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Author Topic: Butterflylabs Huge SCAM  (Read 378639 times)
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May 16, 2013, 08:27:35 PM
 #1321

Yes, you have the right to say anything you want within the rules of these forums.  It does not matter whether or not your statements are posted in the New York Times or on these forums.  Should the preponderance of evidence show that your comments (proven false by delivery of product) caused harm to BFL, then under civil law BFL has the right to file a tort against you.  Would they?  Depends on their mood I guess.

This goes back to yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

Not the same thing at all and I won't even waste my time explaining why. You either get it or you don't.

A lawsuit from BFL would be the biggest oxymoron ever considering what they got coming.  Cheesy

for us folk that know business law. this is the greatest post EVER!!
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May 16, 2013, 08:45:31 PM
 #1322

I hope you forgive me on how I added my comment in yours It was quite a bit to process through. I believe it makes it easier for other to follow.

I embolden them. Also I go into detail of how it is a scam. It is the use of pre-orders until the investor customer refuses to wait any longer and demands a refund. That is a 0% interest loan for an average period of 3 to 4 month (PayPal limits time for a resolution process) however people that put it on their CC have to pay if they don't cover the ballance right away. I know you may have missed most of my previous posts here. (you could go back and check) However I will not hold it against you if you choose not to.

Where I have issue is you feel it is not intentional and that is why I suggested broadening your views. Delays are natural however to insinuate that its complete incompetence is also untrue.

BFL Josh/Inaba w/e his name is has been approached by knowledgeable people in the field that do this work for other manufactures and offered to help them with designs and also cautioned that the power figures are somewhat impossible. However it is my opinion that the low prices and the hubris expectations of power consumptions  were intentional to prevent competition.

That is my opinion and it maybe a stretch for you to accept. Here is hoping....

Nicely put. Thanks for taking the time to clarify how you feel. I just take issue with the statement "broaden yours" as you are telling me I should broaden my opinion?

It is ok, we don't know each other so we have no clue how much we have each read and absorbed on this subject. Please understand that I have kept up with the facts and made my decision to pre-order after I waited a good amount of time to collect the data I needed to feel comfortable enough with the risks.

As for your talking points, consider the below rebuttals:

Ever heard of a restocking fee? Did you know if you agree to purchase something that has not been made yet, and the sales receipt includes verbiage detailing a restocking fee, even if the item was never physically in stock at the local depot, or even if it was on back order at the manufacturing facility, legally they can still charge the fee if you request a refund... because in the order first, fulfill on X time frame model, the purchase monies are immediately used to secure your place in line at the manufacturer.

I know this for a fact because the company I used to work for had this policy... it is a bad policy but it is not like the customer was not told that their purchase was a manufacturer direct purchase... they are told and have to sign off that they understand we didn't stock 95% of the product and the moment we finalize paperwork, we order the item from the manufacturer. Not my policy, I hated it, but I watched so many get charged like that... and even the BBB couldn't do anything as the customer signed the contract. Glad I left there... they had another paragraph that stated all dates were estimates and subject to the manufacturers time frame and supply blah blah... let them get away with murder...

There was no additional information or fine print at the time I was purchasing and the email reciepts had no offering of information that I would have to wait 6 more months. I was told every update that the problem was soon to be corrected and deliveries were to ensue shortly. "Delivery was to occur in the week of"

The point is, whether BFL anticipated having to refund customers or not, it is not their fault if someone chose to use their credit line to secure their pre-order... that was the customer's decision... and to boot, I was unable to use any of my credit lines with purchase protection to order... I ended up using PayPal... and even they would not let me use a credit card... decided to just use available funds from cashing some coin in and 50% from my best friend to go in with me on this. The same goes for any other payments in fiat... you don't get interest back from a cancelled purchase even if the seller couldn't ship to you on time... you get the amount you paid and that's it... show me a retailer that refunds more than the purchase price because they ran out of stock or could not get stock in the time frame you desired? They might offer a gift card or something else Customer Service related... but not straight cash on top of your purchase price.

There is the grey area however how many times can you tell your landlord the rent will be late. It will come a time that reasonable expectation of needs must be met.




I agree it is not complete incompetence... but not everything is 100% in your control when you don't have feet on the ground in the foreign countries that are producing some of your parts. You can't control everything, as a prime example the first company producing the chips gave them a date before Chinese New Year... then subsequently screwed off and almost made Josh have to go sit in their office while they did the job... not something you plan to have to do when you are having millions of $s worth of silicon fabricated. While a good portion of it is due to lack of judgement, and not taking assistance when it was offered, some pieces of it just could not be avoided, like having to transport the remaining wafers to a new facility since the first one caused problems.

I agree with you here and as a responsible company that is not dependent on the pre-order monies would accept the loss of a truthful update with a reasonable confirm ship date as that would begin a torrent of refunds. This tends to strengthen my point a bit. Agree?



The only people I do feel real sympathy for are the average miners who spent all of their BTC minings on these, only to ask for a refund and be cashed at at about 1/7th the amount the total coin is now worth... only the miners though... if someone bought BTC then immediately used it for a miner, they got refunded the same amount of cash they put in. IDC if they could have held the coin and made a killing... their choice to do it that way.

Well ask Josh how he feels about people that believe in the bitcoin community. I believe he said and I quote "If you don't believe in BFL you don't believe in Bitcoin." - Micon


No hard feelings... but nothing in life is 100% the way people plan it to be... another example, I am on a multimillion dollar project right now launching a new manufacturing and warehousing operation on the east coast... and we just got set back a whole year because a drainage ditch sprouted some cattails in it... now the county calls it a wetlands preserve rofl... some 10,000+ feet away from the ACTUAL wetlands preserve, with nothing but high and dry grassy fields between them. Never saw that coming, no sir.

I hope everything works out and your very successful especially in these times. We need people succeeding and showing the way for other.
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May 16, 2013, 08:51:55 PM
 #1323

i will also jump in and request for RAW accounting info to be submitted to the courts for proof of claim should a libel suit come to light.

Could we see another Black/Madoff accounting correction occur?
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May 16, 2013, 08:57:09 PM
 #1324

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.
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May 16, 2013, 09:03:57 PM
 #1325

Should BFL pull through and deliver their products to the masses hence fullfilling their legal obligation in these commercial transactions, those that have been blasting BFL with SCAM this or SCAM without any basis in fact could then find themselves on the receiving end of a libel suit.

Im glad you did not go with an insult but instead you go with deflect. Its carrot and then stick, right?

Its called free speech. If I think its a scam, I have evry damn right to say I think its a scam. If I say I have definative proof of a scam and I write an article in the New York Times about it, that's way different. People posting their honest opinion on an internet forum (many not in the US remember) is so obviously a case of free speach your threat falls flat.

I see no reason to insult.  This isn't person, just business far as I am concerned.  I'm just stating what I see, no more no less.

Yes, you have the right to say anything you want within the rules of these forums.  It does not matter whether or not your statements are posted in the New York Times or on these forums.  Should the preponderance of evidence show that your comments (proven false by delivery of product) caused harm to BFL, then under civil law BFL has the right to file a tort against you.  Would they?  Depends on their mood I guess.

This goes back to yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire.
I believe he thinks you're someone from BFL trying to scare people with legal discourse. I am not in full agreement however it does follow their mode of operations IMHO
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May 16, 2013, 09:04:56 PM
 #1326

Please understand that I have kept up with the facts and made my decision to pre-order after I waited a good amount of time to collect the data I needed to feel comfortable enough with the risks.

If you really kept up with the facts and did your due diligence, you would find out that the President of Butterfly Labs, Sonny Vleisides, is a felon. He was convicted of running a mail fraud racket that, over six years, stole $20 million from the elderly and naive. These scams went by names like Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group and World Expert Fund. His business partner at the time, Dennis Emmet, is now in jail for MURDER. He shot a guy IN THE FACE after getting into an argument.

These are facts, not libel. Google his name and read the affidavit. Even if they are legitimately creating a product, look at his past business practices, who he associates himself with, and ask yourself seriously if they are worthy of your hard-earned money. This company has not delivered for a year and is run by a former con artist. Any newbies thinking about pre-ordering need to take this into consideration.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0
http://insidecostarica.com/dailynews/2005/may/01/nac04.htm
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May 16, 2013, 09:08:32 PM
 #1327

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.

How does this hold if the lawsuit was filed over seas or over state lines? Would this not be a greater concern if international laws were broken? 

Would Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas be in his jurisdiction for international complaints?
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May 16, 2013, 09:11:26 PM
 #1328

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.

How does this hold if the lawsuit was filed over seas or over state lines? Would this not be a greater concern if international laws were broken? 

Would Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas be in his jurisdiction for international complaints?

Jurisdiction is likely the place of BFL incorporation.
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May 16, 2013, 09:16:19 PM
 #1329

I agree with bassclef.  BFL is definitely worthy of the 'buyer beware' tag.  Hence the reason why my company has gone elsewhere.
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May 16, 2013, 09:20:06 PM
 #1330

Please understand that I have kept up with the facts and made my decision to pre-order after I waited a good amount of time to collect the data I needed to feel comfortable enough with the risks.

If you really kept up with the facts and did your due diligence, you would find out that the President of Butterfly Labs, Sonny Vleisides, is a felon. He was convicted of running a mail fraud racket that, over six years, stole $20 million from the elderly and naive. These scams went by names like Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group and World Expert Fund. His business partner at the time, Dennis Emmet, is now in jail for MURDER. He shot a guy IN THE FACE after getting into an argument.

These are facts, not libel. Google his name and read the affidavit. Even if they are legitimately creating a product, look at his past business practices, who he associates himself with, and ask yourself seriously if they are worthy of your hard-earned money. This company has not delivered for a year and is run by a former con artist. Any newbies thinking about pre-ordering need to take this into consideration.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0
http://insidecostarica.com/dailynews/2005/may/01/nac04.htm

Well actually Sonny Vleisides received a lesser charge of mail order fraud. I could be wrong as I am going through memory that a murder was done by someone like a co-company founder or business partner and legal processes were not able to be done on time or something to that degree. Or else it would have been a 300+ years in prison. The information is there. I need to read a post all the way through. duh

However the disturbing thing was he had a chance to explain things through the forum but he closed the thread citing he was being unfairly attacked by competitors.

Actually he has a probation stipulations that bar him from doing these kinds of business internationally. Maybe that is why josh is not fired yet due to poor PR. My opinion again oops
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May 16, 2013, 09:22:25 PM
 #1331

Instead of complaining about it, do something about it. 

If enough of you file complaints on unfair business practices to the point that Kansas takes action, the news article resulting from this action would pretty much do BFL in far as the BitCoin world is concerned.

My suggestion to any of you taking issue with BFL over your pre-order is to get in contact Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas, to file a consumer complaint.  http://ag.ks.gov/contact-us/file-a-complaint is where you can go to file one online.  Keep in mind that BFL is located in Johnson county when filling out the complaint.  You can also file with the Johnson Country Consumer Protection Division http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

There is a lot of legal grey that I think BFL keeps trying to wiggle around in with all of this pre-ordering.  They say all sales are final yet option #3 on their automated phone system is for refunds.  While I did not go down this part of their menu system, I do find it rather odd they'd contradict themselves in this manner.

All sales are final are not in the state of Kansas.  I do not know where they are getting this idea that the consumer is locked in, but they are not.  In Kansas under statute 50-627, it could be argued that BFL entered into an agreement that is excessively one sided not in favor of the consumer.  Pre-order a product with no specified date of delivery that the consumer is unable to cancel said transaction with full refund of money at any point.  The term "all sales are final" has a very narrow scope with a product actually being delivered to a consumer and a transaction being concluded.  It typically pertains to buyer's remorse or consumers trying to return their product for money after they have used it.

Restocking fees won't come into play in this scenario as majority of consumers that have ordered BFL product have yet to receive them.

Now as you have indicated should BFL indeed be using pre-order money in a deceptive manner for financial gain and can be proven then they'd run afoul of statute 50-626.

How does this hold if the lawsuit was filed over seas or over state lines? Would this not be a greater concern if international laws were broken? 

Would Derek Schmidt, Attorney General of Kansas be in his jurisdiction for international complaints?

Jurisdiction is likely the place of BFL incorporation.
and if they're not incorporated would that is an issue here?
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May 16, 2013, 09:29:39 PM
 #1332

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.
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May 16, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
 #1333

I would like to buy one with a credit card but the site has no way to that yet. Do you think they will let people buy one of their units with a credit card? If so when? 

Mining with: BE's,BE Cubes, K16's, AntMiners U1's and AntMiners S1's
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May 16, 2013, 09:55:05 PM
 #1334

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?
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May 16, 2013, 10:05:09 PM
 #1335

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

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May 16, 2013, 10:15:33 PM
 #1336

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

This is correct. Even if you and a friend that lives with you filed separate lawsuits, you would each have separate hearings.

You are able to do a group lawsuit (essentially what you do is have everyone's name as different plaintiffs) but I have no idea how that would work when dealing with people in other countries.

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May 16, 2013, 10:23:59 PM
 #1337

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

This is correct. Even if you and a friend that lives with you filed separate lawsuits, you would each have separate hearings.

You are able to do a group lawsuit (essentially what you do is have everyone's name as different plaintiffs) but I have no idea how that would work when dealing with people in other countries.

A group lawsuit is called "Class Action" and it is best done through consumer organizations that bring claims on behalf of large groups of consumers. If the number of consumers run into thousands then yes a "Class Action Suit" may apply.

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May 16, 2013, 10:31:46 PM
 #1338

It does not matter where the complaint originated from as long as the complaint against BFL has legal merit.  The matter would be dealt with in jurisdiction of Johnson County or at the state level depending on which office moved against the company as BFL has a physical presence here.  If they do not have a registered agent handling their legal matters, then BFL would be served at their physical location.

Place incorporated does not protect the company from legal matters filed against their physical location.  If their registered agent (often a lawyer) is located in a different state than the physical location then the company will have to find legal council in the jurisdiction of the physical location where the legal action was brought forth.

It seem you have a better understand of these procedures. What would happen if multiple unknown individuals served BFL from all over the globe? Would they combine them all in one suit?

No, it does not work that way.

This is correct. Even if you and a friend that lives with you filed separate lawsuits, you would each have separate hearings.

You are able to do a group lawsuit (essentially what you do is have everyone's name as different plaintiffs) but I have no idea how that would work when dealing with people in other countries.

A group lawsuit is called "Class Action" and it is best done through consumer organizations that bring claims on behalf of large groups of consumers. If the number of consumers run into thousands then yes a "Class Action Suit" may apply.

I was speaking (based on what the original poster was asking) on behalf of smaller groups. Ex. you get 5 people together to file.

Getting large numbers of people is very difficult. Not to mention, in many cases the company being sued won't have the funds to pay off many people, so smaller groups can be quite advantageous. It's really a gamble all on its own.

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May 16, 2013, 10:36:09 PM
 #1339

This is true ranlo, however this will present significant ethical challenges as Defendants can hold reverse auctions and everybody loses. Only the Lawyers win.

Mining with: BE's,BE Cubes, K16's, AntMiners U1's and AntMiners S1's
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May 16, 2013, 10:36:52 PM
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Should BFL pull through and deliver their products to the masses hence fullfilling their legal obligation in these commercial transactions, those that have been blasting BFL with SCAM this or SCAM without any basis in fact could then find themselves on the receiving end of a libel suit.

Bring it, bitch.
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