Bitcoin-Central, first exchange licensed to operate with a bank. This is HUGE

[MPOE-PR]

Is that why it is effectively backed by fiat?  Or why the only community to really embrace it is absolutely plagued by scams and baffling incompetence?

It's new, give it some time will you? Bitcoin will be around for longer than banks have, in some form or another. You presume to pass judgment based on its first coupla years of history? Nonsense. This is how new things always work, they attract the incompetent/scummy first. How do you think the West looked in 1860? Full of intelligent, well spoken competent blacksmiths and whatnot?

Back to the initial point, isn't part of the entire mythos of bitcoin getting away from federal regulation and banks?  If you are just going to have your bitcoins processed through a bank that then converts them to fiat money, you are just taking a worthless middle step.

A larger part of the Bitcoin mythos is diversity and universality. Some people wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole, exactly for the reasons you're quoting. Some others would be very happy to hear about it, as you've seen so far in this very thread. There's nothing wrong with this after all, diversity is both a good thing and the unavoidable result of non-centralization.

(And if you're curious to see further discussion of this political divide, maybe check out The Politics of Bitcoin.)

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[420]

So the other side of the (bit)coin is that the banksters and the eurocrats will know how many bitcoins you have in there, how do you trade them (capital gains? repent!) and above all they will be enabled to lock your bitcoin-backed credit card if you end in some black list of them.
Thanks, but no thanks.
After all these efforts and complications to get out from the banksters' matrix, it is ironic to get back at square 1.

Very good point.

No, it's not a good point.

Integrating Bitcoin with the normal financial world is not "going back to square 1". In all cases, you have the option, once in Bitcoin, to be apart from that world. The integration is simply an inevitable (and important) step to help the rest of the world climb on to our superior system. Every integration between Bitcoin and the old systems brings those old systems closer to death, because once attached, Bitcon begins to siphon off economic activity.

It would only be "going back to square 1" if, somehow, were were now all forced to use this French exchange and comply with banking laws there. That would be bad, but that is impossible if you understand how Bitcoin works.

Integrate, integrate, integrate, and Bitcoin will succeed, because it is superior.

+1
Boo-YA

So two months seems to be the 'deadline' for seeing how this integration works out

If they need an ID for US citizens to make an account I'm NOT in.

[davout]

Bitcoin-Central currently operates a BTC/EUR market and a BTC/GBP market (and still has the BTC/USD market showing on the site, without support for offers currently).  Does this mean GBP, USD and any other funds will be held at Credit Mutuel as well?

As you probably guessed these markets will have to be dropped.
It's not impossible that in the future we can offer the same services in GBP through Aqoba, but right it's not the case.
It's not really a problem, we're preparing another really good announcement about how we're going to service the US and UK within our regulation framework.

• Our user's accounts will be protected by the "Garantie des dépôts" which is the French equivalent of the American FDIC

Presumably this protection applies to just the EUR balances for each Bitcoin-Central account?[/list]

Yes, absolutely.

Earlier in the thread I had asked this question...
I've been reading through... and perhaps i missed a post somewhere for some reason...
I am still however looking for some clarification...

 "you are in fact NOT running a bank... correct?"

You are correct.

[Lethn]

You guys should see if you can't watch the Bank of Dave documentary, you have to deal with a lot of loopholes etc. when setting up anything like a bank in our countries because the bank owners are of course part of a special club.

[420]

You guys should see if you can't watch the Bank of Dave documentary, you have to deal with a lot of loopholes etc. when setting up anything like a bank in our countries because the bank owners are of course part of a special club.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fIGZOe-Oa0

[benjamindees]

So, to recap:

• Not a bank.  Not a PSP.  "Partnered with a PSP."
• Bitcoins still not regulated.  Services that hold and transmit fiat money for others regulated.  Just as before.
• Bitcoins not insured.
• Still supporting US and UK users, only now without any USD/GBP exchange.

Ironically, your first act after becoming "licensed" is to make a public announcement insinuating that you are a "bank" and that Bitcoins are regulated and insured.  None of which, apparently, is true.

What marvelous value licensing thus brings to the Bitcoin community!  The value of marketing bullshit under color of law!

Of course, as demonstrated by this thread, none of this makes the least bit of difference to the uncritical legalists in the Bitcoin community.  All you have to do to gain their unwavering trust and support, apparently, is to say magical words like "regulated," "legal," "institution," "funds," and "insured" enough times to cause their higher faculties to shut down due to authoritative goodness overload, and they begin signing up for your service and handing over all their Bitcoins.

Ah well, regardless, good luck in whatever it is you are attempting to accomplish, I suppose.  Perhaps it will provide some value to someone.

[davout]

Ironically, your first act after becoming "licensed" is to make a public announcement insinuating that you are a "bank" and that Bitcoins are regulated and insured.  None of which, apparently, is true.

We never said we were a bank, we said that we're allowed to do a good part of what a bank does.
We're the first to actually be allowed to hold fiat on behalf of third-parties, if it sounds like marketing talk to you maybe you should re-read the threads about MtGox v. CIC.

What marvelous value licensing thus brings to the Bitcoin community!  The value of marketing bullshit under color of law!

Interfacing properly the current financial system in a solid way has value to me.
Giving businesses wishing to accept Bitcoin the opportunity to partner with a regulated entity has value to me.
Offering a service where users get both their own IBAN and Bitcoin address within the context of a Bitcoin-aware regulated institution has value to me.

If you don't see value here too bad, just don't use us. We're an option, not an obligation. We won't force anyone. We won't try to bash our European competition using this.

We offer. You take, you don't take. Your call.

Of course, as demonstrated by this thread, none of this makes the least bit of difference to the uncritical legalists in the Bitcoin community.  All you have to do to gain their unwavering trust and support, apparently, is to say magical words like "regulated," "legal," "institution," "funds," and "insured" enough times to cause their higher faculties to shut down due to authoritative goodness overload, and they begin signing up for your service and handing over all their Bitcoins.

No, doing your homework is sufficient. Go do yours, read about this legal case that was settled in France in 2011. All the info is here.
Then come back and we'll talk

Ah well, regardless, good luck in whatever it is you are attempting to accomplish, I suppose.  Perhaps it will provide some value to someone.

Thank you !
We respect all opinions, but as stated in the OP, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Peace.

[Herbert]

This is epic news!

For those of you (and I know you are not insignificant in number here) who think of Bitcoin as a weapon to be used in the war against the establishment I can see that Bitcoin-Central's move may be seen as fraternising with the enemy.  I which case I can see that this is not a service for you.

However, for the rest of us it's a means of potentially integrating Bitcoin more into the normal lives of normal people and in terms of more widespread adoption I can't see (if it really does survive the potential attacks that are being pointed out) that being a bad thing.  To the contrary it will be doing a lot to broaden the userbase and consequently strengthen the project - and we all benefit from that regardless of whether we choose to use the service ourselves.

+1

[johnyj]

Just showed how bank concept is still prevail

[grondilu]

I don't understand people who dismiss this news.  I mean, assuming you did not get completely out of the banking system once you acquired your first bitcoins, of course a bitcoin-friendly bank is a great news.

Between a bank that is not bitcoin friendly (or not even bitcoin-aware), and a bank that is, the second one sure is a better place where to have a bank account.  And usually people do indeed have a bank account, because unless you live on an island and have no social/economic life whatsoever, having a bank account is still useful nowadays.

My only hope now is that the initiative from Paymium and Bitcoin central will inspire other banks worldwide to do the same thing.

[Danijel Habek]

I thought flexcoin was the world's first Bitcoin bank
http://www.flexcoin.com/

In that light, everyone of us is a bank...
Still, this is what differentiate Bitcoin-Central and it's companies and Flexcoin: (from Flexcoin site)
"Legal Notice: We are not a true bank that accepts USD or any national currency, only bitcoins which by their nature are not regulated, we're not FDIC insured or regulated by any government entity."

I wish Bitcoin-Central, Paymium and you guys behind it many more victories in the future. Keep doing what you're doing, and let us know once you've done it! THANKS!

[davout]

I wish Bitcoin-Central, Paymium and you guys behind it many more victories in the future. Keep doing what you're doing, and let us know once you've done it! THANKS!

Thanks! I can already tell you that there is more to come in the next couple of days

[Mike Hearn]

The reason some people are querying that you allow US customers is FATCA. It isn't correct that you aren't subject to US regulations. Yes, obviously, in a reasonable and just world that would be the case, however the US is trying to change that as hard as possible as it appears that they are succeeding, FATCA implementation is proceeding at the moment - though it's not yet in force.

FATCA forces non-US financial institutions to follow US laws in two ways. Firstly, they are busy signing agreements with different governments that will mean financial institutions are forced to provide customer data to the IRS. These are called "inter-governmental agreements", and yes France is signing one:

  http://www.stepjournal.org/journal_archive/2012/step_journal_june_2012/fatca_in_the_frame.aspx

The second way is far nastier and more insidious. They are planning to impose a recursive "passthru" 30% withholding tax. That means if you do business with the USA you must follow US law and if you don't, your US assets will be taxed at 30% (essentially bankrupting you or making you uncompetitive). But any business that comes into line because of that must also impose the 30% tax on any other financial institution they deal with, even if that institution does not interact with the US in any way shape or form! Because the financial system is a fully connected graph, this essentially means that US law spreads through it like an infection and eventually every financial institution will be forced to comply or face crippling sanctions from other financial institutions they interact with. This happens even in cases where US law conflicts with local law.

Dave, as you're the one exposed to this stuff, please make super sure you have fully researched this topic. The US will force you to follow its rules whether you like it or not and the French government will not save you - this is not a paranoid hypothetical but a phenomenon that is already happening. Your best bet is to do what all other financial institutions are doing and deny access to "US persons"  (citizens, residents and people who have held a green card in the last 10 years, iirc). This doesn't exempt you from FATCA but it minimizes the amount of paperwork and reporting to the IRS you'll have to do.

[sturle]

I'm not familiar with European banks, so could someone please explain the implications of being able to get an account here. I don't quite get what SEPA is or what the big deal of having IBAN numbers is.

Anyone in Europe (the civilized part) can transfer Euro to you for free or minimal charge.  You can do the same the other way.  SEPA transfers are quite fast.  The regulations say maximum D+1 (banking days), and in my experience same day transfer is quite common if you send early.  D is either the day you issue the transfer, if you do it before an afternoon deadline published by your bank, or the first bank day afterwards.

SEPA bank transfers are not harmed by weird USAnian regulations which forbid you to send money where you want (e.g. to companies with relations to Cuba).  Some bank I tried for one day refused to send money to Intersango because of some issues with an USA based intermediary bank, and I guess you must have a lot of these problems if you are trading all over the world.  (I filed a complaint to my national regulators.  The bank called me the day after with a lot of excuses and sent me a compensation because they hadn't specified the restrictions imposed by the intermediate bank in their terms of service.  Tried the bank once due to free international transfers, but I would rather pay a fee than cope with unreliable service.)

[Come-from-Beyond]

I don't understand people who dismiss this news.

Half-measures == Half-reached goals.

[paulie_w]

i hope you guys are ready for the hackers

[grondilu]

Half-measures == Half-reached goals.

When you want to buy something in a grocery store that does not accept bitcoin and does not even know what it is, what do your "full measures" consist of, exactly??   Forcing the marchand to accept your bitcoins anyway?  With a gun or something?

This is silly.   Bitcoin is about monetary freedom so if you like the idea you must accept that a lot of people will NOT know about your currency and/or will NOT accept it.   Hence it makes sense to have bridges between different currencies.   A bitcoin-friendly bank would be a very efficient way of accomplishing this.

[Liquid]

[davout]

i hope you guys are ready for the hackers

We're operating since 2010, but thanks for the insight.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Half-measures == Half-reached goals.

When you want to buy something in a grocery store that does not accept bitcoin and does not even know what it is, what do your "full measures" consist of, exactly??   Forcing the marchand to accept your bitcoins anyway?  With a gun or something?

This is silly.   Bitcoin is about monetary freedom so if you like the idea you must accept that a lot of people will NOT know about your currency and/or will NOT accept it.   Hence it makes sense to have bridges between different currencies.   A bitcoin-friendly bank would be a very efficient way of accomplishing this.

In a grocery store I pay with dollars coz noone accepts bitcoins. In 20 years the situation will be the same. Because some guys made a bridge between dollars and bitcoins. Because they hid a wallet with coins in a bank vault and gave ppl paper money. Because they made Bitcoin an instrument to store wealth.