Martin Armstrong Discussion

[hdbuck]

I was talking about the majority, not about cherry picked intelligent and well integrated (a-religious! ) minorities of a community.

I have answered in detail on the same subject at bigtimespaghetti's in this comment. I think it may give your thoughts a better perspective as well. Fortunately, we don't need EVERYBODY to be a scientist...

yea we just need cheap labor, as if the wages and unemployment weren't ATH already..

c'mon this whole thing just stinks.

[macsga]

yea we just need cheap labor, as if the wages and unemployment weren't ATH already..
c'mon this whole thing just stinks.

Touché.  

If you want my thesis on the subject; I said that we don't NEED everyone to be a scientist, but personally, I'd feel more comfortable within a world of scientists. Advancing one's knowledge tends to expand his visualization of the Cosmos around him. It's just like somebody goes into the Plato's cave and lights up a Xenon lamp! Brightness flows everywhere; the chains of the unknown simply vanish in the light of knowledge...

That's why the current education system literally overkills our children with useless information instead of focusing on each one's favorite subject. You can't expect a child that likes to be an engineer to read and comprehend biology; nor vice versa for a biologist. Under these circumstances no one is able to fulfil his personal preferences and thus we produce uneducated people. Those schools are not education places; they're mind bending factories!

Same goes for the mass media; Huxley got it better than Orwell when he predicted a world filled with a shitload of information where no one could ever know which is the most important of all...

“In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenceless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them.”

George Orwell from Politics and the English Language

[smooth]

Martin Armstrong often stated about the inevitable crash of the Real Estate bubble. This thing was getting out of control back in the mid-2000s and it's getting even worse now.

Commercial property values in the US are now about 30% above the 2007 peak.

Residential is just starting to exceed the peaks in the best markets, still well below in worse markets. Even the latter is probably still overinflated by ZIRP.

[tabnloz]

yea we just need cheap labor, as if the wages and unemployment weren't ATH already..
c'mon this whole thing just stinks.

Same goes for the mass media; Huxley got it better than Orwell when he predicted a world filled with a shitload of information where no one could ever know which is the most important of all...

“In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenceless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them.”

George Orwell from Politics and the English Language

It always amazes me the degree to which both Huxley and Orwell have been proven correct, even though their versions of the future were very different. And I really love this quote; this clarity of thinking needs more airing. It's very Carlin-esque (although Carlin should be seen as Huxley-esque)

For one of Carlin's best speeches, see this one on politics and euphemisms. It's long but very worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0ZHsoHAlE

[macsga]

It always amazes me the degree to which both Huxley and Orwell have been proven correct, even though their versions of the future were very different. And I really love this quote; this clarity of thinking needs more airing. It's very Carlin-esque (although Carlin should be seen as Huxley-esque)

For one of Carlin's best speeches, see this one on politics and euphemisms. It's long but very worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0ZHsoHAlE

Ah, George Carlin. A Universe on his own for every stand up comedian out there. Let me tell you a dire secret; some of the most intelligent people I've ever met were sarcastic at themselves and very sympathising to people who could not understand them. George Carlin was just that. Never met him but watching his speeches, reviewing his old-time videos, he was very fond of ignorants. He knew that they were MORE than the smart people and he TRIED hard to make them smarter, with a smart way. By making them laugh.

You know, laughing is liberating. It can certainly grow a man better by releasing his tight bonds with his ignorant self. For ignorance is nothing but a brain chain that when you realize it's there, you can break it loose! I admire people who can make others laugh; often suggests that there's an indication of brilliance behind them.

PS: Thanks for this! Loved the speech, I had watched a similar one a couple of years ago by a stand up comedian suggesting the very same principles about the "wood" language of politics (well, it was in Greek, but believe me - politicians are the same everywhere). It's really an art of deceivement to speak for a couple of hours and actually say nothing at all...

[bigtimespaghetti]

Interesting discussion macsga, I remain sceptical but I do see the truth in some of your posts, perhaps my view is jaded by living amongst so called 'integrated' minorities in London, I don't even have much positive to say about the majority of the native caucasians either so I am not writing from a position of 'supremacy'. I won't go into my racial heritage, being largely western I still have some middle-eastern blood way back in my family tree. I have nothing against waves of immigration (I'm British, and in general we are very tolerant of other cultures). I do think that the level of immigration will seriously affect integration though- we are talking millions, not tens of thousands as has been the norm. I don't think there is is a comparative example anywhere in recent western history (perhaps post WW2?). There are already a lot of tensions in Western countries do to multicultural immigration policies, it just seems to me that this will exacerbate matters further.

[macsga]

Interesting discussion macsga, I remain sceptical but I do see the truth in some of your posts, perhaps my view is jaded by living amongst so called 'integrated' minorities in London, I don't even have much positive to say about the majority of the native caucasians either so I am not writing from a position of 'supremacy'. I won't go into my racial heritage, being largely western I still have some middle-eastern blood way back in my family tree. I have nothing against waves of immigration (I'm British, and in general we are very tolerant of other cultures). I do think that the level of immigration will seriously affect integration though- we are talking millions, not tens of thousands as has been the norm. I don't think there is is a comparative example anywhere in recent western history (perhaps post WW2?). There are already a lot of tensions in Western countries do to multicultural immigration policies, it just seems to me that this will exacerbate matters further.

Perspective. This is what we need to understand what's happening in the EU right now. Let's see some facts:

1. Was the Syria/Iraq crisis pre-organized?
2. Were the migrants forced to leave their houses and cities?
3. Were they "indulged" by the Europeans to "join" their "promised land"?

If you answered all the above affirmatively, then we may have a basis to start a conversation. Let's please talk a bit of thermodynamics here. Don't worry, it will be only epidermic and nothing you could not understand.

You're a top scientist and want to observe chaotic particles within a closed thermodynamic box. You take an isolated box, full of "free" molecules of smoke into the inherent air. Everything is thermodynamically "controlled" and (somewhat) "predictable". After some time, the entropy of such a chaotic environment is maximized. As a top scientist in thermodynamics you knew that, and it's being predicted since the very beginning.

When there's taxis, there's no chaos though, so, you cannot observe chaotic phenomena. Which means you should "maintain" the chaos. That will keep the experiment rolling, thus you will keep your job. Now let's broaden our minds.

What EU is all about? Could we perceived it like a "closed thermodynamic system"? The answer is "yes". It has all the characteristics. The first "boxes" where the countries that primarily formed the EU. First only a few were interconnected; then, more countries were added and more connections were established. After 29 countries and 29 years from the Schengen treaty, we had reached the maximum entropy of the enclosed "chaos". There was a form of taxis, so, the experiment lost its intrinsic cause!

We are now at the crucial point where we open the box to add more smoke molecules inside. More chaos - more experiment - more time... What's gonna be next? I'll leave it to your imagination. If this passes on without major public unrest, guess what comes next...

[hdbuck]

Interesting discussion macsga, I remain sceptical but I do see the truth in some of your posts, perhaps my view is jaded by living amongst so called 'integrated' minorities in London, I don't even have much positive to say about the majority of the native caucasians either so I am not writing from a position of 'supremacy'. I won't go into my racial heritage, being largely western I still have some middle-eastern blood way back in my family tree. I have nothing against waves of immigration (I'm British, and in general we are very tolerant of other cultures). I do think that the level of immigration will seriously affect integration though- we are talking millions, not tens of thousands as has been the norm. I don't think there is is a comparative example anywhere in recent western history (perhaps post WW2?). There are already a lot of tensions in Western countries do to multicultural immigration policies, it just seems to me that this will exacerbate matters further.

Perspective. This is what we need to understand what's happening in the EU right now. Let's see some facts:

1. Was the Syria/Iraq crisis pre-organized?
2. Were the migrants forced to leave their houses and cities?
3. Were they "indulged" by the Europeans to "join" their "promised land"?

If you answered all the above affirmatively, then we may have a basis to start a conversation. Let's please talk a bit of thermodynamics here. Don't worry, it will be only epidermic and nothing you could not understand.

You're a top scientist and want to observe chaotic particles within a closed thermodynamic box. You take an isolated box, full of "free" molecules of smoke into the inherent air. Everything is thermodynamically "controlled" and (somewhat) "predictable". After some time, the entropy of such a chaotic environment is maximized. As a top scientist in thermodynamics you knew that, and it's being predicted since the very beginning.

When there's taxis, there's no chaos though, so, you cannot observe chaotic phenomena. Which means you should "maintain" the chaos. That will keep the experiment rolling, thus you will keep your job. Now let's broaden our minds.

What EU is all about? Could we perceived it like a "closed thermodynamic system"? The answer is "yes". It has all the characteristics. The first "boxes" where the countries that primarily formed the EU. First only a few were interconnected; then, more countries were added and more connections were established. After 29 countries and 29 years from the Schengen treaty, we had reached the maximum entropy of the enclosed "chaos". There was a form of taxis, so, the experiment lost its intrinsic cause!

We are now at the crucial point where we open the box to add more smoke molecules inside. More chaos - more experiment - more time... What's gonna be next? I'll leave it to your imagination. If this passes on without major public unrest, guess what comes next...

1/ well-planned/supported/funded by tptb/deepstate/politicians since 911 (and probably before that)
2/ migrants are 75% males, hence cowards (another question would be: where are the women and children? surely the human trafficking market might be experiencing a great pump as we speak..)
3/ they are not indulged by the european population to come over.. its just the western mediatico-politic propaganda maneuvering for the new world order agenda.

expect riots, poverty, way of life lowered in Europe, more tax, financial crisis, bails in, more wars and more inequalities until it all blends into some despotic enslaving digital consumerist world, where brainwashed humans are just considered meatsacks/resources in their blind seek of selfish pleasures and comfort.

divide, (dilute the culture), and conquer.

in other word: DOOM.

[bigtimespaghetti]

Interesting discussion macsga, I remain sceptical but I do see the truth in some of your posts, perhaps my view is jaded by living amongst so called 'integrated' minorities in London, I don't even have much positive to say about the majority of the native caucasians either so I am not writing from a position of 'supremacy'. I won't go into my racial heritage, being largely western I still have some middle-eastern blood way back in my family tree. I have nothing against waves of immigration (I'm British, and in general we are very tolerant of other cultures). I do think that the level of immigration will seriously affect integration though- we are talking millions, not tens of thousands as has been the norm. I don't think there is is a comparative example anywhere in recent western history (perhaps post WW2?). There are already a lot of tensions in Western countries do to multicultural immigration policies, it just seems to me that this will exacerbate matters further.

Perspective. This is what we need to understand what's happening in the EU right now. Let's see some facts:

1. Was the Syria/Iraq crisis pre-organized?
2. Were the migrants forced to leave their houses and cities?
3. Were they "indulged" by the Europeans to "join" their "promised land"?

If you answered all the above affirmatively, then we may have a basis to start a conversation. Let's please talk a bit of thermodynamics here. Don't worry, it will be only epidermic and nothing you could not understand.

You're a top scientist and want to observe chaotic particles within a closed thermodynamic box. You take an isolated box, full of "free" molecules of smoke into the inherent air. Everything is thermodynamically "controlled" and (somewhat) "predictable". After some time, the entropy of such a chaotic environment is maximized. As a top scientist in thermodynamics you knew that, and it's being predicted since the very beginning.

When there's taxis, there's no chaos though, so, you cannot observe chaotic phenomena. Which means you should "maintain" the chaos. That will keep the experiment rolling, thus you will keep your job. Now let's broaden our minds.

What EU is all about? Could we perceived it like a "closed thermodynamic system"? The answer is "yes". It has all the characteristics. The first "boxes" where the countries that primarily formed the EU. First only a few were interconnected; then, more countries were added and more connections were established. After 29 countries and 29 years from the Schengen treaty, we had reached the maximum entropy of the enclosed "chaos". There was a form of taxis, so, the experiment lost its intrinsic cause!

We are now at the crucial point where we open the box to add more smoke molecules inside. More chaos - more experiment - more time... What's gonna be next? I'll leave it to your imagination. If this passes on without major public unrest, guess what comes next...

Thank you, you have given me something to meditate on. At a first reading I largely agree with your logic. Especially about the EU losing it's meaning and point of existence.

[jehst]

What if nothing major happens this fall?

[Jimmy Russell]

some major shit has already happened, just in case you've been living under a rock.   

[macsga]

some major shit has already happened, just in case you've been living under a rock.   

It seems it keeps happening:

Moody's downgrades France's government bond ratings to Aa2 from Aa1; outlook changed to stable from negative

London, 18 September 2015 -- Moody's Investors Service has today downgraded France's government bond ratings by one notch to Aa2 from Aa1. The outlook on the ratings is stable.

The key interrelated drivers of today's action are:

1. The continuing weakness in France's medium-term growth outlook, which Moody's expects will extend through the remainder of this decade; and

2. The challenges that low growth, coupled with institutional and political constraints, poses for the material reduction in the government's high debt burden over the remainder of this decade.

At the same time, France's credit worthiness remains extremely high, supporting an Aa2 rating. The country's significant strengths include: (i) a large, wealthy, and well-diversified economy with a high per capita income, (ii) favourable demographic trends as compared to other advanced economies, and (iii) a strong investor base and low financing costs. The rating and its stable outlook are also supported by the country's efforts to stabilise its public sector finances and initiatives recently deployed or announced to arrest the erosion of the economy's competitiveness.

In a related rating action, Moody's has today announced its decision to downgrade the ratings of the Société de Prise de Participation de l'État (SPPE) to Aa2 from Aa1. The SPPE's short-term rating was affirmed at P-1, including its euro-denominated commercial paper programme. The outlook on the ratings is stable. The debt instruments issued by the SPPE are backed by unconditional and irrevocable guarantees from the French government.

The local and foreign currency deposit ceilings and the local-currency and foreign-currency bond ceilings for France are unaffected by this rating action and remain at Aaa/P-1.

https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-downgrades-Frances-government-bond-ratings-to-Aa2-from-Aa1--PR_334715

[jehst]

Well there's been a lot of bad stuff happening since 2008, but MA is predicting a sovereign debt big bang that's going to make 2008 look like a walk in the park

[THX 1138]

...Perhaps you can tell me. How are UK people distinct from European mainlanders?...
...My sample size is too small. I don't know Europe well. You tell me...

As a belated addition to the discussion from early this week, I got a reply from "my socialist friend" (an Englishman who's lived in France for over 30 years now) to the above question; as an ex-Brit view from a French perspective at least.

"Seeing as there's a universalist trait in france that goes back to the universalist declarations of the french revolution i think idealism is deeper rooted here than in the uk. Freedom, equality and brotherhood as a slogan is seen on all public buildings and anything by the government (even rightwing). The idea of "The Republic" is very powerful although everyone has a different idea as to what it is and what its values are but there's definitely an all-inclusivenss in it and a deep commitment to equal treatment and laws for everyone (no particular exceptions for different communities or classes) and it is lay in its essence right to the core in that any religious signs in public buildings such as schools and townhalls etc are against the law. These universalist principles have meant that in the former colonies that are still part of france and that  send mps, there's not much will to revolt or independence seeing as the indigineous population was (and now is) theoretically treated as equals to the white colonizers now officials of the republic."

[bigtimespaghetti]

...Perhaps you can tell me. How are UK people distinct from European mainlanders?...
...My sample size is too small. I don't know Europe well. You tell me...

As a belated addition to the discussion from early this week, I got a reply from "my socialist friend" (an Englishman who's lived in France for over 30 years now) to the above question; as an ex-Brit view from a French perspective at least.

"Seeing as there's a universalist trait in france that goes back to the universalist declarations of the french revolution i think idealism is deeper rooted here than in the uk. Freedom, equality and brotherhood as a slogan is seen on all public buildings and anything by the government (even rightwing). The idea of "The Republic" is very powerful although everyone has a different idea as to what it is and what its values are but there's definitely an all-inclusivenss in it and a deep commitment to equal treatment and laws for everyone (no particular exceptions for different communities or classes) and it is lay in its essence right to the core in that any religious signs in public buildings such as schools and townhalls etc are against the law. These universalist principles have meant that in the former colonies that are still part of france and that  send mps, there's not much will to revolt or independence seeing as the indigineous population was (and now is) theoretically treated as equals to the white colonizers now officials of the republic."

I guess this explains their hostility to burkas. It surprises me that the French allowed no-go zones to develop in muslim communities throughout the country.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

[OROBTC]

...Perhaps you can tell me. How are UK people distinct from European mainlanders?...
...My sample size is too small. I don't know Europe well. You tell me...

As a belated addition to the discussion from early this week, I got a reply from "my socialist friend" (an Englishman who's lived in France for over 30 years now) to the above question; as an ex-Brit view from a French perspective at least.

"Seeing as there's a universalist trait in france that goes back to the universalist declarations of the french revolution i think idealism is deeper rooted here than in the uk. Freedom, equality and brotherhood as a slogan is seen on all public buildings and anything by the government (even rightwing). The idea of "The Republic" is very powerful although everyone has a different idea as to what it is and what its values are but there's definitely an all-inclusivenss in it and a deep commitment to equal treatment and laws for everyone (no particular exceptions for different communities or classes) and it is lay in its essence right to the core in that any religious signs in public buildings such as schools and townhalls etc are against the law. These universalist principles have meant that in the former colonies that are still part of france and that  send mps, there's not much will to revolt or independence seeing as the indigineous population was (and now is) theoretically treated as equals to the white colonizers now officials of the republic."

I guess this explains their hostility to burkas. It surprises me that the French allowed no-go zones to develop in muslim communities throughout the country.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

Very scary, bigtimespaghetti, thanks for posting the link.

I have read bits & pieces about the No-Go Zones in France (and there are apparently such places in much of Europe).  Of course that is a very bad thing, as tolerant Western values are being lost even as hateful values are growing.

My family and I have been to Paris a few times over the decades.  YES, the city is less comfortable for tourists (esp. the Metro), and we never even went to bad neighborhoods.

The whole Muslim immigration (and lack of integration) mess is an enormous problem for Europe.  And it is getting worse by the day.

[bigtimespaghetti]

...Perhaps you can tell me. How are UK people distinct from European mainlanders?...
...My sample size is too small. I don't know Europe well. You tell me...

As a belated addition to the discussion from early this week, I got a reply from "my socialist friend" (an Englishman who's lived in France for over 30 years now) to the above question; as an ex-Brit view from a French perspective at least.

"Seeing as there's a universalist trait in france that goes back to the universalist declarations of the french revolution i think idealism is deeper rooted here than in the uk. Freedom, equality and brotherhood as a slogan is seen on all public buildings and anything by the government (even rightwing). The idea of "The Republic" is very powerful although everyone has a different idea as to what it is and what its values are but there's definitely an all-inclusivenss in it and a deep commitment to equal treatment and laws for everyone (no particular exceptions for different communities or classes) and it is lay in its essence right to the core in that any religious signs in public buildings such as schools and townhalls etc are against the law. These universalist principles have meant that in the former colonies that are still part of france and that  send mps, there's not much will to revolt or independence seeing as the indigineous population was (and now is) theoretically treated as equals to the white colonizers now officials of the republic."

I guess this explains their hostility to burkas. It surprises me that the French allowed no-go zones to develop in muslim communities throughout the country.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

Very scary, bigtimespaghetti, thanks for posting the link.

I have read bits & pieces about the No-Go Zones in France (and there are apparently such places in much of Europe).  Of course that is a very bad thing, as tolerant Western values are being lost even as hateful values are growing.

My family and I have been to Paris a few times over the decades.  YES, the city is less comfortable for tourists (esp. the Metro), and we never even went to bad neighborhoods.

The whole Muslim immigration (and lack of integration) mess is an enormous problem for Europe.  And it is getting worse by the day.

Yeah, a lot of my liberal friends put it down to impoverished ghettos, which I can see their point. Perhaps it is no worse than that? I don't know.

On the subject of integration, a particularly unpleasant read:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

[THX 1138]

I guess this explains their hostility to burkas. It surprises me that the French allowed no-go zones to develop in muslim communities throughout the country.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5128/france-no-go-zones

Very scary, bigtimespaghetti, thanks for posting the link.

I have read bits & pieces about the No-Go Zones in France (and there are apparently such places in much of Europe).  Of course that is a very bad thing, as tolerant Western values are being lost even as hateful values are growing.

My family and I have been to Paris a few times over the decades.  YES, the city is less comfortable for tourists (esp. the Metro), and we never even went to bad neighborhoods.

The whole Muslim immigration (and lack of integration) mess is an enormous problem for Europe.  And it is getting worse by the day.

Yeah, a lot of my liberal friends put it down to impoverished ghettos, which I can see their point. Perhaps it is no worse than that? I don't know.

On the subject of integration, a particularly unpleasant read:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6527/migrants-rape-germany

Yes, thanks for posting both links, bigtimespaghetti. At present it seems impossible to know where the truth lies. I find myself agreeing with much of what Macsga says on the subject of the migrant/refugee situation (the distinction between the two seeming to be less and less discernable recently) on the previous page, as too with points you make in your reply:

...I have nothing against waves of immigration (I'm British, and in general we are very tolerant of other cultures). I do think that the level of immigration will seriously affect integration though- we are talking millions, not tens of thousands as has been the norm. I don't think there is is a comparative example anywhere in recent western history (perhaps post WW2?). There are already a lot of tensions in Western countries do to multicultural immigration policies, it just seems to me that this will exacerbate matters further...

I wonder if this is a divide and conquer strategy by TPTB regarding Europe, for instance, or simply a chaotic and unplanned result of previous US (and allies) military adventures in the numerous lands these people are now fleeing.

[bigtimespaghetti]

I wonder if this is a divide and conquer strategy by TPTB regarding Europe, for instance, or simply a chaotic and unplanned result of previous US (and allies) military adventures in the numerous lands these people are now fleeing.

I think it is being seized upon and leveraged in many respects in European governments. If you can plan something as chaotic as human diaspora is probably another matter. But, making blanket announcements to accept essentially any and all 'refugees' makes you think. These governments must have known what they were doing.

I would like to be clear that I have nothing against the idea of helping genuine refugees. The table seems skewed to enable economic migrants rather than those that genuinely need help now though.

On the conspiracy side...
What is also interesting is from Merkel in 2010 regarding the failure of multiculturalism:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

Now this is essentially being ignored. Does this mean that she is being controlled/blackmailed? It doesn't seem unlikely to me.

[OROBTC]

...

I read an article, a year or two ago, that said that at some point with continued immigration and misbehavior by Muslims, that eventually a hardliner will get elected on a platform of "Throw them out!".  The article specifically mentioned France as a country where the French are getting tired of all the crap.  If the Europeans continue to let them in in such a wholesale manner, European culture will be destroyed.

That notion of hardliners coming into power (of course) might be unsettling..., what other plans might they have?

To my eyes, Europe has a much more difficult problem than the USA does re BAD immigrants (even with savage gangbangers like MS-13).