I was storing my seed first on paper... then storing it in the cloud.  Then in other location on paper.  I do however many times put it back in the cloud.  Yes for some reason, i like storing it in the cloud.  I know everyone hates this reason.  Also imagine you consistently abroad and don't really have a permanent address back home in the US, its like you are limited so to speak don't you agree.  So i stay with friends because of this when i come back home temporarily.  I carry my ledger with me when i travel, but the seed, i am not carrying it on piece of paper with me etc.  I mean imagine you lose it or for some reason customs seizes your stuff and check your stuff and say they go through your wallet and see those paper and know what it is.  They could literally write it down or take picture or something... then what?  Only way i would every bring my seed on piece of paper when traveling would be if i do a passphrase.  You agree on that right?  Would any of you here feel comfortable carrying your seed on paper when flying etc?  Imagine just getting searched for no reason etc.



I used to use electrum to send/receive.  It was very easy for me to send/receive with electrum as i found it very simple to use.  I did have issues though with like asking questions such as how to change sending fees and receiving addresses.  But i found it much simpler than ledger live.  Back then when electrum had updates, i just updated it.  Then when those phishing attempts happen, i tried to not log into electrum until i got a hardware wallet.  



Back then writing the electrum seed, i didn't think much of it because well btc wasn't worth much at all back then.  I even carried with me at times but that a while back.  Then i though... storing it in password manager is lot easier because everything is online etc.

Is the update the same way as it was done like in previous updates?  Going to update it later today soon.  But one issue i have is my internet has been acting up... and i read someone mentioned that is one concern of theirs.  Anyone had their internet go out or went slow while doing the firmware update and if something goes wrong, what happens?  For some reason my internet seems to not be that good right now... rarely is this the case. 

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Also are you suppose to remove the coin apps before you do the firmware update?  I do have btc, bch and btg apps installed.  Do i need to delete them before update or not?  I thought someone said a while back its better or it doesn't matter?

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So if that is the case, why isn't storing your btc and other crypto on coinbase a good idea?  Yes I know people say don't store it in an exchange... but isn't coinbase or gemini as safe as you can get?  I read people say for the average retail investor, storing your coins on coinbase is the easiest way.  But if someone has huge amounts... say 50k or 6 figures... would that be safe?  For some reason, I can imagine tons of people who invest in crypto... let say they put 6 figures, they probably put it there and don't even bother with hardware wallet.  Would you say that is accurate or not?  I am talking about ppl that are not that crypto savy and just do things normally like they do with stocks etc.



Coinbase seem to insure up to 250k.  So if someone had that type of money, wouldn't it feel safe to still store it there assuming they don't want to store their own seed?  Since doing this, someone could make mistake writing seed, lose their seed, seed compromised etc.  I mean you don't need to know your seed... don't need to protect your seed.  And if you have issue you contact coinbase and send your verification documents to them again. 



But that coinbase vault.  Anyone have experience with it?  I read Vaults also go through a secure approval withdrawal process after creation.    That seems very secure but how is this process?  If that is the case, couldn't someone with like half a million dollars or more trust that vs storing it in their own hardware wallet... where they always need to make sure their seed phrase is protected?  I mean... I can't imagine someone like Elon Mush or Max Keiser or people with tons of crypto have their own seed to protect?  I heard its under custodial accounts... which is what coinbase and coinbase vault is right?  The idea of not having to protect your seed seems really appealing. 



Does gemini offer something like this as well?  I heard someone mentioned some sites offer services like this but they charge a lot for it?



I mean not having to have your seed protected... seems much better. 

So I created a few threads about where to store your seed for your wallet whether its a hardware wallet like nano ledger/trezor or software wallet like electrum.  Of course with every option, there is pros and cons of each. 



Now the more I think about it... if you keep it in an exchange but very reputable... think coinbase/gemini or maybe kraken/binance... isn't that pretty damn safe?  But when i checked coinbase, they also have this thing called coinbase vault which apparently makes it even safer?  I see that it seems to insure up to 250,000 usd?   Or is that just coinbase in general?



The thing is what does that protect you against?  I mean if someone hacks your account somehow because you didn't have two factor authorization, then you are screwed right?  But what if you have two factor authorization and someone does that sim swap i heard of?  What happens then?  Now what if you use google authenticator or authy as your two factor authorization?  Does that protect you or not?  I also heard cases of two factor authorization getting hacked which i thought was not possible.



I do know if you use your phone as your two factor authorization and you lose it or it broke, its a huge hassle contacting coinbase as i recall this a while back.  You had to reverify your documents if for example you lost your coinbase secret key right?  Because a while back my phone which was my two factor authorization... i forgot if i used authy or google authenticator but i know i didn't have my secret key.  Is that the coinbase key?  But after a while, they were able to confirm my account.

Hey HCP, yea i know almost everyone hates my idea of storing it in the cloud.  But obviously im not doing it the worst way possible... which would be unloading a document or picture unencrypted... in the cloud.... that would be probably the worst idea.  The same as if you just type it in wordpad and leave it on computer unecrypted etc. 



My method was... store it in password manager.. and upload it to cloud like dropbox/gmail.  No axcrypt.  I mentioned axcrypt because if someone types it in document... you use axcrpypt to encrypt it.  With password manager, well its already encrypted with your password manager.



Yea human memory is bad and will fail.  I got to wonder... what percentage of ppl actually remember the password in their head?  Some people say its easy if you keep repeating it everyday... that to me is beyond silly don't you agree?  I mean the seed is a damn 24 words.  I could see someone possibly doing this as use their memory if its 12 words... but double that is just ridiculous.  That to me is probably the worst way to do it even worst than storing it in the cloud unencrypted or taking a picture because you will easily forget it.


Paper can be destroyed by fire/water.  Yep.  And yea metal plates... i mean it probably looks important so it must mean something.


I didn't really even think about the safe deposit boxes can be seized until recently.  I only thought about it being drilled without owner consent by mistake or like the owner didn't pay the fee... or theft.  But i heard theft is much more rare on safe deposit boxes.


Online cloud storage... yea i know it can be hacked.



Can you give me at least 5 ways it can be fail or lost/stolen/damaged with safe deposit box though?  I could think of theft, drilled incorrectly, owner didn't pay the yearly fee, government seizure... and the bank manager/employee stealing.  So that is 5.  Is that the 5 ways you are also thinking or could you think of another reason for it?  But the main thing that you need to be concerned here is seizure... because with the other situations... they only get half your seed... not your full seed though so that isn't going to do them much with have a ledger seed right?

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So let say you are not concerned about seizure.  If no concern for that, the multiple safe deposit boxes with seed broke in half in two different safety boxes probably would be best right?  Come to think of it... having a passphrase would pretty much secure it almost always here right?  Let say you type your passphrase in multiple usb sticks encrypted and even upload it in the cloud?  Then aren't you pretty safe then?



I also just thought about one last idea.  I know you going to hate it because well its an online cloud solution.  But you get a brand new computer or wiped computer... download password manager.  Enter half your seed on it.  Then upload it to dropbox or gmail.  Then you do the same thing with the other half of the seed in another password manager but do this with another dropbox/gmail of yours.  Then to make it even more secure, get a passphrase and put that in a different password manager copy.  While you are doing this, make sure this device is a brand new or wiped laptop. 



Then whenever you want to access your seed... only use this computer to or get a computer that is fully wiped... before logging into dropbox/gmail to access this in the cloud.  Obviously this is tedious and cost you more money if want an extra computer ... but wouldn't this make it pretty damn secure?  You got three different dropbox/gmail email accounts where you store the seeds broken in two and passphrase in the other.  So someone will need to hack all three of your cloud accounts... in order to access your seed.  And remember, they need to know each of your three email usernames and passwords... and of course your password manager password.  Though i probably would uses same password for all three password manager.  But they going to need to know all three different emails of yours.  Isn't this a damn tough task?  Think about it... imagine you only log into those dropbox/gmail accounts only to access your seed and you only do it on your clean machine. 



The only thing is you need to make sure you never forget your three email addresses and passwords and of course your password manager password.  That isn't that bad right?  I mean you could even write your passwords in your safe deposit boxes as well.  But they won't know what is the email connected to each of them.  And its not hard to remember three email address accounts.  And remembering your password manager password should be something you shouldn't forget if you use it for a while.


Do you see a flaw with this though? 


I would like to know has there been people who put their seed in multiple safe deposit boxes like in two of them broken in half and got their seed compromised?  I don't think i ever heard a case like this ever which make me think this is probably the way to go.

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Okay so with usb stick etc, you say airgapped computer required, then obviously i can't do this.


Yea seems like almost everyone hates the idea of storing seed in password manager in cloud.


The extending your seed thing... i know its an advanced step but for some reason i just dont feel comfortable doing it with one device for some reason. 


Are you people storing passphrase in different location from your seed then?  Yea i know you should always write passphrase down just in case.  So its like you need to make sure this word is far away from your seed?  Then again, i got to assume people have it in their home as well with their seed but different location?


I use axcrypt to encrypt many of my documents.  That isn't safe at all?  I had no idea about open/close source but i always heard open is better. 


Yea i know usb stick, hard drive etc fails.  But the way people say keep multiple backups, it seems like ppl say just backup your seed in multiple usb sticks encrypted etc.  So it would be hard for all of those sticks to go bad... say imagine you had three of them etc.  Yea i know its digital way.. big difference is though its not uploaded to the cloud.  But of course you connect to a computer that might have malware/keylogger... then that isn't good.


I am in a hot/humid region throughout the year, thats correct.  But someone mentioned you could also put it in a airtight container with those gel packs to keep moisture out so thats a way to protect it.

Wait so people who use passphrases have multiple passphrases?  So you mean they have a main wallet with their nano ledger... but also have more than one hidden wallet in it?  I thought it was like if someone had hidden wallet.. it was just one?




I get the it gives you more security.  But haven't people messed it up by having this passphrase either by screwing it up or forgetting password etc? 




I did hear people say the most things you do, the more you would get confused etc.  So someone that only has their regular nano ledger seed and their nano ledger... if they were to create a passphrase now, that would be simple.  My concern is when they start sending the big portion of their btc balance to the hidden wallet, there might be something going wrong etc.  Like its safe creating a passphrase/pin for it.  Then send tiny bit of btc to it to test.  Then once you do that, log in your nano ledger with your original pin and see your main balance.  Then unplug...log in with the other pin/password... then see your tiny balance for now... once its there.  Then unplug from laptop, and then plug back in and put in original pin to log in main wallet, then send majority to the hidden wallet right?



Also, wouldn't you need to literally copy/paste that btc address you sent to in the first test transfer?  Since when you connect to your original pin and ready to send the rest of your btc to the new hidden wallet, well you can't see the hidden wallet address since you only have just 1 nano ledger s instead of 2?  Or do most people who do this... usually have just 1 ledger nano?  Like imagine someone who have just 1 ledger nano device and then go... wait i want to create a hidden wallet and send most of my current balance there.  Seems like a silly mistake could happen when doing this with just one device or not?



Well I stored it in the cloud a while back and I didn't have issues though.  Again, I did mention i put it in password manager, so in order to get in, you need that password for that.  But you also need my cloud username and password etc.  But i know the main issue is if you get malware/keylogger, then that is very bad etc. Well I mentioned... i thought cloud seems great since any theft or fire... you are protected against.



What about people who say they store it in usb drives and encrypt it?  Isn't that bad as well since when they say this, they mean they typing the seed in wordpad or something and then encrypting their usb stick?  Since doing just this means you put your seed at risk since you are typing the seed on the keyboard?  I assume if one wants to store their seed in multiple usb sticks, either store it in password manager and then encrypt their usb stick so they have two forms of security?  Or they could type seed in wordpad and encrypt it with say axcrypt?  Then encrypt usb so still two forms of security?  But if you don't put it in the cloud and encrypt it in multiple usb flash drives, you would agree better with password manager then wordpad encrypted right?

Well if i get usdt... i want to be able to send it to say coinbase and then convert it to fiat... to bank account.


Such as if i want usdt first sent to my nano ledger first.  How would i request usdt from a site since i want it sent to my nano ledger first as oppose to coinbase since going directly to coinbase.

So basically this person puts it underground near their house right?  I got to assume their backyard?  If not, that would be bad right since what if people just go start digging the ground etc?


You say it would be fireproof, but what about earthquake or massive flood or something weird like that happening?  Of what if some weird creature is underground and start eating everything?  Im not sure that is possible with my last example but i dont think its impossible?


The backups of seed in flash disks... how does one do this?  Type it in wordpad and encrypt document with program like axcrypt?  Then also encrypt the usb as well with password?  So one needs two passwords to get in?  But if you put it i flash disk... you mean usb flash drive right?  Then don't you need to make sure your computer has zero malware/keylogger?  Since when you put it in flash drive... well you are essentially typing it on a computer though right?  Because people say never enter it in a computer ever... so isn't entering it in a flash drive the same?

What chain is USDT on coinbase?  On nano ledger... do you have option or only on ETH?  I heard there is ETH, TRON, binance chain etc.

Thanks.  But anyone here know for sure which program has none of this?  Would it be fine downloading the same ytd downloader as years ago but the updated version?

Isn't the main concern for those with hardware wallets the seed and thats it?  I read if you get malware on laptop while doing transaction, they will change the btc receiving address on the ledger live and also the ledger nano screen right before so you can confirm this?

Okay i think i might have to do this firmware then... because i wouldn't have the opportunity to do it in a while maybe.


Did anyone here had issue with the firmware at all?


Also anyone here using old firmware that is at least l year old or more?


I also read somewhere on reddit... that few people had issues entering your seed phrase in recovery where it kept showing the seed is wrong.  But after trying it multiple times, it eventually showed as correct.  Saw a few people mention this on reddit.


Could firmware update possibly cause something like this with the ledger recovery app saying incorrect seed when you input it?

Thanks HCP for that long response.


Still not sure if its good idea to have this 25th Word or not.  I mean what you described with just deleting each time from ledger live... that seems very tempting to do.


But i also hear about people forgetting their 25th Word/passphrase as well.  But then again, you could literally type that in password manager and store it in the cloud right?  You have to say... that is probably safe to do as long as your seed phrase is in written form whether on paper in apartment/house or in multiple safe deposit boxes right?

I thought about one major issue with storing seed in multiple safe deposit boxes even broken in two parts.


If the government were to for some reason seize your bank accounts... then aren't you basically screwed then?  Like you get subpeona or something like that on your safe deposit boxes?


So wouldn't one way against this in case of something like this would be... seeds in safe deposit boxes... broken in two parts... but making sure you have a passphrase to it... and remembering it but also storing that on a password manager in the cloud?  I mean as long as you remember your passphrase or your email/cloud username/password and password manager... you are fine.  But the issue here is if that is your only copy in the bank safe deposit box... then that won't work right?  Since if you have seed in your house, well they could possibly seize that too?  Or its mainly bank account and bank safe deposit boxes when you hear cases like this?

Do most of you put an extra word to it like the 25th word/passphrase to it?


If so, do you keep it in the same location?


What about your seed in two safe deposit boxes at two different banks... and your passphrase at your apartment/house or even saving it to a password manager?  I mean if you get hacked on password manager, they only have your passphrase.

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Did he encrypt it or were his documents just out in the open?  I heard if you encrypt it in google drive, its generally safe.

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I just did transfer with ledger nano to coinbase and put small fee and transaction got confirmations but it took a bit.  I put a bit less than l0 sat/vb as sending fee


That small transfer is in coinbase now and was already deducted from my nano ledger history.


So right now im going to send a bigger btc balance from nano ledger to coinbase.  But when i go to coinbase, and click on receive address... its a different btc address?  Is it because of change address?


Also when i sent btc earlier... it showed tiny amount of btc... but it also showed the whole transaction as a big amount of btc


Like imagine


X amount of btc   -   tiny small of btc transferred
                               
                              difference between x amount of btc and tiny small amount of btc transferred



It showed like output 0 and l etc.


This is normal right?


Also it showed the transaction as a bigger amount of btc, much more than what i sent... i literally sent like l0 dollars.  That is normal right?



But i should have no issue copy and pasting that new coinbase receiving address they gave me?  But i could still put the same coinbase receiving address if i wanted to right?


Thanks.

Not using your home wifi?  I dont get this part.  I mean even if you visit bad sites... it shouldn't or can't affect your wifi or internet connection right?

How would i do this?  I dont know anyone personally.  You mean talk about waves on other forums or something?  This is literally one of the few forums i visit etc...

 I want to test a tiny btc deposit to my coinbase address since i never sent one to it just in case.  Then i would send a bigger amount.  If im going to test say a l0 dollar btc transfer from nano ledger to coinbase, you would recommend send with a cheap fee right?  Risky to do this with say 5 sat/kb?  Or should i do more?



I just took a look right now and on mempool it shows


Low priority
35 sat/vB
$2.89


Medium priority
56 sat/vB
$4.63


High priority
91 sat/vB
$7.53



About 12 hours ago or a bit more ago, i remembered the low priority was much lower and so were the other ones.  So basically if you are not in a rush, check this site to see what is the low priority, medium priority and high priority correct?


Im looking at the latest transactions and it seems almost everyone is putting at least 20 sat/vb with the majority of the fees being like 80 sat/vb.  That is normal right when thats how the low/medium/high priority fees look like now?  So that is why i almost see no transaction like last night when many fees were around 5 sat/vb?


Also is there a way to see the transactions without it going so fast like on mempool?  I want to look for people who pay a low transaction fee like say 20 sat/vb or less... and are sending say up to 5000 dollars for example.  Like i just copied and paste this transaction


https://mempool.space/tx/6bc68b7e4b8fda1cf03aac76ec5b9fb1d22eb44a67efd524dc5c6a62c04ded2e


So this person paying

Fee   3,859 sat$2.26
Fee rate   17.2 sat/vB


‎0.08661796 BTC or around 5000 usd.


I see it immediately shows ETA is l0 minutes or l block.  Then a minute later... 20 minutes or 2 blocks.   Im going to see how long it takes for this transaction to confirm.  So after it shows l confirmation on the transaction, its pretty much confirmed right?