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1021  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Livecoin.net Scam on: July 09, 2019, 06:39:22 PM
Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Yes, that's exactly right. Because you know why? I don't consider 1 complaint by 1 user a good enough reason to trash an exchange of Livecoin's magnitude, longevity, and standing.

Look at what this thread is filled with: 12 pages of various DTs and wannabees hemming and hawing over the issue and zero other _actual_ victims. I've given red trusts to scammy exchanges before BUT only after it was apparent they had scammed multiple users. The reason for this is that running an altcoin exchange is a novel, legally murky business, and every exchange worth its weight in salt has plenty of complaints against it.

I gave several concessions during the course of my posts here that blocking the user for the reasons given wasn't right, and also agreed they should alter their TOS. I encouraged Livecoin to consider unblocking the user account and letting them withdrawal their funds. They're not going to do this; this became evident about 30 hours ago -- so what else is left to say?

I didn't abandon the sig campaign 30 hours early because I don't believe I'm at risk of "promoting a scam exchange." I still don't consider Livecoin to be scammers -- if this offends you, tag me for it.
It’s good to know you believe it is okay for someone to selectively scam those who do business with you. This has been noted.
1022  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: July 09, 2019, 05:12:49 PM
No. if Lauda is excluded from DT1, he cannot be on DT2. I think your assumptions as to whose votes count might be flawed.

If you are on DT1, your trust list flows down regardless if your ratings show up or not.

Loyce is right. Excluded DT1 members can't "vote" for (or against) DT2 members. So Lauda gains DT2 "strength" compared to the previous DT1 "strength" because exclusions from TECSHARE et al don't count against Lauda anymore.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;full;dt
A review of the OP and the rules for DT, it appears you are right.

This appears to be a flaw in the logic of how DT1/2 voting works. 
1023  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: July 09, 2019, 04:48:35 PM
Lauda had (2) net-inclusions on DT1.
Lauda now has 6 net-inclusions on DT2.
Lauda got blacklisted from DT1.

I have 2 scenarios
1: suppose Lauda wasn't blacklisted, but got 3 more exclusions from other DT1 members. That would mean Lauda was removed from DefaultTrust entirely.

2: the current state (Lauda blacklisted from DT1). Now suppose Lauda gets the same 3 exclusions from DT1. That would mean Lauda still has 3 net-inclusions on DT2 and remains on DefaultTrust.

Am I correct here? If so, it is possible that a DT1-exclusion leads to a member being on DT2 which wouldn't happen without blacklisting. This is probably caused by the fact that excluded DT1-members can vote against other DT1-members, but they can't vote against DT2-members.
Is that the intended behaviour of the DefaultTrust system?
No. if Lauda is excluded from DT1, he cannot be on DT2. I think your assumptions as to whose votes count might be flawed.

If you are on DT1, your trust list flows down regardless if your ratings show up or not.
1024  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: July 09, 2019, 04:07:35 PM
Lauda should be blacklisted for what happened when the flag system was implemented
I think it's commendable that theymos is trying to not be a dictator here.
Update: Lauda has been removed from DT1.
Great! This is an appropriate change for the reasons I previously cited. It is also appropriate to blacklist him manually rather than let it happen over time also for the reasons cited previously, although he may have requested to be blacklisted.
1025  Other / Meta / Re: "Decoded" comprimised on: July 09, 2019, 02:39:42 PM
What was the domain you were using?
1026  Economy / Reputation / Re: Quickseller is a dangerous person to deal with - avoid on: July 09, 2019, 01:55:29 PM
Here is something crazy — perhaps Hhampuz saw what I was doing when I messaged the LiveCoin signature participants and saw that I really am looking out for others and for the good of the community.
1027  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Livecoin.net Scam on: July 09, 2019, 01:22:32 PM
OP could be a liar but the facts are facts. Livecoin openly admitted to holding the dudes coins. Their ToS is shit. The amount was pennies too which is baffling. You cannot hold a persons account/money hostage until they delete posts or bad publicity.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you here and will be removing my signature at the end of the day. We tried to steer them in the right direction, but it does not appear they want to be steered.
Lol. You are removing your signature at the end of the day because their signature campaign is ending at that time and you will no longer be getting paid to advertise for them. Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.
1028  Economy / Services / Re: Gamblingtec Signature Campaign | Get BTC or your own casino brand on: July 08, 2019, 11:11:03 PM

I have also messaged game-protect to confirm/deny that he is holding money in escrow to guarantee payment of participants.
As an update, I have received no response from game-protect, even though he has posted since I sent my PM.

Also:

Payment method: BTC | GamblingTec is trusted since 2006

Domain name: gamblingtec.com
[...]
Creation Date: 2013-07-21T12:12:46.00Z
[...]

The underlying company has been around since 2006, it owns hundreds of brands... GamblingTec.com is one of them.
Do you have any update on your escrow agent confirming he is in fact holding signature campaign funds for you?
1029  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Livecoin.net Scam on: July 08, 2019, 07:11:55 PM
Well at least I can say that I tried. I am not happy with the response LiveCoin gave in here and I have given them my notice that the Campaign will end after payments have been sent out tomorrow. And as I previously stated, flag me or neg me I really could not be bothered but I'll be damned if I ever succumb to bullying by users who's entire existence appears to be spreading negativity and putting others down. But then I've come to expect nothing short of just that which is why this forum matters less and less with each day passing by.

@OP. Hope your situation gets a resolution, I'm officially done and I'm out of here.
Thanks for doing the right thing.
1030  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Livecoin.net Scam on: July 08, 2019, 05:42:08 PM
They will ignore the flag whether we support them or not

I think that should be abundantly clear by now following from the reply they have given today. And to see things in the correct perspective, it is not just "the remaining signature bearers" who oppose the flag. There are quite a few forum members who just disagree with this mostly unfounded accusation. But you can always accuse them of having vested interests (like, for example, using that exchange for trading)

The signature bearers are the only ones who might have some influence. Whether that would be enough to sway Livecoin or not - that's another discussion. I'd think that the amount they spend on advertising here is a good indication that they see value in it and perhaps wouldn't want to lose it over a ridiculous TOS clause

The tail wags the dog?

And what influence do we have exactly? Tomorrow (technically, Wednesday) is the payday which may well turn out to be the last day of the LiveCoin signature campaign. And if it does end tomorrow, it will be the impasse you are talking about. Ironically, to resolve the situation every party here (well, mostly) should be interested in the continuation of the campaign as all of us ("the signature bearers") are unanimous that the account should be unlocked, the user let in and then let out (more like kicked out, but you get the point)
The signature bearers are continuing to support LiveCoin via advertising their signature in exchange for payment.

Ideally, a reputable signature bearer would cease displaying their signature once they determine that LiveCoin has scammed at least one of their customers as is the case here.

I don’t think the signature campaign is going to end. Hhampuz needs the money too much to close the campaign down and LiveCoin wants the advertising. It appears there are enough people with positive reputation (on its face — this will likely change) who are willing to ignore the scam in return for the 0.02 they are receiving.
1031  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Flagging user broke an agreement and leaking confidential information on: July 08, 2019, 02:52:20 PM
I think Salty said it pretty accurately

the basic definitions of financially harming someone doesn't apply because you don't like them. Thats not how things work, and it speaks very poorly to all of your characters. It feels like I'm in the flat earth thread. I post "did someone lose money as a result of another person's action" and the response is, PROVE THIS PERSON IS ROUND IF THE SUN IS 1000 MILES AWAY.
1032  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Livecoin.net Scam on: July 08, 2019, 02:16:46 PM
You know I'm not a big fan of Quickseller but him supporting this accusation doesn't make it any less valid. I would prefer him to not use this for personal attacks against Hhampuz, just as I would prefer you to not turn this into a Quickseller conspiracy, but we can't have everything we want, can we Smiley

I think that the flag holds some merit AND Quickseller is using the situation to exact his revenge.


I think Hhampuz should have done the right thing and close down the LiveCoin campaign. I get that the ~quarter BTC is a lot of money to earn from running it every month, but there is a good amount of evidence that LiveCoin is acting in a way that a reputable person should not want to be associated with -- preventing customers who publicly criticize the company from withdrawing their deposits -- and no amount of money should compromise his (or anyone who is participating in the campaign) ethics. If I were in his situation, I would most certainly be unhappy about having to give up that income, but I unequivocally would have done the right thing.   


But, you know, facts don’t really matter. Do they?

It is clear that your opinion can be bought for something less than 0.02 btc/week. As such, it is worthless.
1033  Other / Meta / Re: DefaultTrust changes on: July 08, 2019, 07:25:32 AM
This was a rhetorical question.
Lol, I missed that Tongue

Quote
Lauda should be blacklisted for what happened when the flag system was implemented
I think it's commendable that theymos is trying to not be a dictator here.

OgNasty currently has 16 inclusions and 16 exclusions on DT1.
Lauda currently has 26 inclusions and 24 exclusions on DT1. A month ago, the number of inclusions was 26 higher than the number of exclusions.

Judging by these numbers, I'd say Lauda is now more controversial than OgNasty. I also think the current DT-system is something Lauda can't win.
I don't find OgNasty to be controversial. In fact, the only controversial thing I can think of OgNasty ever doing is wearing a signature of a shady company for a couple of weeks that I don't believe had actually scammed anyone (but IIRC were operating in a very shady way). When OgNasty was 1 of ~10 DT1 members, he had excluded many people who were very high profile because they posted a lot, but had no real trading experience and had no business being on DT.

In regards to your point that theymos is not acting as a dictator, you fail to account for the fact that whoever controls the algorithm controls the output. He also has great influence on the inputs by controlling the merit sources and how much each source gets. When google doesn't want particular pages displayed prominently on their search results, they don't blacklist websites, they just tinker with the algorithm to get their desired results.

There are also many examples of people leaving many controversial ratings over time who are already on DT who see no real pushback against their ratings. There are also examples of people facing retribution in the form of frivolous negative ratings (bill gator), and trust exclusions (bill gator and teeGUMES) for making statements that goes against the "crowd".

In order for the trust system to have any credibility, there needs to be rules (some of which were recently implemented with the flag system), and they need to be enforced (which does not appear to be the case). When the system is not being used appropriately, there needs to be intervention, period. If there is no intervention, those who speak out will see mass exclusions, and others will see this and be afraid to speak out. Without intervention, the forum will become more like most countries in the Middle east, China, or North Korea, in which citizens are jailed when they are critical of the government.
1034  Economy / Services / Re: Gamblingtec Signature Campaign | Get BTC or your own casino brand on: July 08, 2019, 06:44:23 AM
@Quickseller who's the escrow now?
I don't think there is escrow. I would recommend against joining at this time.
1035  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Flagging user broke an agreement and leaking confidential information on: July 08, 2019, 06:43:03 AM

It appears that xtraelv, suchmoon, LFC_Bitcoin, marlboroza are all abusing their positions in opposing flag #292 that is clearly valid based solely on evidence admitted to by the accused.

All of the above should be blacklisted from DT1/2

It appears that you are supporting a flag created by someone that appears to have violated the specific conditions of the alleged agreement. (i.e. trying to sell a hacked account)

The agreement is not alleged, the screenshots posted by bob (who is the accused) document him agreeing to purchase the forum accounts in question upon receipt of a PM, which he received. Bob has confirmed that he had no intention of completing the purchase despite his promise to do so. The account that is "hacked" has not proven to be hacked, nor was it part of the specific agreement bob violated.

In that case show me the specific accounts that he bought and show the proof. Because if you read the thread I quoted I showed why I believe there was no agreement and that one of the accounts the seller tried to sell is hacked.

First, if you are not familiar with the thread and situation, I don't see how it would possibly be appropriate to have a stance on the flag one way or another.


The evidence is in this post.


I have copied a portion of the screenshot linked in the above referenced post. If you review the screenshot, you will see that bob123 said he will buy [url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=167659] Ntrain2k
upon receiving a PM from the account. You can see in the below image that bob123 received a PM from ntrain2k:

You can see above the copied portion of the conversation that bob123 was offered a "green hero" for $550, and also that bob123 asked for PMs to be sent to "alice321" which they were.

Further, you can see this portion of the conversation posted by bob123:

Above you can see that bob123 agreed to purchase a legendary account for $600 upon receiving a PM from the account. You can see from the above screenshot of PMs posted by bob123 that a PM was sent from narousberg, which is a legendary account.

Further, you can see based on bob123's actions that he did not have any intention of actually buying the accounts up for sale, despite making the representation that he wishes to do so, which is a breach of an implied agreement.

I would have to scrutinize the details further to find additional agreements that bob123 broke, however the above more than demonstrates a breach of agreement(s), and as such proves the flag is valid. 
1036  Other / Meta / Re: Trust flags on: July 08, 2019, 06:42:41 AM

It appears that xtraelv, suchmoon, LFC_Bitcoin, marlboroza are all abusing their positions in opposing flag #292 that is clearly valid based solely on evidence admitted to by the accused.

All of the above should be blacklisted from DT1/2

It appears that you are supporting a flag created by someone that appears to have violated the specific conditions of the alleged agreement. (i.e. trying to sell a hacked account)

The agreement is not alleged, the screenshots posted by bob (who is the accused) document him agreeing to purchase the forum accounts in question upon receipt of a PM, which he received. Bob has confirmed that he had no intention of completing the purchase despite his promise to do so. The account that is "hacked" has not proven to be hacked, nor was it part of the specific agreement bob violated.

In that case show me the specific accounts that he bought and show the proof. Because if you read the thread I quoted I showed why I believe there was no agreement and that one of the accounts the seller tried to sell is hacked.

First, if you are not familiar with the thread and situation, I don't see how it would possibly be appropriate to have a stance on the flag one way or another.


The evidence is in this post.


I have copied a portion of the screenshot linked in the above referenced post. If you review the screenshot, you will see that bob123 said he will buy [url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=167659] Ntrain2k
upon receiving a PM from the account. You can see in the below image that bob123 received a PM from ntrain2k:

You can see above the copied portion of the conversation that bob123 was offered a "green hero" for $550, and also that bob123 asked for PMs to be sent to "alice321" which they were.

Further, you can see this portion of the conversation posted by bob123:

Above you can see that bob123 agreed to purchase a legendary account for $600 upon receiving a PM from the account. You can see from the above screenshot of PMs posted by bob123 that a PM was sent from narousberg, which is a legendary account.

Further, you can see based on bob123's actions that he did not have any intention of actually buying the accounts up for sale, despite making the representation that he wishes to do so, which is a breach of an implied agreement.

I would have to scrutinize the details further to find additional agreements that bob123 broke, however the above more than demonstrates a breach of agreement(s), and as such proves the flag is valid. 
1037  Economy / Services / Re: Gamblingtec Signature Campaign | Get BTC or your own casino brand on: July 08, 2019, 06:07:04 AM

I have also messaged game-protect to confirm/deny that he is holding money in escrow to guarantee payment of participants.
As an update, I have received no response from game-protect, even though he has posted since I sent my PM.

Also:

Payment method: BTC | GamblingTec is trusted since 2006

Domain name: gamblingtec.com
[...]
Creation Date: 2013-07-21T12:12:46.00Z
[...]
1038  Economy / Exchanges / Re: LiveCoin.net >Buy/Sell/Exchange>New pairs:BVK/BTC,APOD/BTC,KTETH/BTC on: July 08, 2019, 02:50:29 AM
They've admitted to being insolvent? It seems really irresponsible to allow trading of assets they don't hold in custody.

Seems like you're purposefully trying to conflate insolvency with being the victims of theft. They are obviously not insolvent, they simply don't have the Monacoin to reimburse their holders, and whether you agree with it or not, they feel they did not violate the terms of their agreement with their customers, and are under no obligation to reimburse them.

How is this anything other than being insolvent?

1039  Economy / Reputation / Re: Known Alts of any-one - A User Generated List Mk III (2019 Q3) on: July 08, 2019, 02:37:59 AM
Also are those accounts sending merit amongst each other?

If you go to https://bpip.org/ you'll be able to hunt out the answer to that question.
lobcmt2 has sent tbct_mt2 2 merit in as many transactions
motienvolam has sent lobcmt2 a single merit

Unless there is evidence they are sending merit via intermediaries, and I don't think there is, although I have not looked closely at this possibility, I don't think they are sending merit to eachother in any amounts that I would care about.

Each of these people has received a small number of merit from many people, with each receiving approximately two merit (+-0.75 merit) from each person who sent them merit.

I am still interested to learn about the “subpar thread creation” method to receive merit.
1040  Other / Politics & Society / Re: 2020 Democrats on: July 08, 2019, 02:02:28 AM
(maybe Williamson...I can dream)
lol, probably not.

Personally doubt she actually wants to survive far into the primary season, let along become president (although they said the same thing about Trump). I suspect her campaign, and appearance on the debate stage was a way to sell books, and I would not be surprised if she book sales ticked noticeably up after the debates.
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