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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 376078 times)
Pangia
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March 31, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
 #261

Good Morning Everyone,

Quick Question -----IF Butterflylabs turns out to be a huge scam, will the publication of such in the main-stream media adversely effect the price of Bitcoins?

My rational is that if there is such an outcome (Butterflylabs is a scam), it will tarnish the entire Bitcoin movement, but I would like to hear your thoughts as well.



 
 
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March 31, 2013, 01:38:28 PM
 #262

I'm pretty new to mining and ordered a BFL Jalapeno. Should I get a refund?


but from where I'm standing all signs point to scam

 

Maybe you should stand somewhere else.

- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud. *BUZZ* try again.
- They never promised ASIC product for August 2012. They predicted they'd be able to ship by October 2012. *BUZZ* try again.
- Ok, this one is accurate. Josh does come off like a humongous douchecanoe. *DING*
- UH, no, press releases are not "always 'great' and exactly what you want to hear". Most press releases are apologizing for yet another delay, production/testing problem, etc, and begging for customer patience and forgiveness. In fact, the vast majority of press releases are pretty much the OPPOSITE of "exactly what you want to hear", since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pre-order customers want to hear "Hey, we're shipping your unit(s) now!" *BUZZ*

SO, let's see, 3 out of 4 assertions incorrect.  *golfclap*

But yes, please do continue to encourage people to cancel their pre-orders and get refunds. Every cancelled pre-order earlier than mine means I move up the line and get mine sooner.


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March 31, 2013, 02:40:29 PM
 #263

Aahzman wrote:

Maybe you should stand somewhere else.

- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud. *BUZZ* try again.
- They never promised ASIC product for August 2012. They predicted they'd be able to ship by October 2012. *BUZZ* try again.
- Ok, this one is accurate. Josh does come off like a humongous douchecanoe. *DING*
- UH, no, press releases are not "always 'great' and exactly what you want to hear". Most press releases are apologizing for yet another delay, production/testing problem, etc, and begging for customer patience and forgiveness. In fact, the vast majority of press releases are pretty much the OPPOSITE of "exactly what you want to hear", since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pre-order customers want to hear "Hey, we're shipping your unit(s) now!" *BUZZ*

SO, let's see, 3 out of 4 assertions incorrect.  *golfclap*

But yes, please do continue to encourage people to cancel their pre-orders and get refunds. Every cancelled pre-order earlier than mine means I move up the line and get mine sooner.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a question regarding the bolded statement -- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud.
Before my question however, I would like to share a story:

There was a newly created school in NY for 5 year olds. This school promised to essentially turn 5 year olds into Einsteins within 30 days. It's promise was that it would increase the IQ of a student by 30-40 points.  The "guy running the school" (the Principal) was a highly qualified individual who was well liked by both the school's staff as well as the parents.  Every parent who enrolled their child into the school believed that the school could indeed significantly increase the IQ of their children. Their wish was that they're child could someday grow up to change the world for the better.  The blogs and reviews for the school were extremely positive.  The school's advertisements could been seen everywhere.  If a Google search of the words increase+IQ were performed, the first paid ad that appeared was for the school. But the clouds began to darken.

A parent, concerned that 30 days had elapsed and her 5 year old son "Johny" still didn't know his ABC's began to dig into the background of the staff and to her surprise discovered that a "high level executive" within the schoold was a Registered Sex Offender (a pedophile), a Level 1 to be precise (the most violent/determined to reoffend again). He was arrested and convicted of raping a 5 year old boy.  This "high level executive" was actually on parole and a condition of his parole was that he not have any contact with children.  His presence in the school as a "high level executive" was therefore a clear violation of the conditions of his parole. 

When the concerned parent began telling the other parents about what she had discovered, they began to surmise that maybe, just maybe, this "high level executive" was actually the one pulling all the strings in the school and that the "guy running the school" (the Principal) was just a front man, after all, you couldn't have a convicted pedophile as the Principal of a school for 5 year olds. More rumors began to spread that maybe, just maybe, the entire school was a scam devised by the convicted pedophile as a means to gain access to hundreds of 5 year olds, where he could have his pick.

As word began to spread, parents began to remove their children from the school.  Many parents however, kept their children enrolled despite the fact that their 5 year olds would be in the same building on a daily basis with this convicted pedophile. They continued to keep their children in the school even after 60 days elapsed and there was no increase in their child's intelligence, then 90 days and no increase, then 120 days and no increase, then 150 days and no increase, then 180 days and no increase.  Eventually, the school year came to an end and the children were no smarter than the day they first entered the school.  But despite this, some parents planned to re-enroll their children the following year. Their rationale was that they believed that the school could deliver even after it failed to deliver month after month for the prior school year.

When asked why they would keep their children in the school after its failure to deliver as promised, they couldn't provide a logical answer. They would always provide a statement that translated into "I still believe in the school because I have hope that they might deliver" and when asked about the convicted pedophile lurking within the school, they responded that he wasn't a teacher nor was he the principal, he was a "high level executive" walking amongst their children on a daily basis.

So my question is as follows:

If you were to initially enroll your child into this school and it continued to fail to deliver (increase his/her IQ by 30-40 points in 30 days) and then you discovered that a "high level executive" working inside of the school was convicted pedophile, would you keep your child in the school?



 
 
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j.teller
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March 31, 2013, 04:06:20 PM
 #264

@Pangia you just brought a bomb to a knife fight   Shocked
coldguy
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March 31, 2013, 04:31:09 PM
 #265

There is no other way out. I invest BFL for one machine just to hedge the risk. The future hashing power will go to BFL's customers? Avalon's? or ASICMiners?

Apparently BFL eats up my entire money and dilevering nothing, at least at this moment.
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March 31, 2013, 04:33:44 PM
 #266

I got my money back for a pre-ordered Jalapeno in December, and i'm glad I did - They would not refund the original amount of BTC sent to them so I took about a 50% loss (in number of bitcoins, the value at the time was the same), but with the recent increases in price getting that refund resulted in a $USD profit of about 5x what I paid.

I don't know if I'd recommend getting your money back at these prices, but giving your money to BFL before they ship any future product seems pretty dumb

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Aahzman
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March 31, 2013, 05:00:15 PM
 #267

Aahzman wrote:

Maybe you should stand somewhere else.

- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud. *BUZZ* try again.
- They never promised ASIC product for August 2012. They predicted they'd be able to ship by October 2012. *BUZZ* try again.
- Ok, this one is accurate. Josh does come off like a humongous douchecanoe. *DING*
- UH, no, press releases are not "always 'great' and exactly what you want to hear". Most press releases are apologizing for yet another delay, production/testing problem, etc, and begging for customer patience and forgiveness. In fact, the vast majority of press releases are pretty much the OPPOSITE of "exactly what you want to hear", since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pre-order customers want to hear "Hey, we're shipping your unit(s) now!" *BUZZ*

SO, let's see, 3 out of 4 assertions incorrect.  *golfclap*

But yes, please do continue to encourage people to cancel their pre-orders and get refunds. Every cancelled pre-order earlier than mine means I move up the line and get mine sooner.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a question regarding the bolded statement -- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud.
Before my question however, I would like to share a story:

There was a newly created school in NY for 5 year olds. This school promised to essentially turn 5 year olds into Einsteins within 30 days. It's promise was that it would increase the IQ of a student by 30-40 points.  The "guy running the school" (the Principal) was a highly qualified individual who was well liked by both the school's staff as well as the parents.  Every parent who enrolled their child into the school believed that the school could indeed significantly increase the IQ of their children. Their wish was that they're child could someday grow up to change the world for the better.  The blogs and reviews for the school were extremely positive.  The school's advertisements could been seen everywhere.  If a Google search of the words increase+IQ were performed, the first paid ad that appeared was for the school. But the clouds began to darken.

A parent, concerned that 30 days had elapsed and her 5 year old son "Johny" still didn't know his ABC's began to dig into the background of the staff and to her surprise discovered that a "high level executive" within the schoold was a Registered Sex Offender (a pedophile), a Level 1 to be precise (the most violent/determined to reoffend again). He was arrested and convicted of raping a 5 year old boy.  This "high level executive" was actually on parole and a condition of his parole was that he not have any contact with children.  His presence in the school as a "high level executive" was therefore a clear violation of the conditions of his parole. 

When the concerned parent began telling the other parents about what she had discovered, they began to surmise that maybe, just maybe, this "high level executive" was actually the one pulling all the strings in the school and that the "guy running the school" (the Principal) was just a front man, after all, you couldn't have a convicted pedophile as the Principal of a school for 5 year olds. More rumors began to spread that maybe, just maybe, the entire school was a scam devised by the convicted pedophile as a means to gain access to hundreds of 5 year olds, where he could have his pick.

As word began to spread, parents began to remove their children from the school.  Many parents however, kept their children enrolled despite the fact that their 5 year olds would be in the same building on a daily basis with this convicted pedophile. They continued to keep their children in the school even after 60 days elapsed and there was no increase in their child's intelligence, then 90 days and no increase, then 120 days and no increase, then 150 days and no increase, then 180 days and no increase.  Eventually, the school year came to an end and the children were no smarter than the day they first entered the school.  But despite this, some parents planned to re-enroll their children the following year. Their rationale was that they believed that the school could deliver even after it failed to deliver month after month for the prior school year.

When asked why they would keep their children in the school after its failure to deliver as promised, they couldn't provide a logical answer. They would always provide a statement that translated into "I still believe in the school because I have hope that they might deliver" and when asked about the convicted pedophile lurking within the school, they responded that he wasn't a teacher nor was he the principal, he was a "high level executive" walking amongst their children on a daily basis.

So my question is as follows:

If you were to initially enroll your child into this school and it continued to fail to deliver (increase his/her IQ by 30-40 points in 30 days) and then you discovered that a "high level executive" working inside of the school was convicted pedophile, would you keep your child in the school?



TL:DR version: Blah blah pedophile shocking buzzword blah blah hysteria blah blah conspiracy blah blah non-relevant bullshit blah blah blah.

I wasn't debating the impact of a convicted felon working anywhere at BFL, i was refuting the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company".  The rest of the tripe you wasted probably 20-30 minutes typing out is completely irrelevant. 

And if i found out there was a convicted pedophile working inside my child's school, i would do something about it. If the police and school board wouldn't remove and incarcerate them, i would arrange their departure by other means.  I helped the police put my brother-in-law away for child porn, I've got no moral hesitation in letting the local chapter of the Hell's Angels know there's a convicted kiddie-diddler needing "relocation".

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March 31, 2013, 09:10:59 PM
 #268

Aahzman wrote:

TL:DR version: Blah blah pedophile shocking buzzword blah blah hysteria blah blah conspiracy blah blah non-relevant bullshit blah blah blah.

I wasn't debating the impact of a convicted felon working anywhere at BFL, i was refuting the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company".   The rest of the tripe you wasted probably 20-30 minutes typing out is completely irrelevant.  

And if i found out there was a convicted pedophile working inside my child's school, i would do something about it. If the police and school board wouldn't remove and incarcerate them, i would arrange their departure by other means.  I helped the police put my brother-in-law away for child porn, I've got no moral hesitation in letting the local chapter of the Hell's Angels know there's a convicted kiddie-diddler needing "relocation".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Aahzman,

WOW!  I'm sorry if I said something offensive, but there's no need to inject profanity. I thought that there would be intelligent discussion on this forum. The story that I created was only to present the current situation under a different set of circumstances.

My goal in providing the current situation under a different set of circumstances was to make it easier to digest/understand, so please don't waste your time atttempting to debunk what I wrote or write anecdoctal stories of how you assisted law enforcment.  It's irrelevant under the current circumstances. You missed the point of what I was trying to convey by posting a response that included how you put your brother-in-law away for child porn.

You stated: I wasn't debating the impact of a convicted felon working anywhere at BFL, i was refuting the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company".  

How were you REFUTING the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company"?
A title is meaningless sir. Having the title "CEO" doesn't always mean that you are actually running anything. There are plenty of 'front-men' in the world of cons.

How can you refute anything if you are not physically at the location and observing the day to day operations of the company.
To refute would be that you know with the highest degree of certainty that the statement made was in fact false.  How would you know for a fact who is "running the company"? You cannot know for a "FACT" anything and therefore CANNOT refute anything.  This is all conjecture on your part.

 

I do have other questions, specifically for you:  

1- If it turns out that BL is a huge scam and everyone's funds are stolen, how exactly will this theft be reported to the authorities?

2- Which law enforcement entity would perform the investigation? Don't yell out FBI, US Sec Serv. Because to be more exact, where did the theft occur, US, overseas? Or would local law enforcement investigate.  

3- Will reporting the theft to the authorities open a can of worms (taxation issues, prior online activity, sales/purchases, etc.) for the complainant (victim)? --- (i.e. Investigator/Detective/Agent says "the digital currency that you sent to alleged perp. were derived 'how'? ----Can we have documentation that you in fact 'owned' these Bitcoins? Can you provide your records for us to examine?

Trust me --- all of these things and more will be required for prosecution if in fact this thing turns out to be a huge scam.

The professional con knows how the system works and the current situation is an ideal situation for them to exploit.  





 
 
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March 31, 2013, 09:15:49 PM
 #269

Can someone please direct me to where I might be able to find the data that would reveal how much in total BF has taken in for the pre-orders?

Thanks in advance.


 
 
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March 31, 2013, 09:30:51 PM
 #270

Can someone please direct me to where I might be able to find the data that would reveal how much in total BF has taken in for the pre-orders?

Thanks in advance.

Nobody has exact numbers on this save BFL and they're intentionally vague. The best we have is a voluntary list located here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89685.0

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March 31, 2013, 09:41:30 PM
 #271

Thanks Creativex.  

I saw it stated somewhere on the forum where the total amount might be near $100 million in pre-orders.  I don't know if that's an exaggeration.


 
 
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Aahzman
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April 01, 2013, 12:45:19 AM
 #272

Can someone please direct me to where I might be able to find the data that would reveal how much in total BF has taken in for the pre-orders?

Thanks in advance.

You try to come off as being so smart, do your own research.

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April 01, 2013, 12:48:48 AM
 #273

I don't think it was originally a scam, I just think they bit off more than they could chew, now its all over.



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April 01, 2013, 12:49:36 AM
 #274

Aahzman wrote:

TL:DR version: Blah blah pedophile shocking buzzword blah blah hysteria blah blah conspiracy blah blah non-relevant bullshit blah blah blah.

I wasn't debating the impact of a convicted felon working anywhere at BFL, i was refuting the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company".   The rest of the tripe you wasted probably 20-30 minutes typing out is completely irrelevant.  

And if i found out there was a convicted pedophile working inside my child's school, i would do something about it. If the police and school board wouldn't remove and incarcerate them, i would arrange their departure by other means.  I helped the police put my brother-in-law away for child porn, I've got no moral hesitation in letting the local chapter of the Hell's Angels know there's a convicted kiddie-diddler needing "relocation".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Aahzman,

WOW!  I'm sorry if I said something offensive, but there's no need to inject profanity. I thought that there would be intelligent discussion on this forum. The story that I created was only to present the current situation under a different set of circumstances.

My goal in providing the current situation under a different set of circumstances was to make it easier to digest/understand, so please don't waste your time atttempting to debunk what I wrote or write anecdoctal stories of how you assisted law enforcment.  It's irrelevant under the current circumstances. You missed the point of what I was trying to convey by posting a response that included how you put your brother-in-law away for child porn.

You stated: I wasn't debating the impact of a convicted felon working anywhere at BFL, i was refuting the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company".  

How were you REFUTING the statement that a person convicted of mail fraud was "running the company"?
A title is meaningless sir. Having the title "CEO" doesn't always mean that you are actually running anything. There are plenty of 'front-men' in the world of cons.

How can you refute anything if you are not physically at the location and observing the day to day operations of the company.
To refute would be that you know with the highest degree of certainty that the statement made was in fact false.  How would you know for a fact who is "running the company"? You cannot know for a "FACT" anything and therefore CANNOT refute anything.  This is all conjecture on your part.

 

I do have other questions, specifically for you:  

1- If it turns out that BL is a huge scam and everyone's funds are stolen, how exactly will this theft be reported to the authorities?

2- Which law enforcement entity would perform the investigation? Don't yell out FBI, US Sec Serv. Because to be more exact, where did the theft occur, US, overseas? Or would local law enforcement investigate.  

3- Will reporting the theft to the authorities open a can of worms (taxation issues, prior online activity, sales/purchases, etc.) for the complainant (victim)? --- (i.e. Investigator/Detective/Agent says "the digital currency that you sent to alleged perp. were derived 'how'? ----Can we have documentation that you in fact 'owned' these Bitcoins? Can you provide your records for us to examine?

Trust me --- all of these things and more will be required for prosecution if in fact this thing turns out to be a huge scam.

The professional con knows how the system works and the current situation is an ideal situation for them to exploit.  





1. *shrug* I'll only be out $300, which was how much i was willing to risk on a new, untried hardware platform.  Am I going to get my boxers in a twist over it? Not at all. I'll say "well, crap. That turned out to be a bust. Oh well. Lesson learned." and move on.  Everything about bitcoin is a risk, to some extent. Investing in bitcoin-related securities, mining bonds, currency exchange trading. You risk the amount that you're willing to lose, just like gambling.   Obviously, it'll hurt some people more than others if BFL turns out to be a scam.  I choose to believe they are legit, but plagued with some bad luck and incompetence.

2. the company is registered in the US, so I dunno which LEO would perform the investigation. As I'm in Canada, IDGAF.

3. See response $2.


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April 01, 2013, 12:54:42 AM
 #275

but there's no need to inject profanity.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhA.

Oh. You were serious. Let me laugh harder.

BAAHAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

if you consider "bullshit" to be "profanity", you are seriously not prepared for the internet. Grow up.

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April 01, 2013, 01:07:15 AM
 #276

I have a question regarding the bolded statement -- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud.

Actually he was running the company.  As soon as it became known who he was and what he'd done they quickly arranged to transfer the CEO title to somebody else.  Go ahead, look it up.

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April 01, 2013, 01:13:04 AM
 #277

Thanks Creativex.  

I saw it stated somewhere on the forum where the total amount might be near $100 million in pre-orders.  I don't know if that's an exaggeration.
Where you saw statement? $100million is 1000 mini rig + 53850 SC, a bit much?
I wait for 4 avalon unit, 1 bfl mini rig unit.

I have a question regarding the bolded statement -- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud.

Actually he was running the company.  As soon as it became known who he was and what he'd done they quickly arranged to transfer the CEO title to somebody else.  Go ahead, look it up.
You say, so you know, so you show?

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April 01, 2013, 01:28:43 AM
 #278

Good Morning Everyone,

Quick Question -----IF Butterflylabs turns out to be a huge scam, will the publication of such in the main-stream media adversely effect the price of Bitcoins?

My rational is that if there is such an outcome (Butterflylabs is a scam), it will tarnish the entire Bitcoin movement, but I would like to hear your thoughts as well.



well the pirate fiasco was only $6 million and it took a blow to the bitcoin economy https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108390.0 http://bitcoinmagazine.com/the-pirate-saga-and-so-it-ends/

and BFL is at over $100 million

so.... IF it ends up being a scam, I would imagine it would dent the economy pretty bad, but I think the economy will eventually recover.  but as the other guy says maybe its not a scam.  he's invested into it so of course he's going to believe all is well.

I'm pretty new to mining and ordered a BFL Jalapeno. Should I get a refund?


but from where I'm standing all signs point to scam

 

Maybe you should stand somewhere else.

- The guy "running the company" isn't the guy who was convicted of mail fraud. *BUZZ* try again.
- They never promised ASIC product for August 2012. They predicted they'd be able to ship by October 2012. *BUZZ* try again.
- Ok, this one is accurate. Josh does come off like a humongous douchecanoe. *DING*
- UH, no, press releases are not "always 'great' and exactly what you want to hear". Most press releases are apologizing for yet another delay, production/testing problem, etc, and begging for customer patience and forgiveness. In fact, the vast majority of press releases are pretty much the OPPOSITE of "exactly what you want to hear", since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pre-order customers want to hear "Hey, we're shipping your unit(s) now!" *BUZZ*

SO, let's see, 3 out of 4 assertions incorrect.  *golfclap*

But yes, please do continue to encourage people to cancel their pre-orders and get refunds. Every cancelled pre-order earlier than mine means I move up the line and get mine sooner.



haha thanks for the golf clap, I love your response to my speculations.  its exactly what I was looking for, because on every other thread this is what is being posted, (and i wanted verifiable sources on claims) so I was fishing for truth here, and you delivered.  well without sources, but I'll google for em

so the facts are the CEO isn't a mail fraudster.  cool.  I hope everything goes well then.  for your sake.

and what I meant is that the press releases seem really professionally apologetic and full of B.S. with a never ending stream of false promises.  haha "douchcanoe!!!!"  Cheesy

alright well thanks guys for bringing me up to speed I spent hours investigating this matter to judge where to put my assets.  at least its even more elusive, but the truth is coming out.  I'm gonna go verify what you said ahzman

yeah baby yeah
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April 01, 2013, 01:31:46 AM
 #279

I am wondering if with bitcoin prices where they are at if they will just hold these ASIC machines for themselves and generate a huge amount of bitcoins at the expense of  the person pre-ordering. 
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April 01, 2013, 01:36:23 AM
 #280

Can someone please direct me to where I might be able to find the data that would reveal how much in total BF has taken in for the pre-orders?

Thanks in advance.

You try to come off as being so smart, do your own research.


way to be an ass aahzman.  your personality reminds me of the comic book dealer from the simpsons.  you have some good lines.  I loved the golf clap you gave me.  it made my day. 

yeah baby yeah
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