Isn't the whole point of using decentralized computing power to pool resources for the common good? To defend against the powerful by uniting the rest? To secure transaction processing by building a network of individuals?
The point of crypto-currency is to defend. That's how it is built. That's how it is succeeding. Growth, community building, and dedication are the ways to defend.
There are no magical answers, that's why all coins have the same one. The community is stronger than the attacker. That is the only defence P2P has and the reason for its existence.
That is good for me  Now, can you tell me what that sudden growth of network hashrate mean? I mean, it seems to me, for last 3 day or so, that every time, before difficulty adjusment, there is a 100%+ grow in network hashrate (from ~800 to ~1600 Mh/s) , then after hour or so, it drops back where it was before. It seems to me like someone wants to keep difficulty higher. But it is 800Mh/s of hashrate, who has that?! But it does not seems to be sudden interest of miners and current profitability of DGC. I am starting to be paranoid  multipool.in are responsible for most of that. Read the ARG thread if you want to know more about the problem. The pool does high hash attacks against low net hash alt coins locking them into high difficulty for days at a time. He says he is testing the coins, doing them a favor. All he is doing is preventing the users of his pool getting the maximum average profit from those coins. Whilst a coin is high diff for a couple of days, his pool users are getting zero blocks from that coin! They are missing out on thousands of blocks, forcing the pool to hop to a lower average profitability coin that has a higher more robust net hash. DGC is a moderate hash coin that is still strongly effected by this pool hop. |
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One of my big concerns with the Jupiter is the power consumption. 1000 watts constant usage is okay if your only running one machine, but if you start running 5 or 6 of them then your going to have to look at putting them on different electrical circuits. I'm really hoping that the power requirements are significantly lower than what they've quoted so far.
/cet
It's the lowest out there, one device is not going to overload your household power circuit, but of course adding multiple of anything eventually will, if it's an issue you cant deal with, then don't be so greedy, order what you can manage, or simply find another hobby. There is also the opportunity to pay someone who knows what they are doing to host the miners for you as mentioned on the KNCminer website. the safest option would be call an electrician to install a larger dedicated circuit breaker just for the miners. just like you would when installing a large air-conditioner. in Australia we have 240v 16 Amp circuits as standard wall outlet. I wouldn't put more than 3 on one circuit and probably safer to not go over 2 if other appliances use the same circuit, especially heaters/air-cons basically high wattage appliances. In USA it would be different, but if your outlets are rated at 120v 20 Amp circuits, then 2 Jupiters would be max per circuit and no high wattage appliances on same circuit. The trouble is that the miners are not certified, as they don't need to be when they are shipped without a power supply, but the second you put a power supply in it, the miner does need to be certified! There goes your insurance claim if something goes wrong. I don't think people who are uncomfortable with managing electrical safely should be hosting these devices. Without insurance cover, you need to know what you are doing. |
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One of my big concerns with the Jupiter is the power consumption. 1000 watts constant usage is okay if your only running one machine, but if you start running 5 or 6 of them then your going to have to look at putting them on different electrical circuits. I'm really hoping that the power requirements are significantly lower than what they've quoted so far.
/cet
It's the lowest out there, one device is not going to overload your household power circuit, but of course adding multiple of anything eventually will, if it's an issue you cant deal with, then don't be so greedy, order what you can manage, or simply find another hobby. There is also the opportunity to pay someone who knows what they are doing to host the miners for you as mentioned on the KNCminer website. |
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How is this different from WDC?
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Not much to weigh in here that hasn't already been said. I do agree ARG hasn't added anything technical to the crypto-currency realm, however, i do believe it has its place due to these points mainly.
I actually think ARG brings a lot to the table, go back and read the specs on the first page again. 32sec block rate - A nice balance.250 block diff re-target - Works out to about 2 hours when not deliberately high diff attacked! Could be a bit lower.64 million total ARG. Then increased by 1.1% annually, the rate of human population growth - brilliant idea!Block reward random from 1-5 - an interesting different approach, about 180coins per hour, BTC is 150.Mined blocks mature after 30 confirms - I like that, sick of waiting for 120+-Maximum block size increased to 10mb - future proofing-Maximum signature operations per block maximum increased to 100k - future proofing.Overall I think ARG has pretty much the best specs out there for a PoW coin, but of course you need more than just good specs to make a coin successful. |
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if you dont have the money to risk, then dont risk it.
why is this so hard? i make good money and im willing to risk a portion of it....
ok, i 'll not starve to death if it turns in a bad investment but i don't have disposable money to waste either everybody tries to find out the best trustable seller. maybe some don't need to think a lot about it, lucky ppl  lol no i understand, but this whole bitcoin thing is based on risk so it gets annoying when people bitch and complain all day about this stuff. just go to work then! lol It's not risk it's greed, there is this mindset, that if you don't get in early you wont make as much profit, that makes people borrow and pay interest for months and months for an order that is not delivered. Crazy logic, as the only think that makes the mining difficulty rise so quickly is greedy people that want to get in first, it's self perpetuating. That's no way to run a long term investment, but I guess people wouldn't be interested in mining bitcoins if they actually knew how to invest |
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Another utter troll/smear thread. If the OP actually took the time to research, he would have known that one of the options when you purchase a BFL MiniRig is to have it hosted by a local Kansas data center run by a company called J. Morgan and Associates. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:MiniRig+SC+and+Single+SC+HostingWhat's worse than the OP, are the people that actually get sucked in by this kind of smear thread. Anyone that bids $100k for a MiniRig has got rocks in their heads, and obviously doesn't need a mining rig, they could spend the $100k on BTC and be better off. |
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Let's face it, until KNC provides some die shots followed in relative short fashion by a hashing video there will be a lot of teeth gnashing and second guessing regarding their design choices...
This. I can't believe that people invested their money in KNC and expect an optimistic delivery date without seeing some more transparency ( fab documention/order dates etc.). Yes it's important to have an ASIC if you want to currently mine, but I feel too many people are throwing their cash around. I would love to order a KNCminer, but I am waiting until I see working proof from end users who have received their units, just like I did with BFL. Until actual real world test results come in, you can't plan your rig effectively. |
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It's not big talk, and it resulted from actual testing done on multiple pools.
I would like to see what multipool's orphan block/total block ratio is as well.
OP implies that you won't even get stale shares. That is technically impossible.. He did say in perfect conditions. Wild difficulty swings aren't in those conditions. The difficulty is up to 1.279 after being raped by multipool.in yet again. Network hashrate: 18.72 MH/s when multipool attacked last it added over 400MH/s for 20min, which represented roughly 95% of the Network hashrate at the time. I consider anything over 51% an attack on the coin and it needs to be looked into. I expect it will be days before the difficulty falls again at the current block rate unless we can get some more hash power, or pump the price up to make it top the profitability charts. So all the theory on orphans is a moot point with nobody wanting to mine the coin! A coin that is not mined is not viable. How to stop or prevent this kind of attacks?! Most pool owners know when their pool is harming the network hash rate and do something about it, so it's seldom been a problem. The obvious solution is some of the DGC miners moving their rigs on to ARG until it gets better known. I have done this, but my rig is tiny. |
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Just a little bit of info regarding KnC They contact ckolivas and myself at the end of May regarding cgminer and related information. They then stated they'd be sending (in July) mock up devices (with an internal RPi) for us to work with on cgminer, then in September the real (faster) devices to tune cgminer to. I have, however, heard nothing since, but no doubt expect to hear something soon. I'll keep everyone posted if anything happens I've been waiting 5 days for a reply (to an email I sent Marcus and Sam) from KnC about their status ... still no response ... Could it be that they do not want to answer you, until they have a exactade shipping date. To not lie. But next Tuesday not have answer would be a bit worrying. I do not want you to think I'm a Fanboy. I acknowledge the work done by ckolivas and you. Could be. But I really just asked for a status update coz we hadn't heard from them since the end of May. They were also the ones who contacted us originally, not the other way around. Got a reply 10 minutes ago. Things are moving forward. It seems KnC is indeed rather hectic at the moment, as one would expect, but still within their recent time frame update. They have published at least two status updates since May, so I don't know what you are going on about there. Try reading the news on their site: https://www.kncminer.com/news |
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It's not big talk, and it resulted from actual testing done on multiple pools.
I would like to see what multipool's orphan block/total block ratio is as well.
OP implies that you won't even get stale shares. That is technically impossible.. He did say in perfect conditions. Wild difficulty swings aren't in those conditions. The difficulty is up to 1.279 after being raped by multipool.in yet again. Network hashrate: 18.72 MH/s when multipool attacked last it added over 400MH/s for 20min, which represented roughly 95% of the Network hashrate at the time. I consider anything over 51% an attack on the coin and it needs to be looked into. I expect it will be days before the difficulty falls again at the current block rate unless we can get some more hash power, or pump the price up to make it top the profitability charts. So all the theory on orphans is a moot point with nobody wanting to mine the coin! A coin that is not mined is not viable. |
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I ordered a KnC Jupiter a while back. One thing I've been thinking abut recently: Are these miners likely to be safe to leave unattended? I mean....I do need to leave the house once in a while. I wouldn't want to come back from shopping to find my house has burnt down. Unattendance recommendations?
If they are certified they will be. If not, you takes your chances. These kind of products are not pop up toasters, they are intended for people with a bit more hardware knowledge than the average consumer. I would suggest that no miner I have seen is consumer friendly, not even a GPU board, had many of those go up in smoke mining. |
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With an expected ROI of something like 20-30 days, I'd be more than happy to mine profitably for four months only to trade up to a new gen device. That would still be a profit overall, even after paying for the new device, plus you still have the old one hashing all you like for another 8 months viably at least.
If you don't trade up as tech advances, you eventually get left behind anyway and will be forced to stop mining. Some will be happy with that, others, not so.
I think what is confusing people on the ROI, is that we are suddenly dealing with start-ups that have no money in the ASIC world. We have been use to doing a rough calculation, going down the shop and buying the latest GPU, and starting mining. But now it's all changed, because the ASIC companies have no money, they have to go into this pre-order caper and accumulate funds to pay for the fabrication. That introduce the many month delays (in the case of BFL over a year) in the ROI calculations. This is a concept people can't get their heads around. Hopefully the ASIC companies will eventually work out better ways of funding their next generation products, like the GPU companies do, and announce product when it's ready to ship. |
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Arg is shooting up in value now. Not far off dgc. The both of them continue to trade well and are leading the way on Cryptsy. Looking forward to the new services for them both as well. It's a good thing the value on Cryptry is going up, because the high difficulty has been killing the profitability all day, and keeping miners away. The last hour has been great. |
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s.
I don't see your point about electricity being wasted. The power companies would produce as much energy as market requires. Mining coins doesn't exhaust supply of electricity - it is limitless - it is not a finite resource like oil. The only thing wasted is resources of the miners who are bad with math.
If I and a small handful of other miners have to spend 12 hours mining 250 blocks that should have taken only 2 hours, just to get the difficulty back down, that's a waste of my electricity, those 12 hours are seriously unprofitable for me. If we don't do it then the coin is dead, the difficulty will never come back down. People don't seem to get what's going on here, the ARG difficulty is high because of multipool.in, nobody else. Let me rephrase it a bit to exaggerate the point, ARG is under DDoS attack by multipool.in who are forcing the coin into a near permanent high difficulty state. Does that spell it out a bit clearer? Every now and then the other coins get a bad profitabilty score, because ARG is up a bit on Cryptsy, so the pool will switch back to ARG at high diff for a while and help chew through the 250 block but it doesn't lower the diff much unless it was already a fair way into the next 230 blocks. My advise would be not to include coins into the multipool rotation when it's obvious that multipool will have more than 51% of the network hash rate. |
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And this followup post: I imagine, in a good coin, difficulty should go lower simply when there is more demand for mining of that coin.
For instance, when a high number of transactions would demand higher hash power to process these transactions.
So lower difficulty should be an invitation to miners and multipool. Why would it be wrong to accept the invitation? Beats me.
Of course, if the coin is badly designed, the difficulty will go all over the place, oscillate, feedback-amplify, etc, and create havoc. But it is up to the designer of the coin software to think ahead about this and prevent it.
When ARG went to low difficulty a little while ago, there was hardly anyone mining it for 10min, then multipool bounced over to ARG and within 17min, mined 250 blocks that should have taken over 2 hrs to mine, then multipool bounced off to mine NVC leaving the small group of dedicated ARG miners to get the next 250 ARG blocks now at high difficulty, which looks like that will take around 12hrs to achieve, just so multipool can do a 17min rape again when the dedicated miners have used 12hrs of their electricity! I see no evidence of any other switching pool doing this to ARG, just multipool.in, I watch the sequence of events very carefully this time. The coin will never be successful if forced to spend 97% of each day at high difficulty because of the >51% burst from mutlipool every 12hours. This is a serious problem. |
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I imagine, in a good coin, difficulty should go lower simply when there is more demand for mining of that coin.
For instance, when a high number of transactions would demand higher hash power to process these transactions.
So lower difficulty should be an invitation to miners and multipool. Why would it be wrong to accept the invitation? Beats me.
Of course, if the coin is badly designed, the difficulty will go all over the place, oscillate, feedback-amplify, etc, and create havoc. But it is up to the designer of the coin software to think ahead about this and prevent it.
When ARG went to low difficulty a little while ago, there was hardly anyone mining it for 10min, then multipool bounced over to ARG and within 17min, mined 250 blocks that should have taken over 2 hrs to mine, then multipool bounced off to mine NVC leaving the small group of dedicated ARG miners to get the next 250 ARG blocks now at high difficulty, which looks like that will take around 12hrs to achieve, just so multipool can do a 17min rape again when the dedicated miners have used 12hrs of their electricity! I see no evidence of any other switching pool doing this to ARG, just multipool.in, I watch the sequence of events very carefully this time. The coin will never be successful if forced to spend 97% of each day at high difficulty because of the >51% burst from mutlipool every 12hours. You have to ask yourself why do some pool operators go out of their way to prevent their pool going over 50% of the network hash? They do things like stop registrations, increase the pool fees, whatever to try and keep it under control. |
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agreed with the above post. Ive been in the position of having all my coins invested into mincoin, then the flashminers came along, and pretty much killed it making me lose pretty much all i had due to the value taking a sky dive. You're pretty much killing coins on a daily basis, with not a care in the world of the effort it takes to get a coin out of that high diff mess
It's not healthy, I see it like refusing to slow down at school crossings arguing that the kids should learn to get out of the way faster, then having a dig at the parents. |
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This is a copy of a post I made in the multipoo.in thread: The concept of this pool sounds great, but since a good portion of the pool appears to not be using the auto feature, wouldn't the use of PPLNS cause miners to lose money since they are bouncing around from coin to coin? It seems like this would be much better implemented using PPS.
Let me give you an example of the bouncing effect. ARG network hash rate was a low 10kH/s, at block 54,501, so the difficulty dropped, as it does every 250 blocks, this time from 0.85 to 0.2 this made ARG jump up to just over 600% profitability, which made multipool.in hop and suddenly add over 320kH/s to the hash rate, an increase of 3,000% plus whatever other pool hoppers elsewhere did. Since the next 250 ARG blocks were found in minutes, the difficulty jumped back up to 0.85, multipool pool bounced again, leaving ARG with a network hash rate of around 17kH/s currently, and a block time of many minutes instead of the 32sec the coins difficulty target is designed for. This is not fair on the supporters of ARG. My suggestion is either let the miners keep some hashing power on ARG by opening up the direct port again, or take it out of the multipool rotation. multpooli.in represents >51% of the ARG nethash when the miners are pointed to it. Pool bouncing is hurting the coin. |
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