flying price thats economic basics what your learn in school. so by cutting more supply you are driving up the price again just more.

you might have a demand for example

1000 shares for 0.01
1500 shares for 0.008
2000 shares for 0.006

I agree its difficult  but easily to solve and everyone is happy and understand whats going on.

1. you cant make the opposite what you said 2 days ago. thats not how to make business.
2.your pm to me: is just  we're not familiar with XBT and there's no way to offer options on CS, we can only sell shares, not offer options contracts. Sorry.

You are and not familiar with cryptostocks options. thats gross. sorry. you are making business and taking money on that plattform.

3. may i ask you for pictures of your trading software (screenshots). There is need on my side to know if you are really trading. as you are making public business its normal to reveal your real names.

have a good day and good trading

Thanks johny08 for it sounds like you know your stuff and trying to keep OP transparent.

If you ask me, I think I got ripped off & who ever else, but I knew this from the beginning doing this was taking a chance. My play money goes to tell everybody else in the forum whats going on here. as explained here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=504128.msg6429041#msg6429041

Also what makes things odd is OP last updated the OP (3/25).

Thanks for your input. The demand is still rather low with less than 300 shares at .001 and above but if you can propose a solution where everyone is happy then were happy to take suggestions. Sorry we had a hard time understanding your PM from a few days ago when you said: "i would like to invest up to 5 XBT during Mai in your shares. So my question is, if you can set up a way to sell shares bulk at the counter. A possibility as it was shown by the project Scrypt was to offer Options.

What do you think about that? Can there be a way of offering Options  a day in the week on the base of median price sold that day, like today it would be 0.011

My median for your shares lies on 0.7885 now growing every day. Of course I want to buy again for 0.006. What is your opinion on that. I like the 20 % ROI a month like bitcoin-trader.biz"

We had a hard time understanding your PM and hoped you would clarify it a bit, if you want us to offer options on CS we're open to that but there's still no way to, nor would we, create shares or offer options contracts on other websites other than on CS, sorry. Its true that we're not terribly familiar with the mechanics of options contracts on CS but we'll gladly look in to it and explore the possibility. If we still misunderstood your post as to what exactly you had in mind then can you please try to describe it another way?
As for our trading platform we can post a screenshot of it, its java ran in a command shell so theres no UI---not much to look at, but we'll include screenshot in our next post.

https://i.imgur.com/Ys1vAyr.jpg

There's the requested screenshot, this is the first settings page of the btc-e LTCUSD platform (though its basically the same for each one we use) none of the trade history is visible and its in simulation mode but there it is...not much to look at but it does what we need it to. Not all that different from many other platforms that are out there as far as we know though.






We haven't been updating the OP since the same info is on our main page on CS and the updates, with context, are in the newest posts, that's why we usually link to the newest post when linking to CS. We'll go ahead and copy paste the updates from our CS page in case there are people that don't actually read this thread or look at our CS page.
Sorry if the dividends haven't been good enough to meet your expectations, we regret that you'll no longer be a part of the CoinReturn portfolio but respect your decision to divest and wish you the best of luck with your future investments.

Dividend today?

I was wondering the same.

I jumped ship, see ya. Got what I can, lost only 0.01.

Stocks are dipping and have been since I bought in.

No dividends paid.

You must have bought at 0.014 like me. Otherwise, 0.010 right now is higher than any time in March or the first half of April, which is to say that  for somebody who invested earlier than 15 days ago, there should be a profit.
I think few people actually invest in companies for the long term (which means only a few months in crypto currencies anyway); my point being - don't be scared of corrections, and invest if you believe in the business model, not just by looking at a graph (not saying you did that, pekv2, it's just something I feel happens).



 

give them time I am sure they will pay dividends, things happen

Sorry folks, I just spoke to Tom and he said he either didn't hit submit or the page didn't load when he entered the dividends. We're going to pay out the same amount we had for yesterday right after this post and then tommorow will be as normal---so all the amounts will be the same. Thanks for letting us know and sorry for any inconvenience.

-Jeff

Any update on additional share sale. Some of us were enjoying the 2-day share release exercise. After watching a few releases, it became predictable and one could bid to get shares as long as one's bid was  higher than the lower-limit you set. It seemed to work. But i can imagine the frustration to someone without a clue as to what is going on. The answer may be better communication. We need you to release more shares at reasonable prices.

dividends?

today?

Its been paid today already

What pissed me off, even though this was an experiment is that I paid top btc for 2 shares, then shares were release driving and keeping the price down. johny08 already was stating something of this & reporting the OP to cryptostocks.

Shady business on all parts if you ask me, glad I am OUT, I will not need to deal with this IPO ever again.

Fishiness is coming from this IPO, so I left.

Good luck to the rest. Becareful. If you buy at now prices, they release more shares, your bought share is worth squat 1/4 btc of what you bought at.

It was suppose to be paid yesterday, then the 9th so on so forth.

Shady.

As long as there isn't too many new shares coming out, there's more money for them to work with when trading to make more divs for us. Whatever trading platform or bot they're using, it's making decent money.

Disclosure: I own RETURN shares.
OK, I don't see everyone's gripe when it comes to price fluctuation and limited shares.

The page info says they will release a max of 10,000, but they have only released ~7000. If they never release more the market will determine the price - which is what you guys want. 
 
Yes the prices are crazy high from IPO, but so are the returns! What matters is ROI. Just like regular stocks only buy at a price you are willing to pay. Doing the numbers even at 0.01 a share you are still getting ~20% returns a month! That is crazy good and worth it. If the price drops - so what - you only lose if you sell. Wait for the dividends and you will break even. But just like a stock and especially cryptos - use common sense - don't buy on the spikes! Wait for it to settle - it always does, and then get in and enjoy the dividends.

If they do release more shares however I think they should be fair and set the IPO flag. Let everyone get in.   

I too enjoy this stock and have a fair amount of shares. I agree the returns are nice. To comment though the max of 10,000 is not true. They plan on releasing more than that. 10,000 is what was created so far in cryptostocks. They are still determining when to release the remaining shares from the 10k as well as create more shares. ideally the returns should never really change since trading is all based on % but the demand will definitely decrease as the supply increases.

It seems to me that when they release more shares they should definitely be north of .01 since they've proven a solid product and anything less would be an insult to the early adopters, not to mention it would give them more to work with on the trading platform thus earning us all better returns sooner and often. Yep, that was a mouth full. :P

Hey all, sorry we haven't been as active on the thread lately. We don't want to respond to any one single post as to tip our hand as to what the plan is for shares, but we know this is pretty much the single largest source of mistrust and the fish-like odor pekv remarked on. As we said before, the way we've made decisions regarding shares is the result of bad planning than ill-intentions. We weren't clear in our whitepaper statement about how we intended to release/sell them and even left it open as a "we'll figure it out later" which, in retrospect, is unacceptable for any entity raising capital through shares, and we flip-flopped way too much trying to adapt to different demands. For all this we are sorry. That said, we are still planning to announce a resolution to this in the next few days that we think will be agreeable to most of the different concerns raised here. We have most of the plan figured out in terms of mechanics and are just playing with a few different variables in regard to numbers. Apart from trying to address the array of issues raised, our biggest priority is having a plan in place that is 100% clear that we will not deviate from, we've lost enough credibility from backpedaling and another change in plans after this would be unacceptable.

For those of you that have parted ways, we're sorry your no longer a part of the portfolio but we respect your decision and understand your reasoning, we hope that with the dividends you came out ahead.
For those of you that have stuck with us, we greatly appreciate it and intend to not risk losing your trust in us and hope to keep offering a good return on your coins.  

balance sheet and closure resolution would be nice for a start :-)

divs?

We're still on track to make an announcement regarding our plan for shares/share distribution for the remainder of the year. The only thing that has changed with this is we plan on implementing the changes in the announcement basically right after the announcement is up, in previous posts we had said we would implement it after a day or two but after we fully fleshed out and developed the plan we realized that it isn't really practical or in anyone's interest to arbitrarily announce then wait, which will be more clear after the announcement. We've tried to come up with a plan to satisfy as many people as possible while looking out for the portfolio's long term health and hope most have a positive reaction to our plan.
We also have a few more less dramatic changes in the works that we plan on having shareholders vote on but we'll cross that bridge once the dust settles from all this share related business.
To summarize: The announcement will be up on here and CS at roughly the same time on 5/14 and once it is up the changes will be implemented immediately. As always, feel free to stop by here or send a PM to tell us how we've done or with any questions.

-your CoinReturn team

Doesn't look I got any nor today either. My balance has been stuck throughout last weekend it seems. Any thoughts? Is there a way for tracking dividend payments on CS other than just noticing an uptick in one's balance? I checked through the announcement page and there's been nothing for Return on there since prior to the 10th. Also, my email account gets notified when I get divs and it has been empty of notifications since the 8th.

E-mail notifications has been out of order for most of the past 2 weeks, so no surprise there.

All account activity can be found at https://cryptostocks.com/trxaudits (Account menu -> Legend)
You are correct, however, that no dividends have been paid today/yesterday (May 13) https://cryptostocks.com/securities/101#dividends

Today's have been paid out, sorry we're a bit inconsistent as to the time of day when we pay them out; but it should always be before 23:59 CS time (and usually a good bit before) unless there's a problem.

Thanks for the replies, guys. Yes, it does seem like the notifications don't work and yes, the divs did come in. I'm so busy w/ so many things I guess I either wasn't paying attention or overlooked the obvious.

Alright here we go....

1) In our original whitepaper we weren't very clear about how many shares we intended to sell at .005, and many users had the impression that we would sell 10,000 at .005. We never had intentions of doing this, but we see how people could easily get that idea based on our poor wording and failure to state any other intention.
 So what we are going to do is re-enable the IPO and offer the remaining 2934 shares at .005. Since this is a very low price and we want to give as many different users a chance to get these we will release them in a few stages. This is because one person could easily put in a buy for 3000 shares at .005 and take all of them, we may also disable/enable the IPO(clear the book) to give others a chance.

2) We will also create 7500 shares shortly. After this, there will be no more shares created until March 1 2015 without shareholder approval. This isn't to say that March 2nd we're creating new shares, just that the possibility is off the table until then unless shareholders vote otherwise.
3) All of these newly created shares will be for sale immediately after creation.
4) 5,000 shares will be available at .007btc and 2,500 will be available at .01btc. While these shares are available we will have the IPO enabled.
5) If we want to make ANY changes to the details outlined above we will only do so after seeking and obtaining shareholder approval. If these were to sell much faster than expected, we may seek shareholder approval to create 2,500 more, but this is unlikely. If these were to sell much slower than expected, we may seek shareholder approval to lower the price of the 2,500 at .01, but this is unlikely as well.

EDIT: Just to be clear, we are going to try to sell most of the shares at .005btc before creating and selling the new shares. As we get down to the last 1,000 or so we will then create and release the new ones, so there may be some overlap. We've just released 934 at .005.

Background Information:
We were uneasy about re-enabling the IPO and creating price "levels" of shares since we don't know how quickly the demand will consume these shares and we don't want anyone to feel "stuck" with shares. However, as past performance has shown and the final section of this announcement details, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for share purchasers at .01btc/share to achieve a 200% annual ROI. These funds will allow everyone to profit on smaller price swings but deliver larger dividends, even with more shares splitting the proceeds. How so?
Consider that there were roughly 7,000 shares out there that raised roughly 45 bitcoins. Say we sell all 45 for 450, then buy in at 440 we would have profited 1.02 and shareholders would get about .66btc/7000 = .00009428 per share. Now, if we sell these shares and raise 75btc and now have a sum of 120btc, then sell that at 450, and buy back in at 440, this would generate 2.72 btc and 1.768btc for 17000 shares, so .00010400 per share, a 10% increase. Admittedly this does work out better for the person paying .005 per share, but the early bird gets the worm. However if we can consistently take advantage of a 2.2% price shift in btc we could give a 100% return to shareholders that bought at .005 in about 3 months and 6 months for a shareholder that got in at .01btc. Of course our trading strategy doesn't actually sell every last coin at once, and often price swings can be much larger than 2.2%, but the principle is the same.

We tried to keep this short but very clear and unambiguous, however if there is anything we didn't address or you have others questions or concerns, feel free to post on our bitcointalk thread or send us a PM.
-Your CoinReturn team




edit +2 hours since post:
 1200 or so shares remaining at .005btc, we'll keep trying to release them in a piecemeal fashion. Once we get to about 600~ left we'll create the new shares and put those up and wait a few hours to put the remaining .005 ones up for those asleep/working/etc.

I really hope you can enable some time when IPO will be disabled. Please wait after the initial .005 is gone before releasing the new shares. You are essentially flooding the market with a huge amount of shares. I would say wait at least 3-4 days after those 3000 are gone.  3000+ 7500 is more shares in this IPO then are currently available in the past few months

Seriously? I've been camping this thread and announcements page for the last week and I leave for a scant 3 hours to find everything already happened and nothing for sale.

So where are we right now? Are there going to be 1200 at .05 in a few hours? 600? Or are the rest of us are SOL?

Still at 950 to sell with 150 just added to the book, doing it in a trickle to give as many people as possible a chance to get in. We knew they'd go fast but they are going almost instantly, we're trying to be as equitable as possible.

Instantly is right, they're already gone! I agree with the piecemeal and random time releases to increase fairness, but the sheer demand is just unreasonable.

You might have to call a vote at some point.

I know they keep going quick I only got my hands on about 75 out of all these shares :/

Online since 3 hours! Finally got some  ;D Keep it up CoinReturn! BTCBTCBTC

We share your concern and hope to avoid that by pricing almost all the shares at a discount but at a range that, if they all sold, would still give a bump to the dividend per share rate (generally speaking based on past performance). This all combined should still give a good valuation per share and allow the ones were realesing to move pretty quickly. We figure the ones at .007 are still a good enough price for people to find it a bargain, things may slow down a bit at .01 but we'll see.
Thanks for the input though, its appreciated and we try to keep everyones feedback in mind when deciding what to do next.

We hit 600 shares left and are creating and soon listing the new 7500 shares. We'll put these ones up a while and then resume trickling out the remaining 600 at .005btc. Sorry to anyone that really wanted in at .005 and doesn't make it in or get as many as they'd like, we hope at least a few of you got what you wanted/get what you want at .005btc. Thanks for sticking with us and feel free to let us know what you think about how all this worked out.

-jeff and tom

What time in eastern standard time? Need to be ready for this.

We've been trying not to give or set 'to the minute' specific times, we're thinking we'll resume at 9PM EST, but again its going to be trickling out.



-Tom

At long last I got a few. Man, you'd think shares of this thing cure cancer  ???

theres plenty of shares now i think the desire for them died down a bit.

There's going to be a poll up shortly asking shareholders if it is acceptable to use up to 10% of the total portfolio (currently around 7btc) for use in alt-coin markets. The btc/ltc market has been dreadfully flat lately and we've fared well on darkcoin, cinni, and a few others with the 5% allocation we do have. Of course alt's are much higher risk but under some circumstances they can be worthwhile. We'll likely stay under the 10% but part of the reason we brought this up is because our investments in darkcoin paid off so well that the growth caused it to be more than 5% of the portfolio, though we just recently sold some off to take profits and are back under.


edit:
Also we're about to pay out today's dividend and bear in mind that we've barely had a chance to put the newer funds into use for trading, so they'll be a big of a delay over the next few days as the portfolio grows and the funds are used for trades and grow the dividends. So please have patience as things begin to settle.

The vote is up now BTW, looks like CS's email failures extend to vote notifications as well...

Ive been lurking off and on on this thread since i bought alot of shares of return over the past few months and more since more shares were created. I was wondering how do you guys plan on trading with alt coins do your tradebots work with them or are there specific ones you planned on getting or what? i'm inclined to vote yes on the active poll but i know i've lost money over the years trying to trade on alts and most just lose value over time and the market is very volatile. I mean if you lose 10% of the portfolio--say 10 btc gets turned into 2 then you do it again and have 9 turn into 3 thats a very big loss, what will happen to dividends, will you just have no dividends until the -15 btc is caught up?

We've done some tinkering on the alt-exchanges that do have an API (cryptsy primarily so far) and for these kind of trades we primarily do things pretty simple, we look out for a coin that's got a steady rise, like darkcoin for a few weeks until recently or hobonickle for several months (flat now, could go either way) and buy in manually, often in a few stages so were not loaded with one coin. Then we query the API at regular intervals to look for changes and if it goes beyond a certain threshold drop we sell---though this part is still kind of beta as we work out the coding. As it rises we seal in the earnings, also in stages typically and if we earn a 100% of the funds back only then do we ever "let it ride"; for instance: let's say we buy 100 darkcoin at .003 for .30btc total, we sell some along the way of the rise and then say as the price hits .006 we have earned .30 btc back and have 35 darkcoin leftover, well then be a little more risky with these funds and try to get a nice return since none of the principle is at risk.
Generally speaking we try to avoid jumping in a trend too late or too early, too late meaning the rate of growth has slowed for a few days and you can see the leveling coming, too early being a sudden jump up that is only over the course of a day or two. We can't imagine losing a whole lot like that unless something goes really wrong (block forked or something) but that is a good question, we would have to cover the losses from profits elsewhere unless shareholders want a vote on this to say we cover them over a period or cover 90%. If this were to happen and we lost enough to kill a day's dividend then we think it'd be best to reduce our balance of alts immediately as to reduce further risk. However, with buying in at stages, taking profits when possible, having fail-safes with our trading platform, and avoiding being too eager (along with avoiding extremely low-volume alts) the risk of this should be very small.

Sorry for the long answer but we think being specific here is better than not.

-Tom and Jeff

What would have been most considerate is to offer the shares 1st to existing shareholders as to allow them to prevent dilution of ownership/yield.

We considered this but what about the people that got zero at .005 earlier? Doesn't seem right to offer them less since a huge part of why we offered the 3k at .005 was for them to have another equal chance. We don't see dilution of ownership outside the context of yield as a problem but within the context of yield, estlabished/early shareholders have been given the same opprotunity at .005, and if they couldnt get in at that .007 dividend yields should work out close to the same in theory along with the higher yields on existing shares, especially for those who bought at .005 or .006 initially.
Sorry if this doesn't make things better, we're not trying to dismiss your concerns, just trying to explain our thinking.



-

Today's dividend is about to be paid and its a good bit larger than what is typical, most of this one is from darkcoins we've sold in the past few days and profited nicely on and not so much the new funds in the portfolio (we got most DRK at ~.0035 and sold a nice chunk at ~.013).... So while today's is pretty good, the dividend on the 19th will likely dip back down and then the following dividends will steadily climb as the new funds are put to use---unless of course there are some major price shifts in BTC/LTC in the near future. Just wanted to keep everyone posted and especially let potential investors know that this dividend is not typical and future dividends may not yield this much.

-Tom

(If it is really true, that the profit came from DRK trading, then) I have to say CoinReturn, is extremely professional and honest!! You could have easily kept the dividends for you, and just issue the share holders one of the usual “average” size dividends... so thank you for the professional and honest work!

Thank you for the kind words. And honestly we've seen so many other projects/stocks on CS and other cryptoinvestment sites claim that they will give investors 90%+ of all profits but we found this hard to believe. We take 35% which we think is fair. If you total up the dividends from since we ended the promotional period (4/10 or so) thats about 18btc for investors and just over 9 for us (27btc total-35%) so we think we're doing pretty well already. Thats actually how CoinReturn really started... we noticed that it's easy to make btc grow if you pool your resources with friends and manage to take advantage of almost every shift in price---which is easier to do if your not just one person having to trade 24/7 basically---then you can kind of just keep growing. We are concerned with how flat BTC prices have been in May, we don't remember it ever being this stable, since our strategy assumes a degree of volatility, but things should still pan out with alt-coins picking up the slack when needed.

Are there some BTC0.005 shares still remaining?

Of course but prospective share buyers will obviously be able to make bids and then the free market price can eventually be realized on an continuing upward trajectory to valuate the dividend return rate properly. People will be chomping at the bit to buy shares of this at will be willing to pay a major premium per share.

@ coinreturn

Can we make a vote if there is need for the next 2500 shares at 0.01 as you proposed?

Thanks!

how many shares do you want released. Once this is gone the IPO needs to be over. I want to see where the value will stabilize

This and it'll be interesting to see the new coinage being put to work in a bullish environment like we've just started to witness. What how that'll make the divs look coming up here..

The last 900 or so shares at .01btc are going slow enough that it doesn't seem like we need a vote, if more users express a desire for a vote though we will create a poll though but this seems somewhat unlikely in the near future. We may disable the IPO somewhat soon and leave the shares in at .01 since only 900 remain, this is still up in the air though, feel free to comment on this.

As for the rise in btc prices, its great just to have some price change, we've needed it like a california farmer needs rain. Never seen prices so stable as they have been this May. The price change is already helping and alot of the new coins have been put to work. We also want to mention that the vote on trading in alt-coins passed overwhelmingly, were not too crazy about getting too far into alt-coins given the risk they carry but when the btc/ltc markets are extremely flat/stable they can be very useful.

I support the idea of disabling the IPO flag & leaving the 900 remaining shares at 0.01 - perhaps at the end of the week?

I also agree on the BTC price stability; it was CRAZY stable!!  It was like everyone was holding their breath, waiting for... something... I've no idea what!

I agree with this disable the IPO in the next 2-3 days and just leave the shares there. I hate when investments are stuck in an IPO for a long period.

+1

Hi Tom & Jeff,

Regarding the contingency plans in the event of a CryptoStocks implosion.  It is reassuring to know that you guys have thought about these kinds of scenarios and even more reassuring that you have a plan in place (& have disclosed it).  However, I would like to propose an idea for an alternative plan.

Basically, all your share holders (myself included) obviously believe in CoinReturn and see it as a great investment.  Therefore we have committed our money to the company and would ideally like the excellent returns to continue as long as possible.

Therefore, I propose that, in the event of catastrophic issues with CS, instead of shutting down CoinReturn, we simply move operations to another platform (such as Havelock Investments).  In fact, I would go one step further and propose that we proactively move to Havelock, regardless of the situation at CS, as from what I can see, the Havelock platform is superior to CS in terms of functionality & stability, & is less related to other failed / failing enterprises run by operators of unconfirmed integrity.

What does everyone think of that idea?

Sam.

Quick update:
Since we have some consensus all around, we're going to disable the IPO setting either tomorrow or friday (about 24-36 hours from timestamp of this post) and leave the remaining 700 or so shares in at .01btc

-Tom

Personally, I wouldn't mind the IPO flag remaining up a little longer while I pick up more shares :D

But I'm okay with letting the market decide too.  Open the floodgates!!

I generally support the idea, but it has to be planned very carefully. Usually a listing on havelock investments brings with it a mugh higher volume and thus a higher responsibility and often more problems (just compare CS and Havelockinvestment listings' threads on bitcointalk.org). Dont know, how much time and effort CoinReturn is planning on putting in their Project. If they want to go full public eventually as an Tradingfund, than havelock is the future, if they want to remain a kind of neat anonymous project than CS is the place to remain on, and I think if you transfer your dividends at least twice a week out of CS than a potential loss can be kept at its minimum, (of course only if, one of the CS listings dont decide, to dissapear with CS together :)

Yeah, fair call I guess.  Perhaps we should wait until the project matures a bit before expanding to Havelock.  However, I'd still like to see some alternative contingency plan to just liquidating everything and distributing the funds.  I don't want to loose the very healthy returns from this project!! :D

Are there any other stock trading platforms out there other than CS or HI?

bitcoinbourse.eu, crypto-trade,

There's not that many stock trading platforms besides that.

It looks like the latest returns ~doubled over the last one so things are looking up. I imagine going forward will be similar if not more.

Not sure what you mean here:
They look about the same to me!

There is a site, www.BTC.SX ,  funded by Seedcoin Investment fund  that enables leverage with BTC trading. I believe that with the market direction predicting capability of Coinreturn coupled with the leveraged trading  provided by btc.sx, Coinreturn may be able to boost returns substantially.

The management of Coinreturn should examine the possibility.

I came across the company/site in the prospectus of Seedcoin on Havelstocks and i have not done any independent assessment.

I just noticed my divs looked to have doubled so perhaps it's the extra coinage being put to use that is making this happen.

We're open to moving to another platform if things ever hit the fan with CS but we still want to have our current emergency liquidation plan in place if its not a viable option to move, because we might need to give funds back for people to repurchase, if regulatory agencies put us out of business, etc. We haven't paid to much attention to havelock but from our latest examinations it looks like things run very smooth over there. To early to make any formal decisions but this is a discussion were happy to keep evolving.


Next order of business is today's dividends, they are pretty terrible due to our trading platform and our own strategies thinking a dip was imminent when it wasn't. We've linked the image and you can see where we messed up, at 5/24 3:30(and to a much lesser extent at 5/23 16:00) we thought a drop back down coming since we had multiple samples showing a downtrend imminent. This likely could have been avoided since we didn't have our more standard settings on---ignored volume at 500, didn't require enough continuous drops at 30min polling intervals for MACD, although 1hr and 2hr polls showed a incoming drop. In layman's terms: we had the sensitivity turned up too high on our "tradebot".
  This had about 25% of the portfolio tied to it since we were set to put more of the new funds into action, so we basically sold a bunch of btc at and around $502 ($515 bitstamp), right before it surged upward again....ouch. Fortunately, we have our platform set to take a loss. What we mean by this is once our platform started picking up the trend reversal upward after 3:30 and had a few confirmation samples it began to buy back in....sometimes the most profitable thing you can do is take a loss. The losses totaled about ~0.75btc which we estimate cut the dividend in about half.
We're disappointed we have such a lackluster dividend today but on the upside we stemmed any major losses and aren't offering a 0 dividend and that we can improve our strategies going forward to avoid similar scenarios. We hope we have adequately explained things and no investors are extremely dissatisfied after reading this, if you have any questions feel free to ask and we'll do our best to answer.


-Tom and Jeff

http://coinreturn.me/img/falsepos.png
edit: we should have included a SS with it at 30min intervals but its where the cursor cross is at 3:00-3:30 is where we are describing

Thanks for the updates guys, it's reassuring to see such good transparency and that you have good contingencies in place for such situations.  Don't worry too much about it, you've learned from the situation and you can't win every time :)

Besides which, let's not forget the record 4BTC payout a couple of weeks ago!  :D

Keep up the great work!

+1

Not really satisfied with their dividends, after beginning the 0.005 to 0.01 sell you guys should have like 100btc Fund
The Dividend is just lousy after you guys sold more shares

We haven't really been satisfied either honestly but it has taken some time for the new funds to make it 'in circulation'---to actually be sold and rebought. There's been some pickup on the volatility lately which has helped alot and if it weren't for 5/25's mess-up we'd be fairing a little better. We're about to pay out todays which is more on the right track. We understand and share your sentiments though.

It definitely was a great payout today and I'm sure everybody is happy w/ that kind of progress. This is the kind of upcoming dividends I'm sure most of the newer IPO buyers were thinking of when either buying as newcomers or the veterans that wanted more exposure. If this trend holds, those buy order prices are gonna become a laughing stock if they're serious. Keep up the great work, Return!
http://i58.tinypic.com/xpneia.jpg

great dividend and only after 1 day! If you keep this up the stock should almost double in price to where it is now

Just remeber that CoinReturn pais dividends from trading, not mining or not (hopefully) a ponzi scheme. So dividends are always subject to market volatility. But at the same time, this means CoinReturn can go on forever without reinvestment issues regarding new miners etc. Also trading aint that easy, if not I wouldnt have invested in CoinReturn as well as others (including you, I believe)...

Speaking of reinvestment: what does CoinReturn and other shareholders think of the idea of keeping a certain percentage of the dividends back?
To create with it an additional "company" fund (edit: with a public walletadress) which then can be used for sharebuy back to increase value of shares (instead of releasing new ones in the future) or additional trading of which the dividends would be shared amongst shareholders every month or something like that...

Is it too early to decide for something like that? Does CoinReturn need a longer "history", for shareholders to give them the trust, to let them hold back dvidends for further profit in the longrun?

Not sure I like the idea of the buyback, for a number of reasons.  The additional trading funds is an interesting idea, but I would probably rather control this myself by re-investing my dividends back into more shares; it just gives shareholders more control over their returns & what they want to re-invest or withdraw, vs this being out of our control & not necessarily suiting our week by week funding requirements.

+1

Anybody here who has bought and held since 17 March or earlier? How does it feel to have the price of your share repaid in dividends within 72 days? I got in after watching RETURN for about 3 weeks, on 27 March at 0.0064, so I still have to wait for the 100% ROI mark, but I already got paid 0.004 on my first share, so not too bad. I sincerely hope (not a valid trading strategy ;-)) that RETURN will stay around and keep it up.

I'm in RETURN from 03/11 and lovin' it...

RETURN definitely has a great thing going and they clearly know how to trade. I'm glad they went public and offered to trade other peoples' coins on their/our behalf as this appears to be the best security up to date in terms of div payments. As this market continues to take off, there's plenty of coinage to be made on in to the future through the top shelf trading calls from these guys. Again, thanks for sharing your talents in such a meaningful way. May we all continue to prosper!

I have to say, your "more control for Shareholders" point is totally correct and acceptable! This possible "reinvestment-of-dividends" by shareholders as you have stated, would also create more volume on the trading books of CoinReturn. So you have a total valuable point there and therefore thanks for pointing it out!! :-D (Starting to really like this bitcointalk thread, some very productive replys and ideas to any thoughts/questions raised)

But, I still believe in the future a share buyback plan (financed through a percentage of the dividends) is better than releasing new shares.
However, since IPO is anyways not soldout yet, this is a debate for the future or as CoinReturn stated earliest 2015 ;-)

Btw, did anybody else have CS down yesterday? Kinda scared me... edit: Cant withdraw BTC - "wallet is offline"  ??? :-[
wish you all a nice weekend!

Thanks :)  I too enjoy this thread and find it a complete contrast to the standard FUD & trolling of your average crypto thread!

CS was down for me earlier, seemed like it might be a DDOS attack maybe?

Yeah, word on the street is that these so-called CS wallets are offline right now and not available for withdrawals. There's random concerns among quite a few people around here about this and whether or not they're going rogue on us or might not be able to recover from whatever attack they went through. Hope the team keeps up w/ the ongoing issues here and soon might be time to go to plan B in terms of shelling out dividends.

Since when have they been offline? Is there really any reason to believe this isn't just a simple technical problem?

They were experiencing a "heavy traffic load" yesterday for a few hours which could've been a DDOS. I got RETURN's dividend but didn't get anything from my sig sponsor payout, which could be him or them idk. Multiple people have reported in another thread that they weren't able to withdraw from there account and at least one had issues putting in a deposit. Idk what's up since I just reinvested my div back into more shares. But, the one we get later on today I'll try and withdraw and see what's up. I advise people to be very aware of this and I hope I turn out to cry wolf. developing...

My deposit to the CS wallet from 2 days ago also isn't posting. They'd better get their shit together.

+1

my deposit is stuck

As many of you have noticed CS deposit withdrawls aren't going through. We are unable to pay out dividends today since we can't deposit funds. We'll roll today's dividend into the next one unless somebody else has a better idea.

I guess you could potentially reinvest the dividends until the CS wallet comes back online, but I'm not sure if this would tie them up for too long.

If this is a permanent problem (as in they went rogue) and I know yall have my email address, is there a way to provide another wallet for payment while also verifying our share holdings? This is really starting to look shady on their part.

@coinreturn where will you go if CS closes down tomorrow? How much money is on CS how much is off CS?

coinfarm seems to prepare a move, I would love if Return moves with them, because I have shares of both of you.

I know it's only been a few days, but I think the complete lack of communication from CryptoStocks, the historical technical issues & lack of care plus the ever-present unknown of the owner's poor reputation should be enough for us to start looking elsewhere for a home for CoinReturn's share management regardless of the outcome of this latest outage.  4 days is a long time to be down in the crypto-world, and time is bitcoins!  I understand that technical issues happen, but the complete information / update black hole at CS is inexcusable!

@Tom & Jeff: Do you think it would be appropriate to have a vote on this?  (although this may be moot as I think the outcome is pretty predictable).  I know you guys are busy, and the last thing I want to do is to create more work for you, but I think the current situation is pretty poor.

I think having a vote is vital! Also I think, Return should send an E-Mail to all its shareholders. Just in case. I KNOW i have CS on "disclose your E-Mail", but I want to be on the save side.

Good idea!

What do you guys think of Havelock Investments? I would like to see Return, Coinfarm, MSP and Debt move to Havelocks.

I think Havelock Investments is brilliant!  I have used them quite a bit in the past and their reputation is great, their site is solid, and most importantly, their COMMUNICATION and SUPPORT are first class!

Does anyone maybe have experience listing a security with them? I wonder what their process is with regards to vetting new listings. So far they look much better at it than CS!

I haven't listed a security with them, but from what I understand they certainly seem to have a much more robust process for listing / vetting listings.

And CS is back.
My account was creditted a deposit I made a few days ago

No further explanation given

CS is indeed back. I was able to withdraw successfully

Same here, my missing deposit showed up.

That said, this experience (during which I've enjoyed a read of all the other times this had happened with CS and parent Vircurex) has left me wary of the reliability of CS moving forward.  If they're going to keep this silence on what happened, I think we might have to look at alternatives, like others have said.

We should demand an explanation.

There's no explanation, but at least an apology ;)
https://cryptostocks.com/announcements/2436 (https://cryptostocks.com/announcements/2436)

However, I also think finding a new platform very soon would be a good idea.

As someone alluded to earlier, these last 4 or 5 days being 'offline' essentially feels like a month in real time. I'm not even sure if today is a dividend day or not. Sure would be nice if it was, 3 divs all at once! 8)

I believe we have 2 missed dividend payments, and another scheduled for tomorrow.
Also, it appears someone was happy to see CS wallet back online. They picked up ~7BTC worth of RETURN shares, and ensured that the IPO is now completely sold out :)

Nice! I see people are picking at the shares listed @ .011 and once those are gone there's almost nothing between that and .014+. Then, only a few coins worth til it's .02 and up. Assuming things stay on course, this is by far the best security going on these days and I'm a proud shareholder. Any guesses as to where the free market value of these shares will be in in 2015? I'm gonna be conservative and say the asking price will be north of .05 each plus these asks will be in the driver's seat. The only question will be who's sticking around and making sick coinage going on into the future and who's taking profits and retiring. ;D I'm happy w/ my positioning and will likely keep picking up these puppies, best bang for the buck imo although I am diversified.

Wow lotta posts to respond to! Sorry we've been laying low the past few days, we've been looking at what we can do to move off CS. Unfortunatly there does seem to be a really good way to do this---to shift to somewhere like havelock and transfer peoples shares to there.
 On the upside we've seen a huge drop in the number of anonymous shareholders which means more people are disclosing there email. We are going to send an email to everyone and ask for a bitcoin address we can keep on file with your name and sharecount. Please check your email associated with your CS account in the next few days and reply with a bitcoin address we can send funds to if needed.
We'll be sorting out the dividends today as well and we'll try to respond to some of the posts here.

We have a hunch that the share price is only up so much because people are expecting a super dividend (5/31, 6/1 and 6/3). If it sounds amiable to you guys we would like to pay out 5/31 on 6/4, 6/5 on 6/5, and 6/1 on 6/6, or something similar, were concerned that once we pay out this triple dividend people will decide to dump their shares. We're going to pay out 6/3's a while and see what you guys think, if everybody wants the past due ones all at once we'll gladly do it later today or early tommorow, were just a bit leery about the jump in price/demand. Or maybe do 5/31 with today's then 6/1's div with 6/5? What do you guys think?

5/31 + 6/03 Divs. together
6/01 + 6/05 Divs. together

Is in my opinion a good Idea!


I dont really understand this, could you please expand on it? Are you in favour of listing on havelockinvestments? If yes did you do any research on their listing conditions? And how much that would cost? Maybe you could just pm them on bitcointalk and they could pay a visit to this thread... :-)

Thanks for the good work so far!

I'm not sure that spreading the div will deter people from dumping shares once they have been paid TBH.  Also, the sudden spike in share purchases may have been panic buys once deposited funds were available today.

I vote for 'Über Div 2014'! :D

Unfortunately, we does not talk the english real good.

Sorry that should be "Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a really good way to do this.... "
We need a way to transfer shares so that each user gets the same number of shares, thats the biggest hurdle. Alternatively, we could do a buyback on CS and tell people to come over to havelock but we're not crazy about that idea either since there's no real way to ensure the person that bought at .005 doesn't get .01btc back and vis-versa.  


Also we just sent the email to all shareholders. If you didn't get an email from tom@coinreturn.me check your spam folder and if its not in there then check your CS settings to ensure you have your email shared with project owners.
edit:
We just noticed we made a major mistake and should have done a Bcc when composing the email since blind carbon copy doesn't let each recipient see each others e-mail. Sorry about this to anyone that didn't want other shareholders seeing your address. Sorry.

Gotta say.  Was nice receiving the e-mail requesting BTC address should the you know what hit the fan at CS.  Wish more securities on CS would pay this sort of attention to shareholders.

Well, at least we know they're on top of things.

I agree that this is an important issue.  I'm surprised that Havelock have no way to do this however.  I know of a number of companies who transferred existing shareholders from CS to HI, but TBH I'm not sure whether they transferred with share numbers intact (although I imagine that there would have been more of an outcry if they did not).

Woops!  LOL  Never noticed till you pointed it out tho :D

Oh well, I guess we're all just that little bit closer in this thread now! :D

"Getting to know you getting to know all about you" :)

Sorry all for being so careless, was just one of those things you notice like 5 seconds after you do it and can't do anything to fix.

As for the dividends we going to go ahead and pay out 5/31's and 6/1's today. In retrospect, we can't see this mattering a great deal to anyone so we're just going to do it like this. 5/31's div was rather lackluster, if you look back at 5/29-5/31 there wasn't much volatility and the only movement was upward so there wasn't much to be made. As for the next one, basically 6/1 is a one day dividend so it doesn't have as many trades within it.  So 5/31 covers the rest of may after 5/29's div. 6/1 covers pretty much just that day and then 6/3 covered yesterday and today. Everyone follow? So look for two more dividends today, one for 5/31 and one for 6/1.

-tom

:-D Thank you for clarifiying!

Havelockinvestments should help you with a share transfer. Worked with PETA-Mine even though during this time CS did not even provide Shareholders lists (Check post #194 (Page 11 I think) in the "PETA-MINE-Havelock" thread on how they had to do it in the end)
But really think CoinReturn would need to "mature" even further in order to get support for a listing on havelockinvestments, but if CoinReturn managment and operators ;) have time, why not give it a try?

BTW Kinda funny to find out that others CS-listings are also investing in CoinReturn!!! :-D That should be very flattering to you Tom&Jeff :-D

While this is a terrible mistake it also is a UX bug all mailing programs I know of have: Nobody EVER wants to send an email to several hundred or more people with their adresses exposed AND is annoyed by a confirmation dialog that you want to lose your job.

Fuck CryptoStocks isn't replying to my question about whether I can change my account e-mail or not. Looks like I'm gonna have to eat the cost of a share transfer to a new account.

I have asked them a handful of times for the same, and gotten the same reply as you (no reply)

if you guys PM us we can help, at least with RETURN. Send us a PM with your CS email address and how many shares you currently own of RETURN (for verification against our list) and what email address you want us to connect with you and we'll put a note in our spreadsheet.
Not sure if this helps you guys but its about the best we can do.

Also, kind of totally unrelated to CoinReturn but we saw in your sig you are advertising Coinomat and we're curious about this service/project. Not sure if you are just advertising only but have you actually tried their services? Their exchange rates look a bit rough (currently like 605 USD for 1 btc while coinbase is offering $640 or so for sell, though looks like higher qty gets better rate) would be nice to see another legit CS project gaining steam though as well as any service that makes it easier for people to convert btc and USD.

CS is notorious for not responding to customer e-mail(s).

Can't speak for Coinomat myself as I've never used them but Coinbase has been highly reliable for me insofar buying and selling goes.

*keep up the good work on this fund...one of the few legitimate one's currently listed on CS so far as I can tell.

At the moment I'm very sad that I've sold my 28 return-shares last friday. But on the other hand. I sooooo don't trust CS. I hate it. Loved my dividends.

Even tho CS hosts your shares, our guys (RETURN) have all of our email addresses and share numbers in case the platform goes down. The dividends are too good to sell any of these shares. Check the order book and see where these puppies are going for. Very few are selling and only at solid free market prices reflecting the quality of this security. There's gonna be lots of coinage to be made here for years to come and could be a pension stake for those that stick around for when BTC does its thing again.

I did the same as well except I owned close to 100 shares. I do not trust CS and that led me to sell. The dividends are definitely awesome but CS made me worry too much since I had a significant amount there (on top of my shares in Return)

Still holding my paltry few shares but admittedly also very nervous about CS.  Have been for sometime.

For the last few weeks I have been doing some in-depth checks into CoinReturn and its founders.  Here is a brief summary of my findings and observations for the benefit of the community:


Negative Points

• Introductory blurb states that the company is registered in Cyprus, however this is not the case.  I asked the the CoinReturn team about this and they said that while this was the original idea, they changed their minds on this after seeking legal opinion.
• We have yet to see the delayed stream of trade history as mentioned in the company introduction

Positive Points

• The Coinreturn team are fairly communicative and continue to be up-front and open about the operations of the company
• The fund has been operating for over 3 months
• There has never been a missed dividend without notice or good reason (eg; CS wallets being down)
• CoinReturn is not promising loss-free operation
• The company is open about losses when they occur, often providing details of exactly what happened
• Returns appear to be realistic and consistent with market conditions at the time
• The company is taking a realistic cut of the profits
• I have seen some behind the scenes trading history, which all seems to be legitimate
• There is currently a stop on further share issues until 2015.  This is a strong indicator that they are not a Ponzi operation
• The team are actively concerned about loosing contact with shareholders (in the event of CS shutting down) and have a plan in place to mitigate this risk
• I have sighted an official ID for Tom, including address of residence

I don't want to go into my general opinion of CoinReturn in this post as I'd rather keep it as neutral as possible and leave the conclusion up to the reader.  However...

Disclosure:  I am a shareholder in CoinReturn.

:)

CoinReturn offers decent returns, ~1 year ROI at current rate. Im going to pass since its on cryptostocks  :(

Dude, for the umteenth time CS doesn't matter as all our shit is locked off of that platform plus no divs are payed during a collapse on CS's issues. As for the ROI, it stands at a minimum of 200% all the way up to ~350%ish pa depending on market conditions. Again, there is no other security making money like this plus being responsible w/ their shareholder's stakes. And, the order book is telling the complete story. The free market value of these puppies is ticking upward just as I predicted and at a fast clip.

LOL

Just curious about the level of checks you were able to make.
The domain owner's name is anonymized  in WHOIS search. So how did you know if the ID you saw belongs to the owner ?.

The investment return looks good. I just wish the owners will open up with all the secrecy , so one is sure who is managing the funds.

Well, I saw Tom's ID, who is one of the CoinReturn team, who the domain belongs to is somewhat irrelevant; Tom is who we are generally dealing with on a regular basis and he has proven his identity.

        We're going to try to cover alot of replies here... We're glad to see SamboNZ put out his report, we saw him as a neutral third party who has history of acting as a sort of SEC for cryptostocks so we we're willing to comply as best we could (trade history, background info). We admit we (Tom and Jeff) had pretty strong opposing opinions about the benefits/risks of disclosing a photo of sensitive information (in this case Tom's DL), so in the end I (Tom) agreed to disclose a pic of my ID to SamboNZ.
        Our hesitance regarding this disclosure about the specifics of our location isn't a mystery but we're going to go more in depth here... To backup a bit, when we started we thought if we could host our website and register our various accounts through IPs based in Cyprus then we could, from a legal standpoint, be based in Cyprus. Foolishly, we didn't based this on anything an attorney had told us but rather on our own assumptions. Months later, after talking with a mutual friend who is an attorney familiar with this area of the law they informed us that routing our IPs through Cyprus is not only pointless, but worse for us in the end since we would be misrepresenting ourselves.
          To come clean, we are in the United States. We haven't wanted to reveal this since in the U.S., regulatory agencies like the SEC don't approve of Bitcoin investment vehicles like ours and those in the U.S. who have been open about their identity have been fined and had operations stopped. For instance, look at two cases here (http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370541972520#.U5jzsFPLekX) from an SEC press release. Note the one involving SatoshiDice mentions: ".. SatoshiDICE...ultimately returned these offering proceeds to investors in a buy-back transaction in July 2013.  A significant rise in the exchange rate of U.S. dollars to bitcoins actually increased the amount paid back to investors to approximately $3.8 million for 45,500 bitcoins." So even with investors receiving a full return and profits the SEC still extracted $50,000 from the operator. Those who have been on CS a while may remember Multipool (https://cryptostocks.com/securities/86), whose project owner tried to do the right thing and disclose his info only to have the SEC shut down operations.
           Clearly SEC involvement in any Bitcoin based investment fund is basically a death sentence and if we ever face action from the SEC we don't know how easily or fairly we will be able to get investors funds back in an equitable and fair manner, not to mention potential fines and court charges toward us.
We did, however, reveal our actual names and information about ourselves, just not our location. We have a good idea of what info is out there already about us and the SEC would have to use alot of resources and hours (and the SEC's $1.3bil budget is stretched thin as is) to figure out which Tom Mica's and Jeff Lombard's are actually running this fund, which controls <$100k (small change compared to other bitcoin investment operations). So basically from the start, we've had to balance disclosing as much as we can about ourselves but to a point that regulatory agencies can't exactly figure out who/where we are. It would be nice to be able to be totally open, but this twisted regulatory system actually punishes those who try to be open and honest.

           We hope nobody here feels misled since we tried to address these issues in this thread in the first few pages, however we apologize for things we weren't open about, like our location. We've been unsure whether to address this or not but we figure more people are going to ask about the whole Cyprus/location thing and we really just want to get it out in the open. As always we welcome your questions and will do our best to answer them. However, in this instance we aren't too eager to give out any information that would make it easier for regulators (the SEC mentions these forums in the linked pressed release)





Next topic:
Today's dividend is about to be paid out. We'll admit it's pretty mediocre, however we're somewhat in the middle of some trades, or rather waiting for some orders to get filled. We've had almost entirely sells today and the buys we have had just occurred recently.
Fans of technical analysis and charts can see that today , or have heard there is a bit of talk of, an incoming drop. Look at the 1d, 12h,.., 2h settings on bitcoinwisdom and you can see what has the potential to be a dip coming soon. Now of course this could change and we could be made to look like jackasses right after posting this, theres alot of bullish news (ebay/paypal buzz, expedia, etc) which might help but we are still expecting a drop, even if its only to 600.... Currently its on a small $15 uptrend at the time of this post and is getting close to triggering our break-even at different points (640-650) but we're still bearish right now. We had some fill when we went below 620 but that will be on next dividend. Bottom line: if the bear trend gains steam next dividend should be pretty nice.

If anybody is confused by charts or by what were describing don't be shy about asking and we'll gladly post some screenshots and break things down.


Phew...that took a while to type!
Sorry for the long post.


-Tom

You guys could be based on Pango Pango for all I care.  As long as you continue paying out the kinds of dividends we've been seeing the past few days, I'm satisfied.  Conversely, anything that costs you guys money (in turn, costing us money) is a big no-no in my book, and if that happens to be a breach of your anonymity, damn them all to hell.

Just out of interest; what would it take to become SEC compliant?

In other news; Holy crap, I got an email from the CS website!!  Dividend notification! :o  Dividend notices are my favorite emails EVER! :D

What you seem to be forgetting is that most scams and all ponzis pay out great at the beginning, that's how they attract savvy investing enthusiasts such as yourself.
In a few months, I'll drop you a condolences gif and offer you a virtual shoulder to sob on.

And what information have you discovered that caused you to come to the conclusion that CoinReturn is a ponzi / scam?

What led you to believe that I have discovered any?  I simply pointed out that sending money to strangers through intertubes typically results in copious amounts of tears and snot being spilled.  
~Happy investing

Based on your previous post you seem imply knowing something that we don't...

If you wish to troll / imply unsubstantiated accusations, you may find that posting elsewhere will yield better results than in this thread.

^If you feel I've made any accusations, kindly point one out.  My comment is based purely on statistics and probabilities.  For every scheme of this type that made money for Bitcointalk "investors" (i can't think of any, but I suspect some may exist), I'll offer you handfulls of cases that ended in fail and aids.

Of course, this particular example may be unique, and you may be that very special snowflake who beats the odds.  In which case, continue "investing."

To show that I hold no bad feelings towards you for your rude, erroneous and utterly unsubstantiated accusations, I will extend you the same offer previously made to noobthegreat.
In a few months, you too will receive a condolences gif and a virtual shoulder to sob on.

  ~Happy investing

I guess he's just keeping his words short and passive-aggressive so he can balk on eating them at an indefinite point in the future.

These guys made a gesture of reaching out, breaching their own zone of comfort in anonymity.  Some of us voiced support and encouragement, but fuck, that was it, we're not promising our firstborn to these guys.  Your post went from potentially being cautionary to just plain mudslinging merely a few words in, which takes a step backwards in creating a sensible, thoughtful atmosphere (i.e., unproductive), and as SamboNZ pointed out, it's not wanted here. (he's the one who supposedly did the due diligence against them in this figurative thought experiment of whether we should trust these imaginary CoinReturn guys, if you will, but I guess everyone's a scammer.)

In any case, I won't be asking for a shoulder to cry on because I don't have money tied up on here I can't afford to lose and will have to /wrist on the account of losing it.  Nor should anyone, though it's a free internet I suppose.

You wish to create a "thoughtful atmosphere" in a thread where investment aficionados line up for the inevitable surprise buttsecs?  Listen to yourself.
Justifying your shrewd investings with "I can afford to lose it" is as irresponsible and shortsighted as tossing half-eaten burritos on our floor because you're "not hungry and can afford it."  It makes a mess, breeds rats, and our normal neighbors start avoiding us.

I'm tired of intrepid investors tossing coin they "can afford to lose" at every half-witted con that's been burnt down IRL ages ago, and, when said "investment" [predictably] hits the fan, forgetting their pseudo-libertarian pretensions and running to the first government TLA that'll listen to their gripes...
...surprisingly bringing negative press and tighter regulation to Bitcoin.

  ~Happy investing

Profound, but technically irrelevant to the question at hand. At least now we know what your stake is in this fight, albeit it's an indirect and abstract loss in a scenario where Bitcoin has to be regulated because of the ease and frequency of scams. (Or maybe it's not such a far-off scenario, and, if anything, practically inevitable by who Cryptocurrency protects by design but mostly by virtue of human greed and stupidity, in which case you then have my virtual condolences, as will all of us, for living in such a doomed world.  Throw it all out the window!)

The onus is still on you to answer why you still think this is a scam, especially in light of being asked following the good faith moves the project manager(s) made in an effort to try and dispel ambiguity and suspicion.

You were responsible enough to warn us of this supposed scam, despite your judgment that everyone in this thread are ostriches with our heads in the sand; I impose on you a little further by asking you to share your logic behind why we should still distrust Coinreturn (at least, any more so than any other crypto platform/system/environment where we give our money to strangers).

You should not give your bitcoin to strangers.  No more than you should give cash to every passerby who promises to make you rich.
Let's pursue this analogy a bit further:
You insist on handing over your cash to strangers in the street.  When I suggest this might not be the wisest course of action, you demand proof of you being scammed.  Because "the onus is on [me]."

No.  The burden of proof is not on me.  If this is not obvious to you on its face (and it's sadly apparent that it is not), there's nothing I can add to change your mind.

To be honest, I never thought I could.  You are not here to understand but to defend your patently absurd investings.  I can't convince you any more than I could convince a lunatic that he's not "a little tea pot, short and stout."

So I have to content myself with second best--using this thread as an edifying cautionary tale for our younger [thus educable] Bitcoiners.
With you and SamboNZ being the sad tale's unfortunate protagonists.
A tale made all the more poignant once this "investment" [inevitably and quite predictably] implodes.

  ~Happy investing

This is the problem, we really can't become SEC compliant, virtually no bitcoin fund can. Maybe with a small team of lawyers and the funds to pay the fees a bitcoin fund could but who knows how you would even (be allowed to) solicit investors. Thus projects have to operate in the shadows making it impossible to tell ponzi apart from legitimate. If the SEC would issue a ruling saying basically "all you have to do is disclose who you are and where you are until we can sort out the rules, and have it verified" it would be so helpful for everyone. That way if shit hits the fan with whatever project then investors (and poss. regulators) can take action. It's not ideal but its better than what we have now.
Anyway lambchop has every right to take the stance he has, we haven't disclosed anywhere near what a publicly traded company would have to, and even then those companies can still cook the books and screw investors. BTC related investing is far more risky at this stage of btc's life and there should always be people out there voicing concerns about scams, we don't have the regulatory structure we need so we need something/someone to at the very least give people pause before investing in any btc related investment.



On an unrelated note, looks like the drop is here and we're floating around the 610 range and falling, like a car flying off a cliff in slow motion. Hope everyone bailed out when we were back at >$635....course we're not rooting against btc, we just want some short term volatility.... Looks like if ltc/btc doesn't start rising with btc's fall then LTC might really be on its way to the grave though....remember when NVC was always as much or more than LTC? it can happen. Anyway, without giving out too many specifics, things are shaping up for some good returns.

You can't invest without giving your money to strangers.  Whatever makes them not strangers IRL would be on the path to regulation and/or antithetical to crypto (failing that, at least antithetical to the regulation you seemed to dislike so much above). The guys at Coinreturn are no less and no more strangers to me and you than the exchanges, mining pools and the very decentralized network itself. At the end of the day, if you're in this game, you will have your money in the hands of strangers at some point, or else why have it at all?

Frankly, I don't give a shit about this particular project because it's not even close to being the biggest part of my portfolio (in line with diversifying via risk-reward), and if it tanks or Tom and Jeff split, then I was wrong and what you seem to perceive as my "crusade" ends there, but I, too, am all about trying to represent as much of what I consider to be the truth as I can to all who listen, and as far as I can tell, you haven't offered much other than "they could scam us, therefore they will scam us". (Again, that's reasonable considering the cost, but we're past that point in the argument).  It's great that people like you exist and offer criticism so that we all hash it out now and then and remain vigilant (I'm being sincere there), but I personally want them to have a fair shake as they've been, if nothing else, civil and prompt in their dealings with us thus far.

As an aside, kudos to Tom (or Jeff?) for that remark bout how this kind of dialogue is necessary, even when it's critical of one's self.  If you really are scamming me, at least you're playing it straight.

If you can't invest without giving your money to strangers, you should not invest.  This, again, should be obvious.
I share with you that factoid in the same spirit as this one: If you can't fly by jumping off tall buildings, don't do it.

While flying is a thing, and though it seems unjust that some can do it while others can't, what you're proposing here (jumping off tall buildings and hoping for the best) prob'ly won't make you happy.

Nor are you likely to learn flying by repeatedly throwing yourself off buildings and other tall places, even though this subforum is dedicated to just that.  I know baby birds seem to do it that way, but you're not a baby bird.  
Sorry to be such a downer.

*Also: "...my portfolio (in line with diversifying via risk-reward)" <==a collection of used scratch tickets is not a portfolio, nor is buying Scratch Crazy along with Winar is U "diversifying."  

 ~

Well, it was good while it lasted. We return you now to your regularly scheduled trollfest.

^And yet I still try.  A wit once pointed out that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.*  This subforum is a long and sordid record of fraud, theft, and plain old-fashioned failure, but success?  Folks always point to just one example:  early days of ASICMINER (which, for the past year, has been declining like so):

http://s10.postimg.org/j0epwydd5/Capture.jpg

If we're to take the above-mentioned wit seriously, this forum is a hotbed of lunacy.  From my past experience in these forae, I have concluded that relying on anything that whiffs of reason and logic results in outbursts of rabid rage from the locals.  Not my desired effect.

Wat do?

I'm currently experimenting with my own, home-baked version Absurdism:  Hiding the message in a wholesome blend of bombastic rhetoric spiced with aged netspeak and served in a bed of decorative gifs, with a side-order of infantalia.  Allows the advanced/terminal cases to discount the whole thing as "trolling" (less anger), while those in the earlier stages of dementia are still able to benefit (like a dog swallowing bitter medicine wrapped in bologna).  It's a long shot...

---

*Albert Einstein is credited.

@NotLambChop: While I agree with Tom's sentiment that voicing concerns is a good thing, presenting only rhetoric unbacked by solid facts only serves to highlight the speaker's lack of true understanding of the situation.

I suggest that if you wish to constructively contribute to the conversation, you present whatever facts you may have to hand or arguments based on pre-established facts.  Posting arguments based on pure speculation only serves to increase the risk of making you look foolish.

ORLY?  Looking foolish in this thread?

http://s28.postimg.org/6kcmfsmgt/Capture.jpg

I rest my case.

Look, I understand.  In your mind, you are an important person who makes and rests cases, whose opinions and advice matter, a man respected and revered by his peers and...  let's be honest, the sooner you face reality and put these preposterous delusions behind you, the sooner we can start to rebuild.  And stop worrying about "increas[ing] the risk of making you look foolish."  Start instead with the basics of adult life--like not "investing" your coin in intertubes pseudonyms.

~The road to mental health is just around the corner!"--Dr. Evans :)

Shell it out, fellas. $$$

The price volatility in BTC over the past few days has been awesome. If CoinReturn was able to navigate  all the ups and down effectively, i think we should be in for a bounty dividend. If not a major loss. With the slight delay in divs, lets hope it is taking a long time to count all the big profit  or deciding when to stop booking the profit.

I'm sure they did catch the dips, I was just checking in late last night after being drunk so I'm surprised I was even coherent in my posting after looking back on it. ;D

Nice volume there...

http://s12.postimg.org/6v2z7cfql/Capture.jpg

^Quick flips or panic sells by some that bought at .005 or .007

Ummm is anybody concerned about no dividend payout yet for June 13th?

Meh, so they're slightly late for the first time ever (other than CS issues), give them a bit of time, they'll come through.  Maybe they actually have lives?? :)

Not too worried yet.

*operative word here being 'yet'

I guess they are having their free weekend.

I like sceptical questions. but just riding on fear emotions and thoughts and speculations is bs.

also warning people by making them fear by rhetoric speeches is bs. therefor notlambchop is on my ignore list. welcome!

I think Jeff and Tom making a very good job. Thanks.

I believe that it is Father's day in the US today, so that may partially account for the delay plus the VERY quiet day on the crypto markets in general today!!

Lol @"VERY quiet day on the crypto markets in general today."  Your intertubes must be clogged.
And though Father's Day comes but once a year to US, every day is PWN a Sucker day.
Traditionally, this day is celebrated with clueless rubes doubling down on losing bets.  
The opportunity is particularly interesting for you--it will cost you ~1/2 as much to double down today as it would have just a few days ago.  
Such a bargain!


http://s29.postimg.org/g3gc8vxx3/Capture.jpg

@johny08:  Never heard of you, but being ignored by even the least and the most irrelevant of amateur financiers breaks my heart.  When I think of the Active Miners and NEO BEEans who so vocally ignored me...

  ~Happy investing

I don't understand why stuff like this always comes up in threads like this. I don't know if the missing dividend/update is the end of the world, but do you really need to make up excuses for the guys? Father's Day has literally been on the calendar for this Sunday for over 100 years, if it was going to cause problems with the dividend/update they could have and should have mentioned it before.

Should be a nice lump sum payment tonight. I assume they played the volatility pretty well and have been waiting to score orders based upon it.

Hold tight, Chef Ramsay.  Tom & Jeff are are probably exhausted after teh traditional American Father's Day Bash.  I'm sure they have quite a treat waiting for you.

But then again, just knowing they haven't ran away with your coin will be a treat at this point, amirite?

Don't worry.  This baby's gonna make you richer than Klye's revolutionary camwhoring studio.

@SamboNZ: Happy Father's Day from America!

Thank you for you input, NLC. I rely on it dontchaknow. Good times here tho if they come throu

@coinreturn

how long will be the pause, before you continue investing in btc again?

Hello from United States of America, home of Tom and Jeff!
We Americans are extending Father's day by a few moar days because banging hookers and speedballs.
We thank you for your patience, Bambi and Misty send their xoxo<3

Oh man, whats up with return ???
If you don't keep something, you have to ann it.
But 2 Dividend not paid 3 to follow, very grim.

150 shares for nothing...?

I've flicked the guys a PM as well as an email.  Hopefully we'll get an update soon!

Any news on this?

a self fulfilling prophecy.

@sambo
I am just curious. Have you made a proof of the ID, is it real?

Sure.

http://s18.postimg.org/c7z9iigtl/Capture.jpg

@SamboNZ:

http://s27.postimg.org/r9c471bvn/Capture.jpg

I would be worried now too. It is very unusual for them to be silent for this long. Something probably happened but I doubt they would scam.

The longer they go without communicating the worse the outcome is likely to be. There's usually only 1 reason for cutting off communications like this: something REALLY bad has happened and they don't want to deal with the consequences of telling their investors. That "something" could be anything from their wallet got hacked to an all-out scam.

At this point I almost have to think it's a scam. Obviously I hope they prove me wrong.

I warned you about running with scissors >:(

http://s29.postimg.org/doaq6xxs7/Capture.jpg

At least I can recycle image macros from NEOBEE.

http://s12.postimg.org/5iew9e6zh/neo1.jpg

they are 4 days late with dividend and there was no communication to the shareholders or somewhere else. and before they had a good dialog with their community. thats right?

Very weird situation. I cant believe there will be no statement from coinreturn how tragic their news are.

1229310   17 Jun 10:42    0.00196400   BTC    -2    Sell Order
RETURN - CoinReturn Financial
2@0.000982 BTC

Not a good start on my crypto investment career. >:(

I guess their profits were suspiciously good.
They never had any week where there were no dividends to be paid. That doesn't happen in something as risky as trading in the volatile market that Bitcoin is.

Their IPO has raised about 100 bitcoins, and they've redistributed 45, making this a quite profitable scam, if it indeed is one.

I also don't believe that this is a scam.  I have been back over all my info & history of messages etc with CR and if it's a scam, it's the weirdest one I've ever seen!  Too many things don't add up to these guys being scammers for me to believe that.

However, obviously there is something going on.  I've run through a few scenarios in my head and at this point, the most likely one is that the SEC have caught up with them.  If this is the case it's possible that they don't want to go anywhere near CR related sites on the net, perhaps on advice from a lawyer.

If this is the case, then we may actually get out of this ok as, based on historical precedence, the SEC will force them to refund shareholders (which they always wanted to do in such a scenario anyway).

That's just my unqualified take on the situation, FWIW.  :-\

If this is indeed a scam, it is strange that they waited so long. Why not just grab everything they have the minute the IPO is done? Unless they  held some of their own shares, and waited to sell them at an increased price after a month or two of nice profits.

This is all speculation of course, but it's possible one of the two partners went rogue or there was a disagreement. Who knows. If it is the SEC, I suppose I would only get the original IPO price per share correct? Not the actual market price I paid?

Of course you don't think it's a scam--if you did, you wouldn't be "invested" in it, or ...would you?  I'm yet to hear an honest "I thought it was probably a scam, but greed got the better of me."

Re. "pwnt by Teh Man":  This never gets old.

@GanderFly re. SEC:  it's not the SEC, they're busy guys with better things to do then go after < 100 BTC.  That's as silly as the FBI tracking down a pickpocket.  If some sort of LEO was involved, sure--you might get the "IPO" price, but only if the Father's Day bash went for cheap hookers and forgone blow altogether.

I would imagine that any SEC mandated refund would be at the original IPO purchase price.

That is a possibility. Also, perhaps they were honestly trading and didn't plan on being a scam, but they decided to just run with the remaining money following some bad trades. I suspect that this is what happened to BTC32.

Anyone try prayer? I mean seriously. We can sit around and speculate all day. But what other recourse do we have?
I've been praying since Mon.
Either they'll come back. Or they won't, and the Lord will give me peace to pick up, move on, and the wisdom to not be so stupid/greedy next time.

These guys have had a great track record of trading if in fact that's what they were doing so why wouldn't anyone want a  piece? They were just on here prior to the absence talking about the impending downturn in price which tells me they knew what was up and were playing it right. That's all I got right about now but it sounds like they knew what they were doing cause I had no clue about that dip despite great news.

Agreed on all of your comments.  They appeared to be quite on to it with predicting market trends which further strengthens the 'not a scam' view.

I have some ideas / avenues we could pursue should things not improve in a reasonable timeframe, but let's give it a bit more time before we go charging in with flaming torches & pitchforks :)

Good news everyone!  SamboNZ has Tom's docs, so you're like totally getting ur monyz back :)


@Chef Ramsay re. "sounds like they knew what they were doing":  You thought Klye the camwhore sounded like he knew what he was doing. Whatever things "sound like" to you, do the exact opposite FTW.

Gee, how come this situation amuses you so?

It amuses me because in both cases I was kind enough to explain to Chef Ramsay that what he's doing will inevitably cost him--both in Bitcoin and self-respect.

Both times, instead of the anticipated thanks, I was met with ridicule and derision.

This particular instance amuses me since the time span between my warning an the [inevitable] pwnage was just so darn short--a few days.
TL.DR: I rejoice when life's lessons are so immediate and just :)

*And shit, I won't lie to you, the fact that the whole thing's hilarious doesn't hurt either :D

They can't take the money right away because if they do that they won't have time to raise such a large amount of coins. Then they drag it out ofor a bit so that even when it's plainly obvious to outsiders that it's a scam, there will still be some peopel trying to wait and see long enough for them to cover their tracks and get away.

You obviously have nothing better to do in life than to troll a board and hoping that everything fails that other people are involved in. For one, Klye has been attempting to make good and if he doesn't, that's on him. 2ndly, we haven't heard back from the sponsors here so no one knows what's up. So, get off my nuts and get a life.

Chef Ramsay,
Kyle, your camwhore "investment," has gambled away your money and came back to taunt you by posting Confession of a Degenerate (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=642090.0).  That's a bit like breaking into a house and then calling the people you burglarized, from a burner, and apologizing.  With your friends howling like hyenas in the background.
If to you that's "attempting to make good," call 911 and stay on the line until help arrives.

Regarding "the sponsors here":
You say that until you hear from them, you won't know if you've been scammed.  Which means that unless they come back and say "we's scamzord U, lol," you'll never know.
  
I, along with everyone familiar with shapes and/or capable of spelling the word "dog"--we knew you've been had for quite some time.
Even warned you.
Repeatedly.
Protip:  If nothing else, remember to breathe.

I'm sorry to see how insignificant your grammar trolling world is. You get the sticky badge of the month for policing the security subforum. Any investment has risks and we all knew nothing is bullet proof but did so anyways. So, take your obsessive concern for others and get a real hobby. No matter what happens w/ any of these, feel safe and secure that I'm sitting just fine. Thx for your help.

Man that SamboNZ always trying to hype his shares and defending the scammers is old news. And not paying divs on fatherdays is a good on.

Anyway, Coinreturn made their last announcement on 3 june and stop from there and paid divs till 12th and post here a whole story of about SEC on 12th aswell.
They probably type that large story as an excuse to get out of this. If they really are legit they would come forward made a plan of payback or something else to get out of this, but unfortunately that is not the case here.
They been missing for almost a week with no news and the account here on this forum is also last seen on june 13th

So whats next?

Just threat here to dox them if they dont come here to explain in 48hours. After gettin doxed trow their name to SEC if they are really that worried. Getting them doxxed isnt that hard. If you have swapping emails with them then its easy to get their IP adres.
There are tons of doxxers here on bitcointalk and they will dox it for you as cheap.

I know they are reading this thread, scammers or guilty peoples always come back to check around.
If they think they can get away with this without leaving tracks they are wrong. But im sure if they think they are not anonymous after my post here they will come forward in 48 hrs. If not then just throw their names public and let the SEC get them if they are really afraid

Note: i dont have shares in this but i stumble on this thread. (And no, SamboNZ, i didnt go tru your history post)

If they are scammers, it would have been quite stupid of them to not have used TOR when sending e-mails.
They seem more intelligent than that.

Even genius makes mistakes in life

Just ask the people here who had swap emails with them and check if all the IPs are related. Atleast try it. Checking IPs from emails is pretty easy. Just google how to check it with your email provider. Gather all IPs together and let a doxxer find it out.

Dear Chef Ramsay!

Think of yourself as a half-eaten burrito.  You and your ilk, the other garbage, bring us pestilence-riddled rats, or "the sponsors here," as you so whimsically call them.  

I don't mind your freakish maso-vore fetish, and have no beef (pardon the weak pun) with you fattening up these filthy burrowing rodents on your rancid flesh.  Consenting adults and all that, I don't judge.

But I refuse to let your perversions take place in broad daylight, smack dab in the middle of my Bitcoin!  We conduct business and entertain polite company here!  Our children could see you!



Look, bro.
Rent a room.
In some seedy motel.
Stock up on cheap crank, a quart of Gordon's, a couple of 40s, and rubber toys.
And then "invest" all you want, as much as you want!  Let them things feed on you 'til their guts burst, til they vomit you up, til the maid beats your door in the morning.

But do it privately, discretely, and never, NEVER here!
Never in my Bitcoin.

We have standards here.
ty

Sure.  But finding meaningful ones is an entirely different story.  Let's google Google--Gmail:

"Gmail doesn't give the IP address of the sender in its mail headers for security reasons."

Oh well, there goes about half of the [real] email addys :-\

It's important to shut the stable door before, not after the horse has bolted.

It is definitely not looking good anymore. Thoughts of it not being a scam is now over and this most likely is a scam. No word for a while and holiday has been over for quite a while.  I would get out with whatever money you can. Thankfully I was out a while ago and I never held return for long periods due to transparency

You need to get over that people invested in something that looked like it was worthwhile. I brought no one anywhere, my speculations were my own nor do I have any idea about these guys. Clearly, it's shocking that you'd find bitcoin interested parties in a securities subforum on bitcointalk of all places placing bets on related items in hopes of making gains. If they scammed then shame on them and there's likely not much that can be done about it, idk. None of your childish name calling will change a thing. Again, get a life.

I wish I could get back the 10 seconds it took me to read that post. Pure drivel.

It's not "them." it's YOU.
Shame on you for getting scammed.  Repeatedly.
And choosing to defend your molesters.
Along with your right to be molested.
In public, so others could watch.

Why must I explain to you just how creepy that is?  

It is less creepy than seeing someone take pleasure in the misfortunes of others.
You were probably right, you knew that this was a scam, you can say "I told you so!".
You may go away now.

Given:

1) NotLambchop posts "this is a scam" on almost every thread on Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Marketplace > Securities promoting a new "security"
2) 99% of threads started on Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Marketplace > Securities are promoting a scam of some sort

Then:
NotLambchop will have a 99% accuracy.


Pretty genius I'd say...

Do you guys really think that he has his ID...
I doubt it...

So, What's the latest?

@CoinReturn, some sort of statement is necessary asap

@SamboNZ do you still have the ID? If they dont answer you until Friday, could you publish the ID pls?

I need some help on the email-IP-header issue please:

"Received: from cp-uk-1.webhostbox.net (cp-uk-1.webhostbox.net. [5.100.152.24])"
 
would the [5.100.152.24] be their IP?

whois statest for the IP following:

inetnum:        5.100.152.0 - 5.100.153.255
netname:        CONFNW-UK
descr:          Confluence Networks UK
country:        GB
admin-c:        NA3709-RIPE
tech-c:         IA2933-RIPE
status:         ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by:         IA84401-MNT
source:         RIPE # Filtered

person:         IP Admin
address:        3rd Floor, Omar Hodge Building, Wickhams
address:        Cay I, P.O. Box 362
address:        Road Town, TORTOLA VG1110
address:        VIRGIN ISLANDS (BRITISH)
phone:          +1-415-462-7734
phone:          +1-415-358-0858
nic-hdl:        IA2933-RIPE
mnt-by:         IA84401-MNT
source:         RIPE # Filtered

person:         NOC Admin
address:        3rd Floor, Omar Hodge Building, Wickhams Cay I, P.O. Box 362
address:        Road Town, TORTOLA VG1110 VIRGIN ISLANDS (BRITISH)
phone:          +1-415-223-2606
phone:          +1-415-462-7734
nic-hdl:        NA3709-RIPE
mnt-by:         IA84401-MNT
source:         RIPE # Filtered

% This query was served by the RIPE Database Query Service version 1.70.1 (WHOIS1)
        

Seriously? They have not been kidnapped by ninjas nor the SEC arrested them. 5 days without any sign of life, like a line of text, is enough for starting investigating.

When 99% of the offerings are scams, stop "investing," genius! :D

LOL.  Yeah, NLC only ever seems to post one thing these days:

So repetitive! :D

@Dingir:  I have some information which I would be willing to share, but not until I'm sure that doing so isn't going to make the situation worse for shareholders and only with majority consent from the shareholders on which action to proceed with.  At this point I'm thinking a deadline of the 26th of June (ie; 2 weeks since the last contact from CR), just to give CR ample time to respond.

Lol, kids will be kids.  Thinking, issuing deadlines, bragging about their mad ignore button skillz, posting whois on mail servers, hatin' on adults...
Here's a TL;DR the brighter ones might understand:

http://s17.postimg.org/99silbb67/youlose.png

  ~Happy investing!

Dearest Lambchop (Ohhh, is that what your Mommy calls you?  Oh how cute!! <squeee!>),

I'm not quite sure what you hope to achieve by constantly telling me that you're being ignored...  Perhaps you feel lonely and need some love and attention?  Whatever the reason, I'm sorry, I can't really help you :(.  Go see your Mommy, I'm sure she'll give you some nice cuddles and tell you that it's all ok; "There there, it's alright my little Lambchop".  Wouldn't that be nicer than constantly broadcasting your dissatisfaction with your life on this nasty old forum?

:)

Have a nice day little Lambchop
Love and kisses,
SamboNZ

 :-*

*edit 6/18/14

Just so I won't forget, here's your condolences gif!

Fixed a typo in one of your findings and/or observations for the benefit of the community.
*Hate to see such an edifying and compelling cautionary tale go to waste...

@bcmine:  Of course!  I'll work pro bono.
Thank you for setting a new standard of openness and transparency in bitcoin securities--planning your getaway in a public forum.

LOL, you mean I'm not running round with my hair on fire, waving my hands in the air and screaming "SCAM!!" at the first sign of trouble?  Hahaha, you guys crack me up.

FYI, I have requested all known IP addresses used to log in to the CoinReturn account from a moderator.  I'm not sure that they will give them to me, but I thought I would at least try to start gathering all the info we can, regardless of our final choice of action.

are you police? We need an american going to the police (with ID you have) kiddy, so they hang tom and jeff on a tree. that gives much more security in investing in btc as regulation ever can. its america. we can!

the only chance, which makes sence now is to wait until they are coming back. but there are 100 xbt between us. anyway, they did a good job and enriched the community (before they disappeared).

What about DEBT!!!
...see here https://cryptostocks.com/announcements/2519

MPOE PR?

Hmm, looks like they may charge a fairly hefty percentage as a fee  :-\

Unfortunately it looks like getting CoinReturn's IP is not possible right now:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=38253.msg4380458#msg4380458

A big %age off IPO price is better than the current price...  who's Drivers Licence do you have an image of, have you checked it back to a real persons ID?

sold half of mine, big shame

just another risk we take, why we need better designed websites unlike Cryptostocks mess we have where admin can take 3-4 days break leaving the website broken.

Live and Learn

Nice review SamboNZ as always, NOT.
Release the ID if you have a screenshot and stop hostage this thread. You cant wait for 2 weeks man, this is bitcoin world. One week missing is pretty alarming. They are a team, if one team member get sick or have a situation other member could still type an announcement. You should really stop waisting your time by defending scammers and hyping your shares. This is the 2nd securitie you involved in that has 90% scam chance and you still dont want to believe it! I wonder if you have ever make a fold in a cardgame before

@shareholders
Contact this person for recovery  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=261927 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=261927)

I agree. BTC moves too fast. It has been ~1 week. We need action. If you have information we need to get it to authorities.

Is this him?

http://s8.postimg.org/tgiuicdx1/ham.jpg

@SamboNZ:  Sorry you couldn't get his IP, but since you have his name and address, why would you need it?  Just, you know... Walk over to his place and ask for your money back :-\

So according to this quote, their should be even 3 people involved, so 1 week is deffinately enough to react and post a message!

@SamboNZ does the ID include one of those names? Could you please send the ID to the email adresses, you got from the time CoinReturn send their emails around and had every shareholder visible?

I am european, so no chance to hunt them personally. :-) But my local police station, said on phone, that I can always file a case against unknown, (dont know if that is the right english expression) with the information I have, including the possible names and where they live, webpage used etc. Of course the success is virtually 0%. However,they told me that, at least all of those things will be recorded in one of them interpol databases... So most probabbly only an innocent Tom, Jeff and Tony will get problems once in the future...

@NotLambchop instead of them GIFS i would appreciate a little donation at: 17qX1EfAQ2sZX3o49R8HFxEprr4PJRRhGp for them 10BTC I lost with CoinReturn :-)

edit:
what do you mean with that? Contact him/her for to recover the IP used with their bitcointalk login? thanx for info!

@Dingir:
I have already given generously of my time to educate and warn you.  The money you've lost is the price of ignoring my advice [along with common sense].
Begging for donations, and further straining my good will by appealing to various government agencies [for which I pay with my taxes] is beyond egregious >:(

P.S:  10 BTC!?  Seriously?  And there are more like you out there? 

Woke up with 2 PM's asking me to work on this case, all information on the owners would be helpful. I will start to read though here and see if I can not pull some info on the owners.

They are paying crazy dividends for being a brand new business.... I would like to see a audit. Some questions have been previously raised about both this persons IPO's.

We are discussing CoinRETURN
https://cryptostocks.com/securities/101

Which has gone missing for one week.

http://coinreturn.me/

First step is to find out who was the IPO issurer. Does anyone have any names thought I seen something about them living in Washington state?

They admited the Cyprus part was not true

In a later version they stated:


So apparently SamboNZ has seen a Drivers License (however i presume, easily to fake...)
@SamboNZ could you forward your information, please?

I have one email from them, but dont know how to read out the header/ find the IP from it... shall I Message it to you if it helps? (edit: I posted one of the IPs i got out with my minimal skill, on this thread on #334)

Or his full name first middle and last, with state of issued ID.

If I know who they are, they will be in a big problem.

The jail to start..  ;)

Noobthegreat!
In light of the project manager(s) running away after making an effort to try and dispel ambiguity and suspicion, here's that condolences gif I promised you.
Already gave one to SamboNZ, so this one's all yours, friend!

Thank you. These kinds of posts are very helpful.

^
And just when I was beginning to lose hope.  You're welcome, GanderFly!
Sorry I wasn't there to stop you from gifting your coin to coinmarket.io, but I'm just one man...

~Happy investing

Here is an email header from "Tom"@coinreturn.me

They also included the entire email list that this message was sent to.

The owners should at least make some kind of announcement.  :-[

What something like this?
http://youtu.be/moCSndrmBZE?t=55s

lol even that will be fine.

Aha!  Localhost  127.0.0.1 <==Satan's house
Now all we need to spring the trap is someone posting the headers as a hex dump, and, of course, pagelong whois queries of coinreturn.me and localhost.

Respect to the beliebers that are still placing buy orders.

Yes, to continue to receive buy orders after stopping payouts,seeing a price plunge, and failure to respond to investors is stunning.

I'm not sure if Return is placing those sells from their stash or current holders are attempting to offload what they got for whatever they can get which is more likely the case.

answer from c stocks about identification information of project owner:

I have emailed them asking for clarification of their project.

RETURN is unfortunately one of the listings that was created before me made it mandatory for ID verification, hence other than the email / domain name of the project there is little other information available.

i have sold up now, shame

Really sick and tired of all these bogus listings.  This is absolutely out of control.

Welcome to Cryptostocks. Baptism by fire. 

Thing is: With Return turning out a Scam, I don't know whom to trust on Cryptostocks. Luckily I left CS after their wallet failed the second time. I thought Cryptostocks could fail as a whole. NEVER would I've expected that Return turns out to be a Scam. I even thought about returning to Cryptostocks, but I think I'll just be happy with the 1.46 BTC I've saved and stop fucking around with stocks.

Can I ask why?

@SamboNZwhen are you going to release the information you have (ID etc.)? After writing like 10 Positive points about CoinReturn starting with: "I did some research on them", I am very curious why you are not keen on releasing your additional information...??

@NotLambchop the communication was outstanding, compared to others... and they plaid it well with the huge dividends every two days, accompanied by the hughe share value increase...

KARMA is a bitch Tom&Jeff!!! I know you are reading this, and Life will or has fucked you alread! Have fun spending my BTC on silkroad for some meth or whatever you crackheads need!! :-D

I am currently writing up a very long post regarding the answer to your question and other points.  I will publish this in the near future.

thanks for the reply, looking forward to it!

People need to stop being impressed by huge dividends. If you give me 1 btc I can pay you huge dividends without doing a thing. Start investing in companies that have an actual business plan that can earn bitcoins, and that can prove that they are actually earning bitcoins instead of just giving your coins back to you.

You are deffinately right... appart from what I stated above it was also deffinately the greed to make easy money, that made me (and I presume others) to "invest" in such projects

Must be a *very* long post...

Compared with the other shit on Cryptostocks, I just thought return was one of the trustworthy stocks. Dodged a bullet there ^^

Agreed.

I was fortunate to get out of RETURN shares at more than what I bought for initially and overall my CS portfolio is still worth more than what I put in. However, I doubt that this will stay this way.

Fingers burned, lesson learned, I won't be putting anything more into CS securities.

Moar hard-boiled private dick lore from teh self-moderated thread:

Thats funny that this  SamboNZ has defended 2 scams, CoinPal and CoinReturn... Starting to think we may have a link here. Time to start digging....

@RiverBoatBTC 1) As an indication, how expensive are your services for fraud protection? 2) If I make use of your services, can I make your findings public? 3) What happens if/when you are wrong about something? 4) Are you aware of trustworthy securities out there? I (or maybe a group of people) might be willing to enlist your services for information on trustworthy securities.

Services depend on difficulty. If I am provably wrong I will, try until I get the correct information. If I can not get the information in a timely manner I will refund in whole. I am aware of a couple of real securities. Just message me what you have in mind, I can get you a qoute.
Once I turn information over its yours, if you want to print it out and post it to telephone poles I could give to shits less lol.

If I have enough interest I will start a Verified by "catchy name" type service for securities and people. The information would be held in private until... well we all know lol. But it would give piece of mind to consumers know that they are dealing with who they say they are.

Even if you know all there is to know about someone, they might still scam you, or their business will fail and than they will run from trying to pay you back. Having their information helps, but that alone is not a basis to invest in someone

No but you can sue the pants off them for fraud. Fraud is fraud no matter if its a box of popcorn or a security. Its the act not the product that U.S. law defines. Oh yea and do not forget the great catch all Conspiracy if they had 1 trace of intent to defraud, they got you.


Had a great conversation with a lawyer in FL about coinpal who told me some tips lol.

People that invest $50 bucks in something aren't going to spend thousands of dollars + time suing. Not to mention if the court of law even says if your investment is valid. Buying equity with BTC is not legally secured

Hahahaha, good on ya mate!  By all means dig away, I'd be very interested to see what you can find!  However, if you manage to find the address of my private residence, can I please ask you to keep out of the public domain?  I would prefer not to have to worry about my family's safety should someone decide that I'm 'super scam escape plan guy #1' or some such BS.

I'm also very keen to hear your theory about how I am somehow linked with both CoinPal and CoinReturn (other than having invested in both of them).  This should be fun! :D

Bring it on bro!! :D

How about that ID you said you have?

What fresh faggotry is this?
This is the long post you've been composing for days? 

Bring it... please do not post my address lol I just skimmed it the first time

I have created a new thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=665833) for shareholders to discuss the current issues and possible next actions.  It is a self moderated thread so we can keep it on topic and clear of the general BS we have seen in this thread.

Honestly, I do not see anyone trusting you to moderate a thread when you have defended such things in the past.

Here is a action form if you are interested in doing something
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZdMuZ6emClxG5UkQLYI7Ktz7O1P71HfGQu0Xpca-CPg/edit

Lol, so SamboNZ starts a self-moderated thread on why this is not a scam and why he won't release the dox he claims to have.
Self-moderated.
Sounds legit :D

I defend no one, I simply state what I see based on the facts available vs pure speculation.

If you actually took the time to read what I have to say, you might gain an understanding of why I won't release them at this point.

The first thing I do when I hear something is a scam is look to see if samboNZ has defended it, if so it must be a scam lol.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, be it based on actual facts or not :)

The facts are, both things I have seen you stick up for are scams. So your track record proves your judgment in securities is not the best. Sometimes its best just to not say anything buddy

By all means, feel free to not read my posts.  I will be devastated of course, but I do my best to find a way to cope...  :'(

I can't speak on past situations but at least the person is taking some initiative on this. There's plenty of apparent bagholders that would like to see some action, closure or both.  Some talk is better than none I'd say.

You won't release them at this point because you either don't have them or you're in on the scam.  Anyhow, go to your self-moderated cage pl0x.

http://s17.postimg.org/pjh49q1hr/littlefaggot.jpg

Sambo and all colleagues investors,

although I personally believe, that whole CoinReturn is a scam, I appreciate Sambo's work. Please keep us updated in the future about the progress. Hope that all ends well and that at least some of our investment will be repaid.

We must keep in mind, that Sambo is not the enemy here and that he only tries to resolve this issue. Maybe he is naive, but at least he is not sarcastic and rude.

This situation(s) is (are) calling for some action - maybe we should form an Investor Coalition to resolve such plausible fraud cases. What do you think? Maybe some more professional approach would bring some useful information. But first, would you file a lawsuit against those three persons, if you would know their IDs?

Casco

Hello Tom Jeff SamboNZ NEWFRIEND!  Welcome to Bitcointalk!

Your Fabulous Friend,

http://s21.postimg.org/pp49gd4pj/ohai.gif
Rarity

Put your name on the list, I will contact you after a week or so with more info. I am already handling 2 other cases just like this.

You really have sarcasm problems. Yes, I am new on this forum, and FYI, I am not really involved in this case, as I lost quite small amount on it. River, I put my name on the list...

@NotLambchop:  I can vouch for Mr. Casco, he's totally not anybody else and exactly who he pretends to be, I'm super srs.  He and I get drunk and go out investing all the time together.

Warmest regards,
http://s21.postimg.org/bp3lachsn/ohaibob.gif
IPO Magic

Get drunk and go investing lol How does that turn out for you?

Pretty much always like this :(

I really doubt we ever drank anything together :)
But you had to be srs drunk, if you invested big BTC on this Security, LOL. It was my first 0.06BTC investment, probably I bought your shares. So, if you laugh hard on trolling me, guess how hard I am laughing, kisses  :-*

Have you thought that maybe these guys are in Brazil for the FIFA World Cup.
They stopped paying dividends the same day that World Cup began.
But unfortunately, many people have liquidated their shares so quickly...
If I'm right, what were a simple vacation of owners of CR, now became a big problem,
because all shares are undervaluated  :-\
I agree that they should posted a message, but I live in Argentina, and I know that in Brazil there is a great caos right now.

Are you really comfortable with this excuse? Why wouldn't they tell you in advance that they are planning on taking a vacation? Even if they did that or that was true, would you feel comfortable with the guys who were hoping for volatility taking a huge, unannounced break during the most volatility in months?

Yes I agree, perhaps they ran into Luis Suárez, who just happen to be carrying some Father Beans and a nice Chianti

Didn't Mr. Tom mention that he was a decent, God-fearin' American?  In US, we don't care much for soccer, we prefer cheap hookers and shit blow 8)

I'm not confortable. I have shares too, and if I sell them now I will get satoshis. But, it happen to me to travel with my notebook assuming that I will continue working, and arrived to cities where internet is expensive, wi-fi places sucks and have no signal, and the hotel connection is saturated. I don't condone them. This is not a valid excuse for me. But, I'm trying to think what is happening.

Other possibilities:

They are [all] on a corporate retreat--an African safari.  In wild fisticuffs with local fauna, lions consume cell phones.
On special mission, under the sea in a Virginia class nuclear sub.  Horrible cell reception and lousy WiFi.
Exploring the caves of Lascaux.
Held captive by Somali pirates (who commandeered the nuclear sub).

All perfectly reasonable ::)

If Heath Robinson was to put the events into words, it would no doubt reads as per your 'Rube Goldberg' World Cup scenario... dis aliter visum

Classic!

You all should really read this SamboNZ post he is asking investors for money to Hire a PI. I offered to give him a phone number for free... He said he can not trust me with someone elses I.D. Um why do you care, if its not your I.D.?  That guy lol

Some people have something called 'Integrity'.  This means that when they make a promise, they are true to their word.  I know you may find this to be a difficult contact to grasp, but nevertheless it does in fact exist.  I made a promise to Tom that I would keep the details of his licence private, and that's what I intend to do.  The only way this will change is if I am convinced that CR is a scam, at which point I will re-evaluate my position.

But thank you very much for confirming that I have made the right decision by not revealing any of Tom's information to you; your consistently unprofessional, petty, and generally immature outbursts reinforce my view of your general trustworthiness.

yadda yadda your stalling, Thanks I know I am pretty  :-*

LOL, treasure that little typo buddy, it's likely to be the only compliment you'll get from me!

Eh, what kind of evidence do you need to be sure its a scam? I don't think they're going to send a notarized letter via certified mail saying "WE'RE SCAMING YOU!"

Lets face it, if it wasnt a scam they would have contacted us/you in some way, shape, or form to let us know.

Yes Robert, you are a very pretty junkie

https://i.imgur.com/F483CgS.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/xrrMQSG.jpg


People have also started tagging you as a known scammer, and you response is very similar to all accused scams.

For more info: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=665033.0

bet you 100BTCs thats not me lol

Any news? Do we have an estimation on how many people were scammed in this case?

Have 5 people on the victims form so far
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZdMuZ6emClxG5UkQLYI7Ktz7O1P71HfGQu0Xpca-CPg/viewform?usp=send_form

It is not a surprise that people don't know about this forum  :-\
Is there a way that Cryptostocks sends a group e-mail to all stock-owners, that disclosed their addresses?

During the period where CryptoStocks didn't process deposits and withdrawals, CoinReturn sent out an email to everyone who had their email address disclosed on CS. (Un)fortunately they put every mail address in cc: rather than bcc:. I still have the email, with the then 134 shareholders who had disclosed their email.

Regarding SamboNZ

You guys know that he's playing games with you right? He wont give you that ID. It just does not work like this. If he could and he wanted to, he would have done it by know and everything - EVERYTHING - he's saying is utter and complete bullshit. I know that some of you will come to his assistance and say "But Nooooo, he has integrity and he's our only hope..." and what not. But he is nothing of that. I dont know why he keeps fucking with this thread, but I just wanted to inform you, that you will get absolutely NOTHING from him that will help you with this scam.

You Idiots.

ANY of you who give THIS bullshit a single thought "hm, maybe they DID go to Brazil" I tell you: You are Iditots.

I think that COIN - ScryptCloud is going the same way as RETURN. No response, no action, no announcements, no communication...

Onoes!  Sambo got burnt by a private dick! 

Poor guy just can't get an even break...

The logic is flawed, I lost money to a scam... But I am going to shell out more money to TRY to get my money back. What a fucked up way of thinking.

This is so obvious, guys

Moar hard-boiled private dick lore from teh self-moderated thread:


ORLY?

http://s8.postimg.org/tgiuicdx1/ham.jpg

They stated getting their Titans on the 12. July and starting mining then. Alarmclocks ringing as Titans had tape out in June, so end of September they will be shipped.

errhmmm the guy mentions 5000% returns in OP.

which part of this wasn't a scam ?

or did you all think this was basically one of those times were someone is so smart they could be rich all by themselves, but they decided to share the wealth ?

Pretty much bump, but with a helpful clue for SamboNZ and his pet private eye.
From coinreturn.me:

"Who are you guys? Tom Mica, Jeff Lombard, and Tony Dewitt. We are three friends ... We are not saying we live in the U.S. but we have all visited Tacoma, Washington and found it to be lovely."

~*Theatrical winking, followed by snare-to-hi-hat Cra-Chssh!!*~

http://gamevuze.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Clue.jpg

Lol, totally unexpected!


P.S:  SamboNZ, if you're not a part of this scam, do your parents know what you post on teh interwebs?

I got a heap of new info on this case, I am looking into it this week is pretty busy in my personal life so give me a little bit of time to check everything out.

you're doing it wrong.
you need a hire a private eye. then report back with the "info"

Hey NotLambchop you seriously need to learn how to comment on the internet!!1! Here's how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJu2G1dvTIU
This tackles youtube and girls but I bet you can transfer the lesson!

^
https://i.imgur.com/mg14XLU.png

junkonator, I craft my comments for accessibility to my target audience--teh denizens of this board.

still waiting  to hear how 5000% in OP isn't a hugeeee brightly colored red flag, waving in the wind........

??

As you may know Scrypts Mining (aka SCRYPT on Cryptostocks.com) announced that they will receive KncMiner Titans and start mining on July 12th. However, KncMiner Titans are still in production and will not be shipped anytime soon (ETA is around September).

So, I reached out to admin of Scrypts Mining, and asked him why he announced that the miners will arrive soon. Below is the response:


So, SCRYPT is certainly a scam just like RETURN. I believe, he will start giving dividends after July 15th to attract shareholders and sell more shares, but eventually he will disappear. Just wanted to share and let you informed.

People deserve to hear about the 5 foot jizz harpoon!

SCRYPT has been clear with their intentions, just a lot of time has gone by and they did announce news.

i guess you can be sure sambo is part of the scam. its schematic putting a guy to defend your project before the scam and after it not to let the people freak out or investigating on their own.

1. sambo is talking about an id but not putting the information online so anyone could search for a way of looking for marons who are having all the stolen bitcoins (180 btc).

2. he is related to the other scam project on CS so its obvious that he is not having a white vest.

ask sambo for the id number or birthday of the 'fake' id by yourself....

sambo thinks we ALL are twelve years old....

i am just counting 1+1 together. facts... pure... I see you making smoke around.

1. As long you are not publishing the ID which could lead to a proper way of investigation, you are part of the scam story.
2. You are telling us stories. I knew already the end of it before it was told by you.

I dont know what is bullshit, what not. I cant. I WISH I COULD.

So now you fighting, someone saying you are a scammer too. Dramatic, not? I am not interested on it.

I just dont trust you and the facts speaking for not trusting you, because you dont play open cards, what ever your reasons are not speaking facts or truth (blackmarking the id) .


The evidence you are part of the scamm, is that you are not speaking facts or truth (blackmarking the id). Cant you follow that conclusion?

-Make a poll to release the ID. Be democratic, that would make you less a scammer.
-Release your ID to everyone. How can you be talking about legitimacy, without being non legitime? Thats a joke in the world of adults. You can just scamm teenagers with that.

I could continue ..... but

-you cant release your ID, because you dont want to play in a world of adults.
-you dont want to release coinreturn id, because you want to keep playing with teenagers.

So. Want Wasting more time?