Several other questions regarding Widgetco. :
Would Widgetco be allowed to use the money they collected from pre-orders to run research and operations before they have shipped the orders?
How would that money be accounted for on the balance sheet?
Would sales tax have to be paid when the item is shipped or when the money changes hands?
It is a good question, but I am not sure if it is relevant to consumer protect and contracts. This is more a question for an accountant. I was musing about damages and what Widgetco might do with the pre-order money. Did they use it as an investment or loan for operations? Did they earn interest off it? If so would interest over the course of the order be considered part of the damages? |
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The delivery order is the same. Upgrading will change nothing except your unit(s) power.
Yes but someone has already stated they are using different chips for this upgrade, not just a firmware upgrade. In which case it's new untested parts which require a new prototype and therefore means old chips they have in hand goto old design spec and presently ready sooner than the new chip based designs and orders... I figured it was the result of BFL binning the chips. The boards support multiple chips, so they could arrange them in any configuration that makes economic sense. 2 binned @ 3.5GH/s, One binned @ 3.5GH with one binned @ 2.5GH, 2 binned @ 2.5GH/s, etc I suspect that this is sort of a bolt on for the Jalapeno units, since originally they were supposed to be a single chip at a single performance point. Now that it has multiple chips, and the chips have multiple bins they have more flexibility in the product line. |
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I'm loving the Top Gun theme. please, carry on  I am just happy somebody got it.  |
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Several other questions regarding Widgetco. :
Would Widgetco be allowed to use the money they collected from pre-orders to run research and operations before they have shipped the orders?
How would that money be accounted for on the balance sheet?
Would sales tax have to be paid when the item is shipped or when the money changes hands?
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If you ever wanna see a a refund, better get it now, they obviously won't be able to cover for everyone.
You know they have been paying 25 employees, suppliers, facilities, Josh's life insurrance, a few Nexus 7 and fans, etc. for over a year using your "pre-order" money, right ?
It would be against the law if they touch my pre-order money. Unless they shipped my unit, they are not allowed to do so. Once BFL goes belly up it will be interesting to see if they've broken this law. Gray area. It's perfectly legal to use your funds to develop and ship a product AS LONG as they deliver. That would be a good question to ask on the legal forums.  |
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And there you have it. Firms don't do silent partnerships, because they can't. Not all VCs work for firms. Regardless, I don't have a dog in this fight, no idea if they do or do not have any outside investment happening or not, my beef was with you speaking in absolutes. My issue was with your statements. You said "If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested." which is patently false.
The discussion was about whether a VC firm invested in BFL like they claimed. Thanks for agreeing with me. I trimmed out all the nonsensical haterade and insultifying you do. It isn't really relevant. Did they say the VC was through a firm? You said "firm". I don't see where they said "firm". Actually, you said "Firm or individual" and then LATER said "Firm" and are now acting like that was your position the entire time. The beginning of the discussion was here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215699.msg2305852#msg2305852That thread contained a link to this press release: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htmHad you bothered to read the press release or the thread you would have seen: Retail sales have continued to grow strongly, and with exponential month-to-month sales increases, the decision to back BFL was made easily. “Butterfly Labs has strong fundamentals indicative of the kind of rapid growth company we support,” the private equity group notes. “Having made bold investments in new technology, they’re poised to redefine the landscape for SHA-256 hash verification.”The bolded part "the private equity group notes" indicates a firm. Why would they refer to an individual silent partner as a "private equity group". Also note the use of the pronoun "We" in the phrase "We support" right before the bolded part. Unless the private silent partner refers to him or herself in the plural third person, it indicates a group or syndicate of investors. You have a tendency discard any information that proves you to be wrong/lying, and post things entirely out of context; so I'll just go ahead and put that back for you. You have a tendency to flail desperately against anything that puts BFL in a negative light. Especially anything presented by me. Your ego is writing checks your fingers can't cash. You can be my wingman any day! Bullshit, you can be mine! yeah, you guys should get a room We have a room. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=76.0Are you suggesting a different room? Did I provide too many citations for my position? Were the links too intimidating? |
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And there you have it. Firms don't do silent partnerships, because they can't. Not all VCs work for firms. Regardless, I don't have a dog in this fight, no idea if they do or do not have any outside investment happening or not, my beef was with you speaking in absolutes. My issue was with your statements. You said "If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested." which is patently false.
The discussion was about whether a VC firm invested in BFL like they claimed. Thanks for agreeing with me. I trimmed out all the nonsensical haterade and insultifying you do. It isn't really relevant. Did they say the VC was through a firm? You said "firm". I don't see where they said "firm". Actually, you said "Firm or individual" and then LATER said "Firm" and are now acting like that was your position the entire time. The beginning of the discussion was here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215699.msg2305852#msg2305852That thread contained a link to this press release: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htmHad you bothered to read the press release or the thread you would have seen: Retail sales have continued to grow strongly, and with exponential month-to-month sales increases, the decision to back BFL was made easily. “Butterfly Labs has strong fundamentals indicative of the kind of rapid growth company we support,” the private equity group notes. “Having made bold investments in new technology, they’re poised to redefine the landscape for SHA-256 hash verification.”The bolded part "the private equity group notes" indicates a firm. Why would they refer to an individual silent partner as a "private equity group". Also note the use of the pronoun "We" in the phrase "We support" right before the bolded part. Unless the private silent partner refers to him or herself in the plural third person, it indicates a group or syndicate of investors. You have a tendency discard any information that proves you to be wrong/lying, and post things entirely out of context; so I'll just go ahead and put that back for you. You have a tendency to flail desperately against anything that puts BFL in a negative light. Especially anything presented by me. Your ego is writing checks your fingers can't cash. |
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Jesus, let it go man. Nobody wants to hear you two argue. Get a room.
Unfortunately there is not one useful BFL thread on this forum, they all get trolled instantly. Considering that forum members probably have hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of USD invested in BFL pre-orders, I think the trolling is rather irresponsible as the members deserve useful information on their investment without the deliberate disruption of content. Yep. Can't discuss the things that don't add up. Doing so is trolling. Blind optimism is the only acceptable response. Pirate40 and Zhou Tong did not exist. No pessimistic views are to be offered in threads where someone asks "Should I stick with BFL?". I would like to see at least one heavily moderated information thread on the progress of BLF pre-orders.
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/Enjoy your heavy moderation in moderation. |
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And there you have it. Firms don't do silent partnerships, because they can't.
The discussion was about whether a VC firm invested in BFL like they claimed. Thanks for agreeing with me. I trimmed out all the nonsensical haterade and insultifying you do. It isn't really relevant. |
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They said they have VC funding. They did not mention which VC firm (or individual) invested in them. They did not mention how much was invested in them. There were no filings to add people to their board (which is what happens when someone puts a chunk of money into a company). You should examine other press releases by firms who have gotten venture backing. If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested. Moreover, the firm also announces the investment and pla News: All users of Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind versions 0.7.2 and earlier are required to upgrade to 0.8.1 or apply a manual workaround by May 15. More info. ces the company in their portfolio page. If the amount was paltry (like $100,000) then they probably just want to say "backed by VC" and let people presume that they have funding. "Always"? You speak in a lot of absolutes... Ever heard of silent partners/investors? Not everybody who invests in a venture wants their name on the building, or in the newspapers.  VC firms don't generally do silent partner investments. We were talking about Venture Capital funds, not an angel round or rich uncle taking a stake etc. There is no "stealth mode" consideration here since BFL has been broadcasting their intent and methods. "Generally"... A minute ago it was "Always" now it's only "generally". Fine. There is no single example that I can find of a Venture Capital firm attempting to keep their investment portfolio secret due to the reporting requirements forced upon them by their limited partnerships and the federal government. If BFL got anything at all, it was not from a registered VC firm. Butterfly Labs would have added a director to their board upon investment from a VC firm which would involve a filing where they were incorporated. |
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They said they have VC funding. They did not mention which VC firm (or individual) invested in them. They did not mention how much was invested in them. There were no filings to add people to their board (which is what happens when someone puts a chunk of money into a company). You should examine other press releases by firms who have gotten venture backing. If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested. Moreover, the firm also announces the investment and places the company in their portfolio page. If the amount was paltry (like $100,000) then they probably just want to say "backed by VC" and let people presume that they have funding. "Always"? You speak in a lot of absolutes... Ever heard of silent partners/investors? Not everybody who invests in a venture wants their name on the building, or in the newspapers. VC firms don't generally do silent partner investments. We were talking about Venture Capital funds, not an angel round or rich uncle taking a stake etc. There is no "stealth mode" consideration here since BFL has been broadcasting their intent and methods. |
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If you can sell your Jalapeno for $3000, then consider this:
$3000 can buy 250-300 Avalon chips. Those can hash at 300 x 280MH/s per chip = 84GH/s.
Even if it costs you half of that $3000 to have them put on Klondike boards, you still turn 5GH/s into 42GH/s in 2-3 months.
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They said they have VC funding. They did not mention which VC firm (or individual) invested in them. They did not mention how much was invested in them. There were no filings to add people to their board (which is what happens when someone puts a chunk of money into a company). You should examine other press releases by firms who have gotten venture backing. If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested. Moreover, the firm also announces the investment and places the company in their portfolio page. If the amount was paltry (like $100,000) then they probably just want to say "backed by VC" and let people presume that they have funding. |
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I think the real problem is whether BFL will run out of cash before shipping all the devices owed to customers. It seems they are using pre-order funds for R&D, therefore they may not have enough funds left to ship to all the customers.
This isn't a real concern. They start shipping at reasonable levels, they will NOT have cash flow problems. They won't have to even begin to clear the backlog. If they shipped 1000 units in a week, enough people would jump on the bandwagon to cover shipping with ease. of course the odds of them doing that don't look to hot.. Unless they can't make enough money per unit to pay cost of goods, salaries, rent, etc. They are getting their chips in low quantities which means they are using what is called a Multi-project wafer (MPW). That means the chips are anywhere from $40 to $80 a piece. They originally planned on putting one chip per Jalapeno, but now they have to put 2 per Jalapeno. The chips are easily the most expensive part of the device. They have to make 60,000 devices and that will cost them at least $6 million, probably more like $12-18 million just to buy the parts for them. In 2-3 months the Avalon based Klondike boards arrive and triple the mining difficulty. Can BFL get enough pre-orders in now to make enough product to matter? |
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Does the OP take credit cards?  |
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Ohhh are people going to rise up and take back the NIGHT!
No, but BFL investors should just be aware that BFL does not have the right to retroactively cancel a contract on a whim. But do you have a bfl order - 3 times now [EDIT] we know you are 42 - you answered that - can you say whether you have a bfl order - simple question really... Gee, I wonder if the answer is in my post history. Ok no answer I guess. Interesting. [EDIT] I read enough of your post history by page 5 - to last me a life time... reluctant to go there again... You won't go look for the answer to your own question, even after someone tells you exactly where to look. I am shocked, SHOCKED, to find out there is intellectual laziness going on here. |
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I keep forgetting this is about money, when looking at this thread from another angle, instead thinking about those stock related "Buy now!" or "Sell now!" threads it all makes sense. These negative posts are all about maxing your own profits by making as many people as possible get refunds.
If they took those refunds and bought Avalon or ASICMiner with them, the money would probably show up sooner in the network hash rate. So no, as a miner we would prefer if every single BFL investor left their funds in Josh's hands. However, Bitcoin has to grow up at some point and that process means kicking to the curb the scammers and their prey. |
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Ohhh are people going to rise up and take back the NIGHT!
No, but BFL investors should just be aware that BFL does not have the right to retroactively cancel a contract on a whim. But do you have a bfl order - 3 times now [EDIT] we know you are 42 - you answered that - can you say whether you have a bfl order - simple question really... Gee, I wonder if the answer is in my post history. |
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I'm more worried the project will fail in ways so we all get refunded (my order was placed in early October).
This is flat out dreaming. If you ever wanna see a a refund, better get it now, they obviously won't be able to cover for everyone. You know they have been paying 25 employees, suppliers, facilities, Josh's life insurrance, a few Nexus 7 and fans, etc. for over a year using your "pre-order" money, right ? Hell, the infamous quarter might even be yours...  Not to mention a warehouse supposedly full of entirely the wrong casings... Don't forget the fans.  |
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Ohhh are people going to rise up and take back the NIGHT!
No, but BFL investors should just be aware that BFL does not have the right to retroactively cancel a contract on a whim. |
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