Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[Accumulate]

Well, that's what they said 2 weeks ago.

[.]

Give it another two weeks.

[Accumulate]

Yeah, 2 weeks is worth the wait considering I can just use my time machine to warp me back.

[.]

You have a time machine?

[Accumulate]

I will in 2 weeks, according to the sales rep who took my preorder.

[Accumulate]

I call it "the butterfly effect", perhaps I should suggest it in the terminology thread.

[.]

Can I borrow it?

[uMMcQxCWELNzkt]

I think if it were a scam, who needs to "run away" when you can just build a space ship and fly away to another galaxy.

[Accumulate]

its perfectly reliable. They already shipped a batch of tipler cilinders...

[BladeRunner]

Buy with Paypal. If they dont deliver within 44 days, dispute the transaction and get your money back.

[Richy_T]

You'll know when they ship because difficulty will sharply increase. Then everyone who wants to mine will need one to compete. Or they dont ship and things continue as they do today.

or all the bitcoins will already have been mined.

hahahaha, you are funny. Don't say you really think that to be true...

I don't know. Other than the lost opportunity cost, I'm a disinterested spectator. As long as there isn't a popcorn shortage, I'm good.

[jml]

After seeing that many people have had concerns with BFL in not delivering to their dates, I made a choice in surrendering my pre-order and I opened a case with paypal for a refund with BFL for a Jalapeno that I made in February. After seeing that:

a) Shipment dates are constantly delayed - a big tell tale that there is something fishy going on.
b) There is no product to sell, just a prototype developed after almost a year.
c) I did not get a reply on an email I sent which I asked about definitive shipment dates and information on the new power requirements.

If BFL was to ask for pre-order money, I would have accepted the fact in getting a pre-order confirmation without the need of paying until the product is ready to ship. This is the same treatment I got when I pre-ordered some smart watches that costs more than a jalapeno and these come from the US and Canada.

After getting my refund notice, I noticed that I did not get 100% refund, there is an adjustment fee applied of $5 which is enough of a rip off. Has anyone noticed this adjustment fee?

In a nutshell
==========

Until I don't see an ASIC mining product that is available for immediate shipping, I will not pre-order. It seems that ASIC technology for now is looking like vapour for the mainstream consumer.

[christoff]

Not surprise at all. Also, I would not preorder anything ....

[jml]

I pre-ordered to give BFL the benefit of the doubt. But since I pre-ordered with Paypal, you get a refund; at least most of it. I would have never pre-ordered anything with some type of guarantee.

[Bitcoin_Goddess]

In my opinion, it is more than likely a huge mistake to back out of existing pre-orders. One would lose their place in the shipping queue and re-ordering is sure to be a nightmare of a wait-time!

Any online order is basically a gamble as to whether you actually receive it or not. If there is concern, then order the product with a medium in which the money may be claimed back in case of a scam or incompetence, such as PP or a credit card, not BTC...

[Pythonideus]

Report him for violations? 

[Twerka]

Why should i sell to the public a machine capable of giving me the same amount of money it cost in only a month?

The only reason is, if the investigation cost to produce is very high, selling SOME machines before they are ready give them money to keep investigating. After the machines are ready, I deliver the ones I sold and keep all the rest I can produce.

Example:
I can create a machine which produce 10 dollars a day. It cost me 10 dollars to create it (investigation), and 1 dollar to ensamble). I have only 1 dollar.
I sold 10 machines at 2 dollars each (you can recover the money in less than 5 hours).
Now I have 21 dollars, pay 10 for "one time investigation", and 11 to create 11 machines.
I deliver 10 machines (already paid), and keep one machine.

Now I have 0 dollars, and a machine capable of giving me 10 dollars a day. Produce each machine cost me 1 dollar. So I can keep producing machine FOR ME (no sense to sell them).
The people, (buyers) has his machines (10 machines sold) and are incapable of buying more, because I'm not selling.

-------------
The only way to say I'm wrong is if the developer thinks the bitcoin is a bubble and it's going to explode, so prefer the dollars over the bitcoin produced by machines.

[jml]

Why is it a mistake in pulling back on a pre-order? You have been charged for something that doesn't exist yet.

You are given 45 days to open a claim with paypal.

https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=163596&locale=en_GB&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=GB&cmd=_help&m=BT

Quoting from the website

"You can open a dispute in the Resolution Centre of your PayPal account within 45 days of payment if:

-You don’t receive the item
-You receive an item but it’s significantly different than the description on eBay or on the seller’s website.

Notes:

-Generally buyers must wait at least seven days from the date of payment to escalate a dispute for an item not received
-If you don’t resolve or escalate a dispute within 20 days it will be closed. When this deadline is approaching, we will remind you by email
-A closed dispute cannot be reopened or escalated to a PayPal claim
-Only one dispute may be opened for each PayPal payment
-Where an item has not been received, please ensure you have given the seller enough time before opening a dispute, you have up to 45 days from the day of transaction to do this."


In my case, I did not receive the item and I was already close to my "limited 45 days" with no signs of life from BFL. Power requirements have changed and there is nothing explicit being mentioned on what are the power requirements for the ASIC's. Because there is a change in power requirements, this changes the contract conditions of what you paid for; i.e. 1 GH / 1 Watt.

Take this website as an example: http://www.toywiz.com/ourpreorpol.html

They have a policy that if you order a product, you will not be charged until the item is ready to be shipped. I understand that in this context, we are not dealing with toys, but the same applies to any product sold by any merchant. Ideally, a customer's money should be withdrawn until the item is ready to be shipped.

Amazon has a pre-order policy:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=10338651

"You can place an order for one of these items in the same way as you'd order anything else. We won't charge your credit or debit card until we dispatch the order."

Start up companies such as pebble smart watch (started with crowd sourcing via kickstarter) and the neptune smart watch which are expensive pieces of technology accept pre-orders and will invite reserved customers to pay for their watches:

http://getpebble.com/
http://www.neptunepine.com/

So my question is, why can't BFL do the same?

[miner5831]

Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, please do - I don't remember where I read this) but isn't there a law in both the US and Canada that effectively states it's illegal to charge someone for a product until it's ready to ship? Or perhaps it was more to the effect of it's illegal to use preorder payments to fund the manufacturing of a product.

I have no source to back myself up on this, I just vaguely remember reading at one point. But *if* that happens to be the case, and that's what BFL is doing, isn't that a wee bit of a problem?

[jml]

@miner5831

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_legal_to_charge_a_credit_card_before_shipping_the_product

It says the following:

It is technically legal, but it isn't good business!! Most companies only charge when they ship. It is against VISA and MasterCard's regulations for a merchant to bill their cards prior to shipping.

Contrary to what some sources indicate, the Fair Credit Billing Act does not address if it is legal for a company to charge you before shipping the product. Instead, it makes it illegal to not ship within advertised time period (or 30 days if no expected shipping date is mentioned in the agreement). If a merchant says "this item takes 90 days to ship", then they may bill right away and not have a legal problem if they ship before the 90 day window.

You might want a US based lawyer to confirm this though, but reading on this, BFL have been breaking the Fair Credit Billing Act as they have delayed shipping dates.

More information can be read here http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0219-fair-credit-billing

Complaints
The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) enforces the FCBA for most creditors except banks. If you think a creditor has violated the FCBA, file a complaint with the FTC. https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

You also can sue a creditor who violates the FCBA. If you win, you may be awarded damages, plus twice the amount of any finance charge — as long as it's between $500 and $5,000, or higher amounts if a pattern or practice of violations is established. The court also may order the creditor to pay your attorney's fees and costs.

If possible, hire a lawyer who is willing to accept the amount awarded to you by the court as the entire fee for representing you. Some lawyers may not take your case unless you agree to pay their fee — win or lose — or add to the court-awarded amount if they think it's too low.