Hi, the guy making the auction is me. I had an early pre-order and I paid almost at the end of the 7 day period they offered to early pre-orders to complete payment and keep their place in line. That is why my actual order number is not so low, but my early pre-oder was in the 6XX.
Best regards,
Do you mean that your order number chages when you make the payment? I think it stays the same regardless of what you do? |
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You seem like a person, who can successfully analyze and understand legal information, so can you help me clarify this statement from here: Intra-Community acquisition of goods
The place of taxation is determined by where the intra-Community acquisition of goods is made (i.e. the Member State where the goods are finally located after transportation from another Member State).
Goods acquired by a taxable person acting as such (a business in its business capacity) or by a non-taxable legal person (for example a public authority) are subject to VAT. For simplification reasons, goods acquired by a taxable person covered by the SME scheme or the flat-rate scheme for farmers or by a non-taxable legal person are not subjected to VAT if annual acquisitions are below an annual turnover thresholdpdf(14 Kb) set by their Member State (minimum EUR 10 000), though it is still possible to opt for taxation.
The acquisition of goods is taxed in the MemberState issuing the VAT number (Member State of identification) under which the acquisition is made. Should the goods be transported to another Member State (Member State of arrival) tax must be paid there. This will be followed by an adjustment of the VAT paid in the Member State of registration. Examples of the two situations are as follows:
taxation in the Member State of identification [Article 41 of the VAT Directive]
Example 15: French VAT must be paid on goods acquired from another Member State by a company under its French number for use at its factory in Strasbourg.
Example 16: Where a company acquiring goods from Spain provides its supplier with the VAT number under which it is identified in Slovakia, VAT must be paid on the acquisition in Slovakia.
taxation in the Member State of arrival of the goods [Article 40 of the VAT Directive]
Example 17: If goods acquired by a company using its Slovakian VAT number are in fact sent from Spain to Germany, VAT must be paid on the acquisition in Germany and any tax due in Slovakia (see above example 16) will be reduced accordingly.
The bolded text and specifically the one in red is a bit unclear to me - Does it state that if you are not VAT registered (non-taxable) legal person and your turnover is below a certain limit then you should not pay VAT (not subjected to VAT)? |
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Avalon Shmavalon. Back onto KNCminer's order numbers... they have " Day 1" and " Day 2" as some kind of shipping batch identification. I figured they could ship a few hundred 4RU machines a day, if that... So this guy is just now auctioning a "Day 1" order with order number #1824: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=268149.0So which of the following applies?? - Day 1 doesn't actually mean the first day of shipping.
- There are a lot of unpaid orders up to order number 1824.
- Somehow KNCminer will be shipping almost 2000 x 4RU units in a single day....
There are a lot of unpaid orders generally. When you submit an order you are allocated an order number and even if you don't pay it still stays in their system. A friend of mine just placed one - Order ID: 52xx More important is how many of these 5200 orders are paid for and real - this information would be very valuable in establishing the expected (very rough) estimate of the future hash rate, thus easier to calculate possibility of positive ROI. Because right now I don't really care how much net profit I can make as long as it is positive. For example even with 1 billion difficulty it still makes sense to mine with KNC Miner and it is very simple to calculate returns - 1 billion difficulty equals 7158.278TH/s, so if you have 400GH/s miner = 400/7158000=0.0000558815 shares of the 3600 daily coins=0.2011734 coins per day=6.13BTC per month. |
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I agree with, because after I posted my comment I researched more and came to the same conclusion as you  So the only way to reclaim VAT on mining equipment is against goods and services sold, which are VAT rated (zero, 5% or 20%) I wonder what these might be? |
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You will need to be present at a fixed address in that country to answer an automated phone call with a pin.
They will also deposit two minor payments in your account in the currency of the country the account is being set up in and will require you put those to amounts in as another pin code.
They can also ask occasionally for a scan of passport/drivers licence etc. the biggest ballache is waiting for the two small amounts to show on your bank statement. Faster if it's internet banking...
Edit: actually this applies to UK, so you probably know this, unsure if same verification steps apply elsewhere. I know Spain has very strict privacy laws typically a scan of National ID and utility bill from a fixed address that has to be verified by a member of personnel.
Scan of an ID card won't be a problem, but a utility bill might be as I don't live there. Might as well just do the bank transfer when I decide to as it looks like PayPal will be too much hassle. I had to verify my account for Paypal to let me use a CC to pay for a Jupiter. Wasn't a huge deal. Dunno if that applies in other countries besides US tho.
It probably does. I have a verified account in the UK, been using it for years. I don't think it's possible, no.
The problem with the exponential increases in the calculators' models is that while the diff has been rising exponentially it's doing so with mere linear inputs of money into mining equipment. And that exponential performance gains have come from bringing to bear modern computing technology on the problem, ie: ASICs.
Eventually we hit a wall where we've wrung the most efficiency out of existing tech and at that point, everyone's who already hit positive ROI on their equipment will be cemented in place with their existing market-share, because it won't make financial sense for others to jump into the game unless they can produce a far more efficient miner technically--and they won't be able to. We're looking at 1 or two more generations of mining products (barring some major tech advancement in the chip industry like carbon nanotube chips or something), and if the price of bitcoin doesn't rise dramatically again in the next years then that's the state of things, people mining late this year will probably still be mining late next year.
The bitcoin community doesn't have exponential money to put into miners. So those calculators are off with their projections by early next year, around June I'd say is where we hit the wall and there won't be anywhere else to go. That will be the new normal, probably around 500 - 750 million difficulty as an offhand guess.
Thank you for your valuable input I'll post my own speculations a little later when I run some numbers Good find The financial landscape might have changed since I last checked, but I still believe most UK high street banks such as HSBC, Barclays, Nationwide, etc are still charging for SEPA payments. Some time ago they were even clueless as to what SEPA is. That is probably because euro is not the official currency in use and the same applies to the country where the finances for the ASIC purchase are. But as I mentioned earlier it is pointless to transfer the money to the UK - that will incur more charges. The best and cheapest way is direct SWIFT transfer in USD. |
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I've been looking into potential ROI in relation to future Bitcoin difficulty and it looks like it would still make sense to run a Jupiter machine with 1 billion difficulty.
Which made me think - is there a way to calculate difficulty based on network hash rate?
If we can sum up a very rough estimate of the new ASIC machines being delivered and added to the network and the removal of most GPU miners (who pay electricity) then we can calculate again a very rough estimate of the future difficulty.
And again by rough I mean down to hundreds of TH/s.
Or in other words do you it is possible for difficulty to surpass 1 billion this year?
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@CYPER couldn't you just use paypal, but pay via bank transfer (not sure if there is a limit) if you have credit card listed in paypal but select transfer via bank account then transfer is instant just like using credit card. just an idea EDIT: you can also add multiple addresses in 'your account' at KnC That's a good idea I somehow missed. I don't have a PayPal account in the country, where the funds are, but I can create one. I believe instant bank transfers are not possible, but the payment can be funded through the debit card, that will be issued by the bank. But for such a large transaction there will be PayPal limits, which I have to remove first. Need to research into this. |
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I find your statement confusing/confused. If you are sending EUR from a EU bank (not the UK one, that other EU bank you mentioned) using IBAN+BIC to Bitstamp's EU account, it is a SEPA transfer and falls under the SEPA regulations (no fee, 1-3 days ETA). Bitstamp will do the EUR/USD conversion at a decent rate. I have never paid a fee for it and it gets there within 3 days.
You are confused, because you believe that all SEPA transfers should be free, which is not the case. For example UK banks will charge you  And the banks in this member state I'm talking about will also charge you It's basically the right of each bank to set the fees - maybe because the official currency is not euro? |
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Any comments on my thoughts?  |
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Can you not email KnC, and request whether your order can be broken into multiple manageable chunks for your ccard? That would also validate your earlier question as to whether it is worth splitting your total order into three separate purchases. Your issuing bank may have a limit to which they will protect you, that's your research to undertake, but this would make sense to me, offer consumer protection and potentially save you wire transfer fees.
I know perfectly the advantages of paying with a UK issued credit card - Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states: 75. — (1) If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor.
But even so the number of CC I have and the credit limit on them is still not enough for this purchase, which is irrelevant, because I want to use my financial assets in the other EU country to fund this purchase.
Dont send EUR through SEPA to their account. Your transfer will be returned! Ive already lost about 100EUR to learn that.
Ive asked to update that info on their page few weeks ago and they promised to do it.
Thanks for the warning, but that is quite logical and common sense - don't send different currency unless you have written confirmation from KNCminer. Another this that is unclear is if KNCminer are paying any additional fees for incoming USD payments into their bank accounts? |
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Sorry, but what is the issue with you and credit cards? Do you not have one?
I have credit cards, but none of them have a limit close to the amount needed for my order + I currently live in the UK and I have financial assets in another EU country from where I intend to make the payment, thus shipping and billing addresses will be different. |
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-0.15% of the *SPOT* price (theirs I would think, not FOREX), 2 days after you send.
I know that Bitstamp is about 4% cheaper (!) for me on the SPOT... (ex: I would get 1.26 for USD at my bank and 1.31 at Bitstamp).
It's irrelevant, because in order to get money into Bitstamp I need to do a SEPA transfer, which is even more expensive: 110 euros fixed fee for for amounts from EUR 10,000 up to EUR 25,000 And even if it was free to do a SEPA transfer I would have used TransferWise, which are probably cheaper than Bitstamp? At the moment just for comparison 10000 euros = 13,214.93USD in KNCMiner bank account. |
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Call you local branch and ask them for a quote. You know the amount of USD to send, you can check the cost then (xe.com for exchange rates).
Alternatively, I would suggest (if you have the time to get verified) to open an account at Bitstamp.net (a BTC exchange) with great EUR-USD exchange rates (and you can make SEPA deposits) - also useful for selling your BTC in the future. Transfer money, buy BTC and pay KNCMINER in BTC through BitPay.
I know it's cheaper for me (taking into account the various fees along the way) than using my main bank for EUR/USD exchange, but your mileage may vary.
edit: of course, paying in BTC pretty much guarantees you'll lose your money (i.e. no Paypal/CC buyer protection) if KNCMINER is a bust.
I will call them tomorrow as they don't work on weekends to verify my findings anyway. I am MTGox and Bitstamp verified and was thinking about paying in BTC, but don't like the idea of zero protection in case of a bust Not that direct bank transfer is much more secure, but still there are records and there can be consequences in relation to these records And direct bank transfer is not that expensive according to their tariff - 0.15%, min. EUR 15, max. EUR 200 + compulsory SWIFT messages, which is EUR 10 per page. |
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SEPA is €uro only payment.
SEPA regulates bank transfers (fee + delay) denominated in Euro between EU banks, using IBAN + BIC information. However, if you have, say, a USD-denominated account in a EU bank, you should still use the IBAN + BIC codes to makes a transfer to another EU bank, the difference is that the transfer fee/delay is not regulated by the SEPA agreement (but you risk paying even more if you don't use IBAN+BIC). So KNCMiner require the incoming payment to be in USD, which means I have to convert whatever currency I have in my bank account to USD before sending it, right? In that case the payment would not fall within the scope of SEPA, correct? I'm confused because my bank has 2 categories for international payments with different fees, so which service do I use? Outgoing transfers : a) Ordered by clients of FIBank with a SPOT value date (2 working days after the day of the order) - 0.15%, min. EUR 15, max. EUR 200 b) for on-line transfers in EUR to countries from European Economic Area with indicated BIC and IBAN of the beneficiary and with shared transfer expenses (SHA): - for amounts up to EUR 10,000 EUR 60 - for amounts from EUR 10,000 up to EUR 25,000 EUR 110 - for amounts from EUR 25,000 up to EUR 50,000 EUR 200 - for amounts above EUR 50,000 EUR 280 |
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Guys, I have a few questions, so would be grateful if you can clarify them 1 - If prices for the miners are in USD and I would like to pay with bank transfer, then I guess the only way is international wire transfer? Can you pay with SEPA or it is only for payments in EURO? 2 - In order to save money on bank fees and exchange rates do you think it is allowed to use a money transfer services such as TransferWise - I send EURO to them, they convert to USD and send it to KNCMiner? 3 - Do you think there is any advantage of splitting a large order (2x Jupiters and 1x Saturn) into 3 separate orders? 4 - Do you think there is any difference in placing an order now or in 3 weeks in regards to delivery? Will there be a shipping queue with few units being sent daily or all early pre-orders will be shipped in September and everything else in October (if all goes as planned)? Thank you in advance for all you replies |
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I was too researching into the legal implications of VAT in regards to buying expensive mining equipment and selling the produce (bitcoins of course). According to HMRC you can voluntary register for VAT in cases where it would benefit your business such as: There are potential cashflow advantages of being able to charge VAT on your sales and claim back VAT on your purchases, which you may benefit from depending on your circumstances. For example:
if you sell zero-rated items and buy standard-rated items you would receive a VAT refund from HMRC
if you have not yet sold anything or don't sell anything during a VAT accounting period, you may still be able to claim VAT back on your purchases I believe the first scenario is exactly the case here: you buy expensive ASIC equipment to produce and sell bitcoins, which are zero-rated, thus you can reclaim all the VAT paid on the equipment. Correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Thank you for you reply again What I seem unaware of is if there is any allowed ratio between VAT you pay to HMRC for your outbound transactions and VAT you recover from HMRC for your inbound transactions or in other words how much of the VAT paid for the mining equipment can you recover in relation to the VAT you owe HMRC from your business activities? If you are a new business and decide to voluntary register for VAT, then you buy expensive equipment to produce goods, but the business fails can you recover all VAT paid for the equipment or just as much as you owe HMRC over the goods you sold, thus getting to a zero amount? |
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In regards to mining BTC and income tax I have a few thoughts of myself:
According to HMRC income from gambling activities is not subject to income tax.
Then I thought to myself - isn't mining just a type of gambling? - you are basically trying out your chances of finding a specific hash thought mathematical operations, right?
So if you mine some coins and then sell them, doesn't that constitute income from gambling, therefore no income tax is imposed?
Or one can take it even further - if mining is not considered gambling at what stage does the income tax come into effect? - when produced or when sold?
If it is when sold, what stops you from putting these coins in SatoshiDice and then sell the winnings for fiat currency, which in effect will mean you are not liable for tax. Obviously there is no way for HMRC to know if you really gambled everything you mined with SatoshiDice, so they will just have to take your word on it.
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