Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[Aahzman]

So you said

according to the Blog entry from BFL_Jody, they shipped a couple customer units and some more developer units over the last 2 days...

and the link is their forum? https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/136-shipping-update.html#comments

Where they can make/delete/change password of users... Are you kidding? And you believe on their forum, built ad-hoc to fool you?

if you're so deadset in your belief that BFL is a scam, then no evidence anybody presents is going to convince you otherwise. 

Also, I didn't say I believed they were shipping, I said "according to...".  I made no claim of belief either way.

[eikes]

Now that the first devices have shipped, what dou say?

[Aahzman]

I say I'm withholding a definitive stance until either a) we start to see people posting their pics and vids (besides BFL-stroking reviewers who receive free units) or b) i receive my 2 Jalapenos.

I'm optimistically hopeful.

[tempestb]

Most elaborate scam ever if it were a scam.  Amazing how there are now third party reviewers making videos of the hardware units actually working.  Are they in on it as well?

Ridiculous.  There's no scam here.  You can get a refund for your order at any time if you aren't willing to wait it out. 

[lupinIII]

I bet is a scam.....Only a scam...never they will ship...never

[coalescent]

There's videos of functioning hardware. Not a scam, just a poorly-run company. ;P

[ks3rv3rg]

Its not a scam.  They've started shipping.  And even prior they had already sent dev boards to developers.  As the post above mine says, just a poorly run company.  Im sure they've learned some valuable lessons though, as well as all those that made preorders.

[MooC Tals]

So you said

according to the Blog entry from BFL_Jody, they shipped a couple customer units and some more developer units over the last 2 days...

and the link is their forum? https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/136-shipping-update.html#comments

Where they can make/delete/change password of users... Are you kidding? And you believe on their forum, built ad-hoc to fool you?

if you're so deadset in your belief that BFL is a scam, then no evidence anybody presents is going to convince you otherwise. 

Also, I didn't say I believed they were shipping, I said "according to...".  I made no claim of belief either way.

Thats great millions of pre-sales and all they can put out is jala's. Sounds like progress. You do know that the Josh has a mining pool. I hope he's not using the excuse of not having enough chips to build units to further his profit at bitcoin prices today.

Maybe even use the machines to mine on? The rigs atleast.

Nah! Josh has never lied before.

[ThinkBitcoin]

They tweeted that they have shipped the first products to early customers.

Let's see if its true.

[charleshoskinson]

Look up the meaning of ponzi scheme. No really look it up. You need to actually read it and understand it. Then pick your date. I can't make it any more clear.

If they have a working product and are able to deliver all of said product to the consumers who have ordered it while maintaining a profit, then by definition they are not a ponzi scheme. I strongly suggest you look up what a ponzi scheme is before attacking me.

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass. If BFL cannot refund our money and have no product, then yes they are a ponzi scheme. Then I and my lawyers will call for a both an investigation by the government and also a class action lawsuit. The management will return to prison and we will address the ASIC issue in a more transparent and open way.

[RustyGunz]

BFL is real. I live about 20 mins away fromm their lab. Ive been there and saw all the different systems they are selling. Yes they did have a few of each up and hashing, not at full power because owner said the were still working on heat issues and software stabilizing. but all in all I believe them because I saw them with my own eyes, they gave me and my buddy a tour of the entire place. Its legit, slow, but legit.

You wouldn't be the one on reddit who just walked in and got an impromptu tour would you?

[volosator]

Jalaps seem to mature, but it seems there are issues with the other 2 SC ASIC miners.

Actually with 3 - 25G, 50G and 1.5 TH.

I still wonder how minirig will look like

[roy7]

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass.

Why not just request a refund now if you are tired of waiting? They apparently honor all refund requests.

[lostofctrl]

Already refunded 1 jalapeno  and go for avalon 

[MooC Tals]

Look up the meaning of ponzi scheme. No really look it up. You need to actually read it and understand it. Then pick your date. I can't make it any more clear.

If they have a working product and are able to deliver all of said product to the consumers who have ordered it while maintaining a profit, then by definition they are not a ponzi scheme. I strongly suggest you look up what a ponzi scheme is before attacking me.

If they cannot deliver by some date we choose, then we have the right to request a refund in mass. If BFL cannot refund our money and have no product, then yes they are a ponzi scheme. Then I and my lawyers will call for a both an investigation by the government and also a class action lawsuit. The management will return to prison and we will address the ASIC issue in a more transparent and open way.

Are you sure you read it correctly? Actually its worse than a ponzi scheme it gives no returns on investments.

[charleshoskinson]

Again you are not in a position to determine the profitability of the ASICs. We could estimate a point at which profitability is probabilistically unlikely and then say they have committed fraud unless they refund the difference after shipping. But if they:

A) Deliver a real product as promised to the vast majority who pre-ordered
B) The product performs as the community expected or decided to agree upon revision (as indicated by their lack of cancellations of the preorder)
C) The company is capable of funding future operations based solely upon profits and debt explicitly solicited for operational capital.

Then no they are not a ponzi scheme. If BFL delays for another window without a partial refund, then you are correct that investors will likely not be able to recover their capital. In this case, they have committed fraud.

I will agree that they are poorly managed and have made bold promises that in hindsight were impossible to deliver. However, they have admitted to the revised numbers and the community who preordered has continued to maintain their orders. If BFL had continued to assert both the wattage and performance numbers and could not refund the money if requested, then yes they are a ponzi scheme.

[roy7]

Except we aren't investors in their company (or in financial assets managed by their company) and we receive no dividends/interest/return and were promised none. We are customers who pre-ordered products that haven't been delivered yet.

[MooC Tals]

Again you are not in a position to determine the profitability of the ASICs. We could estimate a point at which profitability is probabilistically unlikely and then say they have committed fraud unless they refund the difference after shipping. But if they:

A) Deliver a real product as promised to the vast majority who pre-ordered
B) The product performs as the community expected or decided to agree upon revision (as indicated by their lack of cancellations of the preorder)
C) The company is capable of funding future operations based solely upon profits and debt explicitly solicited for operational capital.

Then no they are not a ponzi scheme. If BFL delays for another window without a partial refund, then you are correct that investors will likely not be able to recover their capital. In this case, they have committed fraud.

I will agree that they are poorly managed and have made bold promises that in hindsight were impossible to deliver. However, they have admitted to the revised numbers and the community who preordered has continued to maintain their orders. If BFL had continued to assert both the wattage and performance numbers and could not refund the money if requested, then yes they are a ponzi scheme.

These schemes can go on for years like Madoff and that was legal until it went bust. You don't think that them raising prices is not a red flag? By everyone pre ordering is perpetuating this.

Well I'm hearing Oct now as a new ship date. I don't care if any of you get your miner it will always be too late.

[an1m0s1ty]

they have sent a few units out to buyers now...

it's only a matter of how long everyone else has to wait!

[milazi]

bfl is out