After a disccussion an AML issue in December with HMRC Anti Money Laundering Supervision - they sought advice from hmrc policy team regarding bitcoins status they confirmed that at that time (late December 2012) they did not consider Bitcoin as either a currency or emoney.
We can call a Bitcoin anything but if there hasn't been a special policy put in place regarding bitcoins status how do you come to the conclusion it's zero VAT status ?.
Have you contacted HMRC ?, I need to ramp down all trades this week in order to keep under £77k. 3-4 months trading after April I could find myself in the same position again.
i never said zero rated as that is a HMRC category... here ill lay i out for you zero rated VAT is a category for specific items VAT exempt is a category for specific items reduced rate VAT is a category for specific items full VAT is a category for specific items now google "outside the scope of VAT" ill save you time http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/rates/rates.htm#5VAT is not charged (so it can't be reclaimed) on goods and services that are:
exempt from VAT
outside the scope of VAT ill highlight another HMRC quote Supplying goods or services within the UK. If your turnover of VAT taxable goods and services supplied within the UK for the previous 12 months is more than the current registration threshold of £77,000 its not a simple question of do you do over £77k income. that simply puts you into the BUSINESS category where you need to register with companies house and HMRC in relation to self employment/corporation status. not VAT Now then contact HMRC and ask them if bitcoins are INSIDE the scope of VAT, and if so which category, and why. u will be surprised by their reply... then ask bitpay, walletbit, bitinstant, blockchain.info(UK based by the way) why they are all government registered companies(companies house and foreign versions of such) yet they are not registered for sales tax/VAT. the key word "outside the scope of VAT" P.S and if your just going to look at blockchain.info and see a VAT number..and try replying back thinking you have proved me wrong without further research. Then please go check it out TQ at the start go on... oh wait its not valid.. lol its not a VAT number for any country. (its his way of saying "i look official by saying this random stuff starting TQ ..but i cant be VAT registered') VAT numbers are pure numerical. |
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Currency =/= Legal tender and legal tender obviously doesn't mean what you think it does.
to help explain death and taxes meaning it might be worth hitting up the books again money, the monetary system, e-money are all about FIAT (legal tender) you know the amounts that have a $ £ symbol linked to it. currency is ANYTHING used in whole or as part of exchange where by more then 2 parties agree on the value. eg if i invented a rabbit credit and only me and another person ever done one trade using it. then it is just a bartered exchance. if a few people all used rabbit credits and they had a set understading of its value. that is then a currency. currency can be vodka, facebook credits, airmiles, sexual favours (in some countries) food, mobile phones the list is endless. currency is just a grouping term of all the things that can be used as a means of exchange for goods and services. it is not legal tender itself. although MONEY is within the group known as currency as its used as a means of trade. it does not mean that all currency's are automatically legal tender because they act like money does. 'foreign currency' is a laymans term for not native to this country and when used in context of other countries legal tender then it should be used on the context that using the word currency is just a laymans lazy way of not listing every countries FIAT MONEY. and as for renaming the bitcoin to resemble gold. that is flawed too. gold is a commodity. and a commodity is a raw material used to produce other products (jewellery, electronics) much like oil makes car fuel, plastics. wheat makes flour and other things bitcoin is not a commodity. the only resemblance to gold is the store of value and the term "mining". which leads on that people have stupidly linked btcoin to gold purely from the term "mining". where it would for the bases of use, purpose and comparisons "miners" should be called "vectoring" (due to use of elliptic curve) or something that actually corresponds to solving the digitial puzzle that some people call it. then the snowball effect would be a better understanding that bitcoin is not something you use to design spaceships, motherboards or to add ingredients to, to make a meal(commodity). but its something you hold and own (an asset) much like valuable art a car. its a end product with clear ownership. and this thought has came from 3 different accountants i spoke to.. and not just a brain fart opinion of just me. and as for going to court. you can go into court with the mindset that you want the return of property. its not limited to the financial valuation of the product. the only time it becomes a financial thing is if the possession has changed hands again and it is impossible to return it to the rightful owner. then a financial compensation would be the only last resort. but i will say that is UK courts. so speak to a solicitor/lawyer before filing a court action for full and proper guideance |
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i think someone has only read the first page of a SEC/FSA hand book and pooped their pants thinking the world will cave in because they see E-Money being regulated.
money and E-money. think of them as government trademarks for the description of FIAT EG uses the symbols £ $
separately currency can be any form of exchangable item. although money is in the category of currency, the term 'currency' just means group of items used for trading. it is not a government owned/monitored/regulated term.
people in africa trade bags of food, milk, goats, mobile phones. that is their currency. and the government doesnt do anything about it.
facebook trade credits, personal information and labour time. that is their currency and because its online its an E-Currency/virtual currency.
both those terms are not to be confused with money or E-Money.
E-Money or money is the term used for the trading 'device'(paper/computer/coin) that uses that countries FIAT symbology. EG £ $
E-Gold could have made coins till the cows came home no issues if they never used government symbols. but as soon as the government realised there was a $ symbol on it and the guy was trying to deceive people into thinking it was dollar coins.. the government cracked the whip. under counterfeit charges. so the lesson to be learnt is, dont use government symbols or make it appear as government issued.
bitcoin is not money or E-Money.
but bitcoin is though a currency, just like when you were kids swapping pokemon cards for a packet of crisps or in prison swapping cigarettes with 'bubba' so he doesn't invade your rectum.
so to end that ill repeat one more time bitcoin is not a 'money' or 'e-money' which is government regulated. but bitcoin is a currency.
now to clear up the word commodity. a commodity is usually a raw material traded or used to then make different end products/purposes.
shares are not commodities. but you can own shares of a commodity.
a share is a item you own (financial asset)
a bitcoin is something you own (personal asset)
different assets have their own tax laws.
not everything on the planet is taxed by sales tax/VAT.
UK vat is basically items that are sold by VAT registered retailers that have been mass produced(1) and made up of multiple parts(2) for consumers, with some exceptions to that rule.
1.thats why someone selling a single original antique painting doesnt charge vat but someone selling thousands of copies of the same painting does charge VAT
2.thats why some fresh veg is VAT free where as a ready meal (microwave ready prepared dinners) is not vat free even though its been made up of purely the ingredients that were vat free.
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(uk) I take it a UK exchange wouldn't be "buying or selling" btc but bringing together both buyers and sellers.
If the exchange collects customers funds used to buy btc how does the exchange account for that money they receive, isn't it automatically viewed as "turnover" ?
The Question basically is what is vat applied to (when over the £77,000 threshold) as either an automated exchange or a manual buyer, seller of Bitcoin?
As I see it anyone buying and selling Bitcoin here in the uk needs to remain under the vat threshold, clearly Bitcoin+vat won't work. Does an exchange function so that only the fee is subject to vat?.
Hmrc have no policy regarding Bitcoin as a "currency" only at that point is it possible to trade without vat, operating more like a currency exchange or money service.
VAT is only applicable to certain items. bitcoin isnt one of them. so you dont have to worry about selling 1 or a million of them in regards to VAT,, just be careful keeping records for corporation tax/income tax. |
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all im saying is that the spot price should be based on mining costs plus a fair value ontop for profit based on value(supply and demand)
value is different then speculation/manipulation. i agree that everyone should make profit in different ways. but a sudden 300% spike in price (out of the blue) where there's no correlation to why it increased. is a bubble that always bursts.
that is not a valued price, that is pure manipulation/speculation.
so if you see a spike in price on the charts and there is no reason you can think of to explain it rationally. from the mindset of someone that is not the profiteer. then you know its a speculated spike for short term profit.
Can you extend this argument to cover the value of bitcoin after the last block has been mined? Should Bitcoin's value at that time be based solely on transaction fees? I think there will be a strong correlation between mining costs and bitcoin value in the early years, but I expect this to decrease over time -- with mining profitability eventually falling to the point where it is unprofitable for all but a few. This is speculation on my part, but it is based on modeling Bitcoin's value with several unrelated components and then extrapolating and comparing them with one another. its good to see that some people like yourself rely on indicators to base the price. so keep it up. unlike others that use high school level terms such as 'supply and demand' (only 2 indicators) and have never put anything into a chart. to understand what causes supply and what causes demand to have more then just 2 indicators. they don't look below the surface. i have several indicators. the graph on the first page of this thread was a very very simplified version to point out one point. looking at the result of reaching the 21 millionth coin... i was going to write a long reply to your answer. but to answer your question ill just leave you with this question imagine a country that stopped printing money.. what would happen eventually. |
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this is where it should be, where the price relates to actual mining costs and not speculation.
So you're saying that Bitcoin's value should only be related to actual mining costs and not the value it brings to the market as a medium of exchange unlike anything else currently available? all im saying is that the spot price should be based on mining costs plus a fair value ontop for profit based on value(supply and demand) value is different then speculation/manipulation. i agree that everyone should make profit in different ways. but a sudden 300% spike in price (out of the blue) where there's no correlation to why it increased. is a bubble that always bursts. that is not a valued price, that is pure manipulation/speculation. so if you see a spike in price on the charts and there is no reason you can think of to explain it rationally. from the mindset of someone that is not the profiteer. then you know its a speculated spike for short term profit. |
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...
C) this is where people started to shift their perceptions away from what they could spend it on, but more to do with how much it cost to make. and so the remaining miners held the price at a certain level and slowly the price began to rise again
D) even through the next media blitz of bad press (the pirate saga) miners still held strong and helped the price to not collapse but to be just a little blip.
...
Price causes difficulty, not the other way around. Regardless of whether miners sell or hang on to their coins, it's equivalent to them simply buying the coins into existence "at cost". The feedback loop is such that basically: P causes C + W where: P = whatever the price happens to be, because of Demand which has nothing to do with miners. C = mining cost. W = minimum wage they're willing to tolerate in order to keep mining. double face palm. ELEVATED/ volitile,/ fluctuating prices are due to supply and demand.. BUT LOOK DEEPER. there is a baseline of any raw material that is based on production costs first(time + machinary + electric) as you say the minimum wage. the volitility is small percentage on top. the profit/speculation go to a gold mine.. they dont say "well gold is $1600 so ill sell it to you at $800 so that you can take it abroad and selling to someone else for $1350 for them to then sell it to the mass markets for spot" spot is created from the base line costs and then adding profit/speculation ontop... many gold barons who dont actually mine but go to the source try to use many reasons/excuses to try pushing down their purchase price to maximise their profits by using excuses like "pffft im not paying that, havnt u seen the spot price drop 30% i want 30% cheaper or im leaving". and that is what your tryng to say...that is the attitude of a middleman. that has no experience of manufacturing. that's manipulation.. its also been found how supermarkets are manipulating the price of milk by trying to push farmers to accept less then cost price by saying "consumer prices have changed blah blah blah" but that is just middleman manipulation for profit. nothing to do with the underlying value. and the great think about milk is that it only has a week's shelf life so when farmers publicised how they were being manipulated, people slowed down the amount of milk they bought causing retailers to rethink their strategies. (its all happening in the UK for the last few years). if the middle men manpulate the price down then miners will give up which cascades into a lack of supply which then makes the price rise. and thats what middle men want. profit from both sides. using the milk scenario again retailers at first didnt care about farmers or consumers they wanted to buy a pint of milk for 14p and sell it fr 90p. but both the consumers and farmers revolted. farmers retired causing milk supplies to dry up and consumers refused to pay 90p for a single pint and £2 for 4 pints now farmers get upto 25p and retailers sell 4 pints for £1.20 and everyone seems happy. now thats stable non manipulated pricing. and the farming industry is starting to grow again. retailers make a bit more profit selling single pints (50p) as its considered acceptable due to packaging /delivery costs increase. another thing "Recommended retail prices" was invented to stop these middle men retailers from making excessive profits by pushing the price they paid to manufacturers down and pricetagging it to consumers at what they pleased. it gave manufacturers more powers to say if we sell if to you for X you have to sell it for Y giving the manufacturers the powers of pricing based mainly on costs+ small % of profit. the ultimate fair and more stable price begins with the miners/manufacturers. NOT the other way around!! so if you want to know how to base things that are NOT manipulated then base it on the cost of production + reasonable percentage ontop of profit.. if the profit margin gets too high where costs have not increased then it is pure speculation/manipulation and eventually the bubble will burst where consumers (end purchasers) will not continue to buy it. causing a price drop. its like commodity prices for wheat, oil, etc they are based on producton costs and vary depending on how much a middle man can manipulate the producers down to. but there is always a set bottom limit where producers will just say no... that is the baseline of pricing.. everything above it is profit/speculation/manipulation. so as long as you see the production costs (mining difficulty(imagining electric prices never changed)) and you seen the retail prices move up on par (obviously at a higher level) then it is fair and stable.. sudden spikes in price that cannot be linked to production costs are where its very easiy to see a manipulation/speculation occuring |
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Yes, this is part of the idea also. I almost was thinking of "credits". I had an idea similar to this before. Let me brainstorm more what you put there on there thread.... This idea was more so to allow people who are selling their bitcoins to place x amount into a credit card/voucher that they would receive instantly via email. Then they can spend it ( when the time is right) to buy bitcoins whenever they so choose via a credit card at anytime. This helps people get Bitcoins (again) quicker. Sort of a pre-paid card dedicated to spending on Bitcoins at a later date. aswell as putting bitcoins into fiat debit card to spend on groceries. where people can top up the debit card at local shops and then request that any balance in the card not spent on groceries could be put back into bitcoin. thus avoiding many gateways upto 6% charges and being a more instant conversion. |
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i read the title so here is my brain fart and 2cents to add  KEY: orange line is the mining hashrate blue line is the price bitcoin came into existance in january 2009 and for 1 year 9 months virtually nothing happened to it........ then people started seeing value in it (also thats when charting data began as services started being made to remember the important data) A) people started seeing value in it, even when mining was lower the price would rise and fall mainly due to what people would use the coins for and what they deemed it worth (speculation) B) the speculated price kept rising without links to how much it cost to make the coins. But more linked to peoples dreams and speculation which brang along with it, as a secondary item more people wanting to mine the coins so they can get in on it... But then due to some bad press/propaganda starting about hacking thefts the price nose dived and along with it 30% of miners decided its no longer for them. C) this is where people started to shift their perceptions away from what they could spend it on, but more to do with how much it cost to make. and so the remaining miners held the price at a certain level and slowly the price began to rise again D) even through the next media blitz of bad press (the pirate saga) miners still held strong and helped the price to not collapse but to be just a little blip. straight after point D and into point E is what is known as the FPGA/ASIC drama mining stayed strong and with the block halving(E) it did drop a little, but no where near 50%. now you know the history of the last 4 years.. now for the present.. what is great is just like rare minerals, EG diamonds, gold, silver platinum.. if you look deep enough the fundamental pricing of these minerals is based on how expensive it is to make. and right now i am glad to see that as the difficulty is increasing. so is the price. right now today. the network hashrate jumped upto 35Thash where the price then responded with about a $31 price tag. and then when the network hashrate went down to about 32Thash the price then followed. this is where it should be, where the price relates to actual mining costs and not speculation. so if you see a major spike in the price but no network hashing spike. then you know that it is probably speculation and risky. over the next few months more batch's of Avalons will be released. each unit yields 66Ghash which with February's batch of 300 still only just arriving through peoples doors is 19.8Thash (ontop of January's average of 23Thash) bringing a "POSSIBLE" 42.8Thash by march 5th. and the March Batch 2, consisting of 600 units (39.6Thash) will bring the network hashrate to a "POSSIBLE" 82.4Thash total. i say possible due to the fact that some GPU miners may give up, some ASIC miners may be delayed. final thought: if the price is based on mining costs, then bitcoin will remain safe and easily calculatable value. where by any other speculations/manipulation will only last as long as the people involved keep trying to push it. which could be just minutes for a financial pumper dumper. and weeks for media/government involvement. now ill leave you to speculate......  |
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gonna try ripple out, need some xrp rJc889SGH2CAc69hV8ybHo79RRTuYBTPP7 |
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rJc889SGH2CAc69hV8ybHo79RRTuYBTPP7
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taking the idea of the governments(of many countries) solar panel grants where people agree to have solar panels installed in exchange for free electric and the possible extra cash rebate due to excess production.. but doing it Avalon ASIC style. imagine your most favourite grandma, or a neighbour that has been through a bit of hard luck, where both would never dare to ask for a free hand out which they feel that they have not earned or has cost others, their hard work and sweat to earn. and heres the idea.. Putting an ASIC in their house and you give them a rebate in return to cover the costs and giving them a bit of income ontop as a thank you. now some maths 4 based on todays figures of difficulty 1, BTC price 2 and known Avalon outputs on pools 3currently Avalon ASICS are yielding 9.12BTC a day(63.84BTC/week). which is $270.86 PER DAY!($1896/week) which may go down to 5BTC a day (new monthly batch) and down each month theirafter as new batches are released. hopefully the bitcoin value will increase as the costs of production continue to rise to counter the drop in daily yields. An Avalon ASIC costs 50.5BTC (under 5 days income and its paid off) based on a high $0.21c/kwh electricity it will cost $3.12 a day($21.84/week) to run the unit so lets say you give rebates of atleast $44 a week minimum for 12 months. starting maybe alot higher at first due to the income still being relatively high. (EG starting at $250 a week, decreasing as difficulty/BTC value decreases(hoping it doesn't)) i know that many people will reply with "why don't you just keep all the units and get 100% profit yourself" to which i refer to the title and first couple paragraphs of this idea.... a charity but now you have got the crux of the idea...... now discuss.......... positive media coverage it will bring. better life for people around you. growth of a new charity/business as demand expands. aiding the network security by having more miners per population to reduce chances of 51% attacks any other issues/positives that can come from this. appendix 1http://blockchain.info/stats2$29.70 http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price39.12BTC(payments over 24hours) http://hhtt.1209k.com/user-details.php?user=1MngEke9hbW2RYGnw27r5QgS1TXLC68TV64http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ |
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the idea of XRP as a postage stamp attached to an envelope is a great one.
whereby the XRP only holds the information about the details of other currencies being moved around and ripple gets paid by you buying a number of transactions. (stamped envelopes)
its like sending cash in the mail, you can put a bitcoin paper wallet into an envelope, a £10 note, $10 note. the XRP just ensures it travels safely around the worlds postal network (XRP blockchain).
ripple is giving away millions of free stamps so that everyone can start sending transactions to each other for free, XRP are not a currency themselves in the way that bitcoins are.
there is however an opportunity that if ripple decides to increase their 'fee' then everyone holding hoards of empty stamped envelops can sell them for a fraction of the ripple asking price, privately. where by they would make a small profit, due to the fact that they were initially given the envelopes for free.
the XRP is not a 'pre-mine' it is not a method to make ripple millionaires before they have even opened. it simply the same scenario as the postal service pre-printing stamps and giving out half its supply and holding onto the other half to cope with demand while allowing them freedom to print more at their leisure.
so those spouting out FUD please read the details of ripple, or atleast try beta testing how it works. and have some half knowledge about what ripple actually is/will be used for before shouting out bitcoin Armageddon stories.
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lol thats where you are clinging at straws. saying that assets might be chattels .. emphasis on might be and then using dictionary definitions of chattels to try and make it seem like all assets HAVE TO BE tangible. the important thing is that assets are things that you own. the words "such as" are just examples, not a set in stone list. this is why i, in the first post defined that its not a share, its not a ....(well you read it.) assets are property owned by you, objects, possessions and even intellectual property(graphic design, programming code, names, trademarks etc). HMRC, and solicitors will NEVER make it a finite list set in stone of what constitutes a personal possession. so the question to leave you with is to define intellectual property, which in many cases is not tangible. alot of people want to call bitcoin a commodity due to gold being a commodity, and that when asked the deeper question why is bitcoin like gold, their reply is "because you mine it." which is just a silly reason. what if the mining program, due to use of computers and elliptic curves was called 'vectoring' much like art work/graphics design/games developers uses vectors. Art/graphic design material is not a commodity, but is an intellectual or tangible property. J-lo (jenifer lopez's) buttocks are not stated on any tax related material as being an asset, nor on any legal documents about tax. yet they clearly are her assets. owned by her and have major value. hence why she has a million dollar insurance on them. a surgeons hands are his assets. athletes/ sports peoples ligaments are assets. as i said before HMRC do not limit assets to just these items on the page. it is just used as an example. and as for the scenario for a bank loan that dadj mentioned there are 2 things to note 1. if i walked into a bank and got asked what assets i had and i said i only have 2 metal coins in my pocket. at first the banks would think im crazy. but after explaining the coins are the rarest coins in existance and worth X amount, they would change their minds. so its all about explaining it. much like carrots and you would be surprised to find alot of corporate banks know what bitcoins are now. a few people in the UK have hinted to banks about digital currency and the banks themselves have said "your talking about bitcoin" and then the bank was ok with continuing with that days transaction. 2. if you had £200,000 worth or bitcoin in storage and earning £10k a month why would you take out a loan. ud be tied into a loan for 10 years where every single monthly bitcoin earning would go into loan repayments.. id put that money into a company EG buying T-shirts for £2 and selling them for £5 and reaping a 100% profit after costs. to net you £20k a month. but getting back on topic. all assets have CGT possibilities. your car can be CGT'd so not paying capital gains tax on a cheap car is not avoidance. its just purely the fact that your car only cost £4k to not be liable for it. its not avoidance. its playing by the rules and knowing what your entitled to. just remember to put any profits which you then spend on your lifestyle as income and pay tax on your income and that's the end of my brain fart... if you are still at all unsure, then go see an accountant. if you are 100% satisfied that i am on the right path, due to the discussions i have had with accounts then please still go see your accountant. never take anyone that you cant slap with a wet fish, advice at face value. |
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sometimes fresh coins take longer as they don't have previous transactions prior to them to help validate its a valid coin.
receiving coins that have been in circulation a while are alot alot faster (at the 2.5min timescale).
many have noticed the same delay with fresh minted bitcoins too.
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I got my 1.5 LTC. Thanks!
I dabbled within LTC mining over the past couple of days. I'm kinda sad my CPU doesn't give me more than like 30 kh/s. And my 6950 only gets like 6 kh/s.
Something is not set right with your 6950, what are you using? I am getting 8kh/s with a built in 6250, which also seem slow now that I think about it.. I got my issue figured out. Using flags is a requirement (worksize, aggression, etc). I don't know what my new average is because it seems to fluctuate wildly, but I am getting 300-400+ Kh/s now. My new issue im trying to figure out - How come the payout from my pool is taking over 24 hours? I thought since LTC blocks are every 2.5 minutes the transactions would be faster? imagine all pools as computers owned by other people. some people have it set to auto pay out at certain thresholds, some have it as a daily payout and some have it as a manual payment you request whenever you like. the same thing goes for bitcoin pools. it all depends on the settings/features the pool owner offers. some pools are better/worse then others. so find the best one that suits your needs |
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