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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 376079 times)
roy7
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April 24, 2013, 03:12:28 AM
 #681

Except we aren't investors in their company (or in financial assets managed by their company) and we receive no dividends/interest/return and were promised none. We are customers who pre-ordered products that haven't been delivered yet.
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MooC Tals
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April 24, 2013, 03:29:31 AM
 #682

Again you are not in a position to determine the profitability of the ASICs. We could estimate a point at which profitability is probabilistically unlikely and then say they have committed fraud unless they refund the difference after shipping. But if they:

A) Deliver a real product as promised to the vast majority who pre-ordered
B) The product performs as the community expected or decided to agree upon revision (as indicated by their lack of cancellations of the preorder)
C) The company is capable of funding future operations based solely upon profits and debt explicitly solicited for operational capital.

Then no they are not a ponzi scheme. If BFL delays for another window without a partial refund, then you are correct that investors will likely not be able to recover their capital. In this case, they have committed fraud.

I will agree that they are poorly managed and have made bold promises that in hindsight were impossible to deliver. However, they have admitted to the revised numbers and the community who preordered has continued to maintain their orders. If BFL had continued to assert both the wattage and performance numbers and could not refund the money if requested, then yes they are a ponzi scheme.




These schemes can go on for years like Madoff and that was legal until it went bust. You don't think that them raising prices is not a red flag? By everyone pre ordering is perpetuating this.

Well I'm hearing Oct now as a new ship date. I don't care if any of you get your miner it will always be too late.
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April 24, 2013, 03:30:29 AM
 #683

they have sent a few units out to buyers now...

it's only a matter of how long everyone else has to wait!
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April 24, 2013, 03:32:41 AM
 #684

bfl is out
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April 24, 2013, 03:36:27 AM
 #685

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Except we aren't investors in their company (or in financial assets managed by their company) and we receive no dividends/interest/return and were promised none. We are customers who pre-ordered products that haven't been delivered yet.

We are and we aren't. From a legal sense we are not, but the purpose of this product is to generate revenue. Therefore, the only reason we are purchasing it is because we have made a decision our net ROI will be positive. If we were fed knowingly misleading information about the product, then this would be equivalent to a company telling its shareholders something untrue to maintain share price (convince us our ROI will still be positive).

We actually have more protection as consumers in that we can legally request a refund and involve paypal in this process. That said, I have become increasing more interested with how BFL has handled our money. And I am starting to see a very valid concern. If I do not receive a ship date for my BFL asic by the end of april, then I will email and post here a list of questions for BFL management to answer. Depending upon their answers, I will request a refund and contact the necessary parties within the government.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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April 24, 2013, 05:16:16 AM
 #686

So, it's not a huge breakthrough but it's still better than a lot of you people thought.  BFL started shipping yesterday and even though it was one unit yesterday and three today, the point is: THEY STARTED SHIPPING!  So for all you people saying this is a ponzi scheme (which is a retarded thought because they didn't promise ANY kind of return, just a product, which they started to ship) or a scam, here you go: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/136-shipping-update.html

I hope you enjoy the lost BTC because of your skepticism (especially those that got a refund, thanks for moving me up in line). 
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April 24, 2013, 05:21:51 AM
 #687

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So, it's not a huge breakthrough but it's still better than a lot of you people thought.  BFL started shipping yesterday and even though it was one unit yesterday and three today, the point is: THEY STARTED SHIPPING!  So for all you people saying this is a ponzi scheme (which is a retarded thought because they didn't promise ANY kind of return, just a product, which they started to ship) or a scam, here you go: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/136-shipping-update.html

I hope you enjoy the lost BTC because of your skepticism (especially those that got a refund, thanks for moving me up in line).

I ordered one. When it is connected to Slush's pool and I see 5 G/hashs of sweetness, then I will be happy. Until then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0

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April 24, 2013, 05:28:09 AM
 #688

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Look up the meaning of ponzi scheme. No really look it up. You need to actually read it and understand it. Then pick your date. I can't make it any more clear.

If they have a working product and are able to deliver all of said product to the consumers who have ordered it while maintaining a profit, then by definition they are not a ponzi scheme. I strongly suggest you look up what a ponzi scheme is before attacking me.

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass. If BFL cannot refund our money and have no product, then yes they are a ponzi scheme. Then I and my lawyers will call for a both an investigation by the government and also a class action lawsuit. The management will return to prison and we will address the ASIC issue in a more transparent and open way.





Are you sure you read it correctly? Actually its worse than a ponzi scheme it gives no returns on investments.

I don't like insulting people, but you are an exception.  You're an idiot:  First of all, it says right on your pic that a ponzi scheme "Pays returns to its investors with from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investor." PAYS INVESTORS. You even highlighted and underlined it like the *retard* you are.  When the hell did BFL give ANY money to ANYONE that hasn't specifically requested a return?  NOWHERE do they have ANY kind of claim of the nature.   They offered a product and took money for it.  Although it took them a while to start shipping, THEY ARE SHIPPING.... PRODUCTS!!! NOT MONEY!!! IDIOT!!!  Not only did you succeed in making yourself look like a stupid asshole, but you also succeeded in pissing me off (among others, I'm sure) by posting a retarded thought that your stupid brain dropped onto a keyboard like the shit from an ass drops into a toilet.  

*rant over*
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April 24, 2013, 05:29:52 AM
 #689

Quote
Except we aren't investors in their company (or in financial assets managed by their company) and we receive no dividends/interest/return and were promised none. We are customers who pre-ordered products that haven't been delivered yet.

We are and we aren't. From a legal sense we are not, but the purpose of this product is to generate revenue. Therefore, the only reason we are purchasing it is because we have made a decision our net ROI will be positive. If we were fed knowingly misleading information about the product, then this would be equivalent to a company telling its shareholders something untrue to maintain share price (convince us our ROI will still be positive).

We actually have more protection as consumers in that we can legally request a refund and involve paypal in this process. That said, I have become increasing more interested with how BFL has handled our money. And I am starting to see a very valid concern. If I do not receive a ship date for my BFL asic by the end of april, then I will email and post here a list of questions for BFL management to answer. Depending upon their answers, I will request a refund and contact the necessary parties within the government.

They won't tell you anything. They will send your money back and just take other peoples money and drag this to October. Watch
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April 24, 2013, 05:39:57 AM
 #690

Quote
So, it's not a huge breakthrough but it's still better than a lot of you people thought.  BFL started shipping yesterday and even though it was one unit yesterday and three today, the point is: THEY STARTED SHIPPING!  So for all you people saying this is a ponzi scheme (which is a retarded thought because they didn't promise ANY kind of return, just a product, which they started to ship) or a scam, here you go: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/136-shipping-update.html

I hope you enjoy the lost BTC because of your skepticism (especially those that got a refund, thanks for moving me up in line).

I ordered one. When it is connected to Slush's pool and I see 5 G/hashs of sweetness, then I will be happy. Until then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0

You're hilarious.  I'm exactly the same way (waiting for 60 though).
charleshoskinson
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April 24, 2013, 05:47:30 AM
 #691

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They won't tell you anything. They will send your money back and just take other peoples money and drag this to October. Watch

If they do, then I will still report them and also mount a campaign for a class action lawsuit. I will also petition for all BFL ads on bitcointalk to be removed.

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MooC Tals
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April 24, 2013, 05:47:49 AM
 #692

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Look up the meaning of ponzi scheme. No really look it up. You need to actually read it and understand it. Then pick your date. I can't make it any more clear.

If they have a working product and are able to deliver all of said product to the consumers who have ordered it while maintaining a profit, then by definition they are not a ponzi scheme. I strongly suggest you look up what a ponzi scheme is before attacking me.

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass. If BFL cannot refund our money and have no product, then yes they are a ponzi scheme. Then I and my lawyers will call for a both an investigation by the government and also a class action lawsuit. The management will return to prison and we will address the ASIC issue in a more transparent and open way.





Are you sure you read it correctly? Actually its worse than a ponzi scheme it gives no returns on investments.

I don't like insulting people, but you are an exception.  You're an idiot:  First of all, it says right on your pic that a ponzi scheme "Pays returns to its investors with from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investor." PAYS INVESTORS. You even highlighted and underlined it like the *retard* you are.  When the hell did BFL give ANY money to ANYONE that hasn't specifically requested a return?  NOWHERE do they have ANY kind of claim of the nature.   They offered a product and took money for it.  Although it took them a while to start shipping, THEY ARE SHIPPING.... PRODUCTS!!! NOT MONEY!!! IDIOT!!!  Not only did you succeed in making yourself look like a stupid asshole, but you also succeeded in pissing me off (among others, I'm sure) by posting a retarded thought that your stupid brain dropped onto a keyboard like the shit from an ass drops into a toilet.  

*rant over*

Hey if you want to follow it to the tee. They take new investors money to keep operations going for more than 1 year. Have you run a business for a year with zero income? Have they created any products and shipped out to pay bills, employees, taxes, electricity, supplies?

NO

They took and used pre-order money to supplement their operation FOR A YEAR!!!! and when someone asks for their money back they get more pre-orders letting them off the hook for the older pre-orders and that tends to dry up capital. So now they raise the prices to compensate for the lack of fund.

Now they could be at the end of their R&D and about to ship products now or soon in the future but why was I told in October many times that my pre-order was estimated for delivery in the last weeks of Dec 2012 and they purchased a new location and were expecting benches for assembling the units in Feb 2013? Is that a lie? or a stretching of the truth?

So the ponzi scheme here is the perpetual lying of estimated ship dates. To look at their website and watch the dates of estimate shipping being changed from March to April and soon it will be changed to May. This has been going since October and from what I hear before that.

So its not a investment ponzi scheme, its a pre-order scheduled ponzi scheme all the same a lie and a fraud.

I would say check the forums but as BFL is a great advertising payer (more money from products they have not sold) they have been removed from here.

as you put it rant over
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April 24, 2013, 05:50:42 AM
 #693

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They won't tell you anything. They will send your money back and just take other peoples money and drag this to October. Watch

If they do, then I will still report them and also mount a campaign for a class action lawsuit. I will also petition for all BFL ads on bitcointalk to be removed.

You have my signature.
Darkart
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April 24, 2013, 05:55:20 AM
 #694

i see how you guys are calling this a scam as they are taking soo long to ship out but  less than 48 hours ago they did say they have started shipping out and not to mention they have shipped out fpga units before so i highly doubt they are a scam.
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April 24, 2013, 05:55:50 AM
 #695

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Hey if you want to follow it to the tee. They take new investors money to keep operations going for more than 1 year. Have you run a business for a year with zero income? Have they created any products and shipped out to pay bills, employees, taxes, electricity, supplies?

NO

When I worked in the oil and gas business, we would sometimes have wells that took years to develop. No income on the well and lots of investor money in the project. Then you have the prospect of a dry hole. High risk. High returns.

Quote
They took and used pre-order money to supplement their operation FOR A YEAR!!!! and when someone asks for their money back they get more pre-orders letting them off the hook for the older pre-orders and that tends to dry up capital. So now they raise the prices to compensate for the lack of fund.

You cannot definitively know that. Price increases corresponded with the massive value increase of bitcoins. It's logical to assume a price increase especially considering relatively weak competition.

Quote
Now they could be at the end of their R&D and about to ship products now or soon in the future but why was I told in October many times that my pre-order was estimated for delivery in the last weeks of Dec 2012 and they purchased a new location and were expecting benches for assembling the units in Feb 2013? Is that a lie? or a stretching of the truth?

They could have run into issues with the near impossible wattage benchmark and delayed the product because of weak competition.

Quote
So the ponzi scheme here is the perpetual lying of estimated ship dates. To look at their website and watch the dates of estimate shipping being changed from March to April and soon it will be changed to May. This has been going since October and from what I hear before that.

I will agree with you that it was a very poor business decision to move these dates without a great degree of transparency why. They should have opened their lab to a media source.

Quote
So its not a investment ponzi scheme, its a pre-order scheduled ponzi scheme all the same a lie and a fraud.

In these kickstarter days, I really don't distinguish between the two other than saying that we have more protection as consumers than investors.

Quote
I would say check the forums but as BFL is a great advertising payer (more money from products they have not sold) they have been removed from here.

as you put it rant over

That doesn't give this forum the right to promote fraud. We as a community must actively seek it out and punish those responsible. Bitcointalk cannot turn a blind eye to this for much longer. But we need to be patience and see what and when BFL delivers. They have a lot of questions to answer even if they deliver.

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April 24, 2013, 06:18:17 AM
 #696

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Look up the meaning of ponzi scheme. No really look it up. You need to actually read it and understand it. Then pick your date. I can't make it any more clear.

If they have a working product and are able to deliver all of said product to the consumers who have ordered it while maintaining a profit, then by definition they are not a ponzi scheme. I strongly suggest you look up what a ponzi scheme is before attacking me.

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass. If BFL cannot refund our money and have no product, then yes they are a ponzi scheme. Then I and my lawyers will call for a both an investigation by the government and also a class action lawsuit. The management will return to prison and we will address the ASIC issue in a more transparent and open way.





Are you sure you read it correctly? Actually its worse than a ponzi scheme it gives no returns on investments.

I don't like insulting people, but you are an exception.  You're an idiot:  First of all, it says right on your pic that a ponzi scheme "Pays returns to its investors with from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investor." PAYS INVESTORS. You even highlighted and underlined it like the *retard* you are.  When the hell did BFL give ANY money to ANYONE that hasn't specifically requested a return?  NOWHERE do they have ANY kind of claim of the nature.   They offered a product and took money for it.  Although it took them a while to start shipping, THEY ARE SHIPPING.... PRODUCTS!!! NOT MONEY!!! IDIOT!!!  Not only did you succeed in making yourself look like a stupid asshole, but you also succeeded in pissing me off (among others, I'm sure) by posting a retarded thought that your stupid brain dropped onto a keyboard like the shit from an ass drops into a toilet.  

*rant over*

Hey if you want to follow it to the tee. They take new investors money to keep operations going for more than 1 year. Have you run a business for a year with zero income? Have they created any products and shipped out to pay bills, employees, taxes, electricity, supplies?

NO

They took and used pre-order money to supplement their operation FOR A YEAR!!!! and when someone asks for their money back they get more pre-orders letting them off the hook for the older pre-orders and that tends to dry up capital. So now they raise the prices to compensate for the lack of fund.

Now they could be at the end of their R&D and about to ship products now or soon in the future but why was I told in October many times that my pre-order was estimated for delivery in the last weeks of Dec 2012 and they purchased a new location and were expecting benches for assembling the units in Feb 2013? Is that a lie? or a stretching of the truth?

So the ponzi scheme here is the perpetual lying of estimated ship dates. To look at their website and watch the dates of estimate shipping being changed from March to April and soon it will be changed to May. This has been going since October and from what I hear before that.

So its not a investment ponzi scheme, its a pre-order scheduled ponzi scheme all the same a lie and a fraud.

I would say check the forums but as BFL is a great advertising payer (more money from products they have not sold) they have been removed from here.

as you put it rant over

I mean, it's not like BFL had a wildly successful and profitable FPGA business before launching the ASICs or anything.  If they had, they might be able to use their profits from the FPGA era to build the ASIC era, but since they never had a profitable FPGA business this couldn't have happened, right?  <-- This is sarcasm for the mentally impaired that might be reading this.

Oh wait, yes BFL did do all that... Oh shit...  Mooc Tals actually is a moron.  <--- This is not sarcasm, this is a simple statement of fact through the use of sarcasm.

They have a lot of questions to answer even if they deliver.

You do realize BFL is a privately held company and is under no compulsion to answer any questions, right?  A lot of people don't understand the difference between a publicly traded company and a privately held company, I suspect you probably do, but many people don't, so I just wanted to be sure that everyone else understands that BFL is privately held.


If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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April 24, 2013, 06:21:01 AM
 #697

guys everyone needs to calm down a bit

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April 24, 2013, 06:33:31 AM
 #698

Quote
Look up the meaning of ponzi scheme. No really look it up. You need to actually read it and understand it. Then pick your date. I can't make it any more clear.

If they have a working product and are able to deliver all of said product to the consumers who have ordered it while maintaining a profit, then by definition they are not a ponzi scheme. I strongly suggest you look up what a ponzi scheme is before attacking me.

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass. If BFL cannot refund our money and have no product, then yes they are a ponzi scheme. Then I and my lawyers will call for a both an investigation by the government and also a class action lawsuit. The management will return to prison and we will address the ASIC issue in a more transparent and open way.





Are you sure you read it correctly? Actually its worse than a ponzi scheme it gives no returns on investments.

I don't like insulting people, but you are an exception.  You're an idiot:  First of all, it says right on your pic that a ponzi scheme "Pays returns to its investors with from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investor." PAYS INVESTORS. You even highlighted and underlined it like the *retard* you are.  When the hell did BFL give ANY money to ANYONE that hasn't specifically requested a return?  NOWHERE do they have ANY kind of claim of the nature.   They offered a product and took money for it.  Although it took them a while to start shipping, THEY ARE SHIPPING.... PRODUCTS!!! NOT MONEY!!! IDIOT!!!  Not only did you succeed in making yourself look like a stupid asshole, but you also succeeded in pissing me off (among others, I'm sure) by posting a retarded thought that your stupid brain dropped onto a keyboard like the shit from an ass drops into a toilet.  

*rant over*

Hey if you want to follow it to the tee. They take new investors money to keep operations going for more than 1 year. Have you run a business for a year with zero income? Have they created any products and shipped out to pay bills, employees, taxes, electricity, supplies?

NO

They took and used pre-order money to supplement their operation FOR A YEAR!!!! and when someone asks for their money back they get more pre-orders letting them off the hook for the older pre-orders and that tends to dry up capital. So now they raise the prices to compensate for the lack of fund.

Now they could be at the end of their R&D and about to ship products now or soon in the future but why was I told in October many times that my pre-order was estimated for delivery in the last weeks of Dec 2012 and they purchased a new location and were expecting benches for assembling the units in Feb 2013? Is that a lie? or a stretching of the truth?

So the ponzi scheme here is the perpetual lying of estimated ship dates. To look at their website and watch the dates of estimate shipping being changed from March to April and soon it will be changed to May. This has been going since October and from what I hear before that.

So its not a investment ponzi scheme, its a pre-order scheduled ponzi scheme all the same a lie and a fraud.

I would say check the forums but as BFL is a great advertising payer (more money from products they have not sold) they have been removed from here.

as you put it rant over

I mean, it's not like BFL had a wildly successful and profitable FPGA business before launching the ASICs or anything.  If they had, they might be able to use their profits from the FPGA era to build the ASIC era, but since they never had a profitable FPGA business this couldn't have happened, right?  <-- This is sarcasm for the mentally impaired that might be reading this.

Oh wait, yes BFL did do all that... Oh shit...  Mooc Tals actually is a moron.  <--- This is not sarcasm, this is a simple statement of fact through the use of sarcasm.

They have a lot of questions to answer even if they deliver.

You do realize BFL is a privately held company and is under no compulsion to answer any questions, right?  A lot of people don't understand the difference between a publicly traded company and a privately held company, I suspect you probably do, but many people don't, so I just wanted to be sure that everyone else understands that BFL is privately held.


Yes it does require a great amount of skill to lie for a year. << that is sarcasm for the criminal. Here I know you won't answer this as I have asked you many times and you just never do.

What were you shipping in the end of Dec? When you purchased your benches in Feb?  What was it that you were going to ship? To all those that made their decision to buy in Oct?

Lie some more criminal 
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April 24, 2013, 07:05:11 AM
 #699

Honestly anyone with a brain ordering anything from BFL has doubts and those doubts are there for a reason. BFL has lied perpetually for a year. Josh is just the politician that keeps the government going. Everyone knows the politician is lying and is going to stab them in the back but what choice do they have really.

That gut feeling is there for a reason..

Hey criminal? You there or what? Hey take those Mining rigs off your pool and ship them its criminal to use other peoples equipment to mine bitcoins.

You see you won't get any answers from Josh, Inaba or what ever sock puppet he uses.


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April 24, 2013, 07:56:48 AM
 #700

Me myself would fall for BFL promised spec if I was there many months ago to put first preorder. First thing is they made very sucesful FPGA, and according to that I would trust the they shall make good ASIC. Well, from todays point of view, I am still not happy I was not there for BFL to scam me. Why is that? Well, fact is if they would deliver me my unit for 1250$, hashing 60gh/s, even in jully 2013, I would be happy. Unit could be 160W, not 80W, I would be happy. Ppl say "you could buy BTC and wait and get more money".  Ok, but who did? Me myself earned arround 1100$ trading LTC for few days, and lost over 1500$ in 1 day Smiley. Not everyone is made for trading. So now, have to admit, I trust BFL will deliver and ppl from batch1 will be happy. Rest that put orders later? not so sure... But one thing I did not fall now was Avalon for 8000$, to be delivered some june or jully. That is way too expensive.
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