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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 375384 times)
Pernette
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April 28, 2013, 09:50:48 PM
 #821

Wow!!
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April 28, 2013, 09:57:44 PM
 #822

Any advice for folks who've already invested in BFL? Any experience getting a refund etc?

 Mine without the worry of hardware.  (https://cex.io/r/0/bahamat/0/) |  News on DayZ Stand Alone  (http://www.dayzbuzz.com)
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April 28, 2013, 10:21:21 PM
 #823

Any advice for folks who've already invested in BFL? Any experience getting a refund etc?

As far as we can tell, every refund request they've received has been honored. So if you'd like your money back just ask them for it.

RoyalMiningCo: Pools retired. Was fun!
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April 28, 2013, 10:32:36 PM
 #824

I thought about ordering one of these my main issue is the wait time.


Has anyone taken into account the amount Bitcoins are and how much more you could have made when these went on sale. This company if they have this in Bitcoin that you paid for has made a mint off of you.

Lets say you paid for bit coin around Jan before the huge spike.

Then is was around $10USD a Bitcoin - so with that logic lets break down the products they are offering. Then how much you would have if you just sat on BTC and sold them today. These will be estimates and according to the markets avg.

5gh Miner Jan 10th order would have cost you 27.4BTC - at current markets that would = $3973 not $274

25gh Miner Jan 10th order would have cost you 124.9BTC -  at current markets that would = $18110 not $1249

50gh Miner Jan 10th order would have cost you 249.9 -  at current markets that would = $36234 not $2499



This is the main thing that bothers me. Not grant it, you could still get the product and make all that money back but they are sitting on a huge amount of money and have made way more off you. No one seems to mention or see this and it leaves me baffled


* side note, that current rate I used was today $145, if they had sells when it spiked to $200 or higher that would be much much more.


I do not think they are a scam, I just think doing a preorder of this nature is stupid.



^^ This!

Well hello everyone, I have a lot of things on my mind that I would like to share in this thread (related of course), but let me begin by introducing myself. Because of the anonymous nature of the Bitcoin community (exciting  Cheesy) it is only cool if we use pseudonyms. I am Erik.

This being my first post, I wont be talking too much I promise.

I got caught in by the Bitcoin frenzy a few days ago and by now I have done hours of extensive research on the subject. I must say I am quite excited by the whole idea, beginning with the potential of Bitcoin as a currency of the future and its anonymity, all the way to the possibility of actually capitalizing on its (currently) volatile and risky nature.

(now on the subject)

Butterfly Labs (aside from GPU mining tools) were the first dedicated bitcoin mining tools I encountered in my research. They gave me the impression of a well made product, about to make everything else useless (due to its impact on the global hashrate). I spent hours of calculating ROI if I were to buy their 50 GHS/s ASIC. I was seriously conflicted if it would be a good investment, given the fact that people have "already" started using them and they have already caused the huge increase in difficulty since around Jan 2013.

No doubt it would be profitable if I had one right now! However, I later realized that not only I can't have one until August (financial reasons),  but no one will because they havent even filled their pre-orders!! After a bit of research I was introduced more into the problem. This confused me a little and made me consider a few questions. Why haven't they shipped anything yet? Why have they been delaying it for soo long? What caused the almost exponential increase in difficulty since January? In fact, what really caused the mini-bubble the beginning of April?

I would just like to point out that I don't exactly have an opinion on BFL, and I am actually forming one as we speak. I liked the idea of having one of those and I would definitely choose BFL, but these new findings have made me skeptical.

A lot of people here have their own theories and one thing which really caught my eye is "BFL running their own ASICs". I am sure that this would hardly make sense if they were a reputed company which they supposedly are: selling their FPGA miners, promptly doing their refunds, etc. However, I find a strange coincidence here.

One could argue that the rapid increase in the hashing was caused by factors such as: increased interest due to more public attention, people investing more in newer mining hardware, etc. I believe that such a rapid increase was caused by something major. In addition to this, the BTC price significantly went up during this period, which is slightly contradictory. It is my understanding that increase in mining essentially acts like the Fed. Increasing the money supply should prevent hyperdeflation.

After reading that BFT accepted BTC for the pre-order of their ASICs, I realized that they might be behind the bubble. Just picture what a company with resources like them could do. They had the means to mine extensively, partially financed by this community (speaking of the payments done with CC, PayPal, wire-transfer). They already held extensive amounts of BTC (assuming that a large number of people also paid in BTC), in addition to probably investing themselves.

What if.. BFT (and Co) started buying BTC at such a huge rate, that they managed to move the markets significantly? This probably would have been enough to lure in less experienced investors who believed in making money off the volatility. What if they (BFT and Co) actually started a major sell off right at the time the price was about to plateau? This would have been more than enough to actually cause a panic sale, that would essentially crash the BTC (like it did).

I know it sounds a little bit crazy. I know it may even lack sense, mind you I am quite new to all of this.

However this would have left BFT and Co, assuming that they previously sat on a ton of BTCs, sitting on a HUGE pile of USD. A ponzi scheme would be like a silly joke compared to this.

What do you guys think?
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April 28, 2013, 11:04:41 PM
 #825

I was going to write a long post like this a while ago but wanted to hold of till it was indisputable. Now we are going into May with a working product but none for customers? Its time people start to realize its a real posibility.

The way that they just keep waving that carrot on a stick in front of their customers is not even funny anymore.
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April 28, 2013, 11:31:43 PM
 #826

Is bitcoinx affiliated with BFL? I was using their calculator when I moused over to their hardware listing: http://www.bitcoinx.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/

Apparently no Avalon units have shipped, yet the prices on BFL's units show the price increase/hash decrease as well as a new comment on all three products "shipping now"

...  Shocked
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April 28, 2013, 11:35:51 PM
 #827

They seem to spend a lot on ads, why not on bitcoinx? Who cares? Its too late to order anything, even if its not scam.
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April 28, 2013, 11:40:13 PM
 #828

Is bitcoinx affiliated with BFL? I was using their calculator when I moused over to their hardware listing: http://www.bitcoinx.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/

Apparently no Avalon units have shipped, yet the prices on BFL's units show the price increase/hash decrease as well as a new comment on all three products "shipping now"

...  Shocked

I suspect they are. Once you open their calculator, it immediately gives you the specs of their 50 GH/s ASIC..

Also, if you go to the BFL website, you will notice an updated photo of the the same model. Yesterday it had the same photo as the 25 GH/s one. Quite peculiar no?

I was going to write a long post like this a while ago but wanted to hold of till it was indisputable. Now we are going into May with a working product but none for customers? Its time people start to realize its a real posibility.

The way that they just keep waving that carrot on a stick in front of their customers is not even funny anymore.

I just realized its INSANELY long.. hope it was worth the reading time  Tongue
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April 28, 2013, 11:46:56 PM
 #829

At the end of the day, whether you believe BFL to be real or a scam, either way it's only speculation. At best, just an educated guess. Same goes for the whole BTC market. As as with trading fiat currency and stocks/bonds, never invest more than you're prepared to lose.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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April 28, 2013, 11:54:01 PM
 #830

Im curious of how it will all end. Does anyone know how you need to wait for BFL to make a refund? There will be a lot of disappointment in a couple of weeks, it seems.
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April 29, 2013, 12:04:56 AM
 #831

They seem to spend a lot on ads, why not on bitcoinx? Who cares? Its too late to order anything, even if its not scam.

They link directly to BFL order pages on this list: http://www.bitcoinx.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/

If affiliated (or run by an employee, investor etc), this is just as much of an advertisement as anything else they've run.
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April 29, 2013, 04:06:08 AM
 #832

  January spike was caused by delivered Avalon's asics.

I thought about ordering one of these my main issue is the wait time.


Has anyone taken into account the amount Bitcoins are and how much more you could have made when these went on sale. This company if they have this in Bitcoin that you paid for has made a mint off of you.

Lets say you paid for bit coin around Jan before the huge spike.

Then is was around $10USD a Bitcoin - so with that logic lets break down the products they are offering. Then how much you would have if you just sat on BTC and sold them today. These will be estimates and according to the markets avg.

5gh Miner Jan 10th order would have cost you 27.4BTC - at current markets that would = $3973 not $274

25gh Miner Jan 10th order would have cost you 124.9BTC -  at current markets that would = $18110 not $1249

50gh Miner Jan 10th order would have cost you 249.9 -  at current markets that would = $36234 not $2499



This is the main thing that bothers me. Not grant it, you could still get the product and make all that money back but they are sitting on a huge amount of money and have made way more off you. No one seems to mention or see this and it leaves me baffled


* side note, that current rate I used was today $145, if they had sells when it spiked to $200 or higher that would be much much more.


I do not think they are a scam, I just think doing a preorder of this nature is stupid.



^^ This!

Well hello everyone, I have a lot of things on my mind that I would like to share in this thread (related of course), but let me begin by introducing myself. Because of the anonymous nature of the Bitcoin community (exciting  Cheesy) it is only cool if we use pseudonyms. I am Erik.

This being my first post, I wont be talking too much I promise.

I got caught in by the Bitcoin frenzy a few days ago and by now I have done hours of extensive research on the subject. I must say I am quite excited by the whole idea, beginning with the potential of Bitcoin as a currency of the future and its anonymity, all the way to the possibility of actually capitalizing on its (currently) volatile and risky nature.

(now on the subject)

Butterfly Labs (aside from GPU mining tools) were the first dedicated bitcoin mining tools I encountered in my research. They gave me the impression of a well made product, about to make everything else useless (due to its impact on the global hashrate). I spent hours of calculating ROI if I were to buy their 50 GHS/s ASIC. I was seriously conflicted if it would be a good investment, given the fact that people have "already" started using them and they have already caused the huge increase in difficulty since around Jan 2013.

No doubt it would be profitable if I had one right now! However, I later realized that not only I can't have one until August (financial reasons),  but no one will because they havent even filled their pre-orders!! After a bit of research I was introduced more into the problem. This confused me a little and made me consider a few questions. Why haven't they shipped anything yet? Why have they been delaying it for soo long? What caused the almost exponential increase in difficulty since January? In fact, what really caused the mini-bubble the beginning of April?

I would just like to point out that I don't exactly have an opinion on BFL, and I am actually forming one as we speak. I liked the idea of having one of those and I would definitely choose BFL, but these new findings have made me skeptical.

A lot of people here have their own theories and one thing which really caught my eye is "BFL running their own ASICs". I am sure that this would hardly make sense if they were a reputed company which they supposedly are: selling their FPGA miners, promptly doing their refunds, etc. However, I find a strange coincidence here.

One could argue that the rapid increase in the hashing was caused by factors such as: increased interest due to more public attention, people investing more in newer mining hardware, etc. I believe that such a rapid increase was caused by something major. In addition to this, the BTC price significantly went up during this period, which is slightly contradictory. It is my understanding that increase in mining essentially acts like the Fed. Increasing the money supply should prevent hyperdeflation.

After reading that BFT accepted BTC for the pre-order of their ASICs, I realized that they might be behind the bubble. Just picture what a company with resources like them could do. They had the means to mine extensively, partially financed by this community (speaking of the payments done with CC, PayPal, wire-transfer). They already held extensive amounts of BTC (assuming that a large number of people also paid in BTC), in addition to probably investing themselves.

What if.. BFT (and Co) started buying BTC at such a huge rate, that they managed to move the markets significantly? This probably would have been enough to lure in less experienced investors who believed in making money off the volatility. What if they (BFT and Co) actually started a major sell off right at the time the price was about to plateau? This would have been more than enough to actually cause a panic sale, that would essentially crash the BTC (like it did).

I know it sounds a little bit crazy. I know it may even lack sense, mind you I am quite new to all of this.

However this would have left BFT and Co, assuming that they previously sat on a ton of BTCs, sitting on a HUGE pile of USD. A ponzi scheme would be like a silly joke compared to this.

What do you guys think?

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April 29, 2013, 04:09:53 AM
 #833

What about this guy? http://codinginmysleep.com/bfl-jalapeno-unboxing-and-demo/

He has one.
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April 29, 2013, 04:17:37 AM
 #834

Quote

(1) This does not mean BFL is not a ponzi scheme. Just because they built a product in no way vets the company's operations
(2) BFL has never demonstrated a working 25, 50, and 1500 GH/s unit
(3) They accepted millions of dollars in preorder money and have yet to ship any units to the general public in the queue
(4) No reliability testing has been done on these units
(5) BFL has not been audited and thus we don't know if they have been using their ASICs to mine until it's no longer profitable and then ship. (Double dipping)

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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April 29, 2013, 05:07:23 AM
 #835

(1) This does not mean BFL is not a ponzi scheme. Just because they built a product in no way vets the company's operations

False. If you knew anything about the development of hardware, specifically ASIC devices for Bitcoin mining, you would realize how utterly ridiculous this statement is.

Quote
(2) BFL has never demonstrated a working 25, 50, and 1500 GH/s unit

Your point being?

Quote
(3) They accepted millions of dollars in preorder money and have yet to ship any units to the general public in the queue

Completely false.

Quote
(4) No reliability testing has been done on these units

Also completely false.

Quote
(5) BFL has not been audited and thus we don't know if they have been using their ASICs to mine until it's no longer profitable and then ship. (Double dipping)

Also false, if for no other reason than: If BFL is doing as you say, why has the global hashrate not increased beyond any accountable figures?  Again, it's clear you have zero understanding of anything related to hardware mining, so please stop trying to insert yourself into the conversation when have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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April 29, 2013, 05:23:36 AM
 #836

Welcome back Josh. I was beginning to miss you

Quote
Also false, if for no other reason than: If BFL is doing as you say, why has the global hashrate not increased beyond any accountable figures?  Again, it's clear you have zero understanding of anything related to hardware mining, so please stop trying to insert yourself into the conversation when have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/

I like graphs. Don't you? a 60,000 GH/s increase in just six months.

Quote
Also completely false.

So when exactly did you have a working prototype to perform said testing? Before or after you had to dramatically change your power consumption specs?

Quote
(3) They accepted millions of dollars in preorder money and have yet to ship any units to the general public in the queue

Completely false

What percentage of preorders have you shipped? I'm willing to wager it is less than 5%. You know David isn't the general public nor is wired magazine.

Quote
(2) BFL has never demonstrated a working 25, 50, and 1500 GH/s unit

Your point being?

You've accepted preorders for a technology that can't exist with you current product queue. Unless couldhashers is lying about those 6 rigs. When exactly are you planning on shipping your pixie magic minirig? Before or after you get it under 20KW TDP?
Quote
(1) This does not mean BFL is not a ponzi scheme. Just because they built a product in no way vets the company's operations

False. If you knew anything about the development of hardware, specifically ASIC devices for Bitcoin mining, you would realize how utterly ridiculous this statement is.

I know more than I let on Josh http://www.edn.com/design/integrated-circuit-design/4313790/Making-ASIC-power-estimates-before-the-design. That's probably a good idea. It's a damn shame you guys didn't follow that advice. Maybe you shouldn't have designed an entire product catalog around a power window you never tested with an actual prototype.

Also I can still freely assert you dipped into preorder money to cover R&D costs. You say no, but those delays must have been seriously costly. Ponzi would be so proud.

But you know what, keep shipping review units and collecting preorder money. It must be a good business.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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April 29, 2013, 05:37:07 AM
 #837

I feel if AMD wanted to they could whip together a miner ASIC in a month that would blow everyone else away Wink
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April 29, 2013, 05:39:44 AM
 #838

That's why I really could care less about BFL. I just feel sad for the people who have been so terribly mistreated and have had to wait for so long through the delays. It isn't fair and they didn't deserve it.

As for Josh:


Love you buddy and good luck on the pixie magic

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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April 29, 2013, 05:40:32 AM
 #839

And this is why you're a complete dumbass who can't even find his ass with both hands.

Quote
Also false, if for no other reason than: If BFL is doing as you say, why has the global hashrate not increased beyond any accountable figures?  Again, it's clear you have zero understanding of anything related to hardware mining, so please stop trying to insert yourself into the conversation when have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/

I like graphs. Don't you? a 60,000 GH/s increase in just six months.

Huh, so where do you think those Avalons and ASICminer went?  To the sky?  Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending to be stupid?

Quote
Quote
Also completely false.

So when exactly did you have a working prototype to perform said testing? Before or after you had to dramatically change your power consumption specs?

Gosh, I wonder.  Could it be after?  Who would have thought?  Again, are you really that stupid or are you pretending to be stupid?

Quote
Quote
(3) They accepted millions of dollars in preorder money and have yet to ship any units to the general public in the queue

Completely false

What percentage of preorders have you shipped? I'm willing to wager it is less than 5%. You know David isn't the general public nor is wired magazine.

Customers have posted reviews.  It's not my fault you're too stupid to be able find (or more likely, able to read) them.  Don't blame other people for your failure to accomplish simple things in life, like due diligence.

Quote
You've accepted preorders for a technology that can't exist with you current product queue. Unless couldhashers is lying about those 6 rigs. When exactly are you planning on shipping your pixie magic minirig? Before or after you get it under 20KW TDP?

Oh gosh, I don't know... maybe by shipping multiple smaller units like we said we would weeks ago?  Are you really this stupid or are you pretending to be stupid?  Crap man, it's looking pretty grim.  I think you might *really* be this stupid.

Quote
I know more than I let on Josh http://www.edn.com/design/integrated-circuit-design/4313790/Making-ASIC-power-estimates-before-the-design. That's probably a good idea. It's a damn shame you guys didn't follow that advice. Maybe you shouldn't have designed an entire product catalog around a power window you never tested with an actual prototype.

You know more than you let on?  What do you know?  So far, you've shown you know two things:  Jack and Shit.  Jack left town about a week ago.  So what do you know?  

Quote
Also I can still freely assert you dipped into preorder money to cover R&D costs. You say no, but those delays must have been seriously costly. Ponzi would be so proud.

But you know what, keep shipping review units and collecting preorder money. It must be a good business.

Yeah, you can freely assert it all you want, it just makes you look like even more of an idiot every time you do.  But apparently you really are so stupid that you think repeating the same lie over and over makes you "smart!" So, I guess we have our answer, you really *are* that stupid.


If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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April 29, 2013, 05:44:12 AM
 #840

Quote
And this is why you're a complete dumbass who can't even find his ass with both hands.

Quote from: charleshoskinson on Today at 05:23:36 AM
Quote
Also false, if for no other reason than: If BFL is doing as you say, why has the global hashrate not increased beyond any accountable figures?  Again, it's clear you have zero understanding of anything related to hardware mining, so please stop trying to insert yourself into the conversation when have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/

I like graphs. Don't you? a 60,000 GH/s increase in just six months.

Huh, so where do you think those Avalons and ASICminer went?  To the sky?  Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending to be stupid?

Quote
Quote
Also completely false.

So when exactly did you have a working prototype to perform said testing? Before or after you had to dramatically change your power consumption specs?

Gosh, I wonder.  Could it be after?  Who would have thought?  Again, are you really that stupid or are you pretending to be stupid?

Quote
Quote
(3) They accepted millions of dollars in preorder money and have yet to ship any units to the general public in the queue

Completely false

What percentage of preorders have you shipped? I'm willing to wager it is less than 5%. You know David isn't the general public nor is wired magazine.

Customers have posted reviews.  It's not my fault you're too stupid to be able find (or more likely, able to read) them.  Don't blame other people for your failure to accomplish simple things in life, like due diligence.

Quote
You've accepted preorders for a technology that can't exist with you current product queue. Unless couldhashers is lying about those 6 rigs. When exactly are you planning on shipping your pixie magic minirig? Before or after you get it under 20KW TDP?

Oh gosh, I don't know... maybe by shipping multiple smaller units like we said we would weeks ago?  Are you really this stupid or are you pretending to be stupid?  Crap man, it's looking pretty grim.  I think you might *really* be this stupid.

Quote
I know more than I let on Josh http://www.edn.com/design/integrated-circuit-design/4313790/Making-ASIC-power-estimates-before-the-design. That's probably a good idea. It's a damn shame you guys didn't follow that advice. Maybe you shouldn't have designed an entire product catalog around a power window you never tested with an actual prototype.

You know more than you let on?  What do you know?  So far, you've shown you know two things:  Jack and Shit.  Jack left town about a week ago.  So what do you know? 

Quote
Also I can still freely assert you dipped into preorder money to cover R&D costs. You say no, but those delays must have been seriously costly. Ponzi would be so proud.

But you know what, keep shipping review units and collecting preorder money. It must be a good business.

Yeah, you can freely assert it all you want, it just makes you look like even more of an idiot every time you do.  But apparently you really are so stupid that you think repeating the same lie over and over makes you "smart!" So, I guess we have our answer, you really *are* that stupid.



You're a CEO. Act like one

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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