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Author Topic: Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan  (Read 99263 times)
SgtSpike
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February 19, 2013, 04:00:49 AM
 #201

Pretty sure it's not a requirement to mention that something is a pre-order in a web banner ad.  If it is, please link to the relevant laws stating so.

stop legaling it up, it's extremely misleading and no matter what you bet on that is clear.  potential buyer thinks "I buy X gh/s for X using X power" and starts doing calculations. 

have you read the initial press release?  vague and scammish sounding IMO:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm

by contrast let's take a look at a press release from a real btc company with a real round of funding, Bitpay:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitpay-expand-bitcoin-processing-space-190000470.html

first sentence lists investors.   No piece of evidence alone is enough to convict, but it all keeps adding up more and more scammy with each new piece of info.  Sonny, Josh's conduct at CES, Pre-order dishonesty, vague press release, constant missed deadlines with pre-order marketing spending same or increasing...
And yet, with all of that, I still don't see them deserving of a "scam" tag.
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February 19, 2013, 04:59:00 AM
 #202

Pretty sure it's not a requirement to mention that something is a pre-order in a web banner ad.  If it is, please link to the relevant laws stating so.

It isn't about it being lawful. It is just scummy as fuck to not say it is in the advertisements.

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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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February 19, 2013, 05:01:55 AM
 #203

Pretty sure it's not a requirement to mention that something is a pre-order in a web banner ad.  If it is, please link to the relevant laws stating so.

stop legaling it up, it's extremely misleading and no matter what you bet on that is clear.  potential buyer thinks "I buy X gh/s for X using X power" and starts doing calculations. 

have you read the initial press release?  vague and scammish sounding IMO:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm

by contrast let's take a look at a press release from a real btc company with a real round of funding, Bitpay:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitpay-expand-bitcoin-processing-space-190000470.html

first sentence lists investors.   No piece of evidence alone is enough to convict, but it all keeps adding up more and more scammy with each new piece of info.  Sonny, Josh's conduct at CES, Pre-order dishonesty, vague press release, constant missed deadlines with pre-order marketing spending same or increasing...
And yet, with all of that, I still don't see them deserving of a "scam" tag.

Just wait for it...

███████████████████████████████████████

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███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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February 19, 2013, 08:23:53 AM
 #204

No piece of evidence alone is enough to convict,

Well, if it's any good it is.
It's just that since you haven't shown any real scamming you propably need more.. eeh.. 'stuff'.
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February 19, 2013, 07:12:25 PM
 #205

It's just that since you haven't shown any real scamming you propably need more.. eeh.. 'stuff'.

Quote
A confidence trick (also known as a scam) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence. A confidence artist is an individual operating alone or in concert with others who exploits characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté, or greed.

BFL is a scam. There is no doubt about that.
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February 19, 2013, 11:00:28 PM
 #206

It's just that since you haven't shown any real scamming you propably need more.. eeh.. 'stuff'.

Quote
A confidence trick (also known as a scam) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence. A confidence artist is an individual operating alone or in concert with others who exploits characteristics of the human psyche such as dishonesty, honesty, vanity, compassion, credulity, irresponsibility, naïveté, or greed.

BFL is a scam. There is no doubt about that.


Not sure if Josh Boy knows how much $ certain russians invested in the pre-order... I am sure the next couple of weeks will be alot of fun Smiley

ps. Buy BITCOINS dont buy BFL's empty air =)



Obrigado

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February 20, 2013, 09:17:44 PM
 #207

What do u think about the bumping pics published?
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February 21, 2013, 12:32:51 AM
 #208

What do u think about the bumping pics published?

do you consider this a picture of bumping?



and Josh has made no update on the BFL forums about bumping, which started almost 1 week ago.  These pictures did not need to involved 3 airplane flights and a guy from Australia to acquire - why didn't they post these months ago, or just take them with the android devices they use for mining and upload? 

Seems a lot like CES to me - all show, no substance.  No ASIC chip, nothing mining at fast speeds, no pix of the actual bumping...  nothing at all.

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February 21, 2013, 05:32:45 AM
 #209

What about this http://i.imgur.com/aMXYg8l.png
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February 21, 2013, 01:39:24 PM
 #210


I think that officially rules out any possibility of February shipping and makes the first couple weeks of March seem unlikely as well.

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February 21, 2013, 02:30:34 PM
 #211


I think that officially rules out any possibility of February shipping and makes the first couple weeks of March seem unlikely as well.

i dont really follow BFL status too much but it seems to me that they send stuff from A to B in very update? i think thats funny Smiley

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February 21, 2013, 05:17:21 PM
 #212


I think that officially rules out any possibility of February shipping and makes the first couple weeks of March seem unlikely as well.

That's very funny, because

Whoever bet that is a fool.. I suspect it's Mircea Popescu... good luck winning your bet against when you lose, though.  I'm sure he'll force close the bet and negate all bets after we ship so he doesn't lose the 250 BTC.

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February 21, 2013, 06:17:16 PM
 #213

Remember October was a sure bet then November rush before Christmas holiday's

oh then it was Chinese new year as that was gonna be no effect on BFL customers

Now its talk of around March and IF you order now maybe May or June.

So why was October-November such a sure bet?
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February 21, 2013, 06:44:21 PM
 #214

Remember October was a sure bet then November rush before Christmas holiday's

oh then it was Chinese new year as that was gonna be no effect on BFL customers

Now its talk of around March and IF you order now maybe May or June.

So why was October-November such a sure bet?

...because it helped to draw sales of FPGAs and GPUs to BFL's vaporware campaign.

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February 23, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
 #215

Remember October was a sure bet then November rush before Christmas holiday's

oh then it was Chinese new year as that was gonna be no effect on BFL customers

Now its talk of around March and IF you order now maybe May or June.

So why was October-November such a sure bet?

...because it helped to draw sales of FPGAs and GPUs to BFL's vaporware campaign.

So for my own curiosity, is Inaba getting a scammer tag after June passes by and bupkiss? I mean obviously Sonny already has scammer tag irl so it wouldn't matter for him, but the kid's tender butt could do with some "Stupid & Brash" branding.

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February 24, 2013, 12:39:20 PM
 #216

Josh's most recent reply on BFL forums:

Quote from: josh zerlan
Buddy3315,

You have a fundamental flaw in your statement. It's based entirely around the fact that we somehow knew about the delays before hand and have been lying to people all along. I just can't take people seriously when they start off with that premise, because it is patently false. In the beginning I gave vague dates because we did not have hard dates. Everyone cries for transparency so I give hard dates and we miss them. Do you think I just pull these dates out of thin air? No, I get these dates from the people who are doing the work. I know some of them, sometimes, are not going to meet their dates, but when I give you vague dates you get angry because it's not a specific date. That's the problem. You want specific dates but there are not specific dates to be had. Again, we go back to the fact that if you think you can do better, why are you on this forum, buying these products? You should be making your own and showing the world how it's done.

That said, Buddy3315, I think it may be time for you to get a refund. You are unhappy and it's quite understandable and if I were in your position and your viewpoint, I would be seeking a refund. We will happily give you a refund (and a refund to anyone else who is tired of waiting or believes that we are somehow lying to people to string them along.) I have given you the best dates I can and they have been missed, we apologize for that deeply. I also understand that it's very easy to say "Well, you should do this or you should have done that." but the fact of the matter is that it's NOT that easy. The world simply doesn't work like that, no matter how much you might want to believe it does. I point to the simple fact that every ASIC manufacturer for Bitcoin has been delayed (or destroyed). If it were as simple as people claim, you'd think at least one of them would have delivered on time and on spec, but not a single vendor has delivered on time or on spec. Why do you think that is? Because they are all lying or because it's a difficult project and unexpected events happen? Occams razor would tend to dictate the latter, since it's unlikely every ASIC vendor is lying. Couple that with the fact that the first vendor to ship a working product in volume stands to make a hell of a lot of money, so intentionally delaying or lying or what have you is nothing but detrimental to the process.

1)  the tough-talk on refunds seems to be similar to pirateat40 issuing payout requests

2)  This seems like almost an admission of guilt.  What are "vague dates?"  who lied to make them vauge? 

3)  what is the point of referencing other ASIC makers?  2 of them have beat BFL to market, and the only impact that has is on the bottom line of the multitude of BFL customers currently watching the network hash rate spike.

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February 25, 2013, 06:47:25 PM
 #217

My guess is that pre-orders have taken a dive. This is one way to stay relevant without shipping or providing some proof of a working product.
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February 25, 2013, 07:55:48 PM
 #218

I'm pretty sure that bASIC collapsing was what BFL needed especially when Avalon started shipping the first units.

Anyone find out yet if the chips are good? I can't find anything stating so.

I'll keep looking.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/1147-shipping-costs-something-wrong.html

Found this to be interesting and supports my understanding.

Shipping Costs - Is something wrong?

    I was looking through the order system and I noticed something....

    $215 for shipping a Jalapeno
    $400 for shipping a Single
    $1,900 for shipping a Minirig

    Surely this is wrong? It's not like I live in the back end of nowhere.... I'm UK!
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February 25, 2013, 08:19:53 PM
 #219

oh boy...



Every statement from Josh has me more and more convinced that BFL is a scam. 


Quote from: Josh Zerlan
"I don't know who's dropped the ball this week on the bumping"

really?  the COO doesn't know what happened to the millions of dollars worth of chips that have been at the bumping facility since Valentine's day?  It seems like from 2/14-2/25 all Josh did was troll up a betting thread.


Quote from: Josh Zerlan
"these places just are not used to dealing with accelerated timelines and they just can't wrap their head around urgency"

so the Chief of Operations didn't know that ahead of time?  Or is Josh just making shit up again?


Quote from: Josh Zerlan
"We literaly gave them a blank check to have it done ASAP and they wern't able to do it" 

That sounds like sound business practice.   Interesting to know they "wern't able to do it" - those words would scare the shit out of me if I had a $30k fanbox on order...





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February 25, 2013, 08:59:43 PM
 #220

Shoutbox Archive

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 02-23-2013 01:42 PM
There's no chance that we are going to fold up shop like Tom. We actually have a design and chips, etc... and we are not in danger of going bankrupt or anything. These delays are just incredibly frustrating and when it seems impossible ot impart a sense of urgency on to other people, no matter how much you offer to pay them, it's like WTF

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 02-23-2013 01:33 PM
I understand the impatience and the dissappointment. Not only am I deeply sorry that this has happened, I also share the pain and suffering. What I take umbrage to is the fact that somehow we've been lying about the dates all long and that we really knew we'd be delayed until now.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 02-19-2013 09:14 PM
Well, actually ,that's one of the reasons for the delay I think.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 01-15-2013 01:32 PM
I'm working to get it taken care of right now with no delay so hang tight.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 01-12-2013 07:11 PM
If Avalon is delayed at all they are pretty much screwed.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 01-12-2013 06:39 PM
I'll also be posting a pic of the chip that will (along with an explanation) as to why we were delayed this extra month.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 12-13-2012 09:18 AM
Looks like Avalon delays have started. I expect it to be the first of many.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 11-27-2012 06:44 PM
Our current chip costs including potential delays were all built in to the original plan... and if we never had to use them, it would have been extra profit.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 11-27-2012 06:34 PM
I appreciate that. So why all the hostility? It's not like we are intentionally delaying things or intentionally giving out bad dates. We are working with the information we have at the time and this is an incredibly complex process... I can't even begin to describe everything that has gone into getting a product out.

BFL_Josh - Report Shout 11-27-2012 03:39 PM
bASIC is delayed until mid-January

Grabbed this off the shout box with the search words BFL_Josh and delay
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