Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[zvs]

It seems strange to me that there are not other alternative to avalon and bfl, is so hard to put an asic chip... the entire board seems relative small and simple and probably exits already developer boards available from the chip companies
Just for curiosity, anyone know wicch chip bfl use? Maybe Altera?

LOL - you clearly don't quite know what an ASIC is. Altera are programmable chips - FPGA's. I programmed a lot of them when I worked for Beckman Coulter.

ASICs are custom made chips. They are very efficient because they will only run that one single application they are built for. You have to design the chip yourself, then pay a wafer manufacturer to make it for you, and they don't like to make stuff in small quantities.

Building an ASIC is not an easy task, and its not cheap either, which makes me very suspicious of the BFL Jalapeno....

I was told 500k-1m by someone that works at Coherent Logix...  does that sound about right?   I imagine Avalon was able to get it done much cheaper, seeing as how most of these components are made in china/taiwan

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[Peleus]

Yeah I'd say 1m+ to get your foot in the door.

[Pangia]

I am thinking that perhaps this BL thing needs to be "outed" sooner than later.  My reasoning is that if Bitcoin continues its upward ascension (and I firmly believe that it will) then the total "loss" to the BTC community will be much much higher and the message in the main stream media will be "Bitcoin Scam nets $1 billion, instead of $100 million".  This will not bode well for the overall reputation of this digital currency that's only in its nascent stages.  

Additionally, if they decide to "cash out" and head for the hills, then we would have a flood of coins come back into the system, resulting in the decline of the value of the coins (hopefully just a temporary price decline).

Initially I was concerned about of prosecutorial jurisdiction/agency, after all, if a victim resides in Europe/Africa/Asia but sends his/her funds to BL in the US, who would prosecute? As it turns out, a law enforcement entity in the location where the perpetrator is committing the larceny can commence an investigation and if probable cause exist, affect an arrest. So since BL is located in the City of Leawood Kansas, then the Kansas State Police, Kansas State Attorney General, City of Leawood Police, FBI or even the US Attorney's Office can commence an investigation and prosecute if warranted.

In NY we had a celebrity photographer who used his notoriety to con dozens of people out of money.  He resided in Manhattan and would put his apartment up for short term rentals on a variety of online rental sites.  Nearly everyone of his victims resided outside of the United States; they would wire transfer him the rent in advance + a security deposit. He was renting the same space to several victims for the exact same time period and would then tell them a fictitious story as to why they couldn't move in on the agreed upon date. He kept doing this over and over.  Occasionally, a victim would travel to the US and physically show up at the apartment building and of course he wouldn't be home (wouldn't answer the door or his phone).  The issue here was who could prosecute since all of the victims were from abroad and sent their funds whilst in their home country.  Simple answer --- the money ended up with the perpetrator in NYC (Manhattan) so the NYPD (10th Precinct) along with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office commenced an investigation and ultimately prosecuted him. He later pled guilty to Grand Larceny.

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/celeb_fotog_rent_scam_9aOYbuOxS8FqMYd962Qu0K

So the same thing can be done in Kansas IF BL is a huge scam.  But there is no certain way to determine that unless an investigation is commenced.

The other option is to bring media attention to BL. This can easily be facilitated, especially when the value of the theft (if in fact there is one) will be in the high millions. News Reporters would be jumping over each other to get the lead. The same would be true for law enforcement. Something of such magnitude (value of theft) would have law enforcement agencies competing to prosecute, especially if someone involved is a convicted Federal felon.

Ultimately, if BL isn't a huge scam, but are just an incompetent group of people, then BL might refund each customer there FUNDS (not their BTC's). Resulting in BL still profiting by utilizing the victim's funds to net the gain in BTC's over the past several months.  Then again, they might actually deliver on what they promised or they may not.

Please share your thoughts and let me know what you think might be the best approach: contact law enforcement or contact media?  

[Exocyst]

I hope you're all wrong. I really want the ASIC I ordered, and it doesn't seem anyone else wants to build them.

[spacegoat]

I am thinking that perhaps this BL thing needs to be "outed" sooner than later.  My reasoning is that if Bitcoin continues its upward ascension (and I firmly believe that it will) then the total "loss" to the BTC community will be much much higher and the message in the main stream media will be "Bitcoin Scam nets $1 billion, instead of $100 million".  This will not bode well for the overall reputation of this digital currency that's only in its nascent stages. 

Additionally, if they decide to "cash out" and head for the hills, then we would have a flood of coins come back into the system, resulting in the decline of the value of the coins (hopefully just a temporary price decline).

Initially I was concerned about of prosecutorial jurisdiction/agency, after all, if a victim resides in Europe/Africa/Asia but sends his/her funds to BL in the US, who would prosecute? As it turns out, a law enforcement entity in the location where the perpetrator is committing the larceny can commence an investigation and if probable cause exist, affect an arrest. So since BL is located in the City of Leawood Kansas, then the Kansas State Police, Kansas State Attorney General, City of Leawood Police, FBI or even the US Attorney's Office can commence an investigation and prosecute if warranted.

In NY we had a celebrity photographer who used his notoriety to con dozens of people out of money.  He resided in Manhattan and would put his apartment up for short term rentals on a variety of online rental sites.  Nearly everyone of his victims resided outside of the United States; they would wire transfer him the rent in advance + a security deposit. He was renting the same space to several victims for the exact same time period and would then tell them a fictitious story as to why they couldn't move in on the agreed upon date. He kept doing this over and over.  Occasionally, a victim would travel to the US and physically show up at the apartment building and of course he wouldn't be home (wouldn't answer the door or his phone).  The issue here was who could prosecute since all of the victims were from abroad and sent their funds whilst in their home country.  Simple answer --- the money ended up with the perpetrator in NYC (Manhattan) so the NYPD (10th Precinct) along with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office commenced an investigation and ultimately prosecuted him. He later plead guilty to Grand Larceny.

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/celeb_fotog_rent_scam_9aOYbuOxS8FqMYd962Qu0K

So the same thing can be done in Kansas IF BL is a huge scam.  But there is no certain way to determine that unless an investigation is commenced.

The other option is to bring media attention to BL. This can easily be facilitated, especially when the value of the theft (if in fact there is one) will be in the high millions. News Reporters would be jumping over each other to get the lead. The same would be true for law enforcement. Something of such magnitude (value of theft) would have law enforcement agencies competing to prosecute, especially if someone involved is a convicted Federal felon.

Ultimately, if BL isn't a huge scam, but are just an incompetent group of people, then BL might refund each customer there FUNDS (not their BTC's). Resulting in BL still profiting by utilizing the victim's funds to net the gain in BTC's over the past several months.  Then again, they might actually deliver on what they promised or they may not.

Please share your thoughts and let me know what you think might be the best approach: contact law enforcement or contact media? 

this is EXACTLY wht i've been thinking thank you for emitting sanity amongst complete stupocracies.  so stupid it needed a new word to be invented to describe it.  i can't believe there hasn't been media pressure or attention. its like still being advertised on this FORUM TOO!

so here's my theory, LITECOIN is going to be the new BITCOIN, I invested a few days ago and already tripled my money woot woot, cuz I had some great trades on btc-e - that and litecoin went from 0.70 to 2.24 in 2 days and its on the rise.. freakin nuts

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bifaw/diversify_into_ltc_hear_me_out/

[Decagrog]

It seems strange to me that there are not other alternative to avalon and bfl, is so hard to put an asic chip... the entire board seems relative small and simple and probably exits already developer boards available from the chip companies
Just for curiosity, anyone know wicch chip bfl use? Maybe Altera?

LOL - you clearly don't quite know what an ASIC is. Altera are programmable chips - FPGA's. I programmed a lot of them when I worked for Beckman Coulter.

ASICs are custom made chips. They are very efficient because they will only run that one single application they are built for. You have to design the chip yourself, then pay a wafer manufacturer to make it for you, and they don't like to make stuff in small quantities.

Building an ASIC is not an easy task, and its not cheap either, which makes me very suspicious of the BFL Jalapeno....

I was told 500k-1m by someone that works at Coherent Logix...  does that sound about right?   I imagine Avalon was able to get it done much cheaper, seeing as how most of these components are made in china/taiwan

Yes I admit I didn't know much about, now it make more sense...thanks for the clarification

[tesl4]

I´m interested in BF Jalapeno but... always delay the order

very suspicious

[dobatron81]

I´m interested in BF Jalapeno but... always delay the order

very suspicious

Order a BFL 30 Gh/s today, or take that money and buy BTC in MtGox (do both;) , either way it will be a minimal and possibly lucrative investment.  BFL, if you approach them in a non-threatening way, is quite responsive and civil.  I am hoping for the best for everyone, even those who requested returns.  Keep on mining!!

[fredtrader]

I as many others requested a refund, when I got no reply after 4 days (maybe too short a time) I opened a paypal dispute and they agreed to refund the money. I have doubts about the company for a couple reasons, their CEO has previously been involved in scams (which I only found out after I had pre ordered) and their offers seem somewhat too good to be true. I hope for all those that have ordered that they truly aren't scamming people but I personally decided it was too big a risk to take (even though it was only a Jalapeno order).

[prochobo]

Place your bets! http://betsofbitco.in/search?q=bfl

[SgtSpike]

Funny, if you DIDNT pre-order in bitcoin when they first announced pre-orders than you could buy their most expensive unit for what you would have paid then for the Jalepeno.

Erm, might want to double-check your math on that.

Jalepeno = $150.
BTC on 6/23/12 = $6.60 (or thereabouts)
Jalepeno = 22.72 BTC.

Today, 22.72 BTC = $2,583.18.  Not even close to a minirig ($30,000).

[mindtomatter]

Sorry, I meant their 60Ghz unit which costs 1299 - You could buy two of those if you opted not to pre-order the jalepeno in august. 

Ouch.  I really want to support the bitcoin economy but good lord was that an expensive mistake

Lesson:
NEVER PREORDER ANYTHING IN BITCOIN

[Minor Miner]

Sorry, I meant their 60Ghz unit which costs 1299 - You could buy two of those if you opted not to pre-order the jalepeno in august. 

Ouch.  I really want to support the bitcoin economy but good lord was that an expensive mistake

Lesson:
NEVER PREORDER ANYTHING IN BITCOIN

only true if it ONLY goes up (which I think it will).   The opposite would be true if it only went down.   hindsight is 20/20

[btbrae]

I wonder how much of the current bitcoin economy is held by the owners of BL. Did people pay $$$ for these or BTC? If they kept all preorder funds in BTC then doesn't that mean that they could be sitting on nearly a million BTC by now?

[mindtomatter]

Sorry, I meant their 60Ghz unit which costs 1299 - You could buy two of those if you opted not to pre-order the jalepeno in august. 

Ouch.  I really want to support the bitcoin economy but good lord was that an expensive mistake

Lesson:
NEVER PREORDER ANYTHING IN BITCOIN

only true if it ONLY goes up (which I think it will).   The opposite would be true if it only went down.   hindsight is 20/20

Right, but the currency is designed to be incredibly, fantastically deflationary if it gets any kind of meaningful adoption.  In short term moves we should still see crazy volatility, but if Bitcoin is to be adopted by even 1% of the population, we'll never see $10 again.   With those fundamentals, you have to not care about the ENORMOUS opportunity cost to spend money on a pre-order.   Better just to wait until you have the assurance of a released product that you know you want.  Do people even want ASICS now that there are going to be so many they'll effectly null the rewards through the exponential difficulty increase?

[InspiredEye]

Place your bets! http://betsofbitco.in/search?q=bfl

Bet placed, I'm betting on BFL shipping before July.

[creativex]

Place your bets! http://betsofbitco.in/search?q=bfl

Bet placed, I'm betting on BFL shipping before July.

Hey why not, July is only 13 months after they began taking money for the product.

[chowdan]

So has the BFL's ever shipped a product? I've seen forum posts of people talking about their jalapeno that they are using(even seen photos)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159700.0

[Minor Miner]

So has the BFL's ever shipped a product? I've seen forum posts of people talking about their jalapeno that they are using(even seen photos)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159700.0

He is offering to sell them WHEN he gets them (or move his pre-order to you).   The picture are NOT asics.

[legend]

I think they are scams, too. I hope for people who preordered them's sake that they are not.