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sidhujag
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September 19, 2015, 06:30:34 PM
 #781

What about dpos?

personally the more time that goes on the less viable dpos is shown to be, as recently seen by the bitshares delegate debacle

decent in theory, shit in practice

edit: dont get me wrong.. i'm just one person so if other people think its a good idea dont let me stop you.. just my two cents on dpos from what ive seen lately

What debacle?

the fact that its basically just a circlejerk... go read about the delegates that are no longer contributing to bitshares yet are still delegates.....
think of dpos as a rigged election... thats the best way to look at it.. here is some reading material to show you why what i say is the truth

Quote
DPoS is a plutocracy where people use (but, neither spend {“democracy”}, nor risk {“capitalism”}) their money to elect 100 senators, who sign blocks in a sequence and thus secure a nearly-P2P network.

As usual, we’re going to ignore all of the problems with this (that plutocracy implies same-wealthy-idiots-on-every-decision and inevitable decadence [unlike “rule of the experts” capitalism], that DPoS strongly concentrates wealth [and, therefore, protocol-control], that voters [even at the more-efficient corporate governance level] never seem to know or care about the issues they’re voting on, and that any conspiracy of 67 delegates can profitably double-spend without getting caught).

Instead, I’m just going to show that (again, for the Bitcoin issuance schedule) it is consequentially the same as Proof of Work.
In Theory

Theoretically, what is attempted is: [1] “Every non-attacker will know which 100 delegates are right for the job…”, [2] “…in a way that is not reliably subverted by human ‘work’…”, [3] “…and, since, attackers wouldn’t ever own >50% of the total money supply…”, [Conclusion] “…the network will always be safe.”

Obviously [2] is the deal-breaker, and [1] isn’t helping.

If you “get it” by now, I suggest you skip this section (to “The Coinbase-Rot Paradox”). However, because it happens to be a personal interest of mine, I’m going to write several paragraphs about how “voting” is only effective when it is cheap to cast an informed vote (which isn’t the case in DPoS).
Money and Politics

Votes are bought. Not directly (this would challenge the voter’s treasured self-delusions, and be a focal point for coordinated outrage), but indirectly through tax breaks, welfare, military action, subsidies, research grants, licenses, etc. Loudly, it is claimed that these all serve civic purposes (the reality is “some”), but the quieter subtext is: “a vote for Candidate X is good for your bottom line”. On top of that, there’s ad-spending and professional campaign management. Because election-competition is zero-sum, these activities cancel each other out and are net “wasted work” for society.

Is vote-buying a bad thing? Who really knows (considering the long-run coordination problems facing this species…)? For today’s post, who cares?
I’m not arguing that this is “good” or “bad”, I’m just arguing that it’s “true”.

Votes become easier to buy as the number of voters increases. Though it may seem innocuous to say “the more voters there are, the less each individual vote counts”, the statement is in fact a grave paradox. Eventually, the sheer quantity of voters guarantees that each individual voter is irrelevant – a balloon inflated to such a grand size, that the stretched plastic simply vanishes altogether. If 3 people vote, a single vote can swing a possible tie, but if 10,000,001 people vote, a tie probably won’t even occur (making each individual vote completely irrelevant). The voting process can be defeated entirely, by taking a small “critical mass of uninformed voters” and, to it, adding some self-fulfilling expectations of hopelessness.

If informed voting were cheap, these self-fulfilling expectations would be expensive to generate. Unfortunately, voting is not cheap, voting costs energy that most people won’t spend. This small detail means that any politician who can quietly use public resources to finance their bribes will always have an overwhelming advantage.
Wealth Isn’t Unequal Enough

What about the fact that DPoS votes with wealth instead of per capita? The improvement is insufficient: while wealth does distribute non-uniform (instead: lognormal or power law) a project aspiring to “world wide ledger” status will eventually have a very high quantity of people in each wealth-class; so many that casting an informed vote will still be (for each individual) a waste of time.

Voter apathy reliably strikes the more optimistic scenario of modern corporate governance. There, each share gets a vote, and disinterested parties can sell and abandon their need to vote altogether (impossible in DPoS). The ability of shareholders to elect the board of directors makes almost no difference; most shareholders don’t care enough to vote, and certainly not enough to learn-or-do-anything-about obviously corrupt phenomena such as executive pay, poison pills, empire building, golden parachutes, etc.

DPoS, like all voting, is not capitalistic. Capitalism is not about “one dollar, one vote”, it is instead “one dollar risked, one vote”. Capitalism requires the potential for gain as well as the risk of loss. With voting, gains for “good votes” are public, and equally and widely dispersed (no potential for private gain), and voting is free (no private risk of loss).

All of these concerns have been thought about in the early days of bts.. I suggest you post on that thread to be informed. You seem to have a good grasp on the concept do perhaps some enlightenment on either side may be beneficial to all involved.

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September 19, 2015, 09:34:18 PM
 #782

It may seems stupid but I don't care : what's is DPoS ?

asking questions like that is never stupid Tongue

dpos stands for delegated proof of stake... its a modified proof of stake where the people who 'stake' are 'elected' or 'chosen' in some fashion

think of it like paid officials that are elected in... and then think about why it doesnt work in practice (as is proven now) also read my last post Tongue

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September 19, 2015, 10:59:09 PM
 #783

It may seems stupid but I don't care : what's is DPoS ?

asking questions like that is never stupid Tongue

dpos stands for delegated proof of stake... its a modified proof of stake where the people who 'stake' are 'elected' or 'chosen' in some fashion

think of it like paid officials that are elected in... and then think about why it doesnt work in practice (as is proven now) also read my last post Tongue

You haven't refuted anything that a thousand other people haven't thought about, instead you should get clarification on your misconceptions by posting in a relevant section.. If the Devs dont respond maybe you have something there but until that think of it as thoughts that float around that no one cares for.

You may be right that it essentially leads to the same paradox, but it is still a mile better than pow centralized mining pools. In the next version you can essentially have dynamic number of delegates above 101 if the market demands for it.

Anyways if it does achieve global ledger status then I'd see esch country represented as a delegate and voted in or out via shareholders of bts. If you wish to buy votes go ahead, it will cost you commensurate the amount of voting power you wish to acquire, and they will probably learn that it is simply not an efficient method of retaining/achieving power. Today coercion leads to votes aswell as persuasion and some buying votes from people, however it becomes a smaller problem on a token based system incentivized to be following generally acceptable policies for society in general.

Again it's like someone trying to mount a 51% attack by buying all the coins on a pos system and which we understand is never going to happen on a relevant scale. By the time that the powers to be understand it to be a problem buying 51% of the voting power will not be economically feasible.

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September 19, 2015, 11:14:10 PM
 #784

It may seems stupid but I don't care : what's is DPoS ?

asking questions like that is never stupid Tongue

dpos stands for delegated proof of stake... its a modified proof of stake where the people who 'stake' are 'elected' or 'chosen' in some fashion

think of it like paid officials that are elected in... and then think about why it doesnt work in practice (as is proven now) also read my last post Tongue

You haven't refuted anything that a thousand other people haven't thought about, instead you should get clarification on your misconceptions by posting in a relevant section.. If the Devs dont respond maybe you have something there but until that think of it as thoughts that float around that no one cares for.

its cool for you to spout out nonsense like this (it isnt really but whatever) but to blindly follow people without using your own set of logical patterns is ridiculous.. think for 1 second how bad actors can work on dpos... i get it.. you have an agenda.. we all get it.. but because you have an agenda doesnt make you or anyone else who has an agenda correct? get it? good

tell me in YOUR words why dpos is good, because i can and have told you why in PRACTICE dpos is horrible.... which is funny because some of us can change our minds about things, others just like to be stuck in their ways, which seems to be you.... i used to be a huge proponent of dpos until the reality of the situation that dpos is highly flawed in practice came to light....
sometimes things in theory are better than they are in practice.. deal with it

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September 19, 2015, 11:19:17 PM
 #785

It may seems stupid but I don't care : what's is DPoS ?

asking questions like that is never stupid Tongue

dpos stands for delegated proof of stake... its a modified proof of stake where the people who 'stake' are 'elected' or 'chosen' in some fashion

think of it like paid officials that are elected in... and then think about why it doesnt work in practice (as is proven now) also read my last post Tongue

You haven't refuted anything that a thousand other people haven't thought about, instead you should get clarification on your misconceptions by posting in a relevant section.. If the Devs dont respond maybe you have something there but until that think of it as thoughts that float around that no one cares for.

its cool for you to spout out nonsense like this (it isnt really but whatever) but to blindly follow people without using your own set of logical patterns is ridiculous.. think for 1 second how bad actors can work on dpos... i get it.. you have an agenda.. we all get it.. but because you have an agenda doesnt make you or anyone else who has an agenda correct? get it? good

tell me in YOUR words why dpos is good, because i can and have told you why in PRACTICE dpos is horrible.... which is funny because some of us can change our minds about things, others just like to be stuck in their ways, which seems to be you.... i used to be a huge proponent of dpos until the reality of the situation that dpos is highly flawed in practice came to light....
sometimes things in theory are better than they are in practice.. deal with it

Check my edit.

That's the last I'll say about that here.. The rest I'll leave for you to respond perhaps in the right thread. I understand your concerns and those are probably the first things I thought about when lesrning about dpos but I've come around to seeing it in a different light, opposite of yourself.
The fact of tye matter remains that it is a better consensus implementation than pow in trying to achieve the same goal. It is not perfect but it is a step in the right direction imo. Even Gaven Anderson is starting to realize this recently in his reddit posts, tslking about prediction markets to come to decisions or usimg oracles that are trusted to do them.

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September 19, 2015, 11:22:53 PM
 #786



That's the last I'll say about that here..

hopefully you keep your word this time :/

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September 19, 2015, 11:26:37 PM
 #787



That's the last I'll say about that here..

hopefully you keep your word this time :/

talking to a monkey here it seems.  I'll let this team decide if dpos is right or not, all im saying its a valid option now. Your oppinion has been given albeit an misinformed one.

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September 19, 2015, 11:38:59 PM
 #788



That's the last I'll say about that here..

hopefully you keep your word this time :/

talking to a monkey here it seems.  I'll let this team decide if dpos is right or not, all im saying its a valid option now. Your oppinion has been given albeit an misinformed one.

thats what i thought

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September 19, 2015, 11:49:53 PM
 #789

It may seems stupid but I don't care : what's is DPoS ?

asking questions like that is never stupid Tongue

dpos stands for delegated proof of stake... its a modified proof of stake where the people who 'stake' are 'elected' or 'chosen' in some fashion

think of it like paid officials that are elected in... and then think about why it doesnt work in practice (as is proven now) also read my last post Tongue

You haven't refuted anything that a thousand other people haven't thought about, instead you should get clarification on your misconceptions by posting in a relevant section.. If the Devs dont respond maybe you have something there but until that think of it as thoughts that float around that no one cares for.

its cool for you to spout out nonsense like this (it isnt really but whatever) but to blindly follow people without using your own set of logical patterns is ridiculous.. think for 1 second how bad actors can work on dpos... i get it.. you have an agenda.. we all get it.. but because you have an agenda doesnt make you or anyone else who has an agenda correct? get it? good

tell me in YOUR words why dpos is good, because i can and have told you why in PRACTICE dpos is horrible.... which is funny because some of us can change our minds about things, others just like to be stuck in their ways, which seems to be you.... i used to be a huge proponent of dpos until the reality of the situation that dpos is highly flawed in practice came to light....
sometimes things in theory are better than they are in practice.. deal with it

You still haven't told me in YOUR words why you think dpos is bad other than ripping off a section of Paul's blog without reference, yet you want others to write some in depth analysis for you to try to explain what's already explained to monkeys a thousand times?
YOU haven't told me anything but the fact that you were a dpos bull until you read things you don't understand and got brainwashed.. I guess that happens when your iq is that low.

So much for blindly following people without using your own set of logical patterns hey?

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September 19, 2015, 11:57:49 PM
 #790

It may seems stupid but I don't care : what's is DPoS ?

asking questions like that is never stupid Tongue

dpos stands for delegated proof of stake... its a modified proof of stake where the people who 'stake' are 'elected' or 'chosen' in some fashion

think of it like paid officials that are elected in... and then think about why it doesnt work in practice (as is proven now) also read my last post Tongue

You haven't refuted anything that a thousand other people haven't thought about, instead you should get clarification on your misconceptions by posting in a relevant section.. If the Devs dont respond maybe you have something there but until that think of it as thoughts that float around that no one cares for.

its cool for you to spout out nonsense like this (it isnt really but whatever) but to blindly follow people without using your own set of logical patterns is ridiculous.. think for 1 second how bad actors can work on dpos... i get it.. you have an agenda.. we all get it.. but because you have an agenda doesnt make you or anyone else who has an agenda correct? get it? good

tell me in YOUR words why dpos is good, because i can and have told you why in PRACTICE dpos is horrible.... which is funny because some of us can change our minds about things, others just like to be stuck in their ways, which seems to be you.... i used to be a huge proponent of dpos until the reality of the situation that dpos is highly flawed in practice came to light....
sometimes things in theory are better than they are in practice.. deal with it

You still haven't told me in YOUR words why you think dpos is bad other than ripping off a section of Paul's blog without reference, yet you want others to write some in depth analysis for you to try to explain what's already explained to monkeys a thousand times?
YOU haven't told me anything but the fact that you were a dpos bull until you read things you don't understand and got brainwashed.. I guess that happens when your iq is that low.

So much for blindly following people without using your own set of logical patterns hey?

reading comprehension is weak in this one.

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September 20, 2015, 12:09:08 AM
 #791

Nice one George! Next time try to reach for achievable tasks.. You might hurt your brain (and ego it seems).. For a second I thought hey why haven't I heard of you refuting dpos before? Lol obviously I got my answer and it made sense.

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September 20, 2015, 12:14:31 AM
 #792

Nice one George! Next time try to reach for achievable tasks.. You might hurt your brain (and ego it seems).. For a second I thought hey why haven't I heard of you refuting dpos before? Lol obviously I got my answer and it made sense.

perhaps you couldnt read.. just like you couldnt read my other responses which show you exactly why dpos is fatally flawed... i get it.. you dont agree because you have an agenda... scammers dont think things through logically they base their flawed views on their own personal agendas.. now perhaps start being a man of your word and stop posting for the 30th time you have said it
* yak drops mic

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September 20, 2015, 12:17:39 AM
 #793

Nice one George! Next time try to reach for achievable tasks.. You might hurt your brain (and ego it seems).. For a second I thought hey why haven't I heard of you refuting dpos before? Lol obviously I got my answer and it made sense.

perhaps you couldnt read.. just like you couldnt read my other responses which show you exactly why dpos is fatally flawed... i get it.. you dont agree because you have an agenda... scammers dont think things through logically they base their flawed views on their own personal agendas.. now perhaps start being a man of your word and stop posting for the 30th time you have said it
* yak drops mic

Any monkey can pick quotes without reference and pass off as their thoughts, what the monkey can't do is counter any arguments without complete understanding of the concepts... Judging by your responses to me, which have attacked premises that paul made that you chose to conveniently ignore, you are not to be taken seriously ( not that I ever did) but merely leaving it out there for everyone else to see through you.

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September 20, 2015, 12:18:49 AM
 #794

Nice one George! Next time try to reach for achievable tasks.. You might hurt your brain (and ego it seems).. For a second I thought hey why haven't I heard of you refuting dpos before? Lol obviously I got my answer and it made sense.

perhaps you couldnt read.. just like you couldnt read my other responses which show you exactly why dpos is fatally flawed... i get it.. you dont agree because you have an agenda... scammers dont think things through logically they base their flawed views on their own personal agendas.. now perhaps start being a man of your word and stop posting for the 30th time you have said it
* yak drops mic

Any monkey can pick quotes without reference and pass off as their thoughts, what the monkey can't do is counter any arguments without complete understanding of the concepts... Judging by your responses to me, which have attacked premises that paul made that you chose to conveniently ignore, you are not to be taken seriously ( not that I ever did) but merely leaving it out there for everyone else to see through you.

do you vote? like you know.. for actual elections?
there is your *PROOF* as to why dpos is fatally flawed

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September 20, 2015, 12:19:58 AM
 #795

lol @ premises posed by you? all you did was link a thread which are none of your own thoughts.. you cant even see how dpos can be easily exploited (and currently is in the case of bitshares)

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September 20, 2015, 12:22:54 AM
 #796

the sad facts here are you are obviously trying to push your own bullshit agenda even though you are wrong (and you are wrong)

you are basically like the people who think the world is flat...
or the people who thought smoking was good for you...
whatever fad you want to cling to is your own business but dont try to make it out to be right.. ok?

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September 20, 2015, 12:26:02 AM
 #797

and since you have the inability to read, i said that i was ONCE pro dpos... i am no longer that.. you can even ask syntaks, because he thought i was pro dpos.

im the type of person who has no problem changing their views, and in this case i went from pro dpos, to seeing how in theory it was good but in practice it is complete shit and broken.

maybe youll come around and see that you are wrong, or maybe you will just start spouting bullshit from the next fad that comes along for you to scam with :O

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September 20, 2015, 12:28:13 AM
 #798




this sums up dpos
<-- theory of dpos |  reality of dpos -->

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September 20, 2015, 12:30:26 AM
 #799

and since you have the inability to read, i said that i was ONCE pro dpos... i am no longer that.. you can even ask syntaks, because he thought i was pro dpos.

im the type of person who has no problem changing their views, and in this case i went from pro dpos, to seeing how in theory it was good but in practice it is complete shit and broken.

maybe youll come around and see that you are wrong, or maybe you will just start spouting bullshit from the next fad that comes along for you to scam with :O

DPOS isn't being considered as an option at this time.  At once it was being considered, however, as recent events unfold and prove it potentially an unstable or unrighteous approach - I'd rather not build our foundation around it.  That's not to say it couldn't be improved - that's just me saying we're not considering it.  yak was *very* pro-DPOS at one point to the extent of him hammering me to switch to it.  Let's not turn this thread back into a playground please.

     Best regards,

syntaks
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September 20, 2015, 12:31:32 AM
 #800


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