Bitcoin Forum
April 28, 2024, 06:16:26 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 ... 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 [75] 76 77 78 79 »
1481  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 06, 2012, 10:54:41 PM
To those of you wondering why I'm posting these graphs, heres a little hint as to my motivation...

I'm curious. How this relates to freicoin or bitcoin?

If bitcoin protocol is going to start tracking interest rates in terms of numbers of blocks mined its a bit more important that the network stays at a 10 minutes per block rate.

So the charts were an answer to my "50000 blocks per year instead of 10 min per block"?


The charts were part of a design to a control system that will allow faster and more accurate adjustments of the difficulty.
1482  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 06, 2012, 10:23:19 PM
To those of you wondering why I'm posting these graphs, heres a little hint as to my motivation...

I'm curious. How this relates to freicoin or bitcoin?

If bitcoin protocol is going to start tracking interest rates in terms of numbers of blocks mined its a bit more important that the network stays at a 10 minutes per block rate.
1483  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 05, 2012, 02:08:33 AM
To those of you wondering why I'm posting these graphs, heres a little hint as to my motivation...

1484  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 05, 2012, 02:03:05 AM
Having a little fun at the moment



Figure 1. Frequency Characteristics




Figure 2. Impulse Response (Broadcom logo, dont let the exCEO know about the silk road)
1485  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 03, 2012, 10:36:37 PM
If I expect falling value doesn't that mean I have to inflate my prices?

surely I have to keep on increasing the price I require for what is left of my supply as the money I have aquired from what I have sold so far keeps vanishing from my purse


You have a very peculiar understanding of how a business operates. You might want to study "accurral based accounting" and "net payment terms" to get a better idea of how business works.

Essentially, there is a constant flow of money in and out of your business. If this is not the case, you are probably not running a very successful business.

You shouldn't have much of a "purse" and if you do it should be put into investments, not your checking account.

Demurrage works well for people with this style of operation, which is most successful people.

Your biggest expense in running a business, as always, will be other peoples time -- the cost of labor.
1486  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 03, 2012, 10:14:15 PM
They will probably even tip the poor bastard that brings them in freicoins and tell him how lucky he is to have a tip that will be worth less when he gets back to the restaurant than when he received it.


As I said earlier, with the current design it takes 16 years for a freicoin to halve in value. If it takes you longer than that to decide what to do with your money may I suggest a funeral plot? You can't spend the coins from below the ground. Most people will not notice the demurrage.

However, I think you will find the expectation of decreasing value will completely change the way people use this currency. If I know anything about markets its that they trade more on expectations and momentum than rational fact.
1487  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 03, 2012, 10:08:29 PM
1HzH4YtFwBQXyF2NCCwyY2qFCCsBsmdN3j
Total Received   0.20115289 BTC   
Final Balance   0.20115289 BTC

I lol'd.

I don't think the cross section of people that would be interested in this proposal, and the people interested in bitcoin would be very large. I certainly don't have any bitcoin. My only real interest in either is completely technological (i look at them as tools). However, if this project does everything they say they want to do I think many more people in the community will find this worthwhile.
1488  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 03, 2012, 09:52:25 PM

Edit: Another consideration. I think that at the very least the pruning technology should be separated from the campaign. It would actually benefit bitcoin too, so pure austrians could contribute with that one even if they think that the whole idea of freicoin is stupid.


If the aim was to create a simple clone of bitcoin with demurrage, sure. Don't you think that's aiming pretty low?

I would hope this currency becomes valuable because it is better than bitcoin (because it builds on it), not because it only copies it.
1489  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 02, 2012, 11:26:20 PM
Actually, we chose 4.4% because, it appears, I screwed up a calculation at some point (perhaps rounding error?). The goal was to pick a simple value that when compounded put us within the 4-5% range (I was advocating 4% at the time, jtimon 5%; I was hoping to split the difference). At some point I tried 8e-7 = (1/1250000), and calculated 4.4%. Of course I just did the calculation again and realized it's closer to 4.1%. I'm not sure how I made the error earlier, or if I was operating under different assumptions.

I also got an email from someone who pointed out that there might be potential for speeding up demurrage calculations if the demurrage rate per block were an exact power of two. 2**-20 results in about 4.9% annually. Of course maybe we should forget about future minor optimizations and simply fix it at 4.5%.

You're probably right... That  long string of numbers was me typing approximations (365.25) into calc.exe. only the best tools here Wink
1490  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 02, 2012, 10:37:53 PM

int64 CTxOut::getValue(int nHeight) {
   return this.nValue - (this.nValue * DEMURRAGE_RATE * (nHeight - this.blockNumber));
}


That wouldn't have the effect you think it would...   Lips sealed

You need this formula

Compound amount (single payment)  

return this.nValue *= (1 - i)^(nHeight-this.blocknumber);   // i is demurrage rate

annualized demurrage rate = 4.4/100=.044

i=(.044 interest per year)/(365.24 days per year*24 hours per day*6 ten minute blocks per hour)= 8.37e-7 interest per 10 minutes block

let me know if you see any mistakes

You can play with the effect here...

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpdiscountfactors/single_payment_compound_amount_equation.php

put I in as "-.00000083713850837138508371385083713851" and period as number of blocks to see how much your currency multiplier would work through time Smiley)


maaku choose 4.4% because he likes irrational numbers...  Using the generally accepted "rule of 72 " (we don't use the rule of 69 because that is a naughty number) we see it will take 16.363636363636363636363636363636363636363636363636363636363636363636363636363. .. years to halve your money Wink
1491  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 02, 2012, 10:17:34 PM

What I dislike are steps (in the curves) and complex signals to miners and prices.
What I want is smooth and derivates that converge at zero but don't cross it several times.


I don't think you have carefully considered the problem of synchronizing a system like you propose.

For instance, it would be possible to make a system where the difficulty of mining is constantly adjusted to global network hashing power, but a system like this would be very difficult to synchronize. The nodes couldn't agree on what blocks to accept or reject. Piecewise definitions of difficulty and generation function are unfortunately a consequence of the peer to peer network.
1492  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 02, 2012, 12:59:44 AM
This is from a larger work, Money: A new beginning.

Wow, that's a brilliant find. Very succinct and accessible.
1493  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Initial Bitcoin client development cost on: July 01, 2012, 10:25:42 PM
The first github commit (25 kLOC) would suggest that it took one person 70 months to develop, or 6 years, using the simple COMOCO model. This is entirely possible for one person to do, provided they are in some stage of their life where they can work on a project like this for an extended period.

The characterization that the client is missing security exploits is not true, nor does it remain true. I don't know why this security researcher would make this representation, but in my experience the statements of computer security people deserve scrutiny.

For example, an early significant exploit in the code allowed an attacker to generate 184 billion bitcoins.

It's clearly not perfect, but its better than anything that existed before it -- I'm sure we'll all agree to that.
1494  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 01, 2012, 07:20:32 PM
I'm going to assume that LoupGaroux is feeling injured because his first post, the only one not filled with hateful invective, was ignored. So, assuming good faith (a real stretch at this point), I'll attempt to answer his criticisms.

Sorry, but the whole concept of artificially implementing demurrage into a a mechanism of trade and value storage is antithetical to what having a free-floating value is.
How? You haven't specified how these definitions are exclusive.

It is not a means to keep currency flowing around in the economy, it is a means to have an authority (be it your General Assembly, or your blockchain structure, or your whip-yielders in government) to force the loss of value over time.
Yes, the blockchain structure is an authority, even in Bitcoin. Because you disagree with what is being accounted for by the blockchain does not invalidate the idea. I think the blockchain structure authority is greatly preferred to some other forms of authority.

Those in such an economy, having only the ability to spend to avoid an artificial devaluation of their labor or investment, will actively seek an alternative to that economy.
Actually there is an economic "law" that states the exact opposite. It's called Gresham's law, but it doesn't apply here because this currency exists without a state setting its exchange rate. However, it suggests that in practice nobody would like to spend their more valuable currency.

Far from investment in entrepreneurial experimentation, a demurrage-based coin will do nothing but bolster all OTHER currencies as a means to avoid having an external power destroy some of the value of my work.
Sorry, but just as capital has time-value, so too does the value of your work. Your desire for a system where its possible to coast off of personal wealth without contributing doesn't exist anywhere and can't exist. As the Bobby Dylan song goes "you gotta serve somebody."
1495  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: July 01, 2012, 03:39:30 PM
Give me your money so I can make you more money.


I don't think you seem to understand this concept very well. He's not offering to develop a speculative, get rich quick asset that will "make you more money." He's offering to make one that's better for exchange than Bitcoin.
1496  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 07:29:13 PM

A coin (medium-of-exchange) should be a store of value.  Both workers and grocers would prefer to trade a coin with a store of value.  People only save money to use in the future or to buy a bigger ticket item.

It's simply not a necessary condition. If you really want to understand more I'd suggest picking up this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1933633867

Or watch this interview with the author

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnOqanbHZi4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5c5mZhDs4U
1497  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
What he considered to be an appropriate amount. What else matters?


Please, let's try to keep this on topic and without trolling.

By the looks of things he is the only one that donated; donated 0.20115289 BTC Cheesy

http://blockchain.info/address/1HzH4YtFwBQXyF2NCCwyY2qFCCsBsmdN3j

The donation link is here http://www.indiegogo.com/freicoin?a=784965
1498  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 05:43:33 PM
smoothie: I'd be more likely to question the motivation of a cryptocurrency developer who doesn't ask for money.


Hmm perhaps then you should put your faith into what you wouldnt be more likely to question right?

Oh wait, you wont do that because you dont believe what you just wrote. Please prove me wrong and send the OP your money  Grin Grin Grin

I already have.

How much?

A matter of perspective: from your perspective, too much. From mine, not nearly enough.
1499  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 05:33:32 PM
smoothie: I'd be more likely to question the motivation of a cryptocurrency developer who doesn't ask for money.


Hmm perhaps then you should put your faith into what you wouldnt be more likely to question right?

Oh wait, you wont do that because you dont believe what you just wrote. Please prove me wrong and send the OP your money  Grin Grin Grin

I already have.
1500  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Freicoin: demurrage crypto-currency from the Occupy movement (crowdfund) on: June 30, 2012, 05:02:07 PM
smoothie: I'd be more likely to question the motivation of a cryptocurrency developer who doesn't ask for money.
Pages: « 1 ... 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 [75] 76 77 78 79 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!