BFL: Chips have shipped, on their way to US

[mjester93]

Taken from the BFL forums:

Chips have shipped from the fab and are on their way to the US. They are expected to arrive early next week (Monday or Tuesday), but since the bumping facility won't be ready until the 14th as the earliest, it isn't quite as critical. We really wanted to have the bumping facility be ready prior to the chip arrival, but there were a number of factors that lead to it taking slightly longer than anticipated. Timeline remains the same as above at this point. As we get more information, I will update more. But the chips are confirmed to have been sent.

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[Turbor]

About time

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

Ready like Freddy

[mufa23]

My body is ready

[loshia]

Be prepared for CNY surprises soon:) hot news are knocking on the door

[turboNOMAD]

Remember that a bag of chips is always half-empty... at best

[mjester93]

Remember that a bag of chips is always half-empty... at best

Exactly. After seeing how Avalon has only shipped 2 of the 300 units, I doubt BFL is going to have all 6,000.

[PuertoLibre]

Remember that a bag of chips is always half-empty... at best

Exactly. After seeing how Avalon has only shipped 2 of the 300 units, I doubt BFL is going to have all 6,000.

I am going to speculate that BFL ate through a good portion of the batches/Wafers they had on standby to get to this point.

As they use 65nm,  that means it has alot of layers. (More Layers = More Days to deposit them)

It may be a while until they reach the newer orders. The current speculation is that they can cover most orders up till August 2012. BFL Customer Service mentioned some of the newer orders may be delivered to customer as late as May 2013.

September til February orders will have to wait for some time.

--------------------

It is pretty much a repeat of what happened with the FPGA products. (Well not with the power consumption issues...one hopes.)

[Xian01]

My member is turgid.

[PuertoLibre]

As they use 65nm,  that means it has alot of layers. (More Layers = More Days to deposit them)

It may be a while until they reach the newer orders. The current speculation is that they can cover most orders up till August 2012. BFL Customer Service mentioned some of the newer orders may be delivered to customer as late as May 2013.

September til February orders will have to wait for some time.

Hopefully they will also provide steep discount vouchers or coupons for later customers if this does turn out to be the case.

If you ordered in July 2012 and waited till February 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product.
If you ordered in August 2012 and waited till February 2013, it is 6 months to receive a BFL product.
If you ordered in September 2012 and waited till March 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product.
If you ordered in October 2012 and waited till April 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product.
If you ordered in November 2012 and waited till May 2013, it is 7 months to receive a BFL product.

etc..

[K1773R]

About time

About DAMN time

[crazyates]

Remember that a bag of chips is always half-empty... at best

I personally can't wait for my SC Singles.

[Bogart]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

[crazyates]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

Oh I realize that. I just like the pun that not all chip bags are all air.

[nathanrees19]

Be prepared for CNY surprises soon:) hot news are knocking on the door

Yeah, it sucks how the whole US practically shuts down at CNY.

[smoothie]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

This ^^

Some of you are blind aren't you? There hasn't been really any tests on the BFL "chips" that are "on the way to the US".

Hurry up and WAIT lol

Suckerz.... 

[testerx]

Gosh, I ordered in June as well so I better be in this first batch!  I'm really hoping it was worth the wait.

[mjester93]

Gosh, I ordered in June as well so I better be in this first batch!  I'm really hoping it was worth the wait.

What do you have pre-ordered?

[DobZombie]

It would be GOD DAMN HILARIOUS if BFL have a dozen confirmed received ASICs and AVALON still only have 2.5 in the wild after "shipping"

[smoothie]

It would be GOD DAMN HILARIOUS if BFL have a dozen confirmed received ASICs and AVALON still only have 2.5 in the wild after "shipping"

No what would be funnier that BFL with all their claims of chips being shipped to the U.S. found out that they never got shipped and they now have another 30 delay on the chips being shipped. LOL seeing you fools with your heads hung after 7-8 months of waiting. Fucking priceless.

[neotrix]

It would be GOD DAMN HILARIOUS if BFL have a dozen confirmed received ASICs and AVALON still only have 2.5 in the wild after "shipping"

No what would be funnier that BFL with all their claims of chips being shipped to the U.S. found out that they never got shipped and they now have another 30 delay on the chips being shipped. LOL seeing you fools with your heads hung after 7-8 months of waiting. Fucking priceless.

I'm also waiting to see what's going to happend with BFL in next 15 days as I was sure they won't deliver in february even in March... Even if I hope for their customer they do respect finally theor word after 10 delay story...

[wknight]

Nice to see the chips where shipped in bulk. I hope they have more chips on order since they have so many orders in place.

[Rawted]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

This ^^

Some of you are blind aren't you? There hasn't been really any tests on the BFL "chips" that are "on the way to the US".

Hurry up and WAIT lol

Suckerz.... 

I have to agree. I just posted a thread about this (that was deleted for some reason). These chips still have to make their way across the world to the US (i'm willing to bet they're not overnight airmailed....), assembled, and tested. That process alone will take weeks, and much longer if there's any sort of issues (let's face it, this is untested product - there will be issues). I was very late to the party (order number 18k), and i honestly don't expect to receive mine until well after the summer. I won't be able to get in early, or recoup my investment quickly, but let's face it - a jalapeno is going to be the minimum you'll need to make any sort of profit mining here very soon.

[rchapoteau]

Josh has stated today that the Fedex tracking # shows it arriving at the bumping facility in California on Thursday.  Personally I think they start shipping the final week of February, but we'll see.

[PuertoLibre]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed...

You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit.

[MonsterZero]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed...

You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_shrink

Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture.
Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices.

[MrTeal]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed...

You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_shrink

Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture.
Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices.

That's only true because you can fit more of the smaller dies on the same wafer, even though the wafer itself costs more. That doesn't take into account the NRE involved with the project though. In the case where volume is small like it is for BTC ASICs, you might never save enough per die to offset the cost of all the new tooling, let alone pass the savings on to your customers.

[repentance]

Have BFL told people to start sending back their FPGAs yet?  They said they would do this at least 7 days before shipping ASICs so it needs to happen in the next few days if they're planning to ship on 22 February.

[PuertoLibre]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed...

You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_shrink

Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture.
Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices.

The lower prices are due to mass volume production of other parts. Keep in mind BFL and Avalon are selling entire units. NOT single chips like those you cited.

They (AMD, Intel etc) also sell hundreds of millions of units (chips) so the NRE costs are a tiny fraction of the total cost. Scale <--- makes the price come down.

With ASIC's that is not the case. It is one batch for a few hundred people and only a number of wafers. (Up to a [low] multiple of 10,000 chips.)

(Note: For example, BFL only did 6 wafers for around ~6000~ ASIC chips in their first batch)

The cases and the rest of the components do not come down in price unless they establish a long term contract for the same parts. (in other words, not a single run)

This is basic economics of scale. It should be extremely obvious.

[MonsterZero]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed...

You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_shrink

Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture.
Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices.

The lower prices are due to mass volume production of other parts. Keep in mind BFL and Avalon are selling entire units. NOT single chips like those you cited.

They (AMD, Intel etc) also sell hundreds of millions of units (chips) so the NRE costs are a tiny fraction of the total cost. Scale <--- makes the price come down.

With ASIC's that is not the case. It is one batch for a few hundred people and only a number of wafers. (Up to a [low] multiple of 10,000 chips.)

(Note: For example, BFL only did 6 wafers for around ~6000~ ASIC chips in their first batch)

The cases and the rest of the components do not come down in price unless they establish a long term contract for the same parts. (in other words, not a single run)

This is basic economics of scale. It should be extremely obvious.

Interesting change of subject.  You were speaking about nm scale production costs.
You said "You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. "
Which is incorrect.  It should be extremely obvious.

[PuertoLibre]

Consider putting up for sale a 45nm ASIC. (Unit/powersupply/ASIC chips and all misc components.)

You are going to pay the design cost AND the mask etc.

Do you think it will cost you less or more to do business if you are only selling 5,000 units to a small community?

---------------------------

Now do the same only with 30,000,000 units. The price goes down, not up.

Everyone down the line has a contract with you in the latter scenario. Your costs go down as you buy parts in [true] bulk. Your quoted material costs per unit go down significantly compared to a tiny order.

[PuertoLibre]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

If you start off with a tiny 65nm process that is extremely densely packed...

You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. The only way to bring down the price is at the cost of profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_shrink

Die shrinks are popular among semiconductor companies, such as Intel, AMD (including the former ATI), NVIDIA, and Samsung for enriching their product lines. Examples in the 2000s include the codenamed Cedar Mill Pentium 4 processors (from 90 nm CMOS to 65 nm CMOS) and Penryn Core 2 processors (from 65 nm CMOS to 45 nm CMOS), the codenamed Brisbane Athlon 64 X2 processors (from 90 nm SOI to 65 nm SOI), and various generations of GPUs from both ATI and NVIDIA. In January 2010, Intel released Clarkdale Core i5 and Core i7 processors fabricated with a 32 nm process, down from a previous 45 nm process used in older iterations of the Nehalem processor microarchitecture.
Die shrinks are beneficial to end-users as shrinking a die reduces the current used by each transistor switching on or off in semiconductor devices while maintaining the same clock frequency of a chip, making a product with less power consumption (and thus less heat production), increased clock rate headroom, and lower prices.

The lower prices are due to mass volume production of other parts. Keep in mind BFL and Avalon are selling entire units. NOT single chips like those you cited.

They (AMD, Intel etc) also sell hundreds of millions of units (chips) so the NRE costs are a tiny fraction of the total cost. Scale <--- makes the price come down.

With ASIC's that is not the case. It is one batch for a few hundred people and only a number of wafers. (Up to a [low] multiple of 10,000 chips.)

(Note: For example, BFL only did 6 wafers for around ~6000~ ASIC chips in their first batch)

The cases and the rest of the components do not come down in price unless they establish a long term contract for the same parts. (in other words, not a single run)

This is basic economics of scale. It should be extremely obvious.

Interesting change of subject.  You were speaking about nm scale production costs.
You said "You can't expect that a 45nm or 32nm product to cost the same or less. It has to cost more. "
Which is incorrect.  It should be extremely obvious.

Wow,

So then answer this: Why didn't BFL go for 45nm technology from the start? Any guesses?

Edit: I think I understand your confusion. You think I am talking about the ASIC chips only and not the entire unit.

NO, I am referring to the entire unit. No ASIC company to date sells their chips like an AMD or Intel. Adding NRE costs to a smaller nm does increase the number of chips. But if done wrong usually results in less viable chips due to tiny defects.

AMD or Intel use binning and scale to get around that issue. As far as I know, I dont' see BFL or Avalon using binning techniques.

[Monster Tent]

It would be GOD DAMN HILARIOUS if BFL have a dozen confirmed received ASICs and AVALON still only have 2.5 in the wild after "shipping"

No what would be funnier that BFL with all their claims of chips being shipped to the U.S. found out that they never got shipped and they now have another 30 delay on the chips being shipped. LOL seeing you fools with your heads hung after 7-8 months of waiting. Fucking priceless.

They will still be installing tables in March...

[Unacceptable]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

Have you even read the BFL forums 

If ordered today,you may possibly recieve your unit by April or May (2-3 months)...............If they ship by late Feb 

More entitlement mentality 

[Tomatocage]

Have you even read the BFL forums 

If ordered today,you may possibly recieve your unit by April or May (2-3 months)...............If they ship by late Feb 

More entitlement mentality 

That's a perfectly reasonable wait to me. I'll be happy if I can make 1 BTC/day with 60 GH/s.

[Bogart]

About time

About DAMN time

So if i bought one today, I am waiting untill November? bull shit... they better drop that price by $300 if they think I am waiting 7 months for delivery of the products.

MFG costs should go down as time continues, or the Machines should have considerably more hashing power, or Power efficiency a year later.

Have you even read the BFL forums 

If ordered today,you may possibly recieve your unit by April or May (2-3 months)...............If they ship by late Feb 

More entitlement mentality 

Yea, well, that's what they (BFL) are saying right now.  They also said they'd ship in October 2012.

Look back at the FPGA product's history.  They said it would ship around October 2011, and it ended up first shipping in March 2012.

Then it wasn't until November 2012 (after they quit taking orders) that they finally got all of the orders caught up:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/36-fpgas-through10-5-shipping-today.html

[Beta-coiner1]

Have you even read the BFL forums  

If ordered today,you may possibly recieve your unit by April or May (2-3 months)...............If they ship by late Feb  

More entitlement mentality  

That's a perfectly reasonable wait to me. I'll be happy if I can make 1 BTC/day with 60 GH/s.

I'm also looking to get one soon enough but I definitely think one should would wait until others have received a product irregardless of the profit margin.

[repentance]

The discounts on future orders for those who ordered in July and August have been announced.

First months orders will get 25% off a future order. (Order dates June 23rd - July 24th)
Second months orders will get 10% off a future order. (Order dates July 25th - August 25th)

The 25% and 10% apply up to the value of your original order(s).

Example 1: Original first month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $1500 worth of equipment, get $250 off the order.
Example 2: Original second month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $500 worth of equipment, get $50 off the order.

We are doing it this way to prevent abuse such as someone ordering a Jalapeno, then getting 25% off the next order and ordering a Mini Rig.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/984-%5Bcustomer-appreciation%5D-discount-early-orderers-2.html#post14168

[nbtcminer]

The discounts on future orders for those who ordered in July and August have been announced.

First months orders will get 25% off a future order. (Order dates June 23rd - July 24th)
Second months orders will get 10% off a future order. (Order dates July 25th - August 25th)

The 25% and 10% apply up to the value of your original order(s).

Example 1: Original first month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $1500 worth of equipment, get $250 off the order.
Example 2: Original second month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $500 worth of equipment, get $50 off the order.

We are doing it this way to prevent abuse such as someone ordering a Jalapeno, then getting 25% off the next order and ordering a Mini Rig.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/984-%5Bcustomer-appreciation%5D-discount-early-orderers-2.html#post14168

+1 for BFL; I should make a two memes to celebrate this moment lol:


Top Line: Screw up shipping on Batch #1?

{insert picture of Avalon Pr0n}

Bottomr line: Raises the prices for Batch #2


Top Line: BFL Delays Batch 1 ASICS for chip redsign

[Insert pic of BFL_Josh with empty box]

Bottom Line: Still manages to cut prices for early adopters
(insert optional victory text) and delivers before the of Avalon batch #1
 

[nathanrees19]

[creativex]

That seems a bit revisionist.

Saying the first guy "screws up shipping" is being remarkably charitable to guy 1...to say the very least.

The second guy moved his shipping date up. The price was set to increase to $1999 long ago as I recall.

...but hey, don't let the facts get in the way.

[nbtcminer]

...but hey, don't let the facts get in the way.

@CreativeX - you've been here long enough to know that this is how you're supposed to argue on the forums, don't 'cha know!

I do know...I just refuse to conform. Now if you'll excuse me I have an afternoon of ripping tags off pillows planned.

just use the ignore button for this kind of scum...

...but then I wouldn't get to read what you write?!?

I loled at both the memes and your response. Facts so far are that neither company has really shipped their first batch and that we're (as a community) are greatly anticipating their shipments. Having said that, I really would like to see both companies succeed; having one source for mining gear is not preferably as it would leave too much power in the hands of the manufacturer. 

[creativex]

...but hey, don't let the facts get in the way.

@CreativeX - you've been here long enough to know that this is how you're supposed to argue on the forums, don't 'cha know!

I do know...I just refuse to conform. Now if you'll excuse me I have an afternoon of ripping tags off pillows planned.

just use the ignore button for this kind of scum...

...but then I wouldn't get to read what you write?!?

I loled at both the memes and your response. Facts so far are that neither company has really shipped their first batch and that we're (as a community) are greatly anticipating their shipments. Having said that, I really would like to see both companies succeed; having one source for mining gear is not preferably as it would leave too much power in the hands of the manufacturer.

Agreed. While currently I've only a vested interest in one of the two vendors referenced above, I do not believe a situation where one company has a monopoly would be good for BTC or me personally.

Just the same the old adage still holds up, that if you repeat something that's false enough times it is eventually perceived as fact. Perhaps the editor of that pic is simply unaware that Avalon announced a $1999 price tag for batch 2 units long ago and that $1499 is actually a discount to that price, or that they had actually moved their shipping date up.

[PuertoLibre]

The discounts on future orders for those who ordered in July and August have been announced.

First months orders will get 25% off a future order. (Order dates June 23rd - July 24th)
Second months orders will get 10% off a future order. (Order dates July 25th - August 25th)

The 25% and 10% apply up to the value of your original order(s).

Example 1: Original first month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $1500 worth of equipment, get $250 off the order.
Example 2: Original second month order for $1000 worth of equipment, next order for $500 worth of equipment, get $50 off the order.

We are doing it this way to prevent abuse such as someone ordering a Jalapeno, then getting 25% off the next order and ordering a Mini Rig.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/984-%5Bcustomer-appreciation%5D-discount-early-orderers-2.html#post14168

So much for "steep" discounts.

Next, they will say they aren't bumping the speed up to 80GH/s for the extra 45day wait period. (Like they did for the first 45 days)

I guess they came to their senses that if they gave a majority of their users a "real" steep discount, then they would have trouble covering the costs with Gen 2.

[PuertoLibre]

...but hey, don't let the facts get in the way.

@CreativeX - you've been here long enough to know that this is how you're supposed to argue on the forums, don't 'cha know!

I do know...I just refuse to conform. Now if you'll excuse me I have an afternoon of ripping tags off pillows planned.

just use the ignore button for this kind of scum...

...but then I wouldn't get to read what you write?!?

I loled at both the memes and your response. Facts so far are that neither company has really shipped their first batch and that we're (as a community) are greatly anticipating their shipments. Having said that, I really would like to see both companies succeed; having one source for mining gear is not preferably as it would leave too much power in the hands of the manufacturer. 

On that I think we can all agree on.

[Korbman]

@CreativeX - you've been here long enough to know that this is how you're supposed to argue on the forums, don't 'cha know!

I do know...I just refuse to conform. Now if you'll excuse me I have an afternoon of ripping tags off pillows planned.

Good plan. I've been working on the mattress tags

I do not believe a situation where one company has a monopoly would be good for BTC or me personally.

I completely agree. Was there ever a situation when a monopoly was good for a community or society (besides winning the board game, of course )? Competition has a habit of driving innovation and lower costs.

[CoinHoarder]

Yea, those poor poor first two month customers... they get their ASIC 4 months ahead of later customers, and then get to mine at low difficulty before the network implodes on itself making a ton of money... I truly pity them. I guess we better give them a discount on future products, that will fix the error. The later customers are the ones getting screwed here, lol to give discounts to the first 2 months... those guys are going to make a killing anyways.....  

[repentance]

Yea, those poor poor first two month customers... they get their ASIC 4 months ahead of later customers, and then get to mine at low difficulty before the network implodes on itself making a ton of money... I truly pity them. I guess we better give them a discount on future products, that will fix the error. The later customers are the ones getting screwed here, lol to give discounts to the first 2 months... those guys are going to make a killing anyways.....  

Josh has actually explained BFL's reasoning on doing it this way.  Essentially, it's that the people who ordered in the first two months are being compensated for not having their units before the block reward halved.  He maintains that customers who ordered later will be no more disadvantaged than they would have been had BFL delivered on time (because the block reward would have halved by the time they got their units and difficulty would have increased after the shipping of the first batch of orders anyway).

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/984-%5Bcustomer-appreciation%5D-discount-early-orderers-5.html#post14252

[Korbman]

Yea, those poor poor first two month customers... [...] I guess we better give them a discount on future products, that will fix the error.

Yeah, we definitely don't deserve any discounts after waiting 8 months and sitting through 3 (or was it 4..) postponements

And..

Josh has actually explained BFL's reasoning on doing it this way.  Essentially, it's that the people who ordered in the first two months are being compensated for not having their units before the block reward halved.  He maintains that customers who ordered later will be no more disadvantaged than they would have been had BFL delivered on time (because the block reward would have halved by the time they got their units and difficulty would have increased after the shipping of the first batch of orders anyway).

This.

I was typing this up as well, but it seems Repentance stated it better than I could

[CoinHoarder]

Josh has actually explained BFL's reasoning on doing it this way.  Essentially, it's that the people who ordered in the first two months are being compensated for not having their units before the block reward halved.  He maintains that customers who ordered later will be no more disadvantaged than they would have been had BFL delivered on time (because the block reward would have halved by the time they got their units and difficulty would have increased after the shipping of the first batch of orders anyway).

I read their reasoning, it still makes little sense, later customers were screwed just as much.

How are later customers not effected by BFL delaying 4 months? They would have had their ASIC already if they started shipping in October like they were supposed to. Because of their mistakes, there will now be hundreds of Avalon ASICs released before later customers even get their ASIC, thus increasing difficulty and costing them each money (maybe about 2 months of avalon-free network profits.)

EDIT: You guys are first two month order holders, making you biased. I on the other hand have no orders from BFL at the moment. If I was a later BFL customer I would be pissed.

[repentance]

I was typing this up as well, but it seems Repentance stated it better than I could

For the record, I'm not necessarily endorsing it - just explaining it.  Obviously it's a scheme which only benefits those who order additional units from BFL before the vouchers expire, so people have to spend more money with BFL in order to receive any compensation.  It's a simple model from BFL's point of view and one which will stimulate more sales.

You guys are first two month order holders, making you biased. I on the other hand have no orders from BFL at the moment. If I was a later BFL customer I would be pissed.

No I'm not.  I think ASIC vendors are the only ones who'll benefit from the mining hardware arms race and miners themselves are going to just get locked into a vicious cycle of having to spend more and more money on hardware to retain the same share of the mining pie.  That's one reason I think the fanboy-ism is so ridiculous.  The arrival of ASICs will effectively lock many people out of mining and that has implications for Bitcoin as a whole.

[Beyondo]

Josh has actually explained BFL's reasoning on doing it this way.  Essentially, it's that the people who ordered in the first two months are being compensated for not having their units before the block reward halved.  He maintains that customers who ordered later will be no more disadvantaged than they would have been had BFL delivered on time (because the block reward would have halved by the time they got their units and difficulty would have increased after the shipping of the first batch of orders anyway).

I read their reasoning, it still makes little sense, later customers were screwed just as much.

How are later customers not effected by BFL delaying 4 months? They would have had their ASIC already if they started shipping in October like they were supposed to. Because of their mistakes, there will now be hundreds of Avalon ASICs released before later customers even get their ASIC, thus increasing difficulty and costing them each money (maybe about 2 months of avalon-free network profits.)

EDIT: You guys are first two month order holders, making you biased. I on the other hand have no orders from BFL at the moment. If I was a later BFL customer I would be pissed.

Were you ordering in the confusion on day 1? No?  So you didn't understand the frenzy and worry that people had.  Everybody moved their $ into BTC so they could pay.  I didn't even bother to fuck around with Dwolla/MtGox which was having 1 month delays at some point.  I just paid a flat 209 BTC for an SC Single - which now is the equivalent of $25x208 - that's over $5k.  Sure many say you count the hedge, but at that time BTC was the only payment they said they would take on day #1.  After a couple days people were able to pay with wire payments but even that was confusing as to whether payment date or order date would count as purchase time.

I tried to get into the clusterfuck that was Avalon both times and failed.

Why not complain about those who mined thousands of coins with CPUs back in the day...

[Unacceptable]

Josh has actually explained BFL's reasoning on doing it this way.  Essentially, it's that the people who ordered in the first two months are being compensated for not having their units before the block reward halved.  He maintains that customers who ordered later will be no more disadvantaged than they would have been had BFL delivered on time (because the block reward would have halved by the time they got their units and difficulty would have increased after the shipping of the first batch of orders anyway).

I read their reasoning, it still makes little sense, later customers were screwed just as much.

How are later customers not effected by BFL delaying 4 months? They would have had their ASIC already if they started shipping in October like they were supposed to. Because of their mistakes, there will now be hundreds of Avalon ASICs released before later customers even get their ASIC, thus increasing difficulty and costing them each money (maybe about 2 months of avalon-free network profits.)

EDIT: You guys are first two month order holders, making you biased. I on the other hand have no orders from BFL at the moment. If I was a later BFL customer I would be pissed.

Were you ordering in the confusion on day 1? No?  So you didn't understand the frenzy and worry that people had.  Everybody moved their $ into BTC so they could pay.  I didn't even bother to fuck around with Dwolla/MtGox which was having 1 month delays at some point.  I just paid a flat 209 BTC for an SC Single - which now is the equivalent of $25x208 - that's over $5k.  Sure many say you count the hedge, but at that time BTC was the only payment they said they would take on day #1.  After a couple days people were able to pay with wire payments but even that was confusing as to whether payment date or order date would count as purchase time.

I tried to get into the clusterfuck that was Avalon both times and failed.

Why not complain about those who mined thousands of coins with CPUs back in the day...

+1

I had to juggle several accounts to get the BTC ready to order on day 1,but instead It took several more hours for me get  it together.So I got in on day 2 instead,it was a mad race for me 

It's not our or BFL's fault you didn't get to order in the first month or 2................We should be rewarded for our patience & sacrifice 

[hardcore-fs]

Maybe it would be better if josh sticks to arguing about how much Electricity he has save you by not shipping early....... even tie it into something about saving the Whales,  Everybody loves whales (except maybe the Japanese).

The block halving is basically irrelevant... the fact is that people were promised delivery, so for some people there has been a loss of income based on the fact that they have not been mining... even worse are the people who  sold their equipment ready for BFL.

Let us also not forget that Fantasy boy has NOT EVEN delivered any kit yet, but is already moving onto his next project of corporate mining.......

[Inspector 2211]

Josh just updated his status thread: The chips have arrived at the bumping facility.

[PuertoLibre]

Point is, they (BFL) short changed and shafted their customers. Giving discounts to some and a big FU to the September till now customers.

You don't have to be a genius to see that.

[Beyondo]

I had skin in BFLs game and when I saw Foundry/Garzik get those beasts I was mad as hell.  Hey, I just misplaced over 200BTC for what - to see another company beat me to the punch.  And then they were getting ready to offer a second batch.  Man did I really feel bent over.  Then comes the news that supposedly we will be getting our unicorn blood made machines and now all is right.... no wait, I now need to bitch about others.

You don't see people with 09/12/12 orders complaining that people with 09/28/12 orders had to pay less in BTC because the BTC exchange rate went up.  Do people who buy rookie year cards after some sports figure authority becomes famous complain that others got said card cheaper.

BFL is choosing to reward those who got in very early. Why not bitch that the FPGA hashers are getting an unfair advantage because they were able to hash more with their devices and recoup more of their investment.  Unfortunately they need to draw the line with the goodies somewhere.  Are people going to bitch if the September + orders end up fixing a glitch seen in the early releases?  What if they hash better? 

[creativex]

Aren't they merely giving some early investors a discount on future purchases? If so isn't this also of diminishing value given the lengthy delays that have allowed Avalon to ship first, and someone(likely ASICMiner) to get 1.1TH+ hashing ahead of them?

[The-Real-Link]

Josh just updated his status thread: The chips have arrived at the bumping facility.

Bumping this to the new page so people can see it if they missed it.

The Bumping Facility should start processing the chips on the 14th.  Whether that's due to a queue delay or something else, who knows.  But they should be in and out soon enough and onto the next step.

Thank you.  It is indeed confirmed on their update page.  Thanks Josh.

[repentance]

Josh just updated his status thread: The chips have arrived at the bumping facility.

Bumping this to the new page so people can see it if they missed it.

The Bumping Facility should start processing the chips on the 14th.  Whether that's due to a queue delay or something else, who knows.  But they should be in and out soon enough and onto the next step.

Thank you.  It is indeed confirmed on their update page.  Thanks Josh.

Josh's recent posts have said that the earliest the bumping facility will process BFL's order is 14 February. 

We will hopefully hear from the bumping facility tonight or tomorrow with regards to them, but I do not expect any movement on it until the 14th at the earliest.

What's not clear is how any slip in the bumping facility schedule will affect the other steps.  Josh said they'd give people at least 7 days notice to ship back their FPGAs, so that should happen in the next couple of days if they're going to meet the 22 February target date.

[nathanrees19]

What's not clear is how any slip in the bumping facility schedule will affect the other steps.  Josh said they'd give people at least 7 days notice to ship back their FPGAs, so that should happen in the next couple of days if they're going to meet the 22 February target date.

I'm guessing that they're waiting for a chip to get to an engineer to perform functional tests.

[Evan]

What's not clear is how any slip in the bumping facility schedule will affect the other steps.  Josh said they'd give people at least 7 days notice to ship back their FPGAs, so that should happen in the next couple of days if they're going to meet the 22 February target date.

I'm guessing that they're waiting for a chip to get to an engineer to perform functional tests.

I will do a destructive analysis on this as soon as someone gives me a failed chip

[wormbog]

Josh just updated his status thread: The chips have arrived at the bumping facility.

Bumping this to the new page so people can see it if they missed it.

The Bumping Facility should start processing the chips on the 14th.  Whether that's due to a queue delay or something else, who knows.  But they should be in and out soon enough and onto the next step.

Thank you.  It is indeed confirmed on their update page.  Thanks Josh.

Josh's recent posts have said that the earliest the bumping facility will process BFL's order is 14 February. 

We will hopefully hear from the bumping facility tonight or tomorrow with regards to them, but I do not expect any movement on it until the 14th at the earliest.

What's not clear is how any slip in the bumping facility schedule will affect the other steps.  Josh said they'd give people at least 7 days notice to ship back their FPGAs, so that should happen in the next couple of days if they're going to meet the 22 February target date.

According to the timeline, FPGA tradeins will be notified when the final unit assembly and testing is underway.

[RoboCoder]

Because I am a complete noob when it comes to the low-level hardware production process...

I know that multiple chips are "placed" on a wafer.

What exactly is done at the bumping facility - is this the part where they put the chips in a "package" with the pins? or am i way off.

I would really like to understand the process so i can understand what the timeframe might be.

Thanks!

[SchmalzTech]

Because I am a complete noob when it comes to the low-level hardware production process...

I know that multiple chips are "placed" on a wafer.

What exactly is done at the bumping facility - is this the part where they put the chips in a "package" with the pins? or am i way off.

I would really like to understand the process so i can understand what the timeframe might be.

Thanks!

From what I understand, it is where they place solder (or similar substance) bumps on the pads on the edges of the silicon to prepare the die for packaging the chips.

[CoinHoarder]

The arrival of ASICs will effectively lock many people out of mining and that has implications for Bitcoin as a whole.

True. I won't be mining (bitcoins) any time soon, and nor do I have any plans to.

All the shady ASIC companies can go f themselves as far as I'm concerned.

I don't even know why I still hang out in this sub forum. At one point I had 7 SC singles pre ordered, but they have long since been refunded.

I guess I just enjoy the soap opera..

[PuertoLibre]

Because I am a complete noob when it comes to the low-level hardware production process...

I know that multiple chips are "placed" on a wafer.

What exactly is done at the bumping facility - is this the part where they put the chips in a "package" with the pins? or am i way off.

I would really like to understand the process so i can understand what the timeframe might be.

Thanks!

From what I understand, it is where they place solder (or similar substance) bumps on the pads on the edges of the silicon to prepare the die for packaging the chips.

[kev7112001]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

[repentance]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

No, it's not a problem - it does that for everyone.  Be aware, though, that if you're not in the US you may have to pay taxes/duty to collect your unit when it arrives in the destination country.

[kev7112001]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

No, it's not a problem - it does that for everyone.  Be aware, though, that if you're not in the US you may have to pay taxes/duty to collect your unit when it arrives in the destination country.

I'm in the US so Im good then

[Korbman]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

No, it's not a problem - it does that for everyone. 

Not everyone. I haven't paid a tax on my orders, only $34 shipping. I've paid through both PayPal and Bitcoins...so maybe that makes a difference?

[polrpaul]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

No, it's not a problem - it does that for everyone. 

Not everyone. I haven't paid a tax on my orders, only $34 shipping. I've paid through both PayPal and Bitcoins...so maybe that makes a difference?

I think you misread Korbman - "it does that for everyone" meaning nobody pays for tax upon checkout.

[Korbman]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

No, it's not a problem - it does that for everyone. 

Not everyone. I haven't paid a tax on my orders, only $34 shipping. I've paid through both PayPal and Bitcoins...so maybe that makes a difference?

I think you misread Korbman - "it does that for everyone" meaning nobody pays for tax upon checkout.

It seems I have! Oops haha. Oh well, that's what I get for getting on the forums right after I wake up

[2weiX]

so. since i avoid the bfl forums - how do i get that discount voucher?

[Korbman]

so. since i avoid the bfl forums - how do i get that discount voucher?

If I recall correctly, BFL will email the vouchers out.


In other BFL forum news:

12 Feb 2013

The chips have been delivered by FedEx to the bumping facility. We will hopefully hear from the bumping facility tonight or tomorrow with regards to them, but I do not expect any movement on it until the 14th at the earliest.

But... they were here and waiting, so the biggest hurdle in terms of delivery has been achieved.

[bitcoindaddy]

well I ordered a BFL SC it added $114 tax on top of the 1299 but when I checked out it was not added is this a problem?

No, it's not a problem - it does that for everyone. 

Not everyone. I haven't paid a tax on my orders, only $34 shipping. I've paid through both PayPal and Bitcoins...so maybe that makes a difference?

I think you misread Korbman - "it does that for everyone" meaning nobody pays for tax upon checkout.

When you change your own location (State) to something other than Kansas, it will remove the tax from the listing.

so. since i avoid the bfl forums - how do i get that discount voucher?

BFL will include the voucher with the equipment shipment. So it will go out with your original order.

[1l1l11ll1l]

"14 Feb 2013 Update

I am told that the bumping facility has started working on our order as of yesterday(!). Although I'm seeking clarification as to whether that means the actual bumping process has started or if they are still working on the NRE for the bumping, to be completed sometime between today and Monday. When I have clarification on this, I will make another post... but in either case, the chips are at the bumping facility and the bumping facility is working on them in some fashion.

I have no updates on the timeline as of yet until I hear back as to when the bumping will be complete."


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status.html

[smoothie]

I am just curious what the next excuse is...

"Bumping facility was robbed only leaving the boxes the chips came in and some mysterious fans that were placed in the boxes."

 

[tvbcof]

I am just curious what the next excuse is...

"Bumping facility was robbed only leaving the boxes the chips came in and some mysterious fans that were placed in the boxes."

 

I'd go with something like "The mean bad government confiscated all our chips."  That would explain why they have zero which can be proven to work, and also would deflect rage away from their poor abused selves.

An added advantage is that they could also string 'customers' along for a few more month with stories about how their lawyers are about to make a breakthrough in return of the property and so forth.  I think that most of BFL's 'customers' could probably be kept on the line for years judging by the past performance.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I am just curious what the next excuse is...

"Bumping facility was robbed only leaving the boxes the chips came in and some mysterious fans that were placed in the boxes."

 

I'd go with something like "The mean bad government confiscated all our chips."  That would explain why they have zero which can be proven to work, and also would deflect rage away from their poor abused selves.

An added advantage is that they could also string 'customers' along for a few more month with stories about how their lawyers are about to make a breakthrough in return of the property and so forth.  I think that most of BFL's 'customers' could probably be kept on the line for years judging by the past performance.

<Before I read post 112, I wish to reply to this, post 111.>

With "so forth" consisting of Mt Gox safeguarding the chips, releasing them once the original true owners have been identified after providing proper paperwork.

[Beans]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

[smoothie]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

[Beans]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

[repentance]

An update on what's going on at the bumping facility is way overdue.

[Xian01]

An update on what's going on at the bumping facility is way overdue.

I know right ?! I'm sure they have been slaving away for us all weekend...

[luffy]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

i will gladly be a beta tester :p
there is no time for testing unfortunately. the first rigs will produce all the money

[Beans]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

i will gladly be a beta tester :p
there is no time for testing unfortunately. the first rigs will produce all the money

A little more waiting is a small price to pay if the alternative is were all screwed. I don't see how they could be certain it worked without testing one. I'm not talking about user testing..

[repentance]

A little more waiting is a small price to pay if the alternative is were all screwed. I don't see how they could be certain it worked without testing one. I'm not talking about user testing..

They are being tested, albeit only for a day plus a short burn-in before shipping.

- 2 days in bumping facility
- Transport to substrate and packaging
- 1 - 2 days for substrate and packaging
- Transport to assembly house
- < 24 hours at assembly house
- ~1 day for chip verification/testing
- Transport to Kansas City
- Bulk assembly / send out demo units
- Ship bulk units

Remember that the next 6,000 chips don't have all the layers completed yet.  Those chips are their back up plan if this first batch fail (and yes, there would be a further delay).

[smoothie]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

I agree here. Testing should be done on small quantities (i.e. a prototype ...DUH). BFL must have some magic potion that allows them to divert the normal development process in any new technology.

Unicorns, leprechauns, pots of golds, lucky charms, rainbows!

[crazyates]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

I agree here. Testing should be done on small quantities (i.e. a prototype ...DUH). BFL must have some magic potion that allows them to divert the normal development process in any new technology.

Unicorns, leprechauns, pots of golds, lucky charms, rainbows!

You remember that little fiasco where they were using a QFN chip, but then when they tested it, the plastic couldn't conduct the heat out of the chip and into the heatsink? Well, lets just think about that for a second. They had chips, and they were even testing the chips on one of their boards. If they really had a faulty design, and the chips really couldn't hash, then they would have known about it in October.

[tvbcof]

You remember that little fiasco where they were using a QFN chip, but then when they tested it, the plastic couldn't conduct the heat out of the chip and into the heatsink? Well, lets just think about that for a second. They had chips, and they were even testing the chips on one of their boards. If they really had a faulty design, and the chips really couldn't hash, then they would have known about it in October.

I always figured that it was most likely that the whole story was made up out of whole cloth.  Just a set of words chosen because it was most effective at placating the community and keeping the pre-order funds rolling in.  In case you've not noticed anyone can say anything on the Internet, and without some solid evidence and proof, the words are pretty much useless.

[loshia]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

I agree here. Testing should be done on small quantities (i.e. a prototype ...DUH). BFL must have some magic potion that allows them to divert the normal development process in any new technology.

Unicorns, leprechauns, pots of golds, lucky charms, rainbows!

You remember that little fiasco where they were using a QFN chip, but then when they tested it, the plastic couldn't conduct the heat out of the chip and into the heatsink? Well, lets just think about that for a second. They had chips, and they were even testing the chips on one of their boards. If they really had a faulty design, and the chips really couldn't hash, then they would have known about it in October.

They would have known that is more easy to change pcb and heat sink instead right?
Sounds logical not to throw away the WORKING CHIPS with the money paid to produce them? And miss the chance to show a working video of "overheating chips" just for a seconds to suck Avalon and BTCFPGA potential customers  - roughly about 2+ million USD. I doubt that they are so damn stupid to miss that chance what about you?
But yeah it sounds more logical compared to TOM famous excuse of powers of two for those that remember that ridiculous post. The most funny thing is that particular post brought to Tom/BTCFPGA more orders
I can say that BFL learned a lesson and are doing good compared to to tom. But we as a community are not learning unfortunately

[smoothie]

There is no hard evidence they ever had any chips back in October now is there? Video? Witnesses?

People are still forgetting that all that has really been said by josh...are JUST WORDS.

Oh right we cant forget the box of fans he brought to CES.

Other than that, that is all the "evidence" there really exists.

Why is BFL so quiet? Aren't they supposed to be shipping already? Or at least assembling units? Why no pix? Why no updates?

Oh wait...let me guess Leprechauns stole the magic chips and shoved them up a unicorns ass? 

[Beans]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

I agree here. Testing should be done on small quantities (i.e. a prototype ...DUH). BFL must have some magic potion that allows them to divert the normal development process in any new technology.

Unicorns, leprechauns, pots of golds, lucky charms, rainbows!

You remember that little fiasco where they were using a QFN chip, but then when they tested it, the plastic couldn't conduct the heat out of the chip and into the heatsink? Well, lets just think about that for a second. They had chips, and they were even testing the chips on one of their boards. If they really had a faulty design, and the chips really couldn't hash, then they would have known about it in October.

I'm not sure how they tested the heat, but if they had a hashing ASIC they wouldn't be hiding it. They could have also figured out the spec for the unit by now if they had one. It's more likely they just skipped testing and went straight to production hoping everything works out.

[PuertoLibre]

There is no hard evidence they ever had any chips back in October now is there? Video? Witnesses?

People are still forgetting that all that has really been said by josh...are JUST WORDS.

Oh right we cant forget the box of fans he brought to CES.

Other than that, that is all the "evidence" there really exists.

Why is BFL so quiet? Aren't they supposed to be shipping already? Or at least assembling units? Why no pix? Why no updates?

Oh wait...let me guess Leprechauns stole the magic chips and shoved them up a unicorns ass? 

Perhaps the chips never made it in time for "Kano's Press and Pony Show"?

[smoothie]

There is no hard evidence they ever had any chips back in October now is there? Video? Witnesses?

People are still forgetting that all that has really been said by josh...are JUST WORDS.

Oh right we cant forget the box of fans he brought to CES.

Other than that, that is all the "evidence" there really exists.

Why is BFL so quiet? Aren't they supposed to be shipping already? Or at least assembling units? Why no pix? Why no updates?

Oh wait...let me guess Leprechauns stole the magic chips and shoved them up a unicorns ass? 

Perhaps the chips never made it in time for "Kano's Press and Pony Show"?

Ever heard of a bribe?

I wouldnt be surprised if Kano was bribed to speak good about BFL blah blah blah.

[repentance]

Josh has become very skilled at delaying updates which are due at the end of the week until after the weekend and those which are due at the beginning of the week until the end of the week.

He was "hoping to find out" on Saturday whether the bumping facility was actually processing BFL's order or just preparing the equipment in order to process it. 

Even if he announced today that the chips have left the bumping facility for the packaging facility, it's pretty obvious that BFL is not going to ship this week.  The question is how long Josh believes he can put off announcing another delay before BFL customers lose their shit.

Is there even going to be anything to show kano apart from boxes and fans before his return flight?

The way things are shaping up, there's likely to be at least one more difficulty jump before BFL customers start receiving their orders.

[meowmeowbrowncow]

It seems strange to me that they don't have a working product. Making a large order and just hoping that everything works out seems risky. I don't see how they can be so sure everything will work correctly.

This is a new age....throw tons of money at a business that has no working product for months....just have "FAITH"

I'm only worried about mass producing something before testing it.

I agree here. Testing should be done on small quantities (i.e. a prototype ...DUH). BFL must have some magic potion that allows them to divert the normal development process in any new technology.

Unicorns, leprechauns, pots of golds, lucky charms, rainbows!

You remember that little fiasco where they were using a QFN chip, but then when they tested it, the plastic couldn't conduct the heat out of the chip and into the heatsink? Well, lets just think about that for a second. They had chips, and they were even testing the chips on one of their boards. If they really had a faulty design, and the chips really couldn't hash, then they would have known about it in October.

I'm not sure how they tested the heat, but if they had a hashing ASIC they wouldn't be hiding it. They could have also figured out the spec for the unit by now if they had one. It's more likely they just skipped testing and went straight to production hoping everything works out.

The fact that BFL was able to switch package types mid-stream might indicate that they never had a full production of wafers.


Some of the heat testing places use ceramic elements to mimic the thermal load and get a general sense of how the board and it's ancillary components will perform.
(and IIRC this thermal testing only took place last November)


My suspicion is both are true.  I chuckle when Josh says, "We've done the impossible!," by changing the packaging type.  When this most likely means that BFL was never anywhere close to published timelines ever.

[PuertoLibre]

The question is how long Josh believes he can put off announcing another delay before BFL customers lose their shit.

Is there even going to be anything to show kano apart from boxes and fans before his return flight?

The way things are shaping up, there's likely to be at least one more difficulty jump before BFL customers start receiving their orders.

Ahh, I think he will say either:

The "week" of the 27th.

or

The Fifth week of February....oh shit...February only had 28 days...FUCK!

Ah, but if he says the week of the 27th....he could make people wait all the way until the 2nd.

[repentance]

Some of the heat testing places use ceramic elements to mimic the thermal load and get a general sense of how the board and it's ancillary components will perform.
(and IIRC this thermal testing only took place last November)

Didn't Josh say they ran simulations?

[DontMineMe]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

This ^^

Some of you are blind aren't you? There hasn't been really any tests on the BFL "chips" that are "on the way to the US".

Hurry up and WAIT lol

Suckerz....  

I have to agree. I just posted a thread about this (that was deleted for some reason). These chips still have to make their way across the world to the US (i'm willing to bet they're not overnight airmailed....), assembled, and tested. That process alone will take weeks, and much longer if there's any sort of issues (let's face it, this is untested product - there will be issues). I was very late to the party (order number 18k), and i honestly don't expect to receive mine until well after the summer. I won't be able to get in early, or recoup my investment quickly, but let's face it - a jalapeno is going to be the minimum you'll need to make any sort of profit mining here very soon.

You just gave me a shot of reality , I don't like it. I hope you are wrong!

[jojo69]

meanwhile, network hash grows at 2% a day...I have been one of the patient ones, but this is starting to tick me off

[tvbcof]

meanwhile, network hash grows at 2% a day...I have been one of the patient ones, but this is starting to tick me off

'patient ones' is a more charitable description than what others may be tempted to use

[repentance]

Someone apply for the Communications Director - North America job at BFL so customers can get timely, accurate updates.

http://butterflylabs.com/jobs/

[crazyates]

For those following the timeline:

Transport wafers same day to bumping facility - DONE
2 days in bumping facility - DONE?
Transport to substrate and packaging - I'm guessing they're somewhere
1 - 2 days for substrate and packaging - between these two steps?
Transport to assembly house
< 24 hours at assembly house
~1 day for chip verification/testing
Transport to Kansas City
Bulk assembly / send out demo units
Ship bulk units

[Fjordbit]

Per Josh, they aren't done at the bumping facility. Maybe tomorrow, maybe the next day.

[repentance]

Per Josh, they aren't done at the bumping facility. Maybe tomorrow, maybe the next day.

Hope kano can change his return flight then because it doesn't sound like there's going to be much to see in Kansas City this week.

[greyhawk]

Per Josh, they aren't done at the bumping facility. Maybe tomorrow, maybe the next day.

BFL_Josh - 02-18-2013 06:25 PM -- Ok, I just got a call.. I guess the guy that we normally talk to is off for Presidents Day... forgot it was a holiday today, so that's why we haven't gotten a call back from
him. We have a call in elsewhere, but it's getting a bit late now. However, presuming the chips are done tomorrow, we'll be able to test the chip out before it's packaged, so we should know pretty much everything we need to know fairly soon and start the process on the other 6 wafers and the bulk of the chips after that.

[MrTeal]

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/85-perennial-question-when-will-my-order-ship.html

As our ASIC chips make their way through the final packaging before they are joined to the boards and assembled into BitForce miners, we are having shipping cartons delivered and assembly people ready to complete the final step. If all goes well we will ship the first units this month. Those are the orders made last June. If you order now, because of the backlog of orders, you may not get your order until May or June of this year. We are not good enough prophets to tell you exactly what day your order will ship. If you ordered between June of last year and February of this year, your order will most likely be shipped before June of this year. We will update our shipping expectations once we have shipped out a few and see how fast this whole process goes. Please continue to check this blog, since I will be telling the ORDER DATE which we are shipping every day.

Sweet, if you ordered between June last year and Feb this year, your order should ship by June. Most likely.

[tvbcof]

I am just curious what the next excuse is...

"Bumping facility was robbed only leaving the boxes the chips came in and some mysterious fans that were placed in the boxes."

 

I'd go with something like "The mean bad government confiscated all our chips."  That would explain why they have zero which can be proven to work, and also would deflect rage away from their poor abused selves.

An added advantage is that they could also string 'customers' along for a few more month with stories about how their lawyers are about to make a breakthrough in return of the property and so forth.  I think that most of BFL's 'customers' could probably be kept on the line for years judging by the past performance.

<Before I read post 112, I wish to reply to this, post 111.>

With "so forth" consisting of Mt Gox safeguarding the chips, releasing them once the original true owners have been identified after providing proper paperwork.

I just thought of another one.  How about: "Damn bumping facility screwed up and fried the whole batch!"

If people didn't believe that every single one chip got nuked, they might be able to come up with an Avalon and sand the markings off it.

I do like the idea of trying to extract an identity theft kit from the victims though.  Not sure how to work that one in.

[-ck]

Hope kano can change his return flight then because it doesn't sound like there's going to be much to see in Kansas City this week.

Kano cannot change his plans as he has to leave on Saturday.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Hope kano can change his return flight then because it doesn't sound like there's going to be much to see in Kansas City this week.

Kano cannot change his plans as he has to leave on Saturday.

...

FYI

I've got my plane tickets to BFL - Kansas City today (email booked digital ticket details from the travel agent) arranged by Josh
So my flight to the USA, leaving Sydney on the 17th Feb (my time) - to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd.

... so I going from Oz (Aus) to Kansas (City) ... isn't that back to front?

[repentance]

It's Wednesday afternoon here in Australia now.  If kano's going to be back here in Australia on Saturday 23rd, then he hasn't got much time left in the US - the journey back takes the best part of a day.

[PuertoLibre]

It's Wednesday afternoon here in Australia now.  If kano's going to be back here in Australia on Saturday 23rd, then he hasn't got much time left in the US - the journey back takes the best part of a day.

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130223T09&p0=405&msg=Kano%27s+return+flight

[repentance]

It's Wednesday afternoon here in Australia now.  If kano's going to be back here in Australia on Saturday 23rd, then he hasn't got much time left in the US - the journey back takes the best part of a day.

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130223T09&p0=405&msg=Kano%27s+return+flight

That's wrong.  In order to arrive back here on 23 February Australian time, he'd have to leave the US either late Friday night or early Saturday morning our time at the latest (it's a really long flight).  If he was to leave the US midnight Friday our time, that's less than 54 hours away - unless the bumping facility pulls it's finger out, he's not even going to see any chips get tested.

[PuertoLibre]

It's Wednesday afternoon here in Australia now.  If kano's going to be back here in Australia on Saturday 23rd, then he hasn't got much time left in the US - the journey back takes the best part of a day.

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130223T09&p0=405&msg=Kano%27s+return+flight

That's wrong.  In order to arrive back here on 23 February Australian time, he'd have to leave the US either late Friday night or early Saturday morning our time at the latest (it's a really long flight).  If he was to leave the US midnight Friday our time, that's less than 54 hours away.

What date and time should I set it too?

I thought the tickets were for the moment you leave to get on the plane and not when you arrive? Could you clarify?

[repentance]

I thought the tickets were for the moment you leave to get on the plane and not when you arrive? Could you clarify?

He said "...to be back here in Aus again on the 23rd." which suggests he'll be back in Australia on 23 February.

2355 Australian time on Saturday 23rd (which would just barely count as arriving back here on Saturday) is 0655 Kansas City time on Saturday 23rd - but that's the time he'd be arriving back in Australia, not the time he'd be leaving the US.  The flight is at least 18 hours and could be more depending on what route he's taking, so he'd have to depart Kansas City by 1300 Friday Kansas City time - so set it to that.

[-ck]

Here you go, here are a handful of pics Kano has to show for his trip (note, no chips):
http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

[PuertoLibre]

Thanks for the explanation, the clock has been revised:

BFL sends Kano back, "Return To Sender"!

[PuertoLibre]

Nice trip so far. Noticed they are prepping the SC Minirigs with a supplementary power supply. (Didn't know they made those)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104054

At $89 it is economically priced.

[repentance]

Here you go, here are a handful of pics Kano has to show for his trip (note, no chips):
http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

Nice plane.

[PuertoLibre]

Here you go, here are a handful of pics Kano has to show for his trip (note, no chips):
http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

Nice plane.

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N793US

Confirmed flight path: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N793US

[stergium]

@puertolibre a personal question. even though i am a bfl customer and dont even know if i receive a paid (09/2012)product this year ( it sucks , yes i know it ...)  , havent YOU got tired of all this? I mean all the mocking and all of the endless arguing with that unbelievable person (i have worst worst for it but maybe another time) ...
Considering your ignore button is becoming even more yellowish that the day before.
Even i dont know if bfl is running for the hills or they have their chips soaking in unicorn blood ( pfff some people's arrogance is annoying) , but i am sicked of this situation.
Most of the time i dont want to read about it , much less to comment on it.
I remember that you were an avalon customer. Arent you a bit dissapointed of how you are being treated? Is this your way of venting?

[PuertoLibre]

@puertolibre a personal question. even though i am a bfl customer and dont even know if i receive a paid (09/2012)product this year ( it sucks , yes i know it ...)  , havent YOU got tired of all this? I mean all the mocking and all of the endless arguing with that unbelievable person (i have worst worst for it but maybe another time) ...

I have long been tired of it. I only come on these days to read up on Avalon and when I will receive mine.

I only sporadically post in the BFL threads anymore. I don't think anyone does actually.

To be very honest it is very boring these days. I don't see the point (anymore) in arguing with said person.

Considering your ignore button is becoming even more yellowish that the day before.

I actually cannot see it. I use one of the default skins of the forum (the ugly one). In that skin the forum's ignore picture is broken. So I am unaware of what the color of it is.

In either case, I don't believe the ignore button is very effective as other people will quote my text and it'll appear one way or the other. I also see that the Bitcoin community is very loose on friendships so there isn't much point to building up knowledge of who is for what.

I work on my computer at different times of the day and have multiple monitors to track different business. So when I get around to it, I leave one window open and that's how I notice the "going on's".

Like I mentioned before, the other turd is not interesting anymore. Avalons shipping is seemingly gonna take a while so there is not really much to check up on.

Even i dont know if bfl is running for the hills or they have their chips soaking in unicorn blood ( pfff some people's arrogance is annoying) , but i am sicked of this situation.
Most of the time i dont want to read about it , much less to comment on it.
I remember that you were an avalon customer. Arent you a bit dissapointed of how you are being treated? Is this your way of venting?

I am bothered by it.

Frankly I just want my Avalon to arrive so I can stop checking the forum every day. Thats what gets me into "fights" with the other turd.

If you check my recent posting I barely bother with the come backs anymore. It just seems like a waste of time these days.

------------------

Beyond that, I probably know just slightly more than the average Avalon customer. (perhaps not?)

So that keeps my temperament/venting in check as I keep checking for updates at different times of day and night. I expect the units will be arriving soon as the Customs backlog clears.

As for BFL, no one needs to pound the sand in their corner anymore. They seem to create a crater all on their own at every turn. If the chips fail to pass the test, it is "game over" as is said.

[poon-TANG]

LOL.  You "sporadically" post in the BFL threads. That's the best joke I've heard today. Dude your life revolves around the BFL threads. Just check any thread that mentions BFL and your there trolling. Shouldn't you be staring at you avalon rig mining away....oh wait.   

[SLok]

LOL.  You "sporadically" post in the BFL threads. That's the best joke I've heard today. Dude your life revolves around the BFL threads. Just check any thread that mentions BFL and your there trolling. Shouldn't you be staring at you avalon rig mining away....oh wait.   

From his last 20 posts there are 17 about BFL, the grumpy old guy has no life at all without this forum and it's BFL threads. Just like that Micon poker clown, seems Frizz23 died and reincarnated into him, the fool keeps making up accounts to promote his "CES video showing Micon is a fail" on the BFL forum. Practically always ending with him showing his anal fixation. Don't you just love that ignore button?

[stergium]

I just realised that you went so far as to check in the airplaine flight. With the best intentions to a fellow human, find a hobby , fast!

[crazyates]

I only come on these days to read up on Avalon and when I will receive mine.

I only sporadically post in the BFL threads anymore. I don't think anyone does actually.

I just realised that you went so far as to check in the airplaine flight. With the best intentions to a fellow human, find a hobby , fast!

From his last 20 posts there are 17 about BFL

ROFL "I swear I'm just here to check up on Avalon! I barely even look at the BFL threads! But when I do, I post in them nonstop, and I stalk Josh like it's my job."

Srsly who gives a fuck about Kano's airplane ride. A few pics and a nice shot of the hotel right behind their office was enough for me to prove it was real!

[SgtSpike]

Here you go, here are a handful of pics Kano has to show for his trip (note, no chips):
http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

"You're lost!"

[Nemesis]

junk coming out of my mouth

You dont have shame at all? lying though your teeth?


I bet the doctor in the delivery room slapped your mom when he saw you. Now he regretted not dropping you in a trash can.

[greyhawk]

You sound slightly uncivil. Wait riling up your nerves? Have a coke, relax.

There's nothing to worry about. Everything's cool. No reasons to get all up in arms.

It's not like, say, moderators are deleting posts of BFL customers asking where their ordered product is and...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145479.0

.... oh.... oh dear... 

[The-Real-Link]

Thanks Kano.  It's cool to see the operation at work even if they're just waiting for the chips.

Good luck to anyone waiting for Avalons as well.

[Gomeler]

That's a whole lot of SC Mini Rig cases. Kind of drives home exactly how high the difficulty is going to skyrocket when BFL gets around to shipping them.

[creativex]

You'd think they would've waited to fly someone across the globe until they had a product to demonstrate.

[repentance]

You'd think they would've waited to fly someone across the globe until they had a product to demonstrate.

As 22 February was their "worst case scenario", "if everything goes wrong" shipping date, I suspect that the plan was for kano to fly home with one of the first BFL units assembled.

Hopefully BFL has learned something about the dangers of setting target dates when you're directly controlling very few steps of the overall project and when you're placing a very small order compared to the average customer in the sector.

All these months later, none of us even know who the project manager/administrator is.  It's obviously not Josh or Jody.

[creativex]

You'd think they would've waited to fly someone across the globe until they had a product to demonstrate.

Hopefully BFL has learned something about the dangers of setting target dates when you're directly controlling very few steps of the overall project and when you're placing a very small order compared to the average customer in the sector.

Good one.

The problem is that accurate shipping estimates and continuing pre-order sales revenues are incompatible concepts. Nobody is this grotesquely incompetent. Avalon got a couple units out, ASICMiner is online, BFL needed something. Another nonsensical timeline gives them something to placate the faithful while difficulty continues to rise.

[repentance]

The problem is that accurate shipping estimates and continuing pre-order sales revenues are incompatible concepts.

While this is largely true, it doesn't explain the inability to meet a solid target date for Batch 1.  I think part of their problem is that once the date for completion of the chips slipped, any dates they had locked in for bumping and packaging couldn't be met and they then became dependent on those facilities being able to squeeze them in around other orders.  They're not AMD or Intel, and this isn't a millions of chips run, so they don't have the kind of leverage to get booked orders bumped for their urgent run.

In their shoes, I'd forget about assembling back-orders in-house.  Originally they thought they'd be able to quickly catch up on back orders if they contracted out assembly for batch 1 only.  That's clearly not going to be the case - people ordering now are looking at a delivery date 2-3 months away if everything goes well. 

It's no longer clear when BFL might be able to make the transition to an order turnaround time of less than a week.  They either need to stop taking new orders until they catch up or they need to accelerate their manufacturing process because inability to deliver quickly is going to affect the profitability of their units as everyone - including their own Batch 1 customers - brings more hashing power online. 

It will cost them a lot more to accelerate manufacturing, but that has to be weighed against sales lost due to their inability to deliver units in a known, reasonable time-frame.  A single ordered now could be worthless if delivered in June due to massive difficulty jumps over the next few months.  It's probably not even worth keeping Jalapenos in their product line after the second batch of 6,000 chips is completed and assembled. 

[PuertoLibre]

You sound slightly uncivil. Wait riling up your nerves? Have a coke, relax.

Yep, what greyhawk says.

@ BFL posse
<Sip> yep, buy some coke and get over it.

As you can see the Yes, Men clown posse has shown up.

Lets see,

There is Poon-Tang:
The guy who thinks on the BFL forums that any customers who ask about when they will receive their produce = a bunch of trolls.

Not a hardcore fanboi but close.

SloK, needs zero introduction:
Total Fanboi with BFL. Insults anyone who asks questions both on and off the BFL forum.

Sterigum,
I don't know too much about him but tends to favor BFL in the few posts that he does endeavor to type.

etc.

It's like someone ordered them to line up against a wall on command to form a unified front of objectionable stupidity.

----------------

To fill in the clueless posse I used to be an amateur investigator.My Google-fu is pretty weak. If you didn't know that you could pull up that information from publicly available resources....well that is pretty sad.

There's nothing to worry about. Everything's cool. No reasons to get all up in arms.

It's not like, say, moderators are deleting posts of BFL customers asking where their ordered product is and...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145479.0

.... oh.... oh dear...  

<Shrug>

[Clearfly]

Don't worry Puerto you will eventually get your Avalon once they start building them.
Now they have the funds from batch #2 to pay for them it shouldn't be too long now..........

[PuertoLibre]

Don't worry Puerto you will eventually get your Avalon once they start building them.
Now they have the funds from batch #2 to pay for them it shouldn't be too long now..........

I think everyone is waiting for this kind of notice!

[Monster Tent]

I am just curious what the next excuse is...

"Bumping facility was robbed only leaving the boxes the chips came in and some mysterious fans that were placed in the boxes."

 

I'd go with something like "The mean bad government confiscated all our chips."  That would explain why they have zero which can be proven to work, and also would deflect rage away from their poor abused selves.

An added advantage is that they could also string 'customers' along for a few more month with stories about how their lawyers are about to make a breakthrough in return of the property and so forth.  I think that most of BFL's 'customers' could probably be kept on the line for years judging by the past performance.

<Before I read post 112, I wish to reply to this, post 111.>

With "so forth" consisting of Mt Gox safeguarding the chips, releasing them once the original true owners have been identified after providing proper paperwork.

I just thought of another one.  How about: "Damn bumping facility screwed up and fried the whole batch!"

If people didn't believe that every single one chip got nuked, they might be able to come up with an Avalon and sand the markings off it.

I do like the idea of trying to extract an identity theft kit from the victims though.  Not sure how to work that one in.

They could say they spoke to a lawyer and he advised them that because the chips are considered to be minting money that they cant send them out to people without ID, because terrorists might mine bitcoins  

[Monster Tent]

The problem is that accurate shipping estimates and continuing pre-order sales revenues are incompatible concepts.

While this is largely true, it doesn't explain the inability to meet a solid target date for Batch 1.  I think part of their problem is that once the date for completion of the chips slipped, any dates they had locked in for bumping and packaging couldn't be met and they then became dependent on those facilities being able to squeeze them in around other orders.  They're not AMD or Intel, and this isn't a millions of chips run, so they don't have the kind of leverage to get booked orders bumped for their urgent run.

In their shoes, I'd forget about assembling back-orders in-house.  Originally they thought they'd be able to quickly catch up on back orders if they contracted out assembly for batch 1 only.  That's clearly not going to be the case - people ordering now are looking at a delivery date 2-3 months away if everything goes well. 

It's no longer clear when BFL might be able to make the transition to an order turnaround time of less than a week.  They either need to stop taking new orders until they catch up or they need to accelerate their manufacturing process because inability to deliver quickly is going to affect the profitability of their units as everyone - including their own Batch 1 customers - brings more hashing power online. 

It will cost them a lot more to accelerate manufacturing, but that has to be weighed against sales lost due to their inability to deliver units in a known, reasonable time-frame.  A single ordered now could be worthless if delivered in June due to massive difficulty jumps over the next few months.  It's probably not even worth keeping Jalapenos in their product line after the second batch of 6,000 chips is completed and assembled. 

By the time they deliver an SC single will need to be the price of a jalapeno to make it worth ordering.

[Clearfly]

Don't worry Puerto you will eventually get your Avalon once they start building them.
Now they have the funds from batch #2 to pay for them it shouldn't be too long now..........

I think everyone is waiting for this kind of notice!

I think they are, is that Unit 3?? or Unit 4?? 

[Homebrewman]

Don't worry Puerto you will eventually get your Avalon once they start building them.
Now they have the funds from batch #2 to pay for them it shouldn't be too long now..........

http://i46.tinypic.com/kbafr9.png

I think everyone is waiting for this kind of notice!

I think they are, is that Unit 3?? or Unit 4??  

3 or 4 or 100....
Anything is better than 0.

Not a fan boi of either, would be happy to get any good mining unit.

Just my  0.02BTC

[Beans]

I'm a little confused about what's in Chicago.. I thought they were going to KC then shipping out. Anyone know more about this?

[-ck]

That's a whole lot of SC Mini Rig cases. Kind of drives home exactly how high the difficulty is going to skyrocket when BFL gets around to shipping them.

Kano counted 89 MR cases in all... with lots of fans.

[stergium]

@puertolibre you 1) cannot copy paste information from what you see in your screen
2) did not follow my suggestion.
3) assume english is my native language? 
Well, continue to write whatever you want on anything that refers to bfl if that makes you a happier person.
I sincerely dont give a shit.
Sad people are sad and thats it. good luck with that. (and i wont even ask you how is your hashing monster doing... )

[PuertoLibre]

@puertolibre you 1) cannot copy paste information from what you see in your screen
2) did not follow my suggestion.
3) assume english is my native language?  
Well, continue to write whatever you want on anything that refers to bfl if that makes you a happier person.
I sincerely dont give a shit.
Sad people are sad and thats it. good luck with that. (and i wont even ask you how is your hashing monster doing... )

It hashed my pants?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145544.msg1544896#msg1544896
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145544.msg1544645#msg1544645
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=142098.msg1544898#msg1544898

[repentance]

I'm a little confused about what's in Chicago.. I thought they were going to KC then shipping out. Anyone know more about this?

The boards are being put together in Chicago.  The final assembly of the actual units is being done in Kansas City, which is where orders will be shipped from.

[2weiX]

I'm a little confused about what's in Chicago.. I thought they were going to KC then shipping out. Anyone know more about this?

The boards are being put together in Chicago.  The final assembly of the actual units is being done in Kansas City, which is where orders will be shipped from.

shipping to the EU plus customs pickup.... ~ 4 weeks.

[ewibit]

[/quote]
is this from Avalon?
(is this yours or from whom? - order Nr.?)
TIA

[Gomeler]

That's a whole lot of SC Mini Rig cases. Kind of drives home exactly how high the difficulty is going to skyrocket when BFL gets around to shipping them.

Kano counted 89 MR cases in all... with lots of fans.

Whew. The first few of those owners are going to be very happy customers. It'll be interesting to see the pay-off times for the first rig and the last rig out of the first batch. Regardless, I'm jealous of even that last rig owner. Hopefully the price drops later this year such that I can warrant purchasing one.

[RHA]

I think everyone is waiting for this kind of notice!

Don't pretend to have a DHL notice. We know you don't have. Trolling this thread won't help you.

[RHA]

Whew. The first few of those owners are going to be very happy customers. It'll be interesting to see the pay-off times for the first rig and the last rig out of the first batch. Regardless, I'm jealous of even that last rig owner. Hopefully the price drops later this year such that I can warrant purchasing one.

Don't be jealous. Remember, they had to shell out many money for Minirigs over a half year ago.
Yet no one of them is moaning here. They are serious men who understand development and production problems.
(Not like the ones who cry at every thread for their not ready Jalapeno or still not shipped Avalon.
 It's interesting the noisiest are the ones who preordered nothing.)

[Dalkore]

Whew. The first few of those owners are going to be very happy customers. It'll be interesting to see the pay-off times for the first rig and the last rig out of the first batch. Regardless, I'm jealous of even that last rig owner. Hopefully the price drops later this year such that I can warrant purchasing one.

Don't be jealous. Remember, they had to shell out many money for Minirigs over a half year ago.
Yet no one of them is moaning here. They are serious men who understand development and production problems.
(Not like the ones who cry at every thread for their not ready Jalapeno or still not shipped Avalon.
 It's interesting the noisiest are the ones who preordered nothing.)

Your correct to a point, but also, with BFL's business practices and lack of customer support, it really left a bad taste in people's mouths.   There is a way all these companies could of handled things that would not of left so many people bitter.    I reached out to BFL to help with communications but instead they chose the biggest ******* instead that really reflects their company conduct at this point.   Serious men, maybe, risk takers?  For sure.   I am just glad there is competition in the mining hardware market.  That made my day.

D

[Gomeler]

Whew. The first few of those owners are going to be very happy customers. It'll be interesting to see the pay-off times for the first rig and the last rig out of the first batch. Regardless, I'm jealous of even that last rig owner. Hopefully the price drops later this year such that I can warrant purchasing one.

Don't be jealous. Remember, they had to shell out many money for Minirigs over a half year ago.
Yet no one of them is moaning here. They are serious men who understand development and production problems.
(Not like the ones who cry at every thread for their not ready Jalapeno or still not shipped Avalon.
 It's interesting the noisiest are the ones who preordered nothing.)

Your correct to a point, but also, with BFL's business practices and lack of customer support, it really left a bad taste in people's mouths.   There is a way all these companies could of handled things that would not of left so many people bitter.    I reached out to BFL to help with communications but instead they chose the biggest ******* instead that really reflects their company conduct at this point.   Serious men, maybe, risk takers?  For sure.   I am just glad there is competition in the mining hardware market.  That made my day.

D

That sums it up nicely. I couldn't afford a SC Mini Rig but I could have purchased roughly half of one back in June-July. I wasn't willing to take the risk and if BFL pulls through I very well will be jealous of the people who were willing to blindly jump into the unknown. Fortune favors the bold.

[Micon]

Here you go, here are a handful of pics Kano has to show for his trip (note, no chips):
http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

Nice plane.

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N793US

Confirmed flight path: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N793US

ty to PuertoLibre for doing the heavy lifting in these threads, taking a lot of heat for being the voice of reason.

Here is one of those for $190k:
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/DIAMOND-DA40XL/2007-DIAMOND-DA40XL/1262934.htm


IMO the silence since 2/14 is deafening.  I mean, how hot was the bumping?  really no pix this time?  they prolly wouldn't let you take a pic of the soldering anyway.  And there is no way to take a pic after you get them back.  so you understand, no pix. 

ship pre-order monies.

[crazyates]

ty to PuertoLibre for doing the heavy lifting in these threads, taking a lot of heat for being the voice of reason.

.........

IMO the silence since 2/14 is deafening.  I mean, how hot was the bumping?  really no pix this time?  they prolly wouldn't let you take a pic of the soldering anyway.  And there is no way to take a pic after you get them back.  so you understand, no pix. 

ship pre-order monies.

ROFL I'll say it again: who cares about a fucking plane? It's completely useless information. And PuertoLibre as a voice or reason? What have you been smoking?

And as far as this "deafening silence", you realize that Josh posted an update several hours ago, and Kano has been uploading pics over the past 2 days? I don't see anyone else but you complaining about BFL's lack of updates over the past month or so.

[smoothie]

Here you go, here are a handful of pics Kano has to show for his trip (note, no chips):
http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

Nice plane.

http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N793US

Confirmed flight path: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N793US

ty to PuertoLibre for doing the heavy lifting in these threads, taking a lot of heat for being the voice of reason.

Here is one of those for $190k:
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/DIAMOND-DA40XL/2007-DIAMOND-DA40XL/1262934.htm


IMO the silence since 2/14 is deafening.  I mean, how hot was the bumping?  really no pix this time?  they prolly wouldn't let you take a pic of the soldering anyway.  And there is no way to take a pic after you get them back.  so you understand, no pix. 

ship pre-order monies.

I must say it is getting very quiet from BFL. Lots of noise on the bitcoin price and network hash rate. I seen like 4+ TH/s added in the last week.

BFL getting nervous? BFL fan boys liking the higher difficulty? Remember higher difficulty is better lol

[PuertoLibre]

ty to PuertoLibre for doing the heavy lifting in these threads, taking a lot of heat for being the voice of reason.

.........

IMO the silence since 2/14 is deafening.  I mean, how hot was the bumping?  really no pix this time?  they prolly wouldn't let you take a pic of the soldering anyway.  And there is no way to take a pic after you get them back.  so you understand, no pix.  

ship pre-order monies.

ROFL I'll say it again: who cares about a fucking plane? It's completely useless information. And PuertoLibre as a voice or reason? What have you been smoking?

I don't know what Micon is thanking me for to be honest.

As for you crazyyates, a known BFL supporter, you'd say anything to brown nose a little more.

Even when I repost those said updates, the BFL rep gets crazy angry and calls his own words a lie. (or claims that I misinterpret things)

---------------

The only thing I know for certain is that you:

--Don't have your ASICs in hand after the promised date + 4 (turning into 5) months now.

--You keep being yanked around by your groin from one partial monthly delay to the next.

So no matter how much you flail or huff and puff, that point stands.

---------------
Avalon customers have only been waiting for one month for their shipments. The prototypes are done and a number have been delivered. (a small number)

---------------

BFL customers are now on their 4th or 5th month of waiting after the promised delivery date. The prototypes aren't done and BFL has said this multiple times when asked. So any time you or any BFL customer thinks they can swing like a club "how long an Avalon customer has been waiting"...remember, you have to multiply your own waiting time by multiples of our own.

And you will keep waiting and "taking it" like a champ.  

And as far as this "deafening silence", you realize that Josh posted an update several hours ago, and Kano has been uploading pics over the past 2 days? I don't see anyone else but you complaining about BFL's lack of updates over the past month or so.

Most of his updates are roughly amounting to setting the next delay.

Again, taking it like a champ for nearly half a year. Good job.

[smoothie]

...

The only thing I know for certain is that you:

--Don't have your ASICs in hand after the promised date + 4 (turning into 5) months now.

--You keep being yanked around by your groin from one partial monthly delay to the next.

So no matter how much you flail or huff and puff, that point stands.

...

worth noting lol

[Micon]

1)  Thanking PuertoLibre for continuing to post your thoughts in a very hostile environment for those that believe as you do.

2)  the "updates" and pictures are more spin - they are similar to the show at CES - no ASICs, no mining of any sort, no pictures of actual chips or the bumping process - and in fact no update on the bumping process at all.  If fedex shipped those chips, while BFL holds millions and millions in pre-order monies, no one can get a picture of the chips?  The

here is the latest, hot off the presses:

21 Feb 2013

The chips are still at the bumping facility. They are taking their time, much to our chagrin, to be sure we don't wreck one of the wafers with a failed bump. We are trying to determine if we need to physically go to the bumping facility and sit in someones office until it's done. We should hopefully have more information on that later tonight or tomorrow. If it turns out it would be efficacious, that's what we will do. However, perhaps my reputation will precede me and they will elect to get the job done and send the chips to the packaging facility instead of having me sitting in their office all day.

The good news is, we should be able to accelerate the second set of wafers as well as the bulk of the rest of the wafer run, allowing us to ship product en mass even sooner than we expected. This is still being negotiated, but things are looking good as far as that goes.

he managed to somehow work in the following sentance:

 "allowing us to ship product en mass even sooner than we expected"

I mean, how can anyone take this guy seriously right now?

[Easy2Mine]

@Micon
Will BFL deliver ASIC at the end or not?

[PuertoLibre]

If there is anyone you should be mad at, it should be the people you have given money to half a year ago and are still waiting to get your equipment.

As for your blindness crazyyates, the BFL forum is full of complaints.

Now folks like you who are clearly willing to wait any length of time for BFL are turning around and accusing fellow BFL customers of being "trolls" for asking where the situation is currently at.

Customer support is blogging about how how the delays may be even longer. While contradictory statements are being made about when different customers at different order dates will receive their hardware.

----------------
For example,
Do you really think 80+ Minirig owners are going to wait more months after initial shipping while the TH/s drives difficulty through the roof and profitability through the floor with multitudes of other smaller orders?

I don't think so.

Only 6 wafers after 4 to 5 months of delays? 6,000 chips if it is an optimum situation?
Thats crazy, every time I read an update the only thing I see being spelled out is how they are still at the early stage of ensuring a working prototype is going to work.

Avalon is way past that point. The only big deal with Avalon is getting the hardware past customs and into the hands of customers. They are already working on Gen 2.

BFL is still praying and hoping the simulations and "luck" pans out.

As soon as BFL minirig owners see the first BFL orders (big or small) arriving at customer doors, they are going to be turning the screws on BFL to put them as a priority. With so few chips to go around, they are going to be told no, or they will [speculation] make up some story of why they can't deliver smaller orders.

There is a "clusterfuck" coming. It will either be a technical hurdle or a quantity hurdle. Any one with two eyes and a brain can see that from a mile away.

I don't even need to point this out. it has probably already crossed customers minds.

Wait till BFL ships and watch the fireworks.

[mufa23]

Not really sure what's going down this time. But at the rate I'm finding users on my ignore list, I have a feeling BFL's getting close to shipping 
https://i.imgur.com/puv6IHb.png

[smoothie]

Not really sure what's going down this time. But at the rate I'm finding users on my ignore list, I have a feeling BFL's getting close to shipping 
https://i.imgur.com/puv6IHb.png

Even though he wont see my post...

His image proves a point. People only want to hear what they want to hear. Anything that sounds "bad" or unnerving will be "ignored".

LOL so fucking fail haha

[smoothie]

...

There is a "clusterfuck" coming. It will either be a technical hurdle or a quantity hurdle. Any one with two eyes and a brain can see that from a mile away.

I don't even need to point this out. it has probably already crossed customers minds.

Wait till BFL ships and watch the fireworks.

This ^

[Phinnaeus Gage]

This is all Kano's fault!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=5UilaDwNyeg

[Korbman]

Not really sure what's going down this time. But at the rate I'm finding users on my ignore list, I have a feeling BFL's getting close to shipping 
https://i.imgur.com/puv6IHb.png

Ha, that's just like it was for me in one of the other BFL threads before a split. I go to catch up on 10 pages in a thread only to find half of them are just ignored users..makes reading quite a bit faster

[Tyger]

So when these chips arive they can finally put them on some pcb's, i hope this go's well for them. After e few have been made they need to release them as ready for production (if they have not seen a chip yet this will test the pcb design for the first time and lets hope it works for the first time).
And after that they will need to test all manufactured boards for the first time, hope this FVT works from the first time too.
Or they can send it without testing.

[Beta-coiner1]

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Am I the first person to notice the date and time of this flight? Unless I didn't get the memo as to which timeline I'm living in, that would make the last time this plane left the ground 7 days prior to the epic flight depicted by pics taken on the 19th. BTW, a simple phone call confirmed this.

[greyhawk]

Maybe BFL time is way behind standard time? It would explain the delays.

[Evan]

Maybe BFL time is way behind standard time? It would explain the delays.

Josh PROMISED A PICTURE!!!! WHERE THE EFF IS MY PICTURES!? :p

[PuertoLibre]

Am I the first person to notice the date and time of this flight? Unless I didn't get the memo as to which timeline I'm living in, that would make the last time this plane left the ground 7 days prior to the epic flight depicted by pics taken on the 19th. BTW, a simple phone call confirmed this.

I did notice it, but I thought perhaps I was mistaken on when Kano had left for BFL labs.

What do you make of it?

[repentance]

Am I the first person to notice the date and time of this flight? Unless I didn't get the memo as to which timeline I'm living in, that would make the last time this plane left the ground 7 days prior to the epic flight depicted by pics taken on the 19th. BTW, a simple phone call confirmed this.

I did notice it, but I thought perhaps I was mistaken on when Kano had left for BFL labs.

What do you make of it?

Did kano ever claim that the light aircraft in the picture is the one in which he flew or is that just an assumption people made?

[abracadabra]

Did kano ever claim that the light aircraft in the picture is the one in which he flew or is that just an assumption people made?

Yes. That's the plane that Josh and kano flew.

http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Did kano ever claim that the light aircraft in the picture is the one in which he flew or is that just an assumption people made?

Yes. That's the plane that Josh and kano flew.

http://198.245.60.111/Pix/

This is what we know for sure:

There is a plane. The pic was taken from inside the same type of plane from the passenger side with the Australian version of a Galaxy smartphone according to EFIX data.

All images show the same data, albeit the data can be changed prior to uploading the images onto a computer.

The first two images taken outside the lab when taken on the 18th shortly after 10AM.

The rest of the images, sans one, were taken on the 19th, including the joy ride ones. Only one image was snapped on the 20th (the one above the red door image).

The same camera/phone was used to snap the image at the airport on the 24th, according to the data.

I'm still waiting to see an image of Josh and Kano together taken with any camera.

The flight data has me puzzled, but I believe there's a reasonable explanation. Hate to play the other person's hand, but to be fair, it's possible the site doesn't give complete info, hence requesting to pay a fee to see all the flights associated with that craft.

I'm also surprised to not see an image of another person in the second photo reflected in the glass front doors. Perhaps Kano took a cab or had a rental car.

The best I can calculate is a total of less than 20 pics from an Australian Galaxy smartphone.

Would love to see more pics of staff, Kano. At least one with Josh. What did Josh's office look it? Did you meet Jody? Her chickens?

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

[kano]

No I didn't take pictures of staff.
I didn't feel comfortable taking pictures of people, so I took them of everything else.

The picture of the plane is the same plane we got into
That picture is as we were walking to it.
That is Josh who piloted it and I sat next to him in the front - it's a 4 seater (as you can see), 2 front, 2 back.

The jpg headers are simply what GIMP copied (as it says) from the original and saved in the new files I created.
(The originals are all 3264x2448 except where I used the front facing camera to photograph myself)
The Pix folder on my server is also in my Dropbox, so I just load the original picture from my local Dropbox (yes the phone and Nexus photo folders are linked to my Dropbox also), scale it, and then re-save it in the Dropbox Pix folder that is linked in the Pix folder on that web server of mine.
No manual file transfers required by me from anywhere to anywhere, just short Dropbox transfer delays  
(though I'm not sure when I enabled that, it may have been after the first few pictures - but I'm not sure exactly when I did that)

As I said (no idea who or how many people) the 'Test Room' picture I took later and added later since I noticed I had missed it.

No idea what the problem is with the flight photos. I'm pretty sure I got them in order (unless the taking off one was a landing one )
We landed where we took off ... on the 19th. All photos should be on KC time, but my laptop is on Sydney time.
May well be the source where you get that data is slow or useless - since it lists the last flight as 12th and we flew on the 19th.

Yes I met everyone mentioned at the top of the page (even Jody's name is there ...)

The second photo was taken by me alone.
As I have said, it was a short walk from the Hotel to BFL, so on the first morning I simply walked there.
(after using Google Map to realise it was less than a 2 minute walk)

[Enigma81]

To clarify why the flight doesn't show up on any flight-tracker - only IFR and Flight-Planned VFR Flights will show up on a tracker.  If the flight was performed as a simple VFR flight (Which it most likely was since Josh is only a Private Pilot with No Instrument Certification) then it wouldn't have been recorded in most databases.

You were a brave one Kano, Flying with someone who's only had a license for six or seven months in a rental airplane

Enigma

[kano]

To clarify why the flight doesn't show up on any flight-tracker - only IFR and Flight-Planned VFR Flights will show up on a tracker.  If the flight was performed as a simple VFR flight (Which it most likely was since Josh is only a Private Pilot with No Instrument Certification) then it wouldn't have been recorded in most databases.

You were a brave one Kano, Flying with someone who's only had a license for six or seven months in a rental airplane

Enigma

Well, I certainly wasn't worried ... and the landing was VERY smooth indeed.
Definitely a highlight of the visit for me.

... not sure if I'm brave ... though ... I did once ride a motorcycle long ago in peak hour traffic for a year and was never scared of the stupidity I could do with it ... until I was hit by a truck and had to stop riding ... coz I couldn't walk for 3 months and the bike was not longer usable (It was the trucks fault)

[Enigma81]

Well, I certainly wasn't worried ... and the landing was VERY smooth indeed.
Definitely a highlight of the visit for me.

Glad you enjoyed your flight.  I've been a private pilot (with Instrument and Multi-Engine Ratings) for about 15 years now.  I love it up there.

The smooth landing was certainly attributable to a well trained pilot, but also comes courtesy of the low-wing design.  Because of ground-effect, one has to practically coax/convince the aircraft to land

Enigma

[Phinnaeus Gage]

No I didn't take pictures of staff.
I didn't feel comfortable taking pictures of people, so I took them of everything else.

The picture of the plane is the same plane we got into
That picture is as we were walking to it.
That is Josh who piloted it and I sat next to him in the front - it's a 4 seater (as you can see), 2 front, 2 back.

The jpg headers are simply what GIMP copied (as it says) from the original and saved in the new files I created.
(The originals are all 3264x2448 except where I used the front facing camera to photograph myself)
The Pix folder on my server is also in my Dropbox, so I just load the original picture from my local Dropbox (yes the phone and Nexus photo folders are linked to my Dropbox also), scale it, and then re-save it in the Dropbox Pix folder that is linked in the Pix folder on that web server of mine.
No manual file transfers required by me from anywhere to anywhere, just short Dropbox transfer delays  
(though I'm not sure when I enabled that, it may have been after the first few pictures - but I'm not sure exactly when I did that)

As I said (no idea who or how many people) the 'Test Room' picture I took later and added later since I noticed I had missed it.

No idea what the problem is with the flight photos. I'm pretty sure I got them in order (unless the taking off one was a landing one )
We landed where we took off ... on the 19th. All photos should be on KC time, but my laptop is on Sydney time.
May well be the source where you get that data is slow or useless - since it lists the last flight as 12th and we flew on the 19th.

Yes I met everyone mentioned at the top of the page (even Jody's name is there ...)

The second photo was taken by me alone.
As I have said, it was a short walk from the Hotel to BFL, so on the first morning I simply walked there.
(after using Google Map to realise it was less than a 2 minute walk)

I am very satisfied with your explanation, Kano.

There should be no doubts in people's minds that Kano did visit the plant, took pics with his Australian smartphone, and flew with Josh.

Any pics of the pre-order money sitting in a vault? 

Seriously, thanks a lot, bud, for your efforts and hope you enjoyed your vacation in the States.

Serious last question: Wasn't there supposed to be a second guy on this tour?

~Bruno K~

[Evan]

I have alerted Homeland security to the Australian Terrorist and his terror cell at BFL.... :p

[tvbcof]

The smooth landing was certainly attributable to a well trained pilot, but also comes courtesy of the low-wing design.  Because of ground-effect, one has to practically coax/convince the aircraft to land

I've logged many passenger hours in high-winged tail-dragers or on floats.  Recently I was a passenger in a Cherokee and it was unbelievable how nice it landed.  Attributed to low wing design, but the pilot was private but I think reasonably skillful.  Even a shitty pilot can grease one on often enough so a sample of one landing does not mean much.

I've yet to get my pilots license.  Flying is fun, but expensive and thus not worth it to me.  When BTC gets into the 4 figures USD per, I'll likely change my mind on this   Also stopped riding a motorcycles (on the street) after a crash.  Risk/reward ratio not favorable.

[kano]

I have alerted Homeland security to the Australian Terrorist and his terror cell at BFL.... :p

Well ... now that you mention it, I did seriously get an SMS from the Govt about half an hour 'after' I walked through customs ... that was unexpected
(Centrelink seems to have direct access to customs information ... ... scary)

[johnyj]

Some progress

[Syke]

Some progress

12 Feb 2013: The chips have been delivered by FedEx to the bumping facility.
27 Feb 2013: A photo was taken of the chips.

15 days to take a photograph, and you call that progress?

[cedivad]

15 days to take a photograph, and you call that progress?

They are claming that they will know whatever the chips work or not tonight. That is a progress.
I want to get up tomorrow and to know it.

I finally went to bed around midnight last night and these pics rolled in around 2AM, so I wasn't up to post them.

However, here's a couple pics of the test wafer at the testing facility. They will be putting the chips through testing today (Wednesday) and we should have results back sometime later tonight. I will post when I have more information on that front.

[repentance]

Well ... now that you mention it, I did seriously get an SMS from the Govt about half an hour 'after' I walked through customs ... that was unexpected
(Centrelink seems to have direct access to customs information ... ... scary)

It's no secret that Centrelink data matches with other government agencies, including the Department of Immigration - they tell you that themselves on their website.  Whether going overseas affects your payment depends on what payment you're receiving.

Newstart is suspended while you're out of the country because you're not available for work during that period.  The risk in not telling Centrelink in advance that you'll be going overseas is having your payment cancelled rather than suspended.  If you've failed to notify them in advance, they may also ask for explanation about why you went overseas and who paid for the trip.

[PuertoLibre]

Is Kano on Australian Welfare?

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/information/centrelink-website

Now I am not "base" enough to joke about that (cause soon most of us will be on welfare in one way or another as economies of scale deteriorate), but now I understand the rest as it comes into focus if this is the case.

[repentance]

Is Kano on Australian Welfare?

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/information/centrelink-website

Now I am not "base" enough to joke about that (cause soon most of us will be on welfare in one way or another as economies of scale deteriorate), but now I understand the rest as it comes into focus if this is the case.

Not necessarily.  Centrelink administers income support payments but it also administers payments for children, which are received by many families who are not "low income" by most definitions (it's complex to explain how this works, but depending on whether or not both parents are working and the number of children, these payments don't totally cut out until the family income is somewhere between $90,000 and $150,000 pa).

Going on a short overseas trips is only an issue for people whose payments are conditional on some kind of activity - such as looking for work.

[bonker]

ty to PuertoLibre for doing the heavy lifting in these threads, taking a lot of heat for being the voice of reason.

.........

IMO the silence since 2/14 is deafening.  I mean, how hot was the bumping?  really no pix this time?  they prolly wouldn't let you take a pic of the soldering anyway.  And there is no way to take a pic after you get them back.  so you understand, no pix. 

ship pre-order monies.

ROFL I'll say it again: who cares about a fucking plane? It's completely useless information. And PuertoLibre as a voice or reason? What have you been smoking?

And as far as this "deafening silence", you realize that Josh posted an update several hours ago, and Kano has been uploading pics over the past 2 days? I don't see anyone else but you complaining about BFL's lack of updates over the past month or so.

Seriously Crazyates, you have your tongue so far up BFL's ass... come on, how much are they paying you?

[RoboCoder]

Just curious - if the chips are square and the wafer is round.. isn't that kind of a waste of some chips... 

or do the partially cut-off chips just not hash as fast

[Frizz23]

Just curious - if the chips are square and the wafer is round.. isn't that kind of a waste of some chips... 

Wafers have to be round. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czochralski_process

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Is Kano on Australian Welfare?

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/information/centrelink-website

Now I am not "base" enough to joke about that (cause soon most of us will be on welfare in one way or another as economies of scale deteriorate), but now I understand the rest as it comes into focus if this is the case.

Not necessarily.  Centrelink administers income support payments but it also administers payments for children, which are received by many families who are not "low income" by most definitions (it's complex to explain how this works, but depending on whether or not both parents are working and the number of children, these payments don't totally cut out until the family income is somewhere between $90,000 and $150,000 pa).

Going on a short overseas trips is only an issue for people whose payments are conditional on some kind of activity - such as looking for work.

Kano did mention that he has a medical issue. I'm guessing that that's what the card would be for.

[Monster Tent]

Is Kano on Australian Welfare?

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/information/centrelink-website

Now I am not "base" enough to joke about that (cause soon most of us will be on welfare in one way or another as economies of scale deteriorate), but now I understand the rest as it comes into focus if this is the case.

Almost everyone in Australia is on some kind of welfare or government handout. When you take government handouts and tax breaks into account. Even millionaires get welfare in Australia lol.

[kano]

Meanwhile

http://www.kano-kun.net/

Redid my links from before and added a couple more posts

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Meanwhile

http://www.kano-kun.net/

Redid my links from before and added a couple more posts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfuBREMXxts

[Valle]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

[joshv06]

Why the hell would you bump this thread? So confusing.

[sunblaster]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

But chips have shipped from the fab and are on their way to the US  

[cedivad]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Maybe the info is outdated? Interesting anyway.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Maybe the info is outdated? Interesting anyway.

What good is bringing up a geostamp/EXIF when Sonny Vleisides' epic photo with his cousin's wife and nephew passing them off as his wife and son at his uncle's house does nothing but produce more orders for BFL when we post of such events?

[MrTeal]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Maybe the info is outdated? Interesting anyway.

What good is bringing up a geostamp/EXIF when Sonny Vleisides' epic photo with his cousin's wife and nephew passing them off as his wife and son at his uncle's house does nothing but produce more orders for BFL when we post of such events?

Huh? Proof?

[Bicknellski]

Any news on the chips now?

[tom_o]

Any news on the chips now?

More waiting, what are you expecting from BFL.

Best thing to do is try and imagine you never ordered, if/when it turns up its a nice surprise!

[smoothie]

Any news on the chips now?

More waiting, what are you expecting from BFL.

Best thing to do is try and imagine you never ordered, if/when it turns up its a nice surprise!

Peek-A-Boo!

[Bicknellski]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

This ^^

Some of you are blind aren't you? There hasn't been really any tests on the BFL "chips" that are "on the way to the US".

Hurry up and WAIT lol

Suckerz.... 

Pfft... still not done.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

So will the BitForce SC product line REALLY come out in October? This is a fair question.  Let's review our track record.  If you're not aware, our initial product, the BitForce Single had a slow delivery cycle.  This was initially due to a last minute design change before initial product release.  When we did release it, we weren't quite prepared for the explosive success we had.  After several rounds of scaling, single delivery is in sufficient volume to catch up quickly. The Mini Rig product release has followed it's development and release timeline pretty well.  Initial deliveries aren't far from estimates and the speed of production is on pace to ensure most customers will get their Mini Rigs ahead of schedule. The SC product line has been under development for quite some time and is not the result of an expedited development process.  Although there are always issues during development, our team is highly experienced in exactly this field and we're currently ahead of our original timeline.  Honest Abe, we're scheduling shipments for October of 2012.

It's worse than that! Note the two spaces after the period.

Thank you, Richard.



God's speed, cruel world. I'm out!

[smoothie]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

This ^^

Some of you are blind aren't you? There hasn't been really any tests on the BFL "chips" that are "on the way to the US".

Hurry up and WAIT lol

Suckerz.... 

Pfft... still not done.

3 months ago I said this...and still you customers are waiting.

It was blatantly obvious they had not done any testing given they didn't have the chips in their possession yet they were going to "ship" in a week or two after they arrived.

Bullshit. BFL didn't have a clue what they are doing then and they don't now.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Pringles.png

Don't pop your top just yet.  They still need to be bumped, packaged, and most importantly, thoroughly tested.

This ^^

Some of you are blind aren't you? There hasn't been really any tests on the BFL "chips" that are "on the way to the US".

Hurry up and WAIT lol

Suckerz....  

Pfft... still not done.

3 months ago I said this...and still you customers are waiting.

It was blatantly obvious they had not done any testing given they didn't have the chips in their possession yet they were going to "ship" in a week or two after they arrived.

Bullshit. BFL didn't have a clue what they are doing then and they don't now.

Caution! Humor ahead.

They did make a purdy Pinocchio Box, twice as long as the old box.

[meowmeowbrowncow]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Ummm,...


Hypothetically, let's say the Fab has an updated web site.


Would this mean there is a possibility that BFL's ASIC's are not, in fact, 65 nm.


And, if so, that would constitute quite a serious charge of fraud.


Surely, they wouldn't be so careless.  Disregard.  Or speculate.  Whatevs.

(I'll just leave this here.  BFL chip power spec 5x what was 'anticipated')

[ecliptic]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Ummm,...


Hypothetically, let's say the Fab has an updated web site.


Would this mean there is a possibility that BFL's ASIC's are not, in fact, 65 nm.


And, if so, that would constitute quite a serious charge of fraud.


Surely, they wouldn't be so careless.  Disregard.  Or speculate.  Whatevs.

(I'll just leave this here.  BFL chip power spec 5x what was 'anticipated')

That'd be hilarious, I recall seeing someone from the Avalon team suggesting this possibility months ago

[tvbcof]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Ummm,...

Hypothetically, let's say the Fab has an updated web site.

Would this mean there is a possibility that BFL's ASIC's are not, in fact, 65 nm.

And, if so, that would constitute quite a serious charge of fraud.

Surely, they wouldn't be so careless.  Disregard.  Or speculate.  Whatevs.

(I'll just leave this here.  BFL chip power spec 5x what was 'anticipated')

600nm.  Super-size me baby!  You know our moto in America: "Bigger is Better!"

[meowmeowbrowncow]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Ummm,...


Hypothetically, let's say the Fab has an updated web site.


Would this mean there is a possibility that BFL's ASIC's are not, in fact, 65 nm.


And, if so, that would constitute quite a serious charge of fraud.


Surely, they wouldn't be so careless.  Disregard.  Or speculate.  Whatevs.

(I'll just leave this here.  BFL chip power spec 5x what was 'anticipated')

That'd be hilarious, I recall seeing someone from the Avalon team suggesting this possibility months ago

Hilarious, maybe.  But there would be serious criminal charges.  Even if only part of the solution is 65 nm (ie - one of the ancillary chips) a jury would convict BFL after hearing the evidence.


So, I doubt BFL would have put themselves in such a position.  *shrugs*

[tvbcof]

Hilarious, maybe.  But there would be serious criminal charges.  Even if only part of the solution is 65 nm (ie - one of the ancillary chips) a jury would convict BFL after hearing the evidence.

So, I doubt BFL would have put themselves in such a position.  *shrugs*

I seriously doubt that they would ever get prosecuted, and even if they did it is unlikely that such a thing is even legally a problem.  I mean specs change all the time.  In the very best of circumstances the specs, appearance, timing of the units are going to be way off of the originally projected item.  Nobody is going to sue anybody over that. Or at least they are not win anything until the distant future.

BFL could just deliver some unit at some point after the 1/2 million Avalon chips get glued on to an open-source board for $10/ea and get  the legal monkey off their backs.  Or at least put it in a cage for 10 years.  BFL has check-mated their 'customers'.  Time to suck it up and move on.

[ecliptic]

I've noticed that this phone of bfl's chip have geostamp pointing to Unive in Fremont, CA: http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o
The company produces ASICs from 130nm to 600nm.

Ummm,...


Hypothetically, let's say the Fab has an updated web site.


Would this mean there is a possibility that BFL's ASIC's are not, in fact, 65 nm.


And, if so, that would constitute quite a serious charge of fraud.


Surely, they wouldn't be so careless.  Disregard.  Or speculate.  Whatevs.

(I'll just leave this here.  BFL chip power spec 5x what was 'anticipated')

That'd be hilarious, I recall seeing someone from the Avalon team suggesting this possibility months ago

Hilarious, maybe.  But there would be serious criminal charges.  Even if only part of the solution is 65 nm (ie - one of the ancillary chips) a jury would convict BFL after hearing the evidence.


So, I doubt BFL would have put themselves in such a position.  *shrugs*

BFL already broke many laws and regulations.  And they still have no FCC radiated emissions testing done.

Nobody cares, apparently.

[tom_o]

When's someone gonna take them to court then?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When's someone gonna take them to court then?

Kano, please take the stand.

[Korbman]

BFL already broke many laws and regulations.  And they still have no FCC radiated emissions testing done.

Nobody cares, apparently.

Hmm, interesting. Can you point out the specific laws and regulations violated by Butterfly Labs? I'm genuinely curious, actually.

[ecliptic]

BFL already broke many laws and regulations.  And they still have no FCC radiated emissions testing done.

Nobody cares, apparently.

Hmm, interesting. Can you point out the specific laws and regulations violated by Butterfly Labs? I'm genuinely curious, actually.

47 C.F.R. 15.1b for starters, unless they already have it licensed (I have seen nothing to that end except some empty talk many months ago)

[Korbman]

47 C.F.R. 15.1b for starters, unless they already have it licensed (I have seen nothing to that end except some empty talk many months ago)

My guess is that they've already passed this part...given that essentially any electronic device has to pass it before going to market. If they didn't get past this, do you really think they'd send out an "illegal" device to dozens of media outlets?

Anything else, or was this your only thought on "many broken laws and regulations"?

[meowmeowbrowncow]

When's someone gonna take them to court then?

It would have to be initiated by a govt agency if criminal.  Most likely State's Attorneys.  


Btw, State's Attorney(s) have already been in contact with BFL due to shipping delays.  There is one document with BFL's response to the S.A. floating around the forums somewhere.


If there were even a hint of fraud (patently false advertising), and considering the volume of disgruntled customers, I have a feeling the FTC or a State's Attorney would take interest in BFL again.


If you really want to see where that path goes, contact your S.A. and the FTC.

[erschiessen]

How do they hash at 10x the speed of Avalon with the same chip technology?
(110 nm)

I don't recall, I believe it was grnbrg, one of the early receivers of Jally's posted pix that showed 2 ASICs in the 5 GH machine.

I wish that BFL would have taken the OTHER characteristic from Avalon.
They emulate the same mentality toward their customers (a sense of superiority, a condescending attitude) .
I wish BFL would have taken a page from BitSymCom's work ethic.

[Korbman]

State's Attorney(s) have already been in contact with BFL due to shipping delays.  There is one document with BFL's response to the S.A. floating around the forums somewhere.

This was my initial thought as well. I remember seeing it ages ago, I just can't seem to find it again. Ah well..I know it's around here somewhere..

[ecliptic]

How do they hash at 10x the speed of Avalon with the same chip technology?
(110 nm)

I don't recall, I believe it was grnbrg, one of the early receivers of Jally's posted pix that showed 2 ASICs in the 5 GH machine.

I wish that BFL would have taken the OTHER characteristic from Avalon.
They emulate the same mentality toward their customers (a sense of superiority, a condescending attitude) .
I wish BFL would have taken a page from BitSymCom's work ethic.

One possibility is that BFL's chips may be larger, yielding a higher hash rate per chip, higher (relative to smaller chips) TDP per chip, but fewer chipers per wafer.

Avalon's 110nm 7x7mm 48-QFN chips are slower but theoretically require no external heatsinking, merely PCB design heatsinking

BFL using a BGA package has their thermal pad on the top of the chip (Just like CPU/GPU/etcs with high TDP) and have the external heatsink added on top.  The QFN has it on the bottom.

[erschiessen]

ecliptic,
You got me to thinking.

I will have to look up that pic, to see if there is a significant difference in footprint.

[ecliptic]

ecliptic,
You got me to thinking.

I will have to look up that pic, to see if there is a significant difference in footprint.

If i remember correctly, BFL has a little daughterboard PCB that the ASIC themselves mount to, that daughterboard is then soldered to their main PCB.

[PuertoLibre]

47 C.F.R. 15.1b for starters, unless they already have it licensed (I have seen nothing to that end except some empty talk many months ago)

My guess is that they've already passed this part...given that essentially any electronic device has to pass it before going to market. If they didn't get past this, do you really think they'd send out an "illegal" device to dozens of media outlets?

Anything else, or was this your only thought on "many broken laws and regulations"?

You just want to hear what you want to hear.

Anything contradictory will be ignored by you.

Your mental framing needs adjustments.

[kano]

How do they hash at 10x the speed of Avalon with the same chip technology?
(110 nm)

I don't recall, I believe it was grnbrg, one of the early receivers of Jally's posted pix that showed 2 ASICs in the 5 GH machine.

I wish that BFL would have taken the OTHER characteristic from Avalon.
They emulate the same mentality toward their customers (a sense of superiority, a condescending attitude) .
I wish BFL would have taken a page from BitSymCom's work ethic.

65nm

[PuertoLibre]

State's Attorney(s) have already been in contact with BFL due to shipping delays.  There is one document with BFL's response to the S.A. floating around the forums somewhere.

This was my initial thought as well. I remember seeing it ages ago, I just can't seem to find it again. Ah well..I know it's around here somewhere..

[PuertoLibre]

How do they hash at 10x the speed of Avalon with the same chip technology?
(110 nm)

I don't recall, I believe it was grnbrg, one of the early receivers of Jally's posted pix that showed 2 ASICs in the 5 GH machine.

I wish that BFL would have taken the OTHER characteristic from Avalon.
They emulate the same mentality toward their customers (a sense of superiority, a condescending attitude) .
I wish BFL would have taken a page from BitSymCom's work ethic.

65nm

Fun factoid.

The original 65nm (single chip/16 core) design was supposed yield 7.5Gh/s per chip.

The current specs shown to date are actually about 2.5Gh/s

[kano]

How do they hash at 10x the speed of Avalon with the same chip technology?
(110 nm)

I don't recall, I believe it was grnbrg, one of the early receivers of Jally's posted pix that showed 2 ASICs in the 5 GH machine.

I wish that BFL would have taken the OTHER characteristic from Avalon.
They emulate the same mentality toward their customers (a sense of superiority, a condescending attitude) .
I wish BFL would have taken a page from BitSymCom's work ethic.

65nm

Fun factoid.

The original 65nm (single chip/16 core) design was supposed yield 7.5Gh/s per chip.

The current specs shown to date are actually about 2.5Gh/s

Yeah damn - only 9 times the Avalon chip for 2/3 the Watts and it's also under clocked in the original Jalapenos ...

[tvbcof]

65nm

Fun factoid.

The original 65nm (single chip/16 core) design was supposed yield 7.5Gh/s per chip.

The current specs shown to date are actually about 2.5Gh/s

Yeah damn - only 9 times the Avalon chip for 2/3 the Watts and it's also under clocked in the original Jalapenos ...

Yup.  If blowing the estimate by three X was the worst mistake that BFL has made it would be a much happier world for their 'customers'.  I mean how big a deal is power usage in production-level mining-land anyway?

If there is actually a reliable betting site in the Bitcoin ecosystem these days someone should do a bet on whether the chip in the devices BFL has shipped is actually 65nm.

[Korbman]

47 C.F.R. 15.1b for starters, unless they already have it licensed (I have seen nothing to that end except some empty talk many months ago)

My guess is that they've already passed this part...given that essentially any electronic device has to pass it before going to market. If they didn't get past this, do you really think they'd send out an "illegal" device to dozens of media outlets?

Anything else, or was this your only thought on "many broken laws and regulations"?

You just want to hear what you want to hear.

Anything contradictory will be ignored by you.

Your mental framing needs adjustments.

If only that were true...I'm more than happy to acknowledge serious arguments, but the problem is I very rarely get any. Saying "BFL has broken so many laws and regulations" without pointing out anything of substance is not an argument.

And, as usual, I see you have absolutely nothing to add to the argument Puerto..just more conspiracy theories and "scam scam scam". As I've noted before: Point out the specific laws that BFL has broken, and I will show you why you're wrong. Simple as that.

[PuertoLibre]

47 C.F.R. 15.1b for starters, unless they already have it licensed (I have seen nothing to that end except some empty talk many months ago)

My guess is that they've already passed this part...given that essentially any electronic device has to pass it before going to market. If they didn't get past this, do you really think they'd send out an "illegal" device to dozens of media outlets?

Anything else, or was this your only thought on "many broken laws and regulations"?

You just want to hear what you want to hear.

Anything contradictory will be ignored by you.

Your mental framing needs adjustments.

If only that were true...I'm more than happy to acknowledge serious arguments, but the problem is I very rarely get any. Saying "BFL has broken so many laws and regulations" without pointing out anything of substance is not an argument.

And, as usual, I see you have absolutely nothing to add to the argument Puerto..just more conspiracy theories and "scam scam scam". As I've noted before: Point out the specific laws that BFL has broken, and I will show you why you're wrong. Simple as that.

I do have plenty to add, I am just not doing it with you. You are a known BFL supported and strong shill for them.

People don't really gain anything substantial by answering your demands. You simply ignore the points made even when perfectly legitimate. (Just as you did now) The question is, are you even worth the effort. I think not.

[PuertoLibre]

And update from BFL_Josh:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-7.html#post32042

Well, I was going to pick on post and reply to it as representative of the rest of the questions, but there isn't really a point in picking one post.

Here's the deal: We are not going to provide minute by minute accounts of our comings and goings. We are not going to provide detailed numbers with regards to what we are working on or shipping. It's really as simple as that. It's just not something a company does. I have tried it in the past and been burned on it when I have given out numbers that have changed and thus the numbers I gave out originally are no longer accurate. I've said it before and I will say it again: That is not going to happen going forward if I have anything to say about it. If I could give a number or a date that I was 100% confident in meeting, then I would. However, as the past few months has shown us, I simply can't be sure of any dates I have with 100% confidence right now, thus I'm not going to give dates or numbers. If I give a date or a number that does not have the caveat "should be," "hope to," etc... around it, then you can be sure I am pretty darned confident in that date or number. If not, then the number or date is subject to change. I always wondered why companies weren't more open with their customers and now I understand why.

Like I said, going forward, future products are going to be shipping "when they are done" if I have anything to say about it.

Nothing good has ever come of me giving out numbers or dates. Just look at the issues people are focusing on now, because I gave numbers for chips and wafers. Now everyone wants to know the disposition of every chip in every wafer and where they went, what they are doing now, what they've eaten for breakfast and when their last BM was. It's a nightmare. If I could go back and do it again I would absolutely not have given wafer counts or chips per wafer and everyone would be just as happy (or not) as they are now. We have given far, far too much insight into our process and it's burned us many times over and it won't be happening again in the future.

Some people are great, understanding and intelligent, and I am happy to share details with those people. I would love to talk shop with those people, explain the problems we are facing and use the collective wisdom of those people. Some people... aren't any of those things and the spoil it for everyone. I don't see any way to separate the intelligent people from the useless people who just want to complain and wreck excellent discourse for everyone else. I could potentially create a forum where you have to be given access, but that seems to be very labor intensive and the content would certainly make it's way into the public, so we'd be right back in the same boat we are in now. I honestly don't see a way around it. It's a real shame that there are people who can't have a civil, intelligent discussion, but it's the internet and everyone has an opinion, no matter how worthless it is, and they feel the need and entitlement to express it to anyone and everyone.

Sorry, you are out of luck folks.

Oh by the way, the first refund window for Paypal for orders after April 1st, 2013 (@ 2500$) is coming up in about 3 days.

Word to the wise, "refresh" your orders as Paypal only protects you for 45 days on claims.

[Korbman]

I do have plenty to add, I am just not doing it with you. You are a known BFL supported and strong shill for them.

People don't really gain anything substantial by answering your demands. You simply ignore the points made even when perfectly legitimate. (Just as you did now) The question is, are you even worth the effort. I think not.

Bwahahaha that's a long way of saying "I have no evidence, so instead I will resort to mocking".

And I'm not just a BFL supporter..I'm also a huge fan of Avalon and ASICMiner.

Sorry, you are out of luck folks.

Not sure if you know this or not, but Butterfly Labs is a private company. They don't have to give us any information on anything going on there...the same applies to Avalon or ASICMiner. The information we've received so far from all companies has been a courtesy.

[PuertoLibre]

Not sure if you know this or not, but Butterfly Labs is a private company. They don't have to give us any information on anything going on there...the same applies to Avalon or ASICMiner. The information we've received so far from all companies has been a courtesy.

Various members have researched (a heck of alot of issues) surrounding pre-orders and legal constraints and demands that companies must perform within a certain time frame.

For example, BFL was supposed to have notified their customers within 60 days of any changes to the status of pre-order shipments.

I recall it just only recently happened about 5 months late than prescribed. They are also required to communicate written notification to buyers. I made the argument that this would mean email as that is the official, directed form of communicating with buyers.

I think it is safe to say that none of these guidelines were adhered to until very recently when (coincidentally) BFL asked everyone to agree to new terms and specifications.

----------------------------

The folks who ordered after April 1st, have 15~20 days before they have to be notified (officially) that they will have any changes made to their delivered product.

But who knows if that will happen, right?

[PuertoLibre]

I do have plenty to add, I am just not doing it with you. You are a known BFL supported and strong shill for them.

People don't really gain anything substantial by answering your demands. You simply ignore the points made even when perfectly legitimate. (Just as you did now) The question is, are you even worth the effort. I think not.

Bwahahaha that's a long way of saying "I have no evidence, so instead I will resort to mocking".

It's not that there is no evidence my slow friend. It just means that wasting time with you isn't the best option at this time.

Even when the evidence does slap you, you simply ignore it. Again, you did it just now in the last page.

There is no incentive to fulfill your request.

[Korbman]

Various members have researched (a heck of alot of issues) surrounding pre-orders and legal constraints and demands that companies must perform within a certain time frame.

For example, BFL was supposed to have notified their customers within 60 days of any changes to the status of pre-order shipments.

I know that silly, but I want links...that was actually what I was referring to a page (or two) back when I was trying to find the info on this very statement. This is where I think they crossed the line, but I wanted to double back and look at the facts.

It's not that there is no evidence my slow friend. It just means that wasting time with you isn't the best option at this time.

Even when the evidence does slap you, you simply ignore it. Again, you did it just now in the last page.

There is no incentive to fulfill your request.

Like you have anything better to do?

Come on Puerto, you live for this stuff! You troll every BFL thread there is, so I imagine you MUST have some sort of master list of all of BFL's transgressions, right?

[jspielberg]

Like you have anything better to do?

Come on Puerto, you live for this stuff! You troll every BFL thread there is, so I imagine you MUST have some sort of master list of all of BFL's transgressions, right?

That would be too organized for the local BFL busters.

I find the fact that they were required by paypal to ship some of their pre-orders interesting... though I don't really understand it.  Why did paypal require them to like ship a couple of jalapenos? Why would that make any difference? 

Also this thread is about their chips being shipped to the US.  I though BFL was using some domestic foundry (in California?).

[PuertoLibre]

Like you have anything better to do?

Come on Puerto, you live for this stuff! You troll every BFL thread there is, so I imagine you MUST have some sort of master list of all of BFL's transgressions, right?

That would be too organized for the local BFL busters.

I find the fact that they were required by paypal to ship some of their pre-orders interesting... though I don't really understand it.  Why did paypal require them to like ship a couple of jalapenos? Why would that make any difference? 

It isn't logical. Paypal would very likely require them to ship ALL orders.

The BFL storyline does not add up nor even seem logical.

Paypal gains nothing by a merchant shipping a dozen units out of ten thousand. The story is crooked (in my opinion).

Also this thread is about their chips being shipped to the US.  I though BFL was using some domestic foundry (in California?).

No comment....

[ecliptic]

47 C.F.R. 15.1b for starters, unless they already have it licensed (I have seen nothing to that end except some empty talk many months ago)

My guess is that they've already passed this part...given that essentially any electronic device has to pass it before going to market. If they didn't get past this, do you really think they'd send out an "illegal" device to dozens of media outlets?

Anything else, or was this your only thought on "many broken laws and regulations"?

You just want to hear what you want to hear.

Anything contradictory will be ignored by you.

Your mental framing needs adjustments.

If only that were true...I'm more than happy to acknowledge serious arguments, but the problem is I very rarely get any. Saying "BFL has broken so many laws and regulations" without pointing out anything of substance is not an argument.

And, as usual, I see you have absolutely nothing to add to the argument Puerto..just more conspiracy theories and "scam scam scam". As I've noted before: Point out the specific laws that BFL has broken, and I will show you why you're wrong. Simple as that.

They have no FCC certification.  Nothing is on file.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

And update from BFL_Josh:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-7.html#post32042

Well, I was going to pick on post and reply to it as representative of the rest of the questions, but there isn't really a point in picking one post.

Here's the deal: We are not going to provide minute by minute accounts of our comings and goings. We are not going to provide detailed numbers with regards to what we are working on or shipping. It's really as simple as that. It's just not something a company does. I have tried it in the past and been burned on it when I have given out numbers that have changed and thus the numbers I gave out originally are no longer accurate. I've said it before and I will say it again: That is not going to happen going forward if I have anything to say about it. If I could give a number or a date that I was 100% confident in meeting, then I would. However, as the past few months has shown us, I simply can't be sure of any dates I have with 100% confidence right now, thus I'm not going to give dates or numbers. If I give a date or a number that does not have the caveat "should be," "hope to," etc... around it, then you can be sure I am pretty darned confident in that date or number. If not, then the number or date is subject to change. I always wondered why companies weren't more open with their customers and now I understand why.

Like I said, going forward, future products are going to be shipping "when they are done" if I have anything to say about it.

Nothing good has ever come of me giving out numbers or dates. Just look at the issues people are focusing on now, because I gave numbers for chips and wafers. Now everyone wants to know the disposition of every chip in every wafer and where they went, what they are doing now, what they've eaten for breakfast and when their last BM was. It's a nightmare. If I could go back and do it again I would absolutely not have given wafer counts or chips per wafer and everyone would be just as happy (or not) as they are now. We have given far, far too much insight into our process and it's burned us many times over and it won't be happening again in the future.

Some people are great, understanding and intelligent, and I am happy to share details with those people. I would love to talk shop with those people, explain the problems we are facing and use the collective wisdom of those people. Some people... aren't any of those things and the spoil it for everyone. I don't see any way to separate the intelligent people from the useless people who just want to complain and wreck excellent discourse for everyone else. I could potentially create a forum where you have to be given access, but that seems to be very labor intensive and the content would certainly make it's way into the public, so we'd be right back in the same boat we are in now. I honestly don't see a way around it. It's a real shame that there are people who can't have a civil, intelligent discussion, but it's the internet and everyone has an opinion, no matter how worthless it is, and they feel the need and entitlement to express it to anyone and everyone.

<snipped, only wanting to the latest from BFL above>

Apologies for adding another long quote, but I deemed it relavent.

Doesn't the above negate the below, a complete 180 from offering up transparency and honesty? (more comment(s) from me below the fold)

First, let me start off by saying I apologize for the length of this post.  I wanted to get all the information out there at once.  Normally, I would not make a post of this nature, but given the current circumstances, I think it is warranted.

Many of you on bitcointalk.org forums know me as “Inaba,” the operator of the Eclipse Mining Consortium bitcoin pool.  In approximately two weeks I will also be wearing a different hat.  As you may be able to guess from my new forum name, I will be working with and for BFL.  Effective August 13, 2012 I have accepted the position of Chief Operating Officer of BF Labs INC. (Butterfly Labs)

BFL is the clear technical leader in the FPGA and upcoming ASIC mining space.  As a direct result, the company has grown very quickly over the past year.  Unfortunately, its customer service, which was initially very good, did not scale fast enough, which caused customer relations and transparency to suffer. BFL is eager to improve and one of my top responsibilities in this new position is to focus on that specific issue.  I am, have always been and will always be committed to good customer service and transparency when it comes to bitcoin in general and the daily operations of related activities.  This is where I will be focusing much of my initial attention, specifically to take the pressure off of everyone involved so that they can focus on the other important factors, such as getting the hardware delivered on time!

While I may not be universally liked by everyone in this community, I believe I at least have the respect of many people. I have always stood behind my integrity and commitment to what I promise and I take ownership of my mistakes.  This will not change going forward and I will give my best level of effort to deliver on the promises I make to this community as a representative of BFL, as I always have.  If for some reason I am unable to deliver on those promises, I will provide an explanation as to why.

While there may come a day when bitcoin does not need the Bitcointalk community, that day is still far in the future.  As I have cultivated a relationship with this community through EMC, I also plan on cultivating a rewarding relationship with the community through BFL.  There is some history and baggage to overcome, but I do not believe it is insurmountable.  I also will not be part of or lend my credibility to an organization I do not believe in or one that I believe is working to undermine bitcoin at the expense of the community just to make a quick buck.

To forestall some of the most likely questions, I’m going to answer them here:

Q. Have you been working for BFL all along?
A. No. I have had no business relations with BFL beyond being a customer and also providing some technical assistance getting their equipment to properly talk to pools.

Q. Seriously.  You’ve been working with BFL from the start, you can admit it, haven’t you?
A. Seriously, no!  I first discovered BFL at the same time as everyone else, back around November of 2011.  It was purely coincidental that I happened to work, literally, across the street from their registered address of operations.  I was just as skeptical as everyone else, especially when I discovered the registered address appeared to be a Lebanese restaurant that I frequent (but never really paid attention to the address).  I learned more about BFL along with everyone else and since I was local and close by, I reached out on behalf of the Bitcointalk community to BFL, specifically Sonny, to see if I could gather more information.  I had been running the EMC pool since May/June of 2011 and had no knowledge of, or association with BFL or any of the parties involved in BFL up until it was first noticed on these forums.

Q. Are you going to stop being such a jerk on the forums to some people?
A. Maybe.  It depends. Actually, yes.  As a pool operator and an independent individual I have far more latitude and freedom to express my displeasure with some of the more intense stupidity that can be encountered on the internet.  As a representative of a company, I am, unfortunately, a bit more constrained from explaining to various people exactly why they are idiots.  As such, I will likely be ignoring a lot of the more of the ludicrous posts than I have before. To those of you who enjoyed reading my rants, I am sorry that they will be far fewer and betweener.

Q. What are your qualifications in the endeavor?  What do you bring to the table?
A. I’m glad you asked.  From a customer service perspective, and more specifically, from an online community perspective, I have extensive experience on both sides of the fence.  I have run online forums since the Fidonet days, and have extensive experience in the often caustic, emotionally driven environment that an online forum can produce.  This allows me to effectively communicate with the population, since I am one of the populous myself.  Unlike many customer facing people in many industries, I also have a strong technical background; I am able to communicate effectively with you about your problems, wishes and desires from a technical perspective.  I will not make empty promises from a marketing standpoint if I know it’s technically unreasonable or impossible.  I am also able to effectively manage a project from end to end, which will be critical in getting our manufacturing and production lines going in the most efficient manner possible.  I have also run a number of startups, and I understand the unique challenges required of a startup to function properly and successfully.

Q. Come on, for real, you’ve been with BFL all along, right?
A.  No!  Really!  I have been working for an unrelated company that has nothing to do with bitcoin long before BFL was founded or I knew of any of the people involved, and I am still working for that company, until the day I start working for BFL.

Q. What will happen to EMC?
A. Right now, there are no plans to change anything with regards to EMC, other than more improvements as usual.  I will continue to operate EMC as I have since the start.

Q. You are going to have an unfair advantage when it comes to mining equipment, you’ll be able to get as much as you want before anyone else!
 A. I will not be expanding my mining footprint as it would be a conflict of interest.  I will continue with my current obligations and already acquired/paid for equipment but will not be purchasing or utilizing additional equipment as part of my mining operations.  This is one of the hardest changes I will be making, as I firmly believe there are plenty of opportunities in this space that I am going to be missing out on, but I believe I can do more good for the bitcoin community as a whole working to provide that equipment to people as opposed to using it myself.

Q. Why now?  Why not before?
A. The topic never really came up.  BFL as a corporate entity is a startup and has been running very lean and mean.  With wild success and absolutely spectacular outlook for products, it’s time to move to the next stage of business.  With my diverse skill set, I can replace both a technical lead and a PR/community lead, thereby eliminating the need for an additional person, which means we can move that much quicker in the market as well as have that much less overhead that can go towards development instead of human resources.

Q. Are you going to become just another mouthpiece for the BFL party line?
A. First of all, there is no “party line” coming out of BFL.  They have been up front and honest with their dealings in the community from day one.  There are a number of people on the forums that feel that BFL has been dishonest and some of those feelings are justified if viewed through the lens of “Every business should be perfect, always.”  However, both Sonny and the engineers, contrary to some statements you may have seen from others on the forum, have been honest in their assessments of capabilities and timelines.  They have been mistaken, yes, but they have not been willfully or intentionally dishonest.  Some can say they should have known better, and whether or not that is true is, at this point, academic.  I am looking at the future, not the past, and I will be doing my level best to provide accurate information from day one.  If there is some information that I believe to be inaccurate, a lie, or just plain wrong, I will not pass it off as fact.  I will not tow any “party line.”  I will give you the honest facts as I know them.  There may be times that there are trade secrets that I cannot reveal, but I do not believe this constitutes falsehood or anything nefarious, as there are times where revealing certain bits of information would put BFL at a competitive disadvantage.  That will harm not only BFL, but also its current and future customers.  If there are still people that, going forward, feel that this is somehow dishonest, then I apologize in advance and I also give advance notice that there will, in fact, be times where 100% of information cannot be disclosed, either immediately or possibly ever.

Q. Help me!  Order Status?  Why is the sky blue?
A. I will not be able to answer your questions with regards to order status, etc… via PMs.  The PM system does not allow me to track or correlate information to provide accurate answers.  I will, however, be able to do that via email and our new support system that I will be facilitating in the near future.  PMs requesting information that should be directed to the support system will be ignored.  I apologize for this, but it’s just not feasible to handle the volume of requests that it would generate.

Q. Are there cookies?
A. Yes, there will be cookies.  The cake, however, is still a lie.

Let's put this in perspective, guessing that there's about a dozen strong naysayers/trolls/ whatever their/we're referred to. Are you telling me that a viable company profiting off the very backs of mostly users on this forum has the audacity to keep 100's of their loyal and patient customer base at bay due to the actions of about a dozen individuals?

How the fuck does one go from being open and transparent to you'll receive it when you receive it with minimal information forthcoming from the BFL camp after they have their customer's money, sticking it further up their asses?

I've been critical of BFL, then backed off, only to complete the cycle again, all the time refrained from cursing to express my views. That said, this latest from Camp BFL leaves me no choice but to state: BFL is fucked up and a bunch of sorry bastards.

I would add more, but I think I saw cake and cookies in the conference room, albeit rumor has it that the former is a lie.

They have no FCC certification.  Nothing is on file.

<with cookie crumbs on fingers> That was a BFL from Josh back in November of last year stating it's in the works and would have it in two weeks. Since that comment, and being called out on it, BFL has never bought up the subject again, avoid every instance of it being mentioned. TRANSPARENCY MY FUCKIN' ASS!

The information we've received so far from all companies has been a courtesy.

That courtesy was offered in exchange for sales, always giving information/dates to garner more sales. Once the sales slipped recently, most advertising has been halted, now reverting to a silence stance.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Boy, times from changed!

So user BitcoinINV was supposed to repay a $1500 loan I had given him within 7 days of me recalling it. It's been 12 days now. He's also late on a BTCJam loan that I have no association with. I've tried e-mailing, texting, and calling the below information. Today, I got a return phone call but missed it and no voicemail was left.

I'm looking for someone who lives in or near Emerald Isle, NC that would be willing to drive to the address listed below and attempt to see if "Daniel" still lives there and get him to call me and explain when I should be expecting my money. I'll pay 2% of the loan's value to you ($30) for going and checking (you must submit picture proof to me that you were there and at least attempted to make contact by taking a picture of yourself holding your username on a sheet of paper in front of the apartment and another one in front of the street sign).

In the event I manage to recover my entire $1500 as a result of you contacting him, I'll pay you an additional $120 once the funds have been returned to me. If you are in the area and interested in this, please send me a PM. Here's this dude's information:

Name: Daniel Kowalczewski
Forum Name: BitcoinINV, Bitcoin-Financial.com
Email: drkowalczewski@mailccc.net
         daniel.kowalczewski@gmail.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/daniel.kowalczewski
Cell: 910-376-9244
Address: 8613 Reed Dr Apt 1, Emerald Isle, NC 28594-2579

Note the myriad of lies in the letter from BFL to Ms. Little.

[smoothie]

And update from BFL_Josh:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-7.html#post32042

Well, I was going to pick on post and reply to it as representative of the rest of the questions, but there isn't really a point in picking one post.

Here's the deal: We are not going to provide minute by minute accounts of our comings and goings. We are not going to provide detailed numbers with regards to what we are working on or shipping. It's really as simple as that. It's just not something a company does. I have tried it in the past and been burned on it when I have given out numbers that have changed and thus the numbers I gave out originally are no longer accurate. I've said it before and I will say it again: That is not going to happen going forward if I have anything to say about it. If I could give a number or a date that I was 100% confident in meeting, then I would. However, as the past few months has shown us, I simply can't be sure of any dates I have with 100% confidence right now, thus I'm not going to give dates or numbers. If I give a date or a number that does not have the caveat "should be," "hope to," etc... around it, then you can be sure I am pretty darned confident in that date or number. If not, then the number or date is subject to change. I always wondered why companies weren't more open with their customers and now I understand why.

Like I said, going forward, future products are going to be shipping "when they are done" if I have anything to say about it.

Nothing good has ever come of me giving out numbers or dates. Just look at the issues people are focusing on now, because I gave numbers for chips and wafers. Now everyone wants to know the disposition of every chip in every wafer and where they went, what they are doing now, what they've eaten for breakfast and when their last BM was. It's a nightmare. If I could go back and do it again I would absolutely not have given wafer counts or chips per wafer and everyone would be just as happy (or not) as they are now. We have given far, far too much insight into our process and it's burned us many times over and it won't be happening again in the future.

Some people are great, understanding and intelligent, and I am happy to share details with those people. I would love to talk shop with those people, explain the problems we are facing and use the collective wisdom of those people. Some people... aren't any of those things and the spoil it for everyone. I don't see any way to separate the intelligent people from the useless people who just want to complain and wreck excellent discourse for everyone else. I could potentially create a forum where you have to be given access, but that seems to be very labor intensive and the content would certainly make it's way into the public, so we'd be right back in the same boat we are in now. I honestly don't see a way around it. It's a real shame that there are people who can't have a civil, intelligent discussion, but it's the internet and everyone has an opinion, no matter how worthless it is, and they feel the need and entitlement to express it to anyone and everyone.

<snipped, only wanting to the latest from BFL above>

Apologies for adding another long quote, but I deemed it relavent.

Doesn't the above negate the below, a complete 180 from offering up transparency and honesty? (more comment(s) from me below the fold)

First, let me start off by saying I apologize for the length of this post.  I wanted to get all the information out there at once.  Normally, I would not make a post of this nature, but given the current circumstances, I think it is warranted.

Many of you on bitcointalk.org forums know me as “Inaba,” the operator of the Eclipse Mining Consortium bitcoin pool.  In approximately two weeks I will also be wearing a different hat.  As you may be able to guess from my new forum name, I will be working with and for BFL.  Effective August 13, 2012 I have accepted the position of Chief Operating Officer of BF Labs INC. (Butterfly Labs)

BFL is the clear technical leader in the FPGA and upcoming ASIC mining space.  As a direct result, the company has grown very quickly over the past year.  Unfortunately, its customer service, which was initially very good, did not scale fast enough, which caused customer relations and transparency to suffer. BFL is eager to improve and one of my top responsibilities in this new position is to focus on that specific issue.  I am, have always been and will always be committed to good customer service and transparency when it comes to bitcoin in general and the daily operations of related activities.  This is where I will be focusing much of my initial attention, specifically to take the pressure off of everyone involved so that they can focus on the other important factors, such as getting the hardware delivered on time!

While I may not be universally liked by everyone in this community, I believe I at least have the respect of many people. I have always stood behind my integrity and commitment to what I promise and I take ownership of my mistakes.  This will not change going forward and I will give my best level of effort to deliver on the promises I make to this community as a representative of BFL, as I always have.  If for some reason I am unable to deliver on those promises, I will provide an explanation as to why.

While there may come a day when bitcoin does not need the Bitcointalk community, that day is still far in the future.  As I have cultivated a relationship with this community through EMC, I also plan on cultivating a rewarding relationship with the community through BFL.  There is some history and baggage to overcome, but I do not believe it is insurmountable.  I also will not be part of or lend my credibility to an organization I do not believe in or one that I believe is working to undermine bitcoin at the expense of the community just to make a quick buck.

To forestall some of the most likely questions, I’m going to answer them here:

Q. Have you been working for BFL all along?
A. No. I have had no business relations with BFL beyond being a customer and also providing some technical assistance getting their equipment to properly talk to pools.

Q. Seriously.  You’ve been working with BFL from the start, you can admit it, haven’t you?
A. Seriously, no!  I first discovered BFL at the same time as everyone else, back around November of 2011.  It was purely coincidental that I happened to work, literally, across the street from their registered address of operations.  I was just as skeptical as everyone else, especially when I discovered the registered address appeared to be a Lebanese restaurant that I frequent (but never really paid attention to the address).  I learned more about BFL along with everyone else and since I was local and close by, I reached out on behalf of the Bitcointalk community to BFL, specifically Sonny, to see if I could gather more information.  I had been running the EMC pool since May/June of 2011 and had no knowledge of, or association with BFL or any of the parties involved in BFL up until it was first noticed on these forums.

Q. Are you going to stop being such a jerk on the forums to some people?
A. Maybe.  It depends. Actually, yes.  As a pool operator and an independent individual I have far more latitude and freedom to express my displeasure with some of the more intense stupidity that can be encountered on the internet.  As a representative of a company, I am, unfortunately, a bit more constrained from explaining to various people exactly why they are idiots.  As such, I will likely be ignoring a lot of the more of the ludicrous posts than I have before. To those of you who enjoyed reading my rants, I am sorry that they will be far fewer and betweener.

Q. What are your qualifications in the endeavor?  What do you bring to the table?
A. I’m glad you asked.  From a customer service perspective, and more specifically, from an online community perspective, I have extensive experience on both sides of the fence.  I have run online forums since the Fidonet days, and have extensive experience in the often caustic, emotionally driven environment that an online forum can produce.  This allows me to effectively communicate with the population, since I am one of the populous myself.  Unlike many customer facing people in many industries, I also have a strong technical background; I am able to communicate effectively with you about your problems, wishes and desires from a technical perspective.  I will not make empty promises from a marketing standpoint if I know it’s technically unreasonable or impossible.  I am also able to effectively manage a project from end to end, which will be critical in getting our manufacturing and production lines going in the most efficient manner possible.  I have also run a number of startups, and I understand the unique challenges required of a startup to function properly and successfully.

Q. Come on, for real, you’ve been with BFL all along, right?
A.  No!  Really!  I have been working for an unrelated company that has nothing to do with bitcoin long before BFL was founded or I knew of any of the people involved, and I am still working for that company, until the day I start working for BFL.

Q. What will happen to EMC?
A. Right now, there are no plans to change anything with regards to EMC, other than more improvements as usual.  I will continue to operate EMC as I have since the start.

Q. You are going to have an unfair advantage when it comes to mining equipment, you’ll be able to get as much as you want before anyone else!
 A. I will not be expanding my mining footprint as it would be a conflict of interest.  I will continue with my current obligations and already acquired/paid for equipment but will not be purchasing or utilizing additional equipment as part of my mining operations.  This is one of the hardest changes I will be making, as I firmly believe there are plenty of opportunities in this space that I am going to be missing out on, but I believe I can do more good for the bitcoin community as a whole working to provide that equipment to people as opposed to using it myself.

Q. Why now?  Why not before?
A. The topic never really came up.  BFL as a corporate entity is a startup and has been running very lean and mean.  With wild success and absolutely spectacular outlook for products, it’s time to move to the next stage of business.  With my diverse skill set, I can replace both a technical lead and a PR/community lead, thereby eliminating the need for an additional person, which means we can move that much quicker in the market as well as have that much less overhead that can go towards development instead of human resources.

Q. Are you going to become just another mouthpiece for the BFL party line?
A. First of all, there is no “party line” coming out of BFL.  They have been up front and honest with their dealings in the community from day one.  There are a number of people on the forums that feel that BFL has been dishonest and some of those feelings are justified if viewed through the lens of “Every business should be perfect, always.”  However, both Sonny and the engineers, contrary to some statements you may have seen from others on the forum, have been honest in their assessments of capabilities and timelines.  They have been mistaken, yes, but they have not been willfully or intentionally dishonest.  Some can say they should have known better, and whether or not that is true is, at this point, academic.  I am looking at the future, not the past, and I will be doing my level best to provide accurate information from day one.  If there is some information that I believe to be inaccurate, a lie, or just plain wrong, I will not pass it off as fact.  I will not tow any “party line.”  I will give you the honest facts as I know them.  There may be times that there are trade secrets that I cannot reveal, but I do not believe this constitutes falsehood or anything nefarious, as there are times where revealing certain bits of information would put BFL at a competitive disadvantage.  That will harm not only BFL, but also its current and future customers.  If there are still people that, going forward, feel that this is somehow dishonest, then I apologize in advance and I also give advance notice that there will, in fact, be times where 100% of information cannot be disclosed, either immediately or possibly ever.

Q. Help me!  Order Status?  Why is the sky blue?
A. I will not be able to answer your questions with regards to order status, etc… via PMs.  The PM system does not allow me to track or correlate information to provide accurate answers.  I will, however, be able to do that via email and our new support system that I will be facilitating in the near future.  PMs requesting information that should be directed to the support system will be ignored.  I apologize for this, but it’s just not feasible to handle the volume of requests that it would generate.

Q. Are there cookies?
A. Yes, there will be cookies.  The cake, however, is still a lie.

...

So they went from being TRANPARENT to being NONTRANSPARENT? Gee didn't see that one coming.

A company that says they are going to be transparent and then says they aren't 9 months later HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE.

Now the real question is WHAT IS IT THAT BFL NEEDS TO HIDE?

Josh? Inaba? Any shill from BFL?

[Bicknellski]

The fact they aren't shipping is transparent.

That is all anyone needs to know.

[Korbman]

They have no FCC certification.  Nothing is on file.

So I've recently found, which is quite interesting. I've opened a case with the FCC to confirm.

[smoothie]

They have no FCC certification.  Nothing is on file.

So I've recently found, which is quite interesting. I've opened a case with the FCC to confirm.

Screen shot of paperwork/form?

[ecliptic]

They have no FCC certification.  Nothing is on file.

So I've recently found, which is quite interesting. I've opened a case with the FCC to confirm.

Even worse for them as they've already shipped units in what appears to be a knowing violation.

[PuertoLibre]

Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2661-received-mildly-rude-call-bfl.html

Posted by JunkieXL:

I couldn't reply...it was a voicemail.

I sort of feel powerless now and that BFL has me by the balls. The call I received over the weekend (won't say who it was) but you can tell they are at their wits end and they just don't care. This person was responding to my e-mails. Basically it was to ask me to stop asking questions because they have a plethora of e-mails to answer.

I was being accused of asking the same questions...might have had me confused with someone else. Long story short, the questions I ask they have no info for right now and that I should just wait until more info becomes available.

Fair enough but the rudeness in this reply made me realize how little they care about customers now. I wish I could say that was all there was to the reply, but it got worse. It went on to further add how I'm not the highest paying customer...as if to say I don't matter as much as others. Words were attempted to be used carefully but it was a train wreck of a voicemail that exposed how they truly feel. I won't say what this person was replying to, but it was an olive branch statement I made which is why the rudeness surprised me. I was considering buying more and asked them a few things.

I think because my rigs cost them a lot more in hardware costs to manufacture now due to the power consumption screw up estimates...it felt like an attempt to make me want to cancel and I feel they would be very happy if I did.

This post probably doesn't have much purpose as I'm being cryptic to protect who it was that called me. I don't want to start a shit storm. I'm just curious if others have been treated similarly? I understand what they are going through. A lot of people are angry and there are a ton of flames to fan. I'm just a bit surprised.

What I have taken from this whole experience has been extreme disappointment. When the second generation of ASIC comes out, I think I'll be going to a competitor unless there is an awesome upgrade plan of some kind.

[tvbcof]

Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2661-received-mildly-rude-call-bfl.html

Posted by JunkieXL:

I couldn't reply...it was a voicemail.

....

What I have taken from this whole experience has been extreme disappointment. When the second generation of ASIC comes out, I think I'll be going to a competitor unless there is an awesome upgrade plan of some kind.

Jesus lord-a-mercy!  Can you say 'glutton for punishment?'

[ldrgn]

When is the 1 year anniversary for the first announcement of BFL ASICs?

[smoothie]

When is the 1 year anniversary for the first announcement of BFL ASICs?

Middle of June about?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

When is the 1 year anniversary for the first announcement of BFL ASICs?

Ain't this special! You never guess what I discovered while seeking to answer your question, revealed at the end of the following quote. Unless another confirmed date is presented, I'm guessing May 27, 2012.

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/

We're scared full custom ASIC is great!!!!! You would invest probably more than whole BTC worth then if you would go with say 45-nm!!!! You are serious player   I think this is the time, when security of SHA256 for block-chain generation should be .... IMPROVED   But let's go step by step   First deliver mini-rigs with nice performance and cost, then ASIC, then do buy-in, and then everything would be secure, under NDA of course Or ? Will you start again taking money for future product with "variable" performance ?  

Let me first say that I deeply respect the work you've done.  I really mean that.  It's spectacular and we're deeply impressed.  So believe me when I say that we take no pleasure in undermining your plans.  

As you know, you've only announced yourself within the last week or so while we've been working on our full product range in public view for 10 months.  The SC product plan and it's timing has been illustrated on our product lineup page that full time.  

We started out under attack from similar comments like yours above...   it's deja vu.  I think your first post was met with similar sarcasm.  That's just how it is.  You've got to take your lumps in the public forum.  Even the good Ngzhang once publicly accused us of being a scam product.  In sum, we've seen all this before and we're past it.  We've since shipped a quantity of product into the field that would surprise most people.  So if you want to cast doubt, go right ahead.  Honestly, we expect nothing less.  

I would hope that at some point the hostility becomes unnecessary.

Best regards,
BFL

Now, for what I discovered, but first a couple more quotes to drive the point home.

<quoted from a locked thread>

Re: Hi, my name is Sonny Vleisides

September 21, 2012, 02:13:37 PM                                                        #86

Thank you all for your comments...  both positive and negative.  I see many of our competitors in this thread pushing their agenda which isn't surprising but still, there are some very reasonable posts with deserving questions.  Overall, I appreciate the public's reason for concern and I will return and provide answers.

The following quote was edited to only show an example of the writing style, but opted to highlight one interesting tidbit.

<snip>

Q. Are you going to stop being such a jerk on the forums to some people?
A. Maybe.  It depends. Actually, yes.  As a pool operator and an independent individual I have far more latitude and freedom to express my displeasure with some of the more intense stupidity that can be encountered on the internet.  As a representative of a company, I am, unfortunately, a bit more constrained from explaining to various people exactly why they are idiots.  As such, I will likely be ignoring a lot of the more of the ludicrous posts than I have before. To those of you who enjoyed reading my rants, I am sorry that they will be far fewer and betweener.

<snip>

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

I quoted posts by users BFL, BFL_Sonny, Inaba (Josh) and BFL_Josh. What's the common denominator with them all? The majority of the time they all put an extra space when starting a new sentence.

I'll leave it to others to show/prove that the writing styles of BFL and Josh are similar.

I just thought of one more before I was about to post this: http://redstarmining.blogspot.com/2012_03_01_archive.html

Reply from BFL about our purchase

I just got a reply from BFL -


On 5 March 2012 18:27, BFLabs <sonny@butterflylabs.com> wrote:
Hi Matthew,

Please excuse the delay in confirming your order.  We have been focusing on production over new customer inquiry and are just now catching up.  Your PayPal payment has been received in full and your BitForce SHA256 Single is secure. Your date of purchase is 02/24/2012. I will keep you informed as to the expected delivery date of your order.
Thanks again for your interest in our product.

Kind regards,
Sonny K

Note the extra space at the beginning of the sentence(s).

Hi *****,

We have begun shipping of the product.  However, the lead time on new orders is 4-6 weeks from the date of purchase.  Now that we're underway with production, this could be much faster but it's best to assume 4-6 weeks when making a purchase decision.

Kind regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

[smoothie]

Interesting catch PG.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Interesting catch PG.

Thanks, smoothie!

Apologies for reposting this, but desire the following to be above the fold.

When is the 1 year anniversary for the first announcement of BFL ASICs?

Ain't this special! You never guess what I discovered while seeking to answer your question, revealed at the end of the following quote. Unless another confirmed date is presented, I'm guessing May 27, 2012.

BFL is announcing full custom ASIC chips.  
http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/

We're scared full custom ASIC is great!!!!! You would invest probably more than whole BTC worth then if you would go with say 45-nm!!!! You are serious player   I think this is the time, when security of SHA256 for block-chain generation should be .... IMPROVED   But let's go step by step   First deliver mini-rigs with nice performance and cost, then ASIC, then do buy-in, and then everything would be secure, under NDA of course Or ? Will you start again taking money for future product with "variable" performance ?  

Let me first say that I deeply respect the work you've done.  I really mean that.  It's spectacular and we're deeply impressed.  So believe me when I say that we take no pleasure in undermining your plans.  

As you know, you've only announced yourself within the last week or so while we've been working on our full product range in public view for 10 months.  The SC product plan and it's timing has been illustrated on our product lineup page that full time.  

We started out under attack from similar comments like yours above...   it's deja vu.  I think your first post was met with similar sarcasm.  That's just how it is.  You've got to take your lumps in the public forum.  Even the good Ngzhang once publicly accused us of being a scam product.  In sum, we've seen all this before and we're past it.  We've since shipped a quantity of product into the field that would surprise most people.  So if you want to cast doubt, go right ahead.  Honestly, we expect nothing less.  

I would hope that at some point the hostility becomes unnecessary.

Best regards,
BFL

Now, for what I discovered, but first a couple more quotes to drive the point home.

<quoted from a locked thread>

Re: Hi, my name is Sonny Vleisides

September 21, 2012, 02:13:37 PM                                                        #86

Thank you all for your comments...  both positive and negative.  I see many of our competitors in this thread pushing their agenda which isn't surprising but still, there are some very reasonable posts with deserving questions.  Overall, I appreciate the public's reason for concern and I will return and provide answers.

The following quote was edited to only show an example of the writing style, but opted to highlight one interesting tidbit.

<snip>

Q. Are you going to stop being such a jerk on the forums to some people?
A. Maybe.  It depends. Actually, yes.  As a pool operator and an independent individual I have far more latitude and freedom to express my displeasure with some of the more intense stupidity that can be encountered on the internet.  As a representative of a company, I am, unfortunately, a bit more constrained from explaining to various people exactly why they are idiots.  As such, I will likely be ignoring a lot of the more of the ludicrous posts than I have before. To those of you who enjoyed reading my rants, I am sorry that they will be far fewer and betweener.

<snip>

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

I quoted posts by users BFL, BFL_Sonny, Inaba (Josh) and BFL_Josh. What's the common denominator with them all? The majority of the time they all put an extra space when starting a new sentence.

I'll leave it to others to show/prove that the writing styles of BFL and Josh are similar.

I just thought of one more before I was about to post this: http://redstarmining.blogspot.com/2012_03_01_archive.html

Reply from BFL about our purchase

I just got a reply from BFL -


On 5 March 2012 18:27, BFLabs <sonny@butterflylabs.com> wrote:
Hi Matthew,

Please excuse the delay in confirming your order.  We have been focusing on production over new customer inquiry and are just now catching up.  Your PayPal payment has been received in full and your BitForce SHA256 Single is secure. Your date of purchase is 02/24/2012. I will keep you informed as to the expected delivery date of your order.
Thanks again for your interest in our product.

Kind regards,
Sonny K

Note the extra space at the beginning of the sentence(s).

Hi *****,

We have begun shipping of the product.  However, the lead time on new orders is 4-6 weeks from the date of purchase.  Now that we're underway with production, this could be much faster but it's best to assume 4-6 weeks when making a purchase decision.

Kind regards,
Sonny K
BF Labs Inc.

[smoothie]

Maybe Sonny wrote BFL_Josh's template and Josh just posted it?

hmm

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Maybe Sonny wrote BFL_Josh's template and Josh just posted it?

hmm

My theory is that Josh has been with BFL a lot longer than what we've been led to believe.

Remember when members here were ready to go to KC and check out BFL, but Josh jumped in and said no need, for he's already there? In fact, directly across the street. Here's the pics, all!

What are the odds that four people in a small group all double space at the beginning of a sentence: BFL; Sonny V; Sonny K; Josh?

They're in a little trap if they want to claim that BFL is Sonny V. They never did answer the question as to who is Sonny K. Did Kano or Luke meet Sonny K? If they did, did he look like Sonny Vleisides?

[kano]

Never met another Sonny.
Though I will add that double spaces are common all over the planet

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Never met another Sonny.
Though I will add that double spaces are common all over the planet

That is true, even on this forum, and even Satoshi. But on a percentage basis, 4 different people from a small sample, all of which are the only ones posting/ed on this forum is rather particular.

Is it safe to assume that Sonny K = Sonny Vleisides?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Interesting catch PG.

Here's something just as interesting:

With our forthcoming trade-in program for existing BFL Singles, FPGA owners wishing to make the move to our BitForce 'SC' ASIC solution, we will be launching a very limited pilot program to convert some of the FPGA boards to mine Litecoins.

Since the majority of our resources are focused on our Mini Rig and BitForce 'SC' ASIC fronts right now, this will be a very very limited program, and will be strictly limited to just forty (40) FPGA Litecoin boards (LTC Singles). After the run of 40 LTC Singles, there will be no more. You do not have to be a current BFL Single owner to purchase an LTC Single and in fact there will be no preferential treatment given to people who are trading their BFL Singles in. We will go strictly by the pre-order list, and then first-come-first-serve if there are any units left. These converted and LTC Singles will be available to anybody who wants to buy them.

We currently have a prototype mining at ~718kh/s at around 78W using the standard power supply we include with our regular BFL Singles.  We are pricing these at $499 or LTC equivalent for pre-orders, but (and if any are left) they will be priced at $599 at launch date some time in October and will carry our standard 6-month warranty.

Starting right now, you can reserve up to five (5) LTC Singles, and keeping with the spirit of the program, we will accept Litecoins and only Litecoins for pre-order.  If you'd like to reserve 1-5 of the 40 LTC Singles, you can send a 2000 LTC deposit for each unit you'd like order to the following address, which will be counted toward your final purchase:

mod notice: BFL confirms this to be a fraud

Be sure to send a copy of your Transaction ID to project_scrypt@butterflylabs.com and include how many units you wish to reserve.  Please limit your pre-order to 5 units, though we admit this will be mostly an honor-system sort of thing. BFL-Engineer will be here shortly to fill in any technicals.

Regards,
BFL-Scrypt

I'm busted.  This was a scam attempt.  But since nobody was actually hurt, I don't get a Scammer tag right?

Again, a double space poster. But there's an even weirder part. Scrypt declared it a scam attempt. An attempt to steal money. Yes! But nobody sent any. Prior to any money changing hands, an email would need to be sent. To what andress, you ask? This one: project_scrypt@butterflylabs.com.

Toward the end of that thread, theymos bans him.

Bottomline, he could have done better and claimed a troll attempt, for that would make sense. But admitting to trying to steal money via a butterflylabs.com email account is totally bazard.

Folks, I think we have a serious situation on our hands, and you don't want to know what I'm thinking. But I will state this: I believe BFL has been playing good-cop/bad-cop and they're going for the long con. It's beginning to all add up now, and I don't mean in BFL's favor.

[Unacceptable]

Interesting catch PG.

Here's something just as interesting:

With our forthcoming trade-in program for existing BFL Singles, FPGA owners wishing to make the move to our BitForce 'SC' ASIC solution, we will be launching a very limited pilot program to convert some of the FPGA boards to mine Litecoins.

Since the majority of our resources are focused on our Mini Rig and BitForce 'SC' ASIC fronts right now, this will be a very very limited program, and will be strictly limited to just forty (40) FPGA Litecoin boards (LTC Singles). After the run of 40 LTC Singles, there will be no more. You do not have to be a current BFL Single owner to purchase an LTC Single and in fact there will be no preferential treatment given to people who are trading their BFL Singles in. We will go strictly by the pre-order list, and then first-come-first-serve if there are any units left. These converted and LTC Singles will be available to anybody who wants to buy them.

We currently have a prototype mining at ~718kh/s at around 78W using the standard power supply we include with our regular BFL Singles.  We are pricing these at $499 or LTC equivalent for pre-orders, but (and if any are left) they will be priced at $599 at launch date some time in October and will carry our standard 6-month warranty.

Starting right now, you can reserve up to five (5) LTC Singles, and keeping with the spirit of the program, we will accept Litecoins and only Litecoins for pre-order.  If you'd like to reserve 1-5 of the 40 LTC Singles, you can send a 2000 LTC deposit for each unit you'd like order to the following address, which will be counted toward your final purchase:

mod notice: BFL confirms this to be a fraud

Be sure to send a copy of your Transaction ID to project_scrypt@butterflylabs.com and include how many units you wish to reserve.  Please limit your pre-order to 5 units, though we admit this will be mostly an honor-system sort of thing. BFL-Engineer will be here shortly to fill in any technicals.

Regards,
BFL-Scrypt

I'm busted.  This was a scam attempt.  But since nobody was actually hurt, I don't get a Scammer tag right?

Again, a double space poster.  But there's an even weirder part.  Scrypt declared it a scam attempt.  An attempt to steal money.  Yes! But nobody sent any. Prior to any money changing hands, an email would need to be sent.  To what andress, you ask? This one: project_scrypt@butterflylabs.com.

Toward the end of that thread, theymos bans him.

Bottomline,  he could have done better and claimed a troll attempt,  for that would make sense.  But admitting to trying to steal money via a butterflylabs.com email account is totally bazard.

Folks, I think we have a serious situation on our hands, and you don't want to know what I'm thinking.  But I will state this: I believe BFL has been playing good-cop/bad-cop and they're going for the long con.  It's beginning to all add up now, and I don't mean in BFL's favor.

Then explain this  Who are you..........identify yourself 

[Phinnaeus Gage]

It gets better:

I would really appreciate being whitelisted.  It's in place to prevent bots, spammers, and scammers.  I'm none of the above and have a previous account that I no longer wish to be associated with.  Going through this process a second time is not enjoyable.

The above is indicative of all of Lab_Rat's posts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=70379

Now compare that with: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=70315;sa=showPosts

BFL_Lab_Rat                  Jr. Member   2012-10-22   13   
Lab_Rat                     Newbie           2012-10-23   7   

labrat84

I think it mostly depends on if you think that ButterflyLabs is going to ship on time and where you think you are or will be on the pre-order list.  From what i understand they are going to start shipping to the pre-orders next month, but no guarantee on when you will get yours if you are just now ordering.

[tvbcof]

It gets better:
...

Phin,

Just my opinion, but the double-space thing is weak sauce.  It's not completely valueless in hypothesis testing, but nearly so.

As a slight asside, I think I remember from typing class (and I learned, under great duress, on a manual typewriter) that double-spaces were appropriate in separating sentences.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

It gets better:
...

Phin,

Just my opinion, but the double-space thing is weak sauce.  It's not completely valueless in hypothesis testing, but nearly so.

As a slight asside, I think I remember from typing class (and I learned, under great duress, on a manual typewriter) that double-spaces were appropriate in separating sentences.

Your point is well taken, for I did take typing in HS in the late 70's, and a DS was indeed the norm at the beginning of a sentence, as well as before the Zip Code.

But, what I have done is spend Bryan's quarter and offer up a clue. Jody is over 60 years old and has been typing her entire life, but doesn't use a DS. It's a hard habit to break, one I chose in breaking while writing online early on.

A much younger person would probably not use DS in their pennings, yet there's a handful of BFL diehards at such a tender age choosing to do so.

Josh is well versed...I repeat, Josh is well versed in creating discontent online to further an agenda. This fact is well documented.

[KS]

If the money is good and you don't have to deliver anything, as they have proven so far, there are easy and legal ways to siphon all the money out of the company and into your own pocket.

I like the DS analysis, even if it is borderline paranoia. Maybe there is sth to be found about KnC too...

[chipd]

Geez PG...

Then you must be BFL as well then, since you (and billion others) use SP when writing. I do that as well... unless I'm writing something more official papers (legal/business etc). Although the formal way is DS, few if any would probably notice or care if you use SP.

[Quix]

Double spaces after sentences are normal when typing on a typewriter.  It used to be the accepted practice but is now considered outmoded when using a keyboard.  I would say that the only thing it really proves is that the typist learned to type on a typewriter, or from a typing teacher without current skills.  Two spaces after sentences is no longer considered correct by any current style guild (APA, MLA, etc).

Yes, that was intentional.  

[k9quaint]

I will be sure to put newlines at the end of my sentences from now on.
I don't want the lynch mob thinking I am from BFL.