Bitcoin Forum
May 05, 2024, 04:30:48 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 [172] 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 ... 227 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)  (Read 378926 times)
gmaxwell
Staff
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4158
Merit: 8382



View Profile WWW
December 01, 2015, 12:08:50 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 12:35:16 AM by gmaxwell
 #3421

You keep saying that it is opt-in however it is only opt-in for the sender not the reciever,
Not so, the merchant can simply ignore the transaction until it is confirmed; as they already do for all manner of unusual, nonstandard, unconfirmed input transactions, etc. or otherwise their acceptance of zero conf is no more secure than RBF (if it ever is...) ... and doing this is relatively harmless, because Opt-in RBF transactions do not need to suffer significant confirmation delays.

Quote
For me it is not even a question of greater expertise since it has also become about ideology relating to economics and politics, these are questions that most technical experts are not specifically trained to answer. I think that some of these more fundamental questions like the blocksize for instance are more concerned with politics and economics then computer science,
You are making a strong and unjustified assumption about the skills and background of people maintaining Bitcoin Core. I think you may be making the fallacy of assuming that a group excellent in a particular area must necessarily be weak in another specific area. The community, even the most active segment, is fairly large and diverse in many ways-- much more so then, for example, the persons working on XT*. Beyond the expected CS and distributed systems PHDs, the community includes people with expertise in mathematics, economics, financial markets, ... Peter Todd has a fine arts degree. Skepticism about the viability of the Bitcoin system absent effective meaningful block size limits can be found in peer reviewed academic publications in economics venues. Negative effects on mining fairness are both predicted by simulation, and borne out in field trials on test networks.

[*As a  vague yardstick, there are ~19 contributors to Bitcoin core with individually more commit count activity in the last six months then all contributors to XT had in both XT and Core combined. Commit count is a crappy metric and you can figure that is off by a large factor in either direction; but this isn't really a comparable; and this is in spite of non-stop attacks that make working on Bitcoin really demoralizing]

And beyond the expertise, we're speaking about a question where in the absence of perfect knowledge we conducted the experiment: We raise the soft blocksize target from 250k to 750k and saw tremendously negative effects: substantial declines in node count (in spite large growths in userbase; and to brag, somewhat heroic efforts to increase software performance), substantial increases in mining centralization, substantial increases in Bitcoin businesses relying on third party APIs rather than running nodes (hugely magnifying systemic risks). We've seen the result and it isn't pretty. And yet this information is ruthlessly attacked whenever it is pointed out-- I am routinely called a "bitcoin bear" even though I have a significant portion of my net worth tied up in it, simply for beveling in Bitcoin enough to be frank about the problems and limitations in it. Many people less convinced about Bitcoin's power and value than I and much more interested in the short term pump are unwilling to tolerate any discussion of challenges; and this creates a poisonous atmosphere which undermines the system's ability to heal and improve.

And today we are left at a point where the bandwidth consumption of an ordinary Bitcoin node just barely fits within the 350GB/mo transfer cap of a high end, "best available in most of the US" broadband service. We cannot know to what degree the load increase was causative, but none of the metrics had positive outcomes; and this is a reason to proceed only with the greatest care and consideration. Especially against a backdrop where Bitcoin's fundamental utility as a money are being attacked by efforts to regulate people's ability to transact and to blacklist coins; efforts that critically depend on the existence of centralized choke-points which scale beyond the system's scalability necessarily creates.

You're right though that the question is substantially political: A fully centralized system could easily handle gigabyte blocks with the work we've do to make megabyte blocks barely viable in a highly decentralized world. Such a system could also happily institute excess inflation, censor transactions, and other moves "for the good of the system" and "to assure widest adoption". If Bitcoin is to survive in the long run we just stand by the principles we believe in, and which make the system valuable in the first place. -- Even against substantial coercive pressure.  Otherwise the transparent system of autonomously enforced rules risks devolving into another politically controlled trust-based instrument of expedience that we see with legacy monetary instruments.

Quote
Furthermore when blocks do fill up we now already have child pays for parent for unsticking transactions without the negative consequences
We do not. CPFP has substantial complexities that prevent it from actually working on the network today; and using it has large overheads. It will be a good additional tool to have, but it does not replace RBF.

Quote
In regards to you saying that Gavin is not active in development I certainly do have a different perspective, considering
You can have a different perspective; but you cannot have your own facts. This is a question of objective fact. But you mistake my comment for an insult, it wasn't intended as one-- who am I to judge what someone else spends their time on? But rather an observation the it would have been surprising to see a contribution there.

Quote
which can only be done significantly by increasing the blocksize.
An action which you could only contemplate due to the work of myself and others who believe that the BIP101 approach would be significantly damaging. I think it's likely that it will be increased in the future, but in a way only that preserves Bitcoin's properties as a decenteralized P2P electronic cash, rather than disregarding them or undermining them.
1714926648
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714926648

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714926648
Reply with quote  #2

1714926648
Report to moderator
BitcoinCleanup.com: Learn why Bitcoin isn't bad for the environment
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1714926648
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714926648

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714926648
Reply with quote  #2

1714926648
Report to moderator
1714926648
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714926648

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714926648
Reply with quote  #2

1714926648
Report to moderator
1714926648
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714926648

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714926648
Reply with quote  #2

1714926648
Report to moderator
brg444 (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 12:36:13 AM
 #3422

About mining pools and the presumption that they help with decentralization of the network, maybe it's time to re-consider these assumptions


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
hdbuck
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002



View Profile
December 01, 2015, 12:37:26 AM
 #3423

An action which you could only contemplate due to the work of myself and others who believe that the BIP101 approach would be significantly damaging. I think it's likely that it will be increased in the future, but in a way that preserves Bitcoin's properties as a decenteralized P2P electronic cash, rather than disregarding them or undermining them.

As per Satoshi's "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System": P2P is a 'prerequisite' for the system to 'enable' electronic cash.
It does not work the other way around.

But these spammers dont even care about decentralization, so boring.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 12:45:06 AM
 #3424

https://blockchain.info/pools

slush throwing his weight around to prop up his BearSwamp buddies  Roll Eyes

hdbuck
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002



View Profile
December 01, 2015, 12:49:43 AM
 #3425

https://blockchain.info/pools

slush throwing his weight around to prop up his BearSwamp buddies  Roll Eyes

price is rising too much?
brg444 (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:23:03 AM
 #3426

Whatever happened to this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3uwpvh/the_real_reason_peter_r_talk_was_refused_from_his/cxik7cd

He always sounded somewhat butthurt by the work of Core devs but it seems he's fully embracing the dark side nowadays. How does one lose touch with reality so severely?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:25:34 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 01:36:01 AM by marcus_of_augustus
 #3427

https://blockchain.info/pools

slush throwing his weight around to prop up his BearSwamp buddies  Roll Eyes

price is rising too much?

seems coincidental that the last "Big Blockers" storms were whipped up when price rises were getting a head of steam also ... but who knows?

The BearSwamp is net short, by definition, they are a bitcoin deposit institution, and they know that every time price rises people remove large quantities of bitcoin from exchange deposits for safe-holding ... and one day if they are unable to meet those floods of withdraw requests into a wall of rising prices, well it is gonna be a bad day to be a BearSwamp customer, investor or employee. Btw, is Mike Hearn still doing the bitcoin holding audits for the BitSwamp?

ArticMine
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050


Monero Core Team


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:27:20 AM
 #3428

...

As per Satoshi's "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System": P2P is a 'prerequisite' for the system to 'enable' electronic cash.
It does not work the other way around.

But these spammers dont even care about decentralization, so boring.

The decentralization argument is bogus since it ignores Nielsen's law, Moore's law etc. http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/ 1MB in 2008 when Bitcoin was first announced is actually equivalent to 17 MB today. (50% compounded per year for 7 years).

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4592
Merit: 1276


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:33:16 AM
 #3429


Sweet!  I've been waiting years for a reason to refer to them as 'Bitstump'.  I always thought it would happen when they stole everyone's coins (vs. just having a little security hic-up which doubtlessly saved them a fortune on taxes.)  Switching to a stillborn hostile blockchain fork (and likely tainting all BTC which their victims held in their custody) should do the trick.

I never was a customer of Bitstump and never had any intention of being one, but if I had been I would get my BTC away from them while the getting is good (as I happened to have done with Mt. Gox thank God.)


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
brg444 (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:34:33 AM
 #3430

...

As per Satoshi's "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System": P2P is a 'prerequisite' for the system to 'enable' electronic cash.
It does not work the other way around.

But these spammers dont even care about decentralization, so boring.

The decentralization argument is bogus since it ignores Nielsen's law, Moore's law etc. http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/ 1MB in 2008 when Bitcoin was first announced is actually equivalent to 17 MB today. (50% compounded per year for 7 years).

"the decentralization argument is bogus since it ignores bogus laws observations"

derppp

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:34:41 AM
 #3431

...

As per Satoshi's "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System": P2P is a 'prerequisite' for the system to 'enable' electronic cash.
It does not work the other way around.

But these spammers dont even care about decentralization, so boring.

The decentralization argument is bogus since it ignores Nielsen's law, Moore's law etc. http://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/ 1MB in 2008 when Bitcoin was first announced is actually equivalent to 17 MB today. (50% compounded per year for 7 years).

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.

The 1MB limit was put in place in 2010, not 2008. Actual bitcoin network upload speed (the real bottleneck) measurements show upload bandwidth for nodes at edge of network is growing at closer to 17-25%. (This disregards data caps for total bandwidth available also).

iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
December 01, 2015, 01:43:47 AM
 #3432

Whatever happened to this guy: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3uwpvh/the_real_reason_peter_r_talk_was_refused_from_his/cxik7cd

He always sounded somewhat butthurt by the work of Core devs but it seems he's fully embracing the dark side nowadays. How does one lose touch with reality so severely?

Justus is mad the Bitcoin airplane isn't being chopped up and restructured in mid-flight according to his whims.

He has an interesting idea for an experiment which may create an effective market for blocksize, etc. but insists his altcoin scheme be imposed upon Bitcoin, rather than the common-sense approach of forking off and launching independently.

He's more of a cranky 'zomg privatize the garbage trucks right fucking now' libertarian than a True Bitcoiner cypherpunk; he doesn't grok Satoshi's Vision nor the implications of its nigh-impervious socioeconomic majority.

The boy has good instincts (EG "if you aren't building System D you are wasting your time"), but his biggest problems are the Peter Principle and Dunning-Kruger effect.  Having so much in common, of course Frap.doc and he get along splendidly!   Tongue


██████████
█████████████████
██████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████████
████
████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
████████████████████████████
██████
███████████████████████████
██████
██████████████████████████
█████
███████████████████████████
█████████████
██████████████
████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
██████████████████████
█████████████████
██████████

Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
ArticMine
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050


Monero Core Team


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 01:59:36 AM
 #3433

...

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.

The 1MB limit was put in place in 2010, not 2008. Actual bitcoin network upload speed (the real bottleneck) measurements show upload bandwidth for nodes at edge of network is growing at closer to 17-25%. (This disregards data caps for total bandwidth available also).

So you have made a case for 8 MB rather than 1 MB. As for data caps I currently have a residential Internet connection with no data cap. I got this a little over a year ago when it was first offered. When Bitcoin was first released it had an effective 32 MB blocksize limit.

On a related note. One of the negative impacts of the 1 MB limit has been to encourage vertical intergration of ASIC production and mining in China. A higher limit would have encouraged the export oF ASIC hardware from China since  China itself is an edge case for Internet bandwith and latency because of the great firewall of China.

There are valid arguments against BIP 101 but decentralization is not one of them.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:17:07 AM
 #3434

...

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.

The 1MB limit was put in place in 2010, not 2008. Actual bitcoin network upload speed (the real bottleneck) measurements show upload bandwidth for nodes at edge of network is growing at closer to 17-25%. (This disregards data caps for total bandwidth available also).

So you have made a case for 8 MB rather than 1 MB.

Check your math ... at the top-end 25%, 1.25^5 * 1MB = 3MB

Are you intentionally high-balling or your figures just always happily err on your side of the argument? (2008 =/= 2010, 50%=/=25%, 8MB=/=3MB, etc, etc).

The rest of your non-arguments about your residential connection is one ad-hoc data point and the stuff about chinese vertical integration of ASIC (lolwtf?) is simply pure speculation. Decentralisation will be seriously challenged by bigger blocks, it is already and the data points to that not getting any better any time soon.

brg444 (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:23:39 AM
 #3435

One of the negative impacts of the 1 MB limit has been to encourage vertical intergration of ASIC production and mining in China. A higher limit would have encouraged the export oF ASIC hardware from China since  China itself is an edge case for Internet bandwith and latency because of the great firewall of China.

Did I read that wrong  Huh

How does that follow again?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
ArticMine
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050


Monero Core Team


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:31:40 AM
 #3436

I am using the 50% figure for bandwidth from the reference I provided. I do not know where the lower 25% figure comes from.

With respect to the great firewall of China affecting Internet latency, this is no secret to anyone who has actually researched Bitcoin mining. As to my Internet connection I actually live in a smaller centre, in a larger centre in the same province I could get 1 Gbit/s download and upload http://urbanfibre.ca/ rather than the 50 Mbit/s I get for approximately the same price.


Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
brg444 (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:37:24 AM
 #3437

I am using the 50% figure for bandwidth from the reference I provided. I do not know where the lower 25% figure comes from.

With respect to the great firewall of China affecting Internet latency, this is no secret to anyone who has actually researched Bitcoin mining. As to my Internet connection I actually live in a smaller centre, in a larger centre in the same province I could get 1 Gbit/s download and upload http://urbanfibre.ca/ rather than the 50 Mbit/s I get for approximately the same price.



Yes. It's this bit I can't quite process

Quote
A higher limit would have encouraged the export oF ASIC hardware from China

In regards to the internet connection discussion, reality check:


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
ArticMine
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050


Monero Core Team


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:39:01 AM
 #3438

One of the negative impacts of the 1 MB limit has been to encourage vertical intergration of ASIC production and mining in China. A higher limit would have encouraged the export oF ASIC hardware from China since  China itself is an edge case for Internet bandwith and latency because of the great firewall of China.

Did I read that wrong  Huh

How does that follow again?

It happens that China is the cheapest place to make Bitcoin ASICs but also has a lousy Internet connection to the rest of the world. If one increases the blocksize this puts miners in China at a disadvantage. It leads to decentralization because there is now a strong incentive to sell and export the ASIC hardware rather than for the manufacturer to just operate the ASIC hardware themselves creating vertical intergration.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
klondike_bar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2128
Merit: 1005

ASIC Wannabe


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:46:42 AM
 #3439


I would have serious doubts that bitstamp even runs one single full node of their own ... probably outsourced.

you *seriously* beleive that a major bitcoin exchange does not operate thier own node? Something that can be achieved for <$100 with a standalone device and uses <64GB of storage?


get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?

24" PCI-E cables with 16AWG wires and stripped ends - great for server PSU mods, best prices https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563461
No longer a wannabe - now an ASIC owner!
brg444 (OP)
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
December 01, 2015, 02:47:04 AM
 #3440

One of the negative impacts of the 1 MB limit has been to encourage vertical intergration of ASIC production and mining in China. A higher limit would have encouraged the export oF ASIC hardware from China since  China itself is an edge case for Internet bandwith and latency because of the great firewall of China.

Did I read that wrong  Huh

How does that follow again?

It happens that China is the cheapest place to make Bitcoin ASICs but also has a lousy Internet connection to the rest of the world. If one increases the blocksize this puts miners in China at a disadvantage. It leads to decentralization because there is now a strong incentive to sell and export the ASIC hardware rather than for the manufacturer to just operate the ASIC hardware themselves creating vertical intergration.

I'm sorry I don't see it.

Seeing as China more or less controls 50% of the hashing power they could actually be at an advantage against more dispersed western miners.

Such a move would likely see them ramp up ASIC production.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Pages: « 1 ... 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 [172] 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 ... 227 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!