Health and Religion

[CoinCube]

This 'solution' assumes the society that is already 100% religious.

What do you do with a society that is only 75% religious?  You apply the 'religious liberty' and make them religious anyway so that they can be saved from themselves by themselves, not the rule of law of the secular government?  How?  By setting up religious conversion camps?

The point he is making assumes we don't have empathy for one another and need divine (aka fearsome) moral rules, or else we would be killing our neighbors.  Is he that insane?  Maybe he is speaking from his personal experience as a sociopath or psychopath.  I am not sure.

I never understood this line of thinking.  If you take any religion, and I mean any, you will find that the divine moral rules are reprehensible.

How can he stand there and talk about religious liberty is required to be moral to one another?  He is a pretentious, ignorant fool preaching to the choir.

And you my friend did not answer my question.

How much of the speech did you watch? The speech is 37 minutes long and you wrote your post 19 minutes after mine.

Consider watching the rest when you have time. It really is a great one and will help you understand the perspectives of those who disagree with you.

Democracy is a social structure possible as a superior alternative to despotism or monarchy only when society has attained a sufficient degree of moral virtue and social capital. God and the Bible over time create that moral foundation.

See Religion and Progress

William Barr has spent his life in the justice department where he would have seen firsthand the spectrum of human evil. Yet you question his sanity as you have on many occasions questioned mine.

You should consider the possibility that insanity is not very common and perhaps you are missing something.

[af_newbie]

This 'solution' assumes the society that is already 100% religious.

What do you do with a society that is only 75% religious?  You apply the 'religious liberty' and make them religious anyway so that they can be saved from themselves by themselves, not the rule of law of the secular government?  How?  By setting up religious conversion camps?

The point he is making assumes we don't have empathy for one another and need divine (aka fearsome) moral rules, or else we would be killing our neighbors.  Is he that insane?  Maybe he is speaking from his personal experience as a sociopath or psychopath.  I am not sure.

I never understood this line of thinking.  If you take any religion, and I mean any, you will find that the divine moral rules are reprehensible.

How can he stand there and talk about religious liberty is required to be moral to one another?  He is a pretentious, ignorant fool preaching to the choir.

And you my friend did not answer my question.

How much of the speech did you watch? The speech is 37 minutes long and you wrote your post 19 minutes after mine.

Consider watching the rest when you have time. It really is a great one and will help you understand the perspectives of those who disagree with you.

Democracy is a social structure possible as a superior alternative to despotism or monarchy only when society has attained a sufficient degree of moral virtue and social capital. God and the Bible over time create that moral foundation.

See Religion and Progress

William Barr has spent his life in the justice department where he would have seen firsthand the spectrum of human evil. Yet you question his sanity as you have on many occasions questioned mine.

You should consider the possibility that insanity is not very common and perhaps you are missing something.

And that is a difference between us.

I would question anything and anyone.  You won't.

I will not agree with religious moral teaching because I KNOW it is wrong.  That is why people like Barr are wrong.

Slavery is wrong, the killing of gays is wrong, the killing of people who work on Sabbath is wrong, the discrimination of women is wrong.

I am all for moral teaching just not the religious moral teaching Mr. Barr is advocating.

I would agree with him if he dropped the 'religious moral teaching' and replace it with the 'secular moral teaching'.  Of course, there is a link between one's upbringing and one's future criminal activity.  Secular education is always the answer.

And you are still avoiding answering my question:

Where in the Bible God talks about the preservation of democracy?

[BADecker]

This 'solution' assumes the society that is already 100% religious.

What do you do with a society that is only 75% religious?  You apply the 'religious liberty' and make them religious anyway so that they can be saved from themselves by themselves, not the rule of law of the secular government?  How?  By setting up religious conversion camps?

The point he is making assumes we don't have empathy for one another and need divine (aka fearsome) moral rules, or else we would be killing our neighbors.  Is he that insane?  Maybe he is speaking from his personal experience as a sociopath or psychopath.  I am not sure.

I never understood this line of thinking.  If you take any religion, and I mean any, you will find that the divine moral rules are reprehensible.

How can he stand there and talk about religious liberty is required to be moral to one another?  He is a pretentious, ignorant fool preaching to the choir.

And you my friend did not answer my question.

How much of the speech did you watch? The speech is 37 minutes long and you wrote your post 19 minutes after mine.

Consider watching the rest when you have time. It really is a great one and will help you understand the perspectives of those who disagree with you.

Democracy is a social structure possible as a superior alternative to despotism or monarchy only when society has attained a sufficient degree of moral virtue and social capital. God and the Bible over time create that moral foundation.

See Religion and Progress

William Barr has spent his life in the justice department where he would have seen firsthand the spectrum of human evil. Yet you question his sanity as you have on many occasions questioned mine.

You should consider the possibility that insanity is not very common and perhaps you are missing something.

And that is a difference between us.

I would question anything and anyone.  You won't.

I will not agree with religious moral teaching because I KNOW it is wrong.  That is why people like Barr are wrong.

Slavery is wrong, the killing of gays is wrong, the killing of people who work on Sabbath is wrong, the discrimination of women is wrong.

I am all for moral teaching just not the religious moral teaching Mr. Barr is advocating.

I would agree with him if he dropped the 'religious moral teaching' and replace it with the 'secular moral teaching'.  Of course, there is a link between one's upbringing and one's future criminal activity.  Secular education is always the answer.

And you are still avoiding answering my question:

Where in the Bible God talks about the preservation of democracy?

None of that stuff you say is wrong regarding your government, if it is part of your government.

How does a government get to be your government? By your acceptance of it... a contract or agreement between you and your government.

For example, consider Stockholm Syndrome. You are a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor says, "Submit or die." What are you going to do? You have the choice of maintaining your prior government and dying, or of making a deal with your captor that he is your new government through the force he is exerting.

The example of this is King Zedekiah of Judah, when he made a deal with Nebuchadnezzar. Zedekiah accepted Babylon as his government. Then he broke the agreement that he had made with Nebuchadnezzar, and God was against him for this.

God talks about the preservation of your government - even Democracy - right in Romans 13. Obey your government. But before you can obey your government, you have to choose your government. If you choose Democracy, then obey, just like Romans 13 says.

So, think clearly about which government you want to obey. If you don't obey the right government, you will wind up being a slave. But God's government is a government of freedom... Galatians 5:1:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[af_newbie]

This 'solution' assumes the society that is already 100% religious.

What do you do with a society that is only 75% religious?  You apply the 'religious liberty' and make them religious anyway so that they can be saved from themselves by themselves, not the rule of law of the secular government?  How?  By setting up religious conversion camps?

The point he is making assumes we don't have empathy for one another and need divine (aka fearsome) moral rules, or else we would be killing our neighbors.  Is he that insane?  Maybe he is speaking from his personal experience as a sociopath or psychopath.  I am not sure.

I never understood this line of thinking.  If you take any religion, and I mean any, you will find that the divine moral rules are reprehensible.

How can he stand there and talk about religious liberty is required to be moral to one another?  He is a pretentious, ignorant fool preaching to the choir.

And you my friend did not answer my question.

How much of the speech did you watch? The speech is 37 minutes long and you wrote your post 19 minutes after mine.

Consider watching the rest when you have time. It really is a great one and will help you understand the perspectives of those who disagree with you.

Democracy is a social structure possible as a superior alternative to despotism or monarchy only when society has attained a sufficient degree of moral virtue and social capital. God and the Bible over time create that moral foundation.

See Religion and Progress

William Barr has spent his life in the justice department where he would have seen firsthand the spectrum of human evil. Yet you question his sanity as you have on many occasions questioned mine.

You should consider the possibility that insanity is not very common and perhaps you are missing something.

And that is a difference between us.

I would question anything and anyone.  You won't.

I will not agree with religious moral teaching because I KNOW it is wrong.  That is why people like Barr are wrong.

Slavery is wrong, the killing of gays is wrong, the killing of people who work on Sabbath is wrong, the discrimination of women is wrong.

I am all for moral teaching just not the religious moral teaching Mr. Barr is advocating.

I would agree with him if he dropped the 'religious moral teaching' and replace it with the 'secular moral teaching'.  Of course, there is a link between one's upbringing and one's future criminal activity.  Secular education is always the answer.

And you are still avoiding answering my question:

Where in the Bible God talks about the preservation of democracy?

None of that stuff you say is wrong regarding your government, if it is part of your government.

How does a government get to be your government? By your acceptance of it... a contract or agreement between you and your government.

For example, consider Stockholm Syndrome. You are a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor says, "Submit or die." What are you going to do? You have the choice of maintaining your prior government and dying, or of making a deal with your captor that he is your new government through the force he is exerting.

The example of this is King Zedekiah of Judah, when he made a deal with Nebuchadnezzar. Zedekiah accepted Babylon as his government. Then he broke the agreement that he had made with Nebuchadnezzar, and God was against him for this.

God talks about the preservation of your government - even Democracy - right in Romans 13. Obey your government. But before you can obey your government, you have to choose your government. If you choose Democracy, then obey, just like Romans 13 says.

So, think clearly about which government you want to obey. If you don't obey the right government, you will wind up being a slave. But God's government is a government of freedom... Galatians 5:1:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Romans 13 has nothing to do with democracy, more like a monarchy with God the ultimate monarch.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment..."


Keep looking.  You won't find it.

[BADecker]

None of that stuff you say is wrong regarding your government, if it is part of your government.

How does a government get to be your government? By your acceptance of it... a contract or agreement between you and your government.

For example, consider Stockholm Syndrome. You are a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor says, "Submit or die." What are you going to do? You have the choice of maintaining your prior government and dying, or of making a deal with your captor that he is your new government through the force he is exerting.

The example of this is King Zedekiah of Judah, when he made a deal with Nebuchadnezzar. Zedekiah accepted Babylon as his government. Then he broke the agreement that he had made with Nebuchadnezzar, and God was against him for this.

God talks about the preservation of your government - even Democracy - right in Romans 13. Obey your government. But before you can obey your government, you have to choose your government. If you choose Democracy, then obey, just like Romans 13 says.

So, think clearly about which government you want to obey. If you don't obey the right government, you will wind up being a slave. But God's government is a government of freedom... Galatians 5:1:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Romans 13 has nothing to do with democracy, more like a monarchy with God the ultimate monarch.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment..."


Keep looking.  You won't find it.

You quoted it: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. If the government is set up as a democracy, then it is: Let every person be subject to the democracy.

The point is, whatever government you choose, be subject to the governing authorities of that government. After all, how does a government become your government if not by your choosing of it? And how do you choose it: by accident by being born there; by formal acceptance; by force in a hostile takeover; etc.

God is the head of all government. But for you, government is what you choose. Since you don't accept God as your government, and since God is for freedom, He will give you over to the government you choose. What is that government? You don't really know, do you?

[af_newbie]

None of that stuff you say is wrong regarding your government, if it is part of your government.

How does a government get to be your government? By your acceptance of it... a contract or agreement between you and your government.

For example, consider Stockholm Syndrome. You are a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor says, "Submit or die." What are you going to do? You have the choice of maintaining your prior government and dying, or of making a deal with your captor that he is your new government through the force he is exerting.

The example of this is King Zedekiah of Judah, when he made a deal with Nebuchadnezzar. Zedekiah accepted Babylon as his government. Then he broke the agreement that he had made with Nebuchadnezzar, and God was against him for this.

God talks about the preservation of your government - even Democracy - right in Romans 13. Obey your government. But before you can obey your government, you have to choose your government. If you choose Democracy, then obey, just like Romans 13 says.

So, think clearly about which government you want to obey. If you don't obey the right government, you will wind up being a slave. But God's government is a government of freedom... Galatians 5:1:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Romans 13 has nothing to do with democracy, more like a monarchy with God the ultimate monarch.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment..."


Keep looking.  You won't find it.

You quoted it: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. If the government is set up as a democracy, then it is: Let every person be subject to the democracy.

The point is, whatever government you choose, be subject to the governing authorities of that government. After all, how does a government become your government if not by your choosing of it? And how do you choose it: by accident by being born there; by formal acceptance; by force in a hostile takeover; etc.

God is the head of all government. But for you, government is what you choose. Since you don't accept God as your government, and since God is for freedom, He will give you over to the government you choose. What is that government? You don't really know, do you?

You ignored the rest of the quote. 

By your logic, the Bible supports Islamic governments, Nazism, Communism, etc. 
Basically, any government because "those that exist have been instituted by God.".

Nothing to do with democracy.

[CoinCube]

And you are still avoiding answering my question:

Where in the Bible God talks about the preservation of democracy?

In the words of Winston Churchill:

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Why would you expect the Bible to talk about the preservation of a flawed system of government?

The quality of government is dependent on the virtue of the individuals within it. The freedom that is possible is directly proportional to the virtue of the population and inversely proportional to the capacity of individuals within that population to do harm.

The Bible is directed towards individuals with a focus on redemption, salvation and moral improvement. That process on a large enough scale will shift the foundation of a society allowing mankind to do away with despotism and monarchy without reverting to the state of nature where life was accurately described by Hobbs as solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Democracy is an incremental improvement not a final state. The Bible outlines the process that leads to the incremental improvement.

[af_newbie]

And you are still avoiding answering my question:

Where in the Bible God talks about the preservation of democracy?

In the words of Winston Churchill:

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Why would you expect the Bible to talk about the preservation of a flawed system of government?

The quality of government is dependent on the virtue of the individuals within it. The freedom that is possible is directly proportional to the virtue of the population and inversely proportional to the capacity of individuals within that population to do harm.

The Bible is directed towards individuals with a focus on redemption, salvation and moral improvement. That process on a large enough scale will shift the foundation of a society allowing mankind to do away with despotism and monarchy without reverting to the state of nature where life was accurately described by Hobbs as solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Democracy is an incremental improvement not a final state. The Bible outlines the process that leads to the incremental improvement.

It was your argument that "No my argument is that a society grounded in God is necessary to maintain the vital dynamism necessary to preserve liberty ", then your brought up the liberty and democracy into the fold.

So now you are backtracking it because the Bible does not support it?

I think we just went a full circle.

Moral improvement cannot be achieved using the Bible because the Bible does not CHANGE.

Progressive moral improvements are made by secularists.  Religious folks constantly OPPOSE ALL progressive changes.

You lost on both counts:

1. God is not required to run or to sustain a democracy.  (God did not know that democracy was a thing, LOL)
2. God opposes any moral improvements.  "My way or the highway" - God.

[CoinCube]

It was your argument that "No my argument is that a society grounded in God is necessary to maintain the vital dynamism necessary to preserve liberty ", then your brought up the liberty and democracy into the fold.

So now you are backtracking it because the Bible does not support it?

I think we just went a full circle.

Moral improvement cannot be achieved using the Bible because the Bible does not CHANGE.

Progressive moral improvements are made by secularists.  Religious folks constantly OPPOSE ALL progressive changes.

You lost on both counts:

1. God is not required to run or to sustain a democracy.  (God did not know that democracy was a thing, LOL)
2. God opposes any moral improvements.  "My way or the highway" - God.

Read the bolded portion again.

Then watch this video.

How Do We Make Society Better?

If you still don't understand then I am sorry but its not that complicated.

Democracy and liberty are not synonyms. Liberty is individual human freedom, a freedom that is maximized by increasing human virtue. Democracy is a flawed form of human government that is nevertheless in most circumstances superior to monarchy or despotism.

Religious people oppose most progressive changes because most progressive changes lead to moral degeneration and decay. Western society is currently in a fairly severe state of decay largely thanks to the progressive secularists and their "improvements". Time will tell if the structure can be renewed or if it will collapse. It is certainly possible to have elections and "democracy" without liberty. Even the Soviet Union had that. 

Elections in the Soviet Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_Soviet_Union

[af_newbie]

It was your argument that "No my argument is that a society grounded in God is necessary to maintain the vital dynamism necessary to preserve liberty ", then your brought up the liberty and democracy into the fold.

So now you are backtracking it because the Bible does not support it?

I think we just went a full circle.

Moral improvement cannot be achieved using the Bible because the Bible does not CHANGE.

Progressive moral improvements are made by secularists.  Religious folks constantly OPPOSE ALL progressive changes.

You lost on both counts:

1. God is not required to run or to sustain a democracy.  (God did not know that democracy was a thing, LOL)
2. God opposes any moral improvements.  "My way or the highway" - God.

Read the bolded portion again.

Then watch this video.

How Do We Make Society Better?

If you still don't understand then I am sorry but its not that complicated.

Democracy and liberty are not synonyms. Liberty is individual human freedom, a freedom that is maximized by increasing human virtue. Democracy is a flawed form of human government that is nevertheless in most circumstances superior to monarchy or despotism.

Religious people oppose most progressive changes because most progressive changes lead to moral degeneration and decay. Western society is currently in a fairly severe state of decay largely thanks to the progressive secularists and their "improvements". Time will tell if the structure can be renewed or if it will collapse. It is certainly possible to have elections and "democracy" without liberty. Even the Soviet Union had that. 

Elections in the Soviet Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_Soviet_Union

So I guess you are for slavery after all. 

The emancipation of slaves from religious bigots did not lead to moral degradation and decay as YOU suggested.

Only progressive thought is worth a consideration.  Religious thought is a history, never to be repeated.

[CoinCube]

So I guess you are for slavery after all.  

The emancipation of slaves from religious bigots did not lead to moral degradation and decay as YOU suggested.

Only progressive thought is worth a consideration.  Religious thought is a history, never to be repeated.

Sigh... open your eyes af_newbie the abolitionist movement was a Christian movement.
 
Christian Abolitionism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from 'un-institutional' Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.[1][2]

In particular, the effects of the Second Great Awakening resulted in many evangelicals working to see the theoretical Christian view, that all people are essentially equal, made more of a practical reality. Freedom of expression within the Western world also helped in enabling opportunity to express their position. Prominent among these abolitionists was Parliamentarian William Wilberforce in England, who wrote in his diary when he was 28 that, "God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and Reformation of Morals."

Maybe this will help you understand

Freedom and Moral Self-Control

[af_newbie]

So I guess you are for slavery after all.  

The emancipation of slaves from religious bigots did not lead to moral degradation and decay as YOU suggested.

Only progressive thought is worth a consideration.  Religious thought is a history, never to be repeated.

Sigh... open your eyes af_newbie the abolitionist movement was a Christian movement.
 
Christian Abolitionism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. [1] Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from 'un-institutional' Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.[1][2]

In particular, the effects of the Second Great Awakening resulted in many evangelicals working to see the theoretical Christian view, that all people are essentially equal, made more of a practical reality. Freedom of expression within the Western world also helped in enabling opportunity to express their position. Prominent among these abolitionists was Parliamentarian William Wilberforce in England, who wrote in his diary when he was 28 that, "God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and Reformation of Morals."

Maybe this will help you understand

Freedom and Moral Self-Control

LOL.

And who were the bigots that use the Bible to justify slavery?  Fucking Christians, that is who.
Progressive Christians went AGAINST their religion because they were good people.

Was the emancipation of slaves a progressive change?

Did the emancipation cause moral degradation and decay, as YOU claimed?

The Christians who brought about the emancipation of slaves are the same type of Christians who today stand for the LGBT community and the dicks who opposed the emancipation then, oppose the progressive changes (sex and gender equality, women's reproductive rights) today.

Go back to your sandbox and think about it some more.

[CoinCube]

LOL.

And who were the bigots that use the Bible to justify slavery?  Fucking Christians, that is who.
Progressive Christians went AGAINST their religion because they were good people.

Was the emancipation of slaves a progressive change?

Did the emancipation cause moral degradation and decay, as YOU claimed?

The Christians who brought about the emancipation of slaves are the same type of Christians who today stand for the LGBT community and the dicks who opposed the emancipation then, oppose the progressive changes (sex and gender equality, women's reproductive rights) today.

Go back to your sandbox and think about it some more.

The Christians were the ones driving the abolitionist movement. Your attempt to argue that they were somehow acting against their faith are foolish hand waving. I am certain that those individuals were they alive today would be deeply insulted by your smear.

It is true that there have always been and always will be men who do evil in the name of God but the message of the Bible is one of freedom.

If you want proof of that just look at what those "religious slaveholders" felt they had to do to the Bible to make it safe for their slaves to learn about it. They chopped it up and removed huge portions of it. They did so because they were concerned about the message of freedom it carries.

The Shocking 'Slave Bible'
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/february/freedom-in-christ-how-this-bible-was-used-to-manipulate

In Washington DC’s Museum of the Bible, a copy of the so-called “Slave Bible” sits on display.
...
This Bible, used by slave masters in the early 1800s, is quite different than the one used in pews today.

“It starts off with the creation story…then it jumps to Joseph getting sold into slavery by his brothers and how that ends up being a good thing for him,” Schmidt told CBN News.
“We skip over the Israelites in slavery in Egypt being let out,” said Schmidt.
Other references to freedom were also omitted.
...
Most slaves were illiterate or prohibited from reading, so what would be the point of such a Bible?
“The abolitionist movement was beginning to make waves on both sides of the Atlantic “said Schmidt.

One way slave owners could combat pressure from abolitionists was to tell them they were good Christians that taught their slaves about God.

 

[af_newbie]

LOL.

And who were the bigots that use the Bible to justify slavery?  Fucking Christians, that is who.
Progressive Christians went AGAINST their religion because they were good people.

Was the emancipation of slaves a progressive change?

Did the emancipation cause moral degradation and decay, as YOU claimed?

The Christians who brought about the emancipation of slaves are the same type of Christians who today stand for the LGBT community and the dicks who opposed the emancipation then, oppose the progressive changes (sex and gender equality, women's reproductive rights) today.

Go back to your sandbox and think about it some more.

The Christians were the ones driving the abolitionist movement. Your attempt to argue that they were somehow acting against their faith are foolish hand waving. I am certain that those individuals were they alive today would be deeply insulted by your smear.

It is true that there have always been and always will be men who do evil in the name of God but the message of the Bible is one of freedom.

If you want proof of that just look at what those "religious slaveholders" felt they had to do to the Bible to make it safe for their slaves to learn about it. They chopped it up and left removed huge parts of it. They did so because they were concerned about the message of freedom it carries.

The Shocking 'Slave Bible'
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/february/freedom-in-christ-how-this-bible-was-used-to-manipulate

In Washington DC’s Museum of the Bible, a copy of the so-called “Slave Bible” sits on display.
...
This Bible, used by slave masters in the early 1800s, is quite different than the one used in pews today.

“It starts off with the creation story…then it jumps to Joseph getting sold into slavery by his brothers and how that ends up being a good thing for him,” Schmidt told CBN News.

“We skip over the Israelites in slavery in Egypt being let out,” said Schmidt.

Other references to freedom were also omitted.
...
Most slaves were illiterate or prohibited from reading, so what would be the point of such a Bible?

“The abolitionist movement was beginning to make waves on both sides of the Atlantic “said Schmidt.

One way slave owners could combat pressure from abolitionists was to tell them they were good Christians that taught their slaves about God.

You are not only ignorant of the Bible but the history of the slave trade.

The Bible explicitly sanctions slavery to this fucking day.  
That is what Christian slave owners and traders used as the justification for their immoral actions.

Progressives are the good people here, always were and always will be.  Christian abolitionists stuck their necks, had to break their ties with traditional churches that were in favor of slavery.  They stood up AGAINST their religion for the right reasons.  Just like some Christians today are doing when they campaign for women or gay rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

The Roman Catholic canon law was changed, wait for it, in 1917 to make selling human beings into slavery a crime.

You can continue to be a prick, and be against gay rights, gender equality, women's reproductive rights, etc.

You can thump your Bible all you want, nobody cares anymore about people like you.  You are like the pricks the abolitionists were up against.

Progressives will win for one reason, they are morally right.

Be a better person and join them. Or die a prick.

[BADecker]

None of that stuff you say is wrong regarding your government, if it is part of your government.

How does a government get to be your government? By your acceptance of it... a contract or agreement between you and your government.

For example, consider Stockholm Syndrome. You are a hostage in a hostage situation. Your captor says, "Submit or die." What are you going to do? You have the choice of maintaining your prior government and dying, or of making a deal with your captor that he is your new government through the force he is exerting.

The example of this is King Zedekiah of Judah, when he made a deal with Nebuchadnezzar. Zedekiah accepted Babylon as his government. Then he broke the agreement that he had made with Nebuchadnezzar, and God was against him for this.

God talks about the preservation of your government - even Democracy - right in Romans 13. Obey your government. But before you can obey your government, you have to choose your government. If you choose Democracy, then obey, just like Romans 13 says.

So, think clearly about which government you want to obey. If you don't obey the right government, you will wind up being a slave. But God's government is a government of freedom... Galatians 5:1:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Romans 13 has nothing to do with democracy, more like a monarchy with God the ultimate monarch.

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment..."


Keep looking.  You won't find it.

You quoted it: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. If the government is set up as a democracy, then it is: Let every person be subject to the democracy.

The point is, whatever government you choose, be subject to the governing authorities of that government. After all, how does a government become your government if not by your choosing of it? And how do you choose it: by accident by being born there; by formal acceptance; by force in a hostile takeover; etc.

God is the head of all government. But for you, government is what you choose. Since you don't accept God as your government, and since God is for freedom, He will give you over to the government you choose. What is that government? You don't really know, do you?

You ignored the rest of the quote. 

By your logic, the Bible supports Islamic governments, Nazism, Communism, etc. 
Basically, any government because "those that exist have been instituted by God.".

Nothing to do with democracy.

What is there to ignore? God supports people. People select their government no matter what government it is. All you are trying to do is tell people to not support the government they promised to support. Do you think that governments that are democracies aren't supported by God, somehow?

[BADecker]

LOL.

And who were the bigots that use the Bible to justify slavery?  Fucking Christians, that is who.
Progressive Christians went AGAINST their religion because they were good people.

Was the emancipation of slaves a progressive change?

Did the emancipation cause moral degradation and decay, as YOU claimed?

The Christians who brought about the emancipation of slaves are the same type of Christians who today stand for the LGBT community and the dicks who opposed the emancipation then, oppose the progressive changes (sex and gender equality, women's reproductive rights) today.

Go back to your sandbox and think about it some more.

The Christians were the ones driving the abolitionist movement. Your attempt to argue that they were somehow acting against their faith are foolish hand waving. I am certain that those individuals were they alive today would be deeply insulted by your smear.

It is true that there have always been and always will be men who do evil in the name of God but the message of the Bible is one of freedom.

If you want proof of that just look at what those "religious slaveholders" felt they had to do to the Bible to make it safe for their slaves to learn about it. They chopped it up and left removed huge parts of it. They did so because they were concerned about the message of freedom it carries.

The Shocking 'Slave Bible'
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/february/freedom-in-christ-how-this-bible-was-used-to-manipulate

In Washington DC’s Museum of the Bible, a copy of the so-called “Slave Bible” sits on display.
...
This Bible, used by slave masters in the early 1800s, is quite different than the one used in pews today.

“It starts off with the creation story…then it jumps to Joseph getting sold into slavery by his brothers and how that ends up being a good thing for him,” Schmidt told CBN News.

“We skip over the Israelites in slavery in Egypt being let out,” said Schmidt.

Other references to freedom were also omitted.
...
Most slaves were illiterate or prohibited from reading, so what would be the point of such a Bible?

“The abolitionist movement was beginning to make waves on both sides of the Atlantic “said Schmidt.

One way slave owners could combat pressure from abolitionists was to tell them they were good Christians that taught their slaves about God.

You are not only ignorant of the Bible but the history of the slave trade.

The Bible explicitly sanctions slavery to this fucking day.  
That is what Christian slave owners and traders used as the justification for their immoral actions.

Progressives are the good people here, always were and always will be.  Christian abolitionists stuck their necks, had to break their ties with traditional churches that were in favor of slavery.  They stood up AGAINST their religion for the right reasons.  Just like some Christians today are doing when they campaign for women or gay rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

The Roman Catholic canon law was changed, wait for it, in 1917 to make selling human beings into slavery a crime.

You can continue to be a prick, and be against gay rights, gender equality, women's reproductive rights, etc.

You can thump your Bible all you want, nobody cares anymore about people like you.  You are like the pricks the abolitionists were up against.

Progressives will win for one reason, they are morally right.

Be a better person and join them. Or die a prick.

Do you think that a minimum wage worker who works for Microsoft is not a slave?

People who have slaves, don't have them just for the fun of owning people. They own their slaves so that the slaves produce some kind of product/service for them. They feed their slaves because they know slaves die without food. They give their slaves water, because they know slaves die without water to drink. They take care of their slaves in whatever ways make the slaves produce more.

Your slave master where you work pays you the way he does because he hopes that his pay will make you slave for him better.

If a person doesn't have any method for getting food, and he sells himself to a master so he won't die, that's voluntary slavery by the slave. Would you rather have a dead person than a slave working to build his value up so he can free himself?

But the USA won't let starving people do this... sell themselves to a master. Instead, they make the slaves their slaves... work for an income and pay taxes.

Wake up. It's all slavery. The only difference is the quality of life for some slaves over other slaves.



EDIT: Btw. St. Paul writing to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 7:21:

Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

[af_newbie]

LOL.

And who were the bigots that use the Bible to justify slavery?  Fucking Christians, that is who.
Progressive Christians went AGAINST their religion because they were good people.

Was the emancipation of slaves a progressive change?

Did the emancipation cause moral degradation and decay, as YOU claimed?

The Christians who brought about the emancipation of slaves are the same type of Christians who today stand for the LGBT community and the dicks who opposed the emancipation then, oppose the progressive changes (sex and gender equality, women's reproductive rights) today.

Go back to your sandbox and think about it some more.

The Christians were the ones driving the abolitionist movement. Your attempt to argue that they were somehow acting against their faith are foolish hand waving. I am certain that those individuals were they alive today would be deeply insulted by your smear.

It is true that there have always been and always will be men who do evil in the name of God but the message of the Bible is one of freedom.

If you want proof of that just look at what those "religious slaveholders" felt they had to do to the Bible to make it safe for their slaves to learn about it. They chopped it up and left removed huge parts of it. They did so because they were concerned about the message of freedom it carries.

The Shocking 'Slave Bible'
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/february/freedom-in-christ-how-this-bible-was-used-to-manipulate

In Washington DC’s Museum of the Bible, a copy of the so-called “Slave Bible” sits on display.
...
This Bible, used by slave masters in the early 1800s, is quite different than the one used in pews today.

“It starts off with the creation story…then it jumps to Joseph getting sold into slavery by his brothers and how that ends up being a good thing for him,” Schmidt told CBN News.

“We skip over the Israelites in slavery in Egypt being let out,” said Schmidt.

Other references to freedom were also omitted.
...
Most slaves were illiterate or prohibited from reading, so what would be the point of such a Bible?

“The abolitionist movement was beginning to make waves on both sides of the Atlantic “said Schmidt.

One way slave owners could combat pressure from abolitionists was to tell them they were good Christians that taught their slaves about God.

You are not only ignorant of the Bible but the history of the slave trade.

The Bible explicitly sanctions slavery to this fucking day.  
That is what Christian slave owners and traders used as the justification for their immoral actions.

Progressives are the good people here, always were and always will be.  Christian abolitionists stuck their necks, had to break their ties with traditional churches that were in favor of slavery.  They stood up AGAINST their religion for the right reasons.  Just like some Christians today are doing when they campaign for women or gay rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Abolitionism

The Roman Catholic canon law was changed, wait for it, in 1917 to make selling human beings into slavery a crime.

You can continue to be a prick, and be against gay rights, gender equality, women's reproductive rights, etc.

You can thump your Bible all you want, nobody cares anymore about people like you.  You are like the pricks the abolitionists were up against.

Progressives will win for one reason, they are morally right.

Be a better person and join them. Or die a prick.

Do you think that a minimum wage worker who works for Microsoft is not a slave?

People who have slaves, don't have them just for the fun of owning people. They own their slaves so that the slaves produce some kind of product/service for them. They feed their slaves because they know slaves die without food. They give their slaves water, because they know slaves die without water to drink. They take care of their slaves in whatever ways make the slaves produce more.

Your slave master where you work pays you the way he does because he hopes that his pay will make you slave for him better.

If a person doesn't have any method for getting food, and he sells himself to a master so he won't die, that's voluntary slavery by the slave. Would you rather have a dead person than a slave working to build his value up so he can free himself?

But the USA won't let starving people do this... sell themselves to a master. Instead, they make the slaves their slaves... work for an income and pay taxes.

Wake up. It's all slavery. The only difference is the quality of life for some slaves over other slaves.



EDIT: Btw. St. Paul writing to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 7:21:

Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

It is not the slavery we are talking about here.  Microsoft cannot beat you with a physical rod.
Microsoft cannot sell you on the open slave market in Libya.  They don't OWN you.  You can quit your job and start your own Microsoft.

Exodus 21:20-21
_{"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."}

[BADecker]

Do you think that a minimum wage worker who works for Microsoft is not a slave?

People who have slaves, don't have them just for the fun of owning people. They own their slaves so that the slaves produce some kind of product/service for them. They feed their slaves because they know slaves die without food. They give their slaves water, because they know slaves die without water to drink. They take care of their slaves in whatever ways make the slaves produce more.

Your slave master where you work pays you the way he does because he hopes that his pay will make you slave for him better.

If a person doesn't have any method for getting food, and he sells himself to a master so he won't die, that's voluntary slavery by the slave. Would you rather have a dead person than a slave working to build his value up so he can free himself?

But the USA won't let starving people do this... sell themselves to a master. Instead, they make the slaves their slaves... work for an income and pay taxes.

Wake up. It's all slavery. The only difference is the quality of life for some slaves over other slaves.



EDIT: Btw. St. Paul writing to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 7:21:

Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

It is not the slavery we are talking about here.  Microsoft cannot beat you with a physical rod.
Microsoft cannot sell you on the open slave market in Libya.  They don't OWN you.  You can quit your job and start your own Microsoft.

Exodus 21:20-21
_{"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."}

Over 400,000 people living in 'modern slavery' in US, report finds - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/us-modern-slavery-report-global-slavery-index.

What is Modern Slavery? - https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/.

Again, what do you want? Death or slavery? If you are out of options, wouldn't it be nice if you could find a master who would feed you in return for some labor?

We have welfare systems set up. Other places in the world don't. If it is volunteer slavery so that you can survive, and if it is legal or acceptable, why die?

The Bible talks in the O.T. against stealing people (for slavery). The slavery that was the custom of ancient peoples was being reduced in O.T. times by the Bible. You don't simply take a system that people have been using for ages, and suddenly change it. It took time for things to get where they are today. However, all over Africa and the Middle East and China, slavery is presently being allowed by governments even though they formally have laws against it.

Read what Saint Paul said as I added it above. The Bible is against slavery. But the people had to be trained out of their long-time habits. And systems had to be set in place for taking care of those in need so that they didn't have to sell themselves into slavery.

Until we can set up systems to take care of impoverished people all over the world, slavery is good. It benefits the slaves.

[af_newbie]

Do you think that a minimum wage worker who works for Microsoft is not a slave?

People who have slaves, don't have them just for the fun of owning people. They own their slaves so that the slaves produce some kind of product/service for them. They feed their slaves because they know slaves die without food. They give their slaves water, because they know slaves die without water to drink. They take care of their slaves in whatever ways make the slaves produce more.

Your slave master where you work pays you the way he does because he hopes that his pay will make you slave for him better.

If a person doesn't have any method for getting food, and he sells himself to a master so he won't die, that's voluntary slavery by the slave. Would you rather have a dead person than a slave working to build his value up so he can free himself?

But the USA won't let starving people do this... sell themselves to a master. Instead, they make the slaves their slaves... work for an income and pay taxes.

Wake up. It's all slavery. The only difference is the quality of life for some slaves over other slaves.



EDIT: Btw. St. Paul writing to the Corinthians, 1 Corinthians 7:21:

Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

It is not the slavery we are talking about here.  Microsoft cannot beat you with a physical rod.
Microsoft cannot sell you on the open slave market in Libya.  They don't OWN you.  You can quit your job and start your own Microsoft.

Exodus 21:20-21
_{"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."}

Over 400,000 people living in 'modern slavery' in US, report finds - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/us-modern-slavery-report-global-slavery-index.

What is Modern Slavery? - https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/.

Again, what do you want? Death or slavery? If you are out of options, wouldn't it be nice if you could find a master who would feed you in return for some labor?

We have welfare systems set up. Other places in the world don't. If it is volunteer slavery so that you can survive, and if it is legal or acceptable, why die?

The Bible talks in the O.T. against stealing people (for slavery). The slavery that was the custom of ancient peoples was being reduced in O.T. times by the Bible. You don't simply take a system that people have been using for ages, and suddenly change it. It took time for things to get where they are today. However, all over Africa and the Middle East and China, slavery is presently being allowed by governments even though they formally have laws against it.

Read what Saint Paul said as I added it above. The Bible is against slavery. But the people had to be trained out of their long-time habits. And systems had to be set in place for taking care of those in need so that they didn't have to sell themselves into slavery.

Until we can set up systems to take care of impoverished people all over the world, slavery is good. It benefits the slaves.

Are you arguing that because slavery still exists today, it is ok?  If you do, your moral compass is seriously messed up.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-slavery/

The bible clearly sanctioned slavery.  You seem to be confused about both, the Bible and slavery.

There is nothing to argue about.  Just read that book for once.

[CoinCube]

Are you arguing that because slavery still exists today, it is ok?  If you do, your moral compass is seriously messed up.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-slavery/

The bible clearly sanctioned slavery.  You seem to be confused about both, the Bible and slavery.

There is nothing to argue about.  Just read that book for once.

No he is highlighting the fact that the Bible mitigates and restricts slavery in practice and simultaneously establishes the conditions where slavery can eventually be reduced or eliminated.

It was no coincidence that the abolitionist movement was led by Christians.

There is indeed nothing to argue about.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1566146.msg17342890#msg17342890