The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.
I'm fairly certain that is a feature, not a flaw. Alll I'm saying is bitcoin is entirely faith based because no issuer backs the value. This makes then entire system unstable and can crash if that faith is challenged What an idiot. Define value idiot. 10USD will always be 10USD but its value is never the same thro times. Exactly. With 1$, it is always worth 1$ because backed by issuer. I didn't say anything about purchasing power. But 1 bitcoin is only worth 1 bitcoin because users "believe" in it. There is no issuer to back the value. It could vanish. Maybe I'm confusing you w the word "value". If no one issued the currency then there is no one to take it back. If there is no one to take it back it loses its "value" |
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We are legally obligated to pay taxes in dollars or we go to jail. Its the only legal tender. This requirement insures a constant and perpetual demand for USD.
Is this the reason why no fiat currency has ever failed? Sometimes they just get really cheap, e.g., Weimar, Zimbabwe, Argentina, etc., etc. They usually fail because the issuer can't guarantee the future of its value. BTW bitcoin is also fiat except its not back by an issuer. Its magically made into existence through "mining". Fiat means it is not convertible to something else like gold |
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The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value.
I'm fairly certain that is a feature, not a flaw. Alll I'm saying is bitcoin is entirely faith based because no issuer backs the value. This makes then entire system unstable and can crash if that faith is challenged |
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Money and currency are virtually synonymous in everyday language.
Currency is a representation of money. One dollar bill represents 1 USD, 10 dollar bill represents 10 USD. Money are financial instruments. Dollar is a unit of account for Federal Reserve notes which is issued by US govt as promissory of "legal tender". Meaning the govt will accept is as payment of debt. i.e. taxes. That's what makes it money Apparently you believe that money does not exist without an authority. What a strange concept. Money is conceptual. Its an accounting instrument. A way to to keep score The reason it goes back to an issuer is that it is basically an IOU. So it requires an issuer to back the value. Before Central Banks, banking was DECENTRALIZED. Meaning each regional bank issued its own currency. Has nothing to do with authority. Just that the value of the currency is a promissory of the issuer. So if you receive a note from Citibank for lets say $1 of gold you need to go back to Citibank to cash in your $1 of gold. As you can see this made trading notes between different banks quite difficult. That's why we switched to Central Banking. W bitcoin there is no issuer. Bitcoins are magically mined into existence like fiat. The block chain is a ledger but there is no issuer to guarantee the value. Its entirely faith based. Thats why it's not good as money it only has value if the users believe in it. The USD is not like this. We are legally obligated to pay taxes in dollars or we go to jail. Its the only legal tender. This requirement insures a constant and perpetual demand for USD. You don't need to believe in USD for it to have value. Its this stability that allowed us to remove the gold standard |
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Money and currency are virtually synonymous in everyday language.
Currency is a representation of money. One dollar bill represents 1 USD, 10 dollar bill represents 10 USD. Money are financial instruments. Dollar is a unit of account for Federal Reserve notes which is issued by US govt as promissory of "legal tender". Meaning the govt will accept is as payment of debt. i.e. taxes. That's what makes it money |
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It's much more simple:
BTC is Money since others accept it as money.
Prior to the $10,000BTC pizza, the point was a lot more debatable.
You only defined barter not money. If I accept sea shells as payment for my pizza it doesn't make sea shells money. But sea shells can be money if The King issues it as money and he backs the promissory of its value |
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It is bearish, but it is true that Bitcoin isn't money, neither is USD, Euro YEN or any other currency out there. Currency is currency and money is money.
Money is things with true value that aren't based on someone promising you that it will be worth something tomorrow (certainly not a bunch of criminals), things like Gold, Silver, Platinum etc.
Not quite. Monetary instruments are financial instruments. Like all financial instruments, monetary instruments have an issuer who promises to do something in the future. There are one or two common promises embedded in monetary instruments. One is that they are convertible into something else, another is that the issuer will accept them as final means of payment from his debtors. Federal Reserve notes currently only contain one promise, the government will take them in payment at anytime (either directly or through the banking system in case tractability and security of payments are required). Gold itself is not money but gold coins are monetary instruments. Gold coins have an extra feature, they are collateralized by the value of the gold content. Gold bullions were never financial instruments (they contain no promise), they are real assets, i.e. commodities (payments made with them are payments in-kind). Given the nature of monetary instruments, they have also other characteristics common to all financial instruments. First, all financial instruments are accounting creatures. They are the asset of the bearer and the liability of the issuer. Gold coins were the liability of, e.g., the King, Federal Reserve notes are liability of the Federal Reserve, and coins are the liability of the Treasury. Currency is their liability because they (at least) promise to take their currency from bearers in payments at any time; issuers owe that to the bearers. That is partly how their scarcity is controlled. Second, all financial instruments have a fair value that is defined as the discount value of future streams of monetary payments. |
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Yes the TARP was paid back in full except for Citi of which the Treasury hold common stock of C and will make $12B profit on the TARP program on selling the Citi stock. This is a fact.
Nobody is stopping you for applying for loan at a bank. If your business is so big that banks can't service you, then you go to the govt to get the loan. The role of gov in economics is to be buyer or lender of last resort. If they didn't provide this function there is nothing to stop a downward spiral.
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If you wish to opt in to taxation do so. If you don't don't.
Exactly. If I don't sign a contract in which I agree to do something for someone, then I don't have to do that something for someone. Be it paying money or working for someone. You don't sign a contract, you don't owe anything! You have grasped in this comment that what Govt's do is attempt to force you into a contract at birth. A contract with the whole state system. The excuse is you can politically change the system, by voteing or standing. The problem with this argument is you never agreed in the first instance to the form of the system, i.e. you never voted for that. And that keeps the large majority locked out. You never voted for the Constitution nor do you. You are free to move somewhere else |
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Receipts are proof of nothing though, i could fabricate them all day, are simple unprovable records all auditors are looking for, or do they require proof, and if so what proof could you possibly give them that you sold your tv for $200 and not $800, or that you sold your tv and not an ounce of weed?
If the IRS thinks all your receipts look legit, they won't investigate further. But if anything looks suspicious, they will investigate a few items and see if your story is true. For example, if you write on your taxes that you gave $1,000 in charity to your church (a tax write-off)... if the IRS audits you, they will ask you for your receipts. You tell them you gave cash, you have none. They will then ask for the name of your church. They'll follow up to see if you go there regularly. If the pastor knows you, they might think your donations are legit. They won't trace further than this, they'll trust you. However, if they ask your friends about your church, and they say you don't go, and the pastor never heard of you.... well the IRS will get upset, and charge you with fraud and fine you. They will then investigate deeper everything on your taxes, and audit you for previous years, and also audit you repeatedly in the future. YOU have to prove that you gave $1,000 in charity to your church, not the other way around. If the IRS is just suspicious, that's enough for them to charge you. (If you wrote that you gave $50 to your church, however, they won't even think of pursuing it, so how MUCH money matters a lot) I've been audited before. Its mainly an interview. My accountant made a numerical typo on some line item that didn't add up. I had a book full of receipts and they just flipped through it for 5 mins. All they wanted to check is if the it is truly a typo or intentional fraud. (the difference was like a missing zero) Then they just adjust your taxes based on the correction. BTW this was a business audit not personal |
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Gotta give props to the guy. RESPECT |
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You should get a respected economist like L Randall Wray to speak about Modern Money Theory and bitcoin
I think theres great debate about the currency aspect of bitcoin. Largely due to the 21M limitation. Because of this design it behaves more like a commodity rather than a monetary instrument
And for the same reason bitcoin became popularized as a "digital gold" attracting a gold rush of specualtors. Ironically I think its because of this quality that makes it not money
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China may be accumulating gold but its not to back their currency.
Their QE program is larger than US and Japan combined. Their Central Bankers are very Keynesian no way they would back their RMB with gold
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Its not even legal tender so the merchant would have to convert back to fiat anyways. If they need fiat to operate their business
The easiest way to do this is through a service similar to credit or debit cards. Isn't there some service for this already?
Its a pain to use bitcoins currency. No different if you work for dollars then instead of a checking account you buy gold. When you need dollars you sell that gold back to dollars to make purchases
Right but the goal of bitcoin is to be a global currency, not a commodity. It will never see widespread adoption if the consumer has to worry about tracking the price a BTC was bought for vs the price it is selling for when he goes to use said BTC in a transaction with a merchant. Imagine if every time you spent a dollar, you might be liable for capital gains tax because that dollar increased in value since you acquired it. It's not feasible. I agree w you. If they designed it as a curency then people would use it as such. But they designed it like a commodity and so no wonder it attracts speculators. IRS has to treat is as commodity due to current laws. Even as currency it can only exchange amongst an internal group like funny money in strip clubs or poker chips in casinos. Even those money are backed by the issuer. Who is backing bitcoin? I think it near impossible to invent a currency to compete or supplant w fiat like USD. Especially one with a political agenda which most people disagree with. The designers didn't really consider the economic reason for Central Banks or elasticity of money. |
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All bubbles eventually retrace 100% to pre bubble price.
Exactly what is Bitcoin's "pre-bubble price"? I don't follow bit coin price. But if you look at bubble charts its the price before the first quick rise. Usually it gets retraced 100% I only looked at the chart posted earlier I havent analysed it against charts of other bubbles. Just the similarity I saw right away is the time gap between that first rise, then a big pullback and the time gap on the next rise. So maybe the top was 1200 I don't have a position on bitcoin. If it was easy to short id short it Im only interested in bitcoin academically since I have a background in econ and finance. |
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Just can't compare this to a stock. Crypto currency has unique features and much more tangible usefulness. Until crypto trade is regulated, these violent value swings based on fud will be common
You can compare them from aspect of psychology. Candlesticks were invented in feudal Japan for trading rice. Its still used broadly by all traders today A lot of bubble charts look similar because what causes the bubble is psychological not fundamental. To me even your steadfast defense of your investment based on future unknowns instead of fundmentals is signs of bubbles. Bulls usually will convince themselves regardless of what reality throws at them. And a common defense "this time its different" |
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POS Android minting is the future
more Distributed and not dependant in big hardware to process transactions.
Less energy consumption, and really really fast confirmation speed.
That gives you three options: Mint (since early feb) BC sin late feb/march and ECC
Mint have better name and the comunity is not focused on price pumping, but in developing services
in the other hand, BC is more focused on price pumping trough multipool (ASIC will kill this)
ECC sounds like w0long, i bought a few at 6 an alredy put it on sale at 48, trying to get lucky
Mint is clearly the future.
Thanks for the info. So the app is called Mint? Isn't that a Intuit product? It's one of the altcoins called Mintcoin or MINT. It is now using Proof of Stake (PoS) minting which means if you have Mintcoins and just hold them, you get 20% more coins after one year. It's kinda like mining except you don't have to send BTC to some bogus website in hopes that they will send you an ASIC to mine SHA or scrypt coins with and not rip you off. You can mint with a laptop and so long as you don't move the coins and they just sit there, you get 20%.  Awesome will check it out |
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POS Android minting is the future
more Distributed and not dependant in big hardware to process transactions.
Less energy consumption, and really really fast confirmation speed.
That gives you three options: Mint (since early feb) BC sin late feb/march and ECC
Mint have better name and the comunity is not focused on price pumping, but in developing services
in the other hand, BC is more focused on price pumping trough multipool (ASIC will kill this)
ECC sounds like w0long, i bought a few at 6 an alredy put it on sale at 48, trying to get lucky
Mint is clearly the future.
Thanks for the info. So the app is called Mint? |
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If you've never seen bubble burst its a beautiful thing to see unfold.
I've been trading stocks and options since 99. Learned a lot those years. Saw the bust of dot com, real estate and now beginningz of tech 2.0 bubble burst.
Call me a noob if it makes you sleep better investing in a time bomb.
Its like the APPL cult of 2012. TSLA cult of 2013. Hard to call the top. But all the signs are there
Actually, the way I see it, everybody who is new to this market and legitimately has something to lose is panicking in reaction to news they don't understand. And, the way I see it, all the cooler, experienced heads are focused on the overwhelming positive news going on every day, all the time, on every continent. Seriously, there have been so many amazing developments in terms of infrastructure in just the past 3-6 months alone that I suspect there will be a *lot* of weak hands catching falling tears instead of knives. Edit: All the signs are there, eh? What about this sign?  If I superimpose AAPL chart from 2012 on your chart using same time frame it might look eerily similar. I have an interest in stock movement and I study bubble charts. You'd be surprised how many charts look similar. All the bubbles I studied develop in 4 stages. First stage is pretty flat with a slight rise w low volume. Then a quick rise with increased volume. This rise is escalator type rise. Then large corection usually retraced to some fibonacci like 32.8%. Then a short parabolic rise. At the top theres usually a technical reversal pattern like a head n shoulder. The bust is sharp but at a fibonacci again a small pull back. All bubbles eventually retrace 100% to pre bubble price. And it may start over as a bigger bubble or it goes sideways for a long long time like MSFT |
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