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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan  (Read 99286 times)
tbcoin
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January 14, 2013, 11:15:39 PM
 #21

You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
What if BFL is a scam? A scam worth 1/4 of the total bitcoin market cap? Wow... That may easily become the end of bitcoin?!

(facepalm)

First I'm sure the percentage of bitcoin payments is much lower than dollars payments.

Second by more than insist on hogging your bitcoin and thus your absurd logic that should give you back the same amount of btc though now worth twice as much, it really logical and likely is that all btc payments immediately converted to USD.

And...$25M is a number invented and absurdly large.

Sorry for my bad english Wink
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January 14, 2013, 11:26:05 PM
 #22

You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
Especially with the video, scam accusations and constant tirade against BFL. You've made the whole BFL issue into Mircon vs BFL.

Either you'll come out smelling of roses or look a complete moron.

Yawn, people said the same thing about PirateAt40
is really stupid compare pirateat40 with BFL.

How so?

Pirate payed his investors monthly up until the day he defaulted to gain trust from the community and get more people to invest more money.

How is that any different from BFL selling FPGAs to gain the trust of the community and getting more people to invest more money in ASICs up until the day they run off with all the pre-order money?

The cases are similar if that's really what's going on here. Anyone that denies BFL's shadiness stands too much to lose if it turns out to be a scam and are blindly defending BFL. I have no ASIC pre-orders and can see things from an unbiased viewpoint. There is a possible chance BFL pre-orders are a scam, to say there is no chance would be foolish.

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January 14, 2013, 11:40:04 PM
 #23

You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
Especially with the video, scam accusations and constant tirade against BFL. You've made the whole BFL issue into Mircon vs BFL.

Either you'll come out smelling of roses or look a complete moron.

Yawn, people said the same thing about PirateAt40
is really stupid compare pirateat40 with BFL.

How so?

Pirate payed his investors monthly up until the day he defaulted to gain trust from the community and get more people to invest more money.

How is that any different from BFL selling FPGAs to gain the trust of the community and getting more people to invest more money in ASICs up until the day they run off with all the pre-order money?

The cases are similar if that's really what's going on here. Anyone that denies BFL's shadiness stands too much to lose if it turns out to be a scam and are blindly defending BFL. I have no ASIC pre-orders and can see things from an unbiased viewpoint. There is a possible chance BFL pre-orders are a scam, to say there is no chance would be foolish.
Because they've been losing trust (and preorders/money) since December.  They would've stopped the scam and ran then rather than lose money continuing with it.
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January 14, 2013, 11:42:38 PM
 #24

When there is no actual product and no prototypes accepting orders is an "investment" not a purchase. It is basically a no interest loan especially if they use the funds to finance their production process. In this case yes the SEC does prosecute investment scams, because thats what it is.

Exactly.  BFL appears to be crowdfunding without being straightforward about it, much less compliant with the numerous applicable regulations.

BFL is going to get reamed under the new JOBS Act.  The SEC says everything is forbidden until they get around to permitting it.   Roll Eyes
    
Quote
Frequently Asked Questions About Crowdfunding Intermediaries

http://www.sec.gov/divisions/marketreg/tmjobsact-crowdfundingintermediariesfaq.htm


Responses to Frequently Asked Questions

Question 1.

I would like to operate a crowdfunding intermediary. Am I required to register with the SEC before doing so?

Answer:

Yes. You must register with the SEC either as a broker or as a funding portal.

Please keep in mind that the SEC still has to write rules to implement the crowdfunding provisions of the JOBS Act. Until the SEC has completed this rulemaking, you cannot act as a crowdfunding intermediary, even if you are already a registered broker.

This situation is unlikely to change anytime soon, because Obama and the Democrats are tools of Wall Street oligarchs:

Stalled Crowdfunding Rules Leave Business Plans on Ice
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324339204578173731988591450.html

SEC uses JOBS Act to set up new roadblocks to crowdfunding
http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/31/sec-uses-jobs-act-to-set-up-new-roadblocks-to-crowdfunding/

Crowdfunding, The 'Game-Changing' Part Of The Jobs Act, Is Stuck In Regulatory Hell
http://www.businessinsider.com/crowd-funding-is-stuck-in-regulatory-hell-2012-12

Crowdfunding Start-ups Wait in Wings as SEC Stalls
http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/crowdfunding-start-ups-wait-for-sec.html




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January 15, 2013, 12:14:19 AM
 #25

Because they've been losing trust (and preorders/money) since December.  They would've stopped the scam and ran then rather than lose money continuing with it.

While its true they have lost trust throught the community, according to Inaba himself, hardly anyone has asked for a refund.

Also, how do you know they have not received a lot of orders in the past few months of uncertainty? Answer: you don't. I'm sure they had plenty more new orders in that time period... Not everyone reads these forums. Some rich guy whom just heard about bitcoin might come across some PR article BFL released about their ASICs or see their booth at CES and go straight to the website and buy 10 mini rigs... Etc.

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January 15, 2013, 12:30:38 AM
 #26

Because they've been losing trust (and preorders/money) since December.  They would've stopped the scam and ran then rather than lose money continuing with it.

While its true they have lost trust throught the community, according to Inaba himself, hardly anyone has asked for a refund.

Also, how do you know they have not received a lot of orders in the past few months of uncertainty? Answer: you don't. I'm sure they had plenty more new orders in that time period... Not everyone reads these forums. Some rich guy whom just heard about bitcoin might come across some PR article BFL released about their ASICs or see their booth at CES and go straight to the website and buy 10 mini rigs... Etc.
Ok, I agree, it is speculative on both sides of the coin.  I am basing my speculation on the fact that I have seen 3-4 times as many people posting about receiving refunds for their BFL orders vs new posts saying they have ordered some.  But again, that is not telling any story with certainty.

Where did Josh state that hardly anyone has asked for a refund?
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January 15, 2013, 12:37:23 AM
 #27

Where did Josh state that hardly anyone has asked for a refund?

I think he said this in late December around christmas day in one of the million page BFL threads while arguing with the anti-BFL posse... Good luck finding it though. He even went so far as stating every time he argued with someone on bitcointalk.org or someone says bad things about BFL, the more that their sales increased.... Something along these lines. So judging by that alone, their sales should be higher than ever right now, lol!  Cheesy Roll Eyes

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January 15, 2013, 12:52:49 AM
 #28

Yeah, I'm his numero uno sales guy! Wink

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January 15, 2013, 05:26:03 AM
 #29

You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
Especially with the video, scam accusations and constant tirade against BFL. You've made the whole BFL issue into Mircon vs BFL.

Either you'll come out smelling of roses or look a complete moron.

+1

Anyone firing at BFL without any proof, just speculating about this being a scam ...   Do you realize how damaging it could be for your name fi BFL asic became real ?
AFAIK, anyone calling BFL or any other Asic companies scam, are doing so just on speculation.. 

No working asic as been proven to exist, as no prove have been made of an Asic companie to be a scam..  About bAsic, I would say they have just fails, and never intended to scam (just my personal speculation/impression)

I dont understand why so many peoples are fighting against BFL !  Maybe because if they succeed, they will succeed A LOT and this make some jealous ?

If they fails, they have at least tried..  If it's a scam, I'll be really surprised !

weeks to come sounds really exiting !!!
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January 15, 2013, 05:27:31 AM
 #30

Micon - I'll gladly take you up on a 1:1 bet that BFL will deliver.  I'd put down 20 BTC that BFL will deliver an ASIC miner by the end of 2013.

Im in to bet this too Smiley

will you dare ?
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January 15, 2013, 05:30:13 AM
 #31

You do realise that if BFL is legit, you're going to look the biggest clown in the whole Bitcoin community for a very long time...
What if BFL is a scam? A scam worth 1/4 of the total bitcoin market cap? Wow... That may easily become the end of bitcoin?!

(facepalm)

First I'm sure the percentage of bitcoin payments is much lower than dollars payments.

Second by more than insist on hogging your bitcoin and thus your absurd logic that should give you back the same amount of btc though now worth twice as much, it really logical and likely is that all btc payments immediately converted to USD.

And...$25M is a number invented and absurdly large.

+1 won a place in my ingnore list for his absurd request/whinning.. complaining like a kid, crying loud everywhere.. Tired to read his nonsense claim, even doing a complaint to the SEC ??  Ignore function are for this kind of user !

Like CoinHoarder said :
There is a possible chance BFL pre-orders are a scam, to say there is no chance would be foolish.

I'm still willing to (have) bet on BFL delivering Asic somtimes in 2013 !
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January 15, 2013, 05:48:36 AM
 #32

And if it is a scam, I will be a most vision prophet in Bitcoin community.

Va-Bank. I smell scam from 100 miles.

Va-Bank: in gambling is when player bets all of his money. Other players must also bet all their money or surrender. In common meaning means an action with a huge risk, huge profit or huge loose.

Go Va-Bank - bet all on single event.

In Ukrainian it sounds like "Або Пан або пропав" - "Either king or beggar".
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January 15, 2013, 09:13:02 AM
 #33

I dont understand why so many peoples are fighting against BFL ! 
Really? It shouldn't be so difficult!
"Give us your money now and we shall deliver something whenever we have something to deliver"...
Well, you say this is not a scam?!
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January 15, 2013, 09:21:32 AM
 #34

Other players must also bet all their money or surrender.
Both players are not in the same weight category. One of them has succeeded in collecting tenths of millions from greedy monkeys and can easily "Va-bank" every opposition now. He has nothing to lose except his customers' money. But hey... This is a risk his customers have accepted right?
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January 15, 2013, 09:23:06 AM
 #35

I have big interest here you don't really see. And Josh helps me alot with his stupid behavior. As well as all BFL leaders and Bitpay.
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January 15, 2013, 10:00:29 AM
 #36

And if it is a scam, I will be a most vision prophet in Bitcoin community.

This was my point..

You may be correct, you may be incorrect.
One you look like a prophet, one you look like a clown.

I have a preorder with BFL, only a small Jalapeno (bought on a CC that I can chargeback till the 28th March).
If things work out as planning I'll buy more ASICs. If things don't work out I'll get a refund.
At the moment I'm 90/10 it's legit, but I have my bases covered in case it's not.


If it does turn out to be true, then there are going to be a lot of very red faced people who will owe apologies for the vehement manner in which they screamed at BFL and Josh in particular.
If it does turn out to be scam, then these people will be the first people to say "I told you so!"

I'm not sticking up for anyone (I'm being unbiased), all I'm saying is that it's best to err on the side of caution, especially as we get closer to dispatch of ASICs.

Veni, Vidi, Cidere, Prenda In Gen, Interlitum Verlgo Stipes, Dissiptum.
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January 15, 2013, 10:06:47 AM
 #37

One you look like a prophet, one you look like a clown.
Exactly man, exactly! I am prophet clown. I like to be on both sides of long stick. Hell and heaven. Destruction and construction.

"The only difference between the wise man and the fool is that the wise man knows he is playing" Fritz Perls
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January 15, 2013, 10:23:08 AM
 #38

especially as we get closer to dispatch of ASICs.

Uh... Quite on the contrary. After the last announcement we are back to square 1!

BFL strategy is simple. They started as a scam, no doubt about that. In the middle of the distance of scam life cycle they tried hard to become gray but they failed several times. If they'll end as a scam depends entirely on how many customers will request refunds. That situation, my friend, is a classic ponzi scheme! The only difference is that they do not pay interest on the funds they've attracted from their creditors (pardon me, customers).
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January 15, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
 #39

especially as we get closer to dispatch of ASICs.

Uh... Quite on the contrary. After the last announcement we are back to square 1!

I was talking ASICs in generally.

Avalon are due to ship in ~5 days, BFL are shipping on the week of 10th February, I don't know about ASICMiner (as I never know where to look for updates!).

Veni, Vidi, Cidere, Prenda In Gen, Interlitum Verlgo Stipes, Dissiptum.
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January 15, 2013, 12:57:46 PM
 #40

I strongly disagree with Micon on many issues, and his approach, but this is one where I agree with him.

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