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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan  (Read 99275 times)
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January 16, 2013, 11:52:12 AM
 #101

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-12.html#post10590

Quote from: grnbrg
Depends on your perspective... BFL has ~12,000 chips coming that will put out 7.5 GHash each, for a total of 90,000 GHash. The first week of BFL's shipments will equal Avalon's first batch. Unless your BFL order was paid for in June, Avalon doubling the hashrate won't mean that much.

But whatever. I'm content with BFL's performance for the most part. Ask me in 2 or 3 months how the various manufacturers have done. 

12,000 chips @ $1,300 each = $15.6M in pre-order monies

this is not science.  This is 1 post on the BFL forums.


seriously ... how you pretend have credibility if you have no idea what you're talking about?

Every Single SC ($1,300) has 8 chips

(12,000/8)@ $1,300 each = 1.95M

more easy

Jalapeno has one chip

149*12000=1.79M

Sorry for my bad english Wink
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January 16, 2013, 11:55:17 AM
 #102

would be quite ingenious to get customers to pay in BTC in june at $7 (or woteva) and then when BTC is $14 refund due to no product.
Ofcourse you would be refunding in USD, so company X makes $7/BTC for doing nothing.

why the hell is no one doing that ?

hmm Perhaps I shall start producing ASIC's... hopefully my maths is correct  Grin

 

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January 16, 2013, 11:57:58 AM
 #103

You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
What if BFL is a scam? A scam worth 1/4 of the total bitcoin market cap? Wow... That may easily become the end of bitcoin?!


Scam or no scam... it will not be the end of Bitcoin... If it is a scam perhaps it will be the beginning of people paying attention to company fundamentals before shipping off a bunch a bitcoins to the unknown...

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January 16, 2013, 02:41:48 PM
 #104


Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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January 16, 2013, 03:37:03 PM
 #105

would be quite ingenious to get customers to pay in BTC in june at $7 (or woteva) and then when BTC is $14 refund due to no product.
Ofcourse you would be refunding in USD, so company X makes $7/BTC for doing nothing.

why the hell is no one doing that ?

hmm Perhaps I shall start producing ASIC's... hopefully my maths is correct  Grin


Your argument may work for Tom's ASIC company, but not in this case. All the bitcoins were converted to dollars via BitPay and are currently all are on deposit in some bank. The best one could claim is that if all the pre-order monies are returned via the reverse process, BFL would have earned interest on ~$2M.



Note Joe didn't outright state that he's lying, perhaps to protect his brand. I, too, have read and own his book, and noticed the micro tell when the video was first linked and before discussion was offered on it, but opted to only register the information oppose to commenting on it like I'm now doing here.

There's marshmallows at both camps: It's a scam; BFL is a viable entity, albeit stumbles for opting to be pursue uncharted territory. Unfortunately, the marshmallows taste the same in both camps, so one has to choose witch camp they want to be seen in and whom they desire to associate themselves with.

Given just a little more time, we hope to learn if Schroeder's Chicken's feathers were ruffled in Pandora's box of fans.
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January 16, 2013, 04:02:34 PM
 #106

would be quite ingenious to get customers to pay in BTC in june at $7 (or woteva) and then when BTC is $14 refund due to no product.
Ofcourse you would be refunding in USD, so company X makes $7/BTC for doing nothing.

why the hell is no one doing that ?

hmm Perhaps I shall start producing ASIC's... hopefully my maths is correct  Grin

 

What a dumb, and repeatedly proven wrong argument.

If this was true, and this was the plan at BFL the whole time......

Then they are mathematical geniuses! Sign me up for the speculation emails!
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January 16, 2013, 05:23:12 PM
 #107

Hey BFL FAN BOY!

I'm just trying to understand wtf this is about -- is this an issue about BFL fan boys versus people who don't like BFL? Or if BFL is scamming?

It's been said a couple of times that this is not a "court of law" and that legalese or line-by-line responses are sperging. There is another side to that coin. It's not okay to waltz in here and say that someone is a scammer because you don't like them. That's why I asked for a list of facts earlier. In response I got a bunch of facts like "Sonny committed a crime 10 years ago" and "Josh is a big fat jerk". I'm sorry, I should have said, facts related to whether or not BFL is scamming.

Anyway, no one said your facts had to prove anything. Relax bro. It's okay to hate someone. You have a right to hate people and talk shit in a free society.

LOL I like how you are telling me "how things are".

Thanks but no thanks. No one asked for you input. But keep trying to sound intelligent.  Grin Grin Grin

No one asked for your input either. We're all just weighing in.

What Monster Trent said has some real weight. We need to get the address of the fab, and have someone go down there and pay a visit.

Excellent idea! I say six of us should go to the FAB and they should give us free reign to walk around and inspect the plant. The FAB should have nothing to hide. Why didn't I think of this earlier?  Roll Eyes
Josh actually said something about allowing people to visit the fab as soon as they have it all set up, just so long as you called ahead of time to make sure someone would be available to provide a tour, since they're going to be in and out a whole bunch in the coming weeks.

Quote
Our new manufacturing facility is almost complete. We will be posting a video walk through hopefully by the end of the week so that you can see the facility and all the parts we have, ready and waiting for the chips to finish baking (Mmmm delicious chips). We will accept visitors, but please call before you decide to drop by so that we know when to expect you and can make time to show you around. We are (understandably) very busy right now and I do not want to turn anyone away because everyone is already engaged with other tasks. I will be traveling a lot, as will several other members of our team, so make sure we are there if you want to talk to us about anything.
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-12.html#post10590

Quote from: grnbrg
Depends on your perspective... BFL has ~12,000 chips coming that will put out 7.5 GHash each, for a total of 90,000 GHash. The first week of BFL's shipments will equal Avalon's first batch. Unless your BFL order was paid for in June, Avalon doubling the hashrate won't mean that much.

But whatever. I'm content with BFL's performance for the most part. Ask me in 2 or 3 months how the various manufacturers have done. 

12,000 chips @ $1,300 each = $15.6M in pre-order monies

this is not science.  This is 1 post on the BFL forums.
Quoted for mathematical failure!

BTW, you still haven't taken me up on my bet.  Should be easy money right?  I'll bet 20 BTC that BFL will deliver a working ASIC product to multiple end customers before the end of 2013.
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January 16, 2013, 05:41:26 PM
 #108

This is the worst accusation thread ever.

If I were BFL and wanted to insure against an eventual scam accusation, I'd hire Micon to put up exactly this thread, than everytime someone accuses me of scamming I could just point at this thread going "No-uh."
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January 16, 2013, 10:54:40 PM
 #109

Not that I have anything against Micon,

But that math was kinda off.

You can't assume that 1 ASIC chip per BFL device.

Good laugh!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

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January 17, 2013, 01:13:16 AM
 #110

Hey BFL FAN BOY!

I'm just trying to understand wtf this is about -- is this an issue about BFL fan boys versus people who don't like BFL? Or if BFL is scamming?

It's been said a couple of times that this is not a "court of law" and that legalese or line-by-line responses are sperging. There is another side to that coin. It's not okay to waltz in here and say that someone is a scammer because you don't like them. That's why I asked for a list of facts earlier. In response I got a bunch of facts like "Sonny committed a crime 10 years ago" and "Josh is a big fat jerk". I'm sorry, I should have said, facts related to whether or not BFL is scamming.

Anyway, no one said your facts had to prove anything. Relax bro. It's okay to hate someone. You have a right to hate people and talk shit in a free society.

LOL I like how you are telling me "how things are".

Thanks but no thanks. No one asked for you input. But keep trying to sound intelligent.  Grin Grin Grin

No one asked for your input either. We're all just weighing in.

What Monster Trent said has some real weight. We need to get the address of the fab, and have someone go down there and pay a visit.

Excellent idea! I say six of us should go to the FAB and they should give us free reign to walk around and inspect the plant. The FAB should have nothing to hide. Why didn't I think of this earlier?  Roll Eyes
Josh actually said something about allowing people to visit the fab as soon as they have it all set up, just so long as you called ahead of time to make sure someone would be available to provide a tour, since they're going to be in and out a whole bunch in the coming weeks.



My post was tongue-in-cheek, referencing a FAB, as in a foundry, and not BFL's facility.

If I understand correctly, the KC facility is where the offices will be located, with possibly future assembly taking place there. Currently, it's warehousing miscellaneous items: nuts; bolts; cases; <insert humor> chicken feed; empty quarter sleeves; etc.
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January 17, 2013, 03:31:17 AM
 #111

Hey BFL FAN BOY!

I'm just trying to understand wtf this is about -- is this an issue about BFL fan boys versus people who don't like BFL? Or if BFL is scamming?

It's been said a couple of times that this is not a "court of law" and that legalese or line-by-line responses are sperging. There is another side to that coin. It's not okay to waltz in here and say that someone is a scammer because you don't like them. That's why I asked for a list of facts earlier. In response I got a bunch of facts like "Sonny committed a crime 10 years ago" and "Josh is a big fat jerk". I'm sorry, I should have said, facts related to whether or not BFL is scamming.

Anyway, no one said your facts had to prove anything. Relax bro. It's okay to hate someone. You have a right to hate people and talk shit in a free society.

LOL I like how you are telling me "how things are".

Thanks but no thanks. No one asked for you input. But keep trying to sound intelligent.  Grin Grin Grin

No one asked for your input either. We're all just weighing in.

What Monster Trent said has some real weight. We need to get the address of the fab, and have someone go down there and pay a visit.

Excellent idea! I say six of us should go to the FAB and they should give us free reign to walk around and inspect the plant. The FAB should have nothing to hide. Why didn't I think of this earlier?  Roll Eyes
Josh actually said something about allowing people to visit the fab as soon as they have it all set up, just so long as you called ahead of time to make sure someone would be available to provide a tour, since they're going to be in and out a whole bunch in the coming weeks.



My post was tongue-in-cheek, referencing a FAB, as in a foundry, and not BFL's facility.

If I understand correctly, the KC facility is where the offices will be located, with possibly future assembly taking place there. Currently, it's warehousing miscellaneous items: nuts; bolts; cases; <insert humor> chicken feed; empty quarter sleeves; etc.


So what was preventing them showing those cases at CES instead of empty fpga cases from existing products ?

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January 17, 2013, 06:16:22 AM
 #112

my DonkDown radio podcast from today, dealing mostly with my BFL encounter at CES 2013: http://www.donkdown.com/josh-zerlan-butterfly-labs-scam-investigation-full-radio-report/

I'm flying FPV race drones these days. Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/MiconFPV
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January 17, 2013, 10:21:36 AM
 #113

So what was preventing them showing those cases at CES instead of empty fpga cases from existing products ?

This is the one thing that was most surprising to me. Can't they show a PCB or a chip or something?

Who is going to take a trip down to the fab tomorrow and take some pictures?
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January 17, 2013, 04:24:44 PM
 #114

So what was preventing them showing those cases at CES instead of empty fpga cases from existing products ?

This is the one thing that was most surprising to me. Can't they show a PCB or a chip or something?

Who is going to take a trip down to the fab tomorrow and take some pictures?

Why do you think this was the case? Seems like an awful lot has gone on behind the scenes according to Josh, but with no hard evidence...batch of bad chips, pcb, anything?

Raises the questions of why again and again.

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January 17, 2013, 04:39:09 PM
 #115

I saw the video, and when Josh told you off, I actually laughed my ass off. I worked in sales for years, and I had to deal with little shits like you. There is so many fucking idiots these days, and I couldn't stand it. After years of hard work, and being an ace employee, I eventually quit. But ever since day one at that job, Josh did the EXACT thing that myself and many other co-workers wanted to do.

You're not some internet hero. You're the pesky little sibling who always tattle tailed on your older brother. The kid in school that reminded the teacher to pass out homework assignments. You're the little shit that everyone learned to hate, that never grew up.

You win a fucking gold star.

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January 17, 2013, 04:42:11 PM
 #116

I saw the video, and when Josh told you off, I actually laughed my ass off. I worked in sales for years, and I had to deal with little shits like you. There is so many fucking idiots these days, and I couldn't stand it. After years of hard work, and being an ace employee, I eventually quit. But ever since day one at that job, Josh did the EXACT thing that myself and many other co-workers wanted to do.

You're not some internet hero. You're the pesky little sibling who always tattle tailed on your older brother. The kid in school that reminded the teacher to pass out homework assignments. You're the little shit that everyone learned to hate, that never grew up.

You win a fucking gold star.
I lold.

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January 17, 2013, 06:16:04 PM
 #117

I saw the video, and when Josh told you off, I actually laughed my ass off. I worked in sales for years, and I had to deal with little shits like you. There is so many fucking idiots these days, and I couldn't stand it. After years of hard work, and being an ace employee, I eventually quit. But ever since day one at that job, Josh did the EXACT thing that myself and many other co-workers wanted to do.

You're not some internet hero. You're the pesky little sibling who always tattle tailed on your older brother. The kid in school that reminded the teacher to pass out homework assignments. You're the little shit that everyone learned to hate, that never grew up.

You win a fucking gold star.


Na I've done sales, I hated lying to people. That's what sales people do fucken lie. Your job depends on it or you have bills to pay. What ever the case was.

When someone came in knowing the scam you tell them nicely we can't do business with you and ask them to leave. You know as a mechanic customers come in with their own parts (cheap fucker) or the Hot girl that offered a blowjob to get a discount (cheap fucker)

Hey if you can't handle lying to stupid people then sales is not for you.

Me I have a conscience so sales was not my thing but don't be angry at a stupid person thats on to your scam.

God I hate sales people.   
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January 17, 2013, 06:56:14 PM
 #118

Hey if you can't handle lying to stupid people then sales is not for you.
Well, they don't even sell a product. They're selling non-binding promises to their creditors. That's all. Pocketing bitcoin enthusiasts is the easiest made money these days.
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January 17, 2013, 07:24:33 PM
 #119

Pocketing bitcoin enthusiasts idiots is has always been the easiest made money these days.
FTFY

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January 17, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
 #120

Added this info to the OP:



Original Butterfly Labs Asic Announcement:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0 [6/16/2012 OP date]

elux's BFL scammer thread, concerning Sonny Vleisides:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0

Sonny Vleisides "intro" thread as BFL_Sonny:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110868.0

Codinginmysleep Sonny Vleisides interview: http://codinginmysleep.com/interview-with-sonny-vleisides/


-------------------------------------------------------------

Info still needed:

-- Full company info of BFL
---- Exactly company name
---- State of incorporation
---- Officially listed principals of buttefly labs
-- Any sourcing info for where they are buying the ASICs from.   



If anyone wants to answer my "newb" questions about BFL I'd really appreciate a link or a PM, it will help me fill out the OP and JoshZerlan.com:

-  Has BFL ever released where they plan to buy ASIC chips from?  has it always been a "corporate secret" ?
-  Has anyone ever toured the facility?  Do we know if they have a facility? 
-  Is there any physical address for this business that is known?

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