Beware of PayPal and other reversible transfer services

[sampathneo]

PayPal Sucks!

[KWH]

PayPal Sucks!

PP is great if you are the buyer, not so much as a seller and the buyer is less than stellar.

[D05GTO]

Even the buyer shouldn't use paypal because it'll tie money up for a few weeks at least.  Need a stronger wording sticky that says anyone requesting a Paypal is 100% scammer.

[okaynow]

Need a stronger wording sticky that says anyone requesting a Paypal is 100% scammer.

That is a flat accusation. I understand that PP is not the best tool for these transactions, but

it is a long way from calling every single PP user a scammer!

[TheButterZone]

100% possible scammer.

[vujackie]

Honestly, paypal does not suck. Not for when people refuse to send the bitcoin that you have paid for. I would not for once defraud a seller if he is honest! I have bought a lot of things through forums (blu-rays, TV, DVDs, electronics etc....). I would never file a chargeback unless I smell something fishy or the things never come or it came damage because of seller's negligence. I have also been a seller that accepts paypal. And yes, I do get chargeback all the time. However, you need to follow through and keep your papers and documents. Paypal will never side with the buyer if you have kept your documents properly. Heck, if buyer requests for a refund, I would send a return label and refund the full amount. No question asked.

I don't understand why people are so against paypal on this forum. Embrace paypal or service that gives buyer a recourse for those bad apples would deter the bad apples (At least I hope). When you are against those services, you are only inviting more people to be cheated. Look at the new scammers that are pooping up! It's a minefield now!

Let's say, you say, I only want WU. Ok, a buyer goes and agree to send WU. You get your WU, and you send his out. It works for you! Now, a scammer sees this. He says I only accept WU. Same buyer goes and agrees to send WU. The scammer gets WU and runs! Buyer has no way to get money back. He could be out of thousands of dollars.

Yes, not all buyers are completely honest. But, are all sellers honest? They both are the same! Both people are looking for a way to cheat the other.

In other words, you were cheated once somewhere. Now you are saying all buyers who use paypal are scammers. All you are doing is letting "one bad apple spoiling the bunch". Take me as an example. I did get scam today. He knows who he is. Do I go and say all sellers are dishonest? No, because that is not fair to other sellers out there who are truly honest and legit! 

I have been both a buyer and seller.... I'm just saying don't stereotype everything!

[giletto]

...Paypal will never side with the buyer if you have kept your documents properly...

Sorry mate, but you are wrong and your post is pathetic. Paypal WILL side with the buyer, if he just open a case that the account got hacked. 100% money refund. That is the simple trick. You can keep your paper work properly, can write notes as somebody wrote above, you can do whatever you want:

If the buyer claim his account was hacked, the money will refund. Without any compensation for you.

SIMPLE AS THAT.

[vujackie]

...Paypal will never side with the buyer if you have kept your documents properly...

Sorry mate, but you are wrong and your post is pathetic. Paypal WILL side with the buyer, if he just open a case that the account got hacked. 100% money refund. That is the simple trick. You can keep your paper work properly, can write notes as somebody wrote above, you can do whatever you want:

If the buyer claim his account was hacked, the money will refund. Without any compensation for you.

SIMPLE AS THAT.

Can you ensure that 100% of the sellers here are honest, truthful, and will do what they say? If my post is as pathetic as you say, then you would not mind ensure this, would you, mate? Also, you would not mind to ensure all sellers, wherever PayPal is accepted, are good and wholesome, and honest?

My account is hacked.... You do know paypal has an ip logged? Also, you do know that scammer will do what it takes to get theirs. No question asked!

Anyway, since my post is stupid and pathetic like you have said, you will ensure every sellers here that they will not walk away with your money, and that buyers will get what they are promised!

[giletto]

The Point was not, what the buyer (or seller) will do (you and me can't read any's mind), the point was what they can do.

If you use the "service" of paypal as a buyer, you CAN claim your money back, that is a simple fact.

And of course paypal logg the ip, which make it much more easy to claim a hijack case! Just take your computer and join another network in a friends home, or use a proxy...and the "proof" of hijack your account is well done.

The solution is pretty easy: 2 way authenticator, but paypal is not willing and not interested to do, same as ebay.

[Rytis Jonas]

Russia is full of scammers.

[Fantasy007]

Only paypal transaction with  trusted member 

[vujackie]

The Point was not, what the buyer (or seller) will do (you and me can't read any's mind), the point was what they can do.

If you use the "service" of paypal as a buyer, you CAN claim your money back, that is a simple fact.

And of course paypal logg the ip, which make it much more easy to claim a hijack case! Just take your computer and join another network in a friends home, or use a proxy...and the "proof" of hijack your account is well done.

The solution is pretty easy: 2 way authenticator, but paypal is not willing and not interested to do, same as ebay.

That was not my point. My point was that not all paypal users are scammer, just as not all sellers are scammer (I was just simply pointing out an obvious fact that you  I also said that you have to keep documents, paypal will side with you. Now, if you are a scammer, then yes, you will do what it takes to scam people regardless of your status (either seller or buyer). If you choose the route say WU/Bank transfer, there is no point in tracing anything! WU cannot be traced even if you do use your credit card. Bank transfer is even harder to trace, but it is possible. I was simply stating a fact that, if you are a scammer, you are going to do what it takes to scam people. It does not matter! Honest people will do what honest people do! Scammer will do what they will do!

Now, you speak of a two-way authenticator. Are you seriously kidding? You think that is safe? I highly doubt that is safe. I mean let's face it. Yes, it decreases the risk, but it does not eliminate the risk. There is no such thing as eliminating the risk. The solution is not as easy as you think it is. If it was, there would not be security firm floating around and getting paid big bucks to prevent this! How about triple authenticator? Don't know. How about multiple confirmations when money is sent? You'll be waiting for your money for decades! Paypal security sucks. Sure. Then again, how about amazon security? How 'bout target? How 'bout best buy? Every system is safe until it is broken into. Then, it is no longer safe! Ask any security expert!

Do keep in mind though. I am not saying we should break into every system to test this theory. I am not advocating anyone to break into any system. I hope everyone in the world is honest and truthful. I hope everyone does exactly what they promised! I hope there are no more scammers.

But I keep digressing my point. You said my post is pathetic and wrong (The whole thing is wrong!). Since they are wrong and they are pathetic (mate), you have no problem in ensuring (hahahaha) all transaction here. So, COME ON, matey! Ensure (get it? hahahaha!!!!! priceless) these transactions, because every sellers here are honest and truthful. Let's DO THIS!!!!! There is no need to speak about anything other thing. (Hell, I did not think about log into a friend's network and use it! you thought of it! You sir are truly a master, you speak of all things true! And I have much to learn, master!)

Because, if I was right and that ALL EXPERIENCES ARE THE SAME AS OTHERS, I would insure (no more joke) these transaction!

But what do I know (all I know is not everyone is the same..... either buyers or sellers can be scammer)? Won't you insure every transaction here, master?

[faiza1990]

Only paypal transaction with  trusted member 

its best option for all just exchange on paypal with trusted member otherwise you must scammed and no one going to take any responsibility for this

[giletto]

The Point was not, what the buyer (or seller) will do (you and me can't read any's mind), the point was what they can do.

If you use the "service" of paypal as a buyer, you CAN claim your money back, that is a simple fact.

And of course paypal logg the ip, which make it much more easy to claim a hijack case! Just take your computer and join another network in a friends home, or use a proxy...and the "proof" of hijack your account is well done.

The solution is pretty easy: 2 way authenticator, but paypal is not willing and not interested to do, same as ebay.

That was not my point. My point was that not all paypal users are scammer, just as not all sellers are scammer (I was just simply pointing out an obvious fact that you  I also said that you have to keep documents, paypal will side with you. Now, if you are a scammer, then yes, you will do what it takes to scam people regardless of your status (either seller or buyer). If you choose the route say WU/Bank transfer, there is no point in tracing anything! WU cannot be traced even if you do use your credit card. Bank transfer is even harder to trace, but it is possible. I was simply stating a fact that, if you are a scammer, you are going to do what it takes to scam people. It does not matter! Honest people will do what honest people do! Scammer will do what they will do!

Now, you speak of a two-way authenticator. Are you seriously kidding? You think that is safe? I highly doubt that is safe. I mean let's face it. Yes, it decreases the risk, but it does not eliminate the risk. There is no such thing as eliminating the risk. The solution is not as easy as you think it is. If it was, there would not be security firm floating around and getting paid big bucks to prevent this! How about triple authenticator? Don't know. How about multiple confirmations when money is sent? You'll be waiting for your money for decades! Paypal security sucks. Sure. Then again, how about amazon security? How 'bout target? How 'bout best buy? Every system is safe until it is broken into. Then, it is no longer safe! Ask any security expert!

Do keep in mind though. I am not saying we should break into every system to test this theory. I am not advocating anyone to break into any system. I hope everyone in the world is honest and truthful. I hope everyone does exactly what they promised! I hope there are no more scammers.

But I keep digressing my point. You said my post is pathetic and wrong (The whole thing is wrong!). Since they are wrong and they are pathetic (mate), you have no problem in ensuring (hahahaha) all transaction here. So, COME ON, matey! Ensure (get it? hahahaha!!!!! priceless) these transactions, because every sellers here are honest and truthful. Let's DO THIS!!!!! There is no need to speak about anything other thing. (Hell, I did not think about log into a friend's network and use it! you thought of it! You sir are truly a master, you speak of all things true! And I have much to learn, master!)

Because, if I was right and that ALL EXPERIENCES ARE THE SAME AS OTHERS, I would insure (no more joke) these transaction!

But what do I know (all I know is not everyone is the same..... either buyers or sellers can be scammer)? Won't you insure every transaction here, master?

I am not sure, but it sounds like that you still don't got the point of the thread. You still talk about some paper which you want to keep, may i ask you for what? Claim a case that your account is hacked, and you got 100% money refund if you sale digital items like BTC.

It's not the point, that you HOPE everybody will be honest, if you pay for the supposed safety of paypal, you should get the safety, right? If you just want to HOPE the buyer is honest you could send him the item first and wait for his payment after, for what to use a expensive 4.5% fee middleman service then, in case of HOPE of honest ppl?

Look, paypal is a middleman/escrow service, they call it buyer and seller insurance, but that is in fact a joke. What is the job of a middleman? Ensure transactions in BOTH way, seller and buyer. If they can't, the service is useless, and even the fee is terrible high for nothing, isn't? What paypal do? Give a shit on any transaction if a little problem appear, and try to found ways out of refund any single buck to the scammed victim.

Why? They simple keep the door for scammer open! If they require a 2 factor auth, the easy botnet account gatherer can't use any stolen paypal account anymore! And how they gonna reach this target easy? As i say, first step is a simple 2 factor auth, which will decrease the script kiddy hacks to an amount under 0.1%

And why they don't require this, is simple: 10-15% revenue will lost, and they would have no chance to avoid refund the victim instead of refuse refunds for digital items. Because in case of 2 factor auth there would be almost 0% scammer anymore...

[vujackie]

The Point was not, what the buyer (or seller) will do (you and me can't read any's mind), the point was what they can do.

If you use the "service" of paypal as a buyer, you CAN claim your money back, that is a simple fact.

And of course paypal logg the ip, which make it much more easy to claim a hijack case! Just take your computer and join another network in a friends home, or use a proxy...and the "proof" of hijack your account is well done.

The solution is pretty easy: 2 way authenticator, but paypal is not willing and not interested to do, same as ebay.

That was not my point. My point was that not all paypal users are scammer, just as not all sellers are scammer (I was just simply pointing out an obvious fact that you  I also said that you have to keep documents, paypal will side with you. Now, if you are a scammer, then yes, you will do what it takes to scam people regardless of your status (either seller or buyer). If you choose the route say WU/Bank transfer, there is no point in tracing anything! WU cannot be traced even if you do use your credit card. Bank transfer is even harder to trace, but it is possible. I was simply stating a fact that, if you are a scammer, you are going to do what it takes to scam people. It does not matter! Honest people will do what honest people do! Scammer will do what they will do!

Now, you speak of a two-way authenticator. Are you seriously kidding? You think that is safe? I highly doubt that is safe. I mean let's face it. Yes, it decreases the risk, but it does not eliminate the risk. There is no such thing as eliminating the risk. The solution is not as easy as you think it is. If it was, there would not be security firm floating around and getting paid big bucks to prevent this! How about triple authenticator? Don't know. How about multiple confirmations when money is sent? You'll be waiting for your money for decades! Paypal security sucks. Sure. Then again, how about amazon security? How 'bout target? How 'bout best buy? Every system is safe until it is broken into. Then, it is no longer safe! Ask any security expert!

Do keep in mind though. I am not saying we should break into every system to test this theory. I am not advocating anyone to break into any system. I hope everyone in the world is honest and truthful. I hope everyone does exactly what they promised! I hope there are no more scammers.

But I keep digressing my point. You said my post is pathetic and wrong (The whole thing is wrong!). Since they are wrong and they are pathetic (mate), you have no problem in ensuring (hahahaha) all transaction here. So, COME ON, matey! Ensure (get it? hahahaha!!!!! priceless) these transactions, because every sellers here are honest and truthful. Let's DO THIS!!!!! There is no need to speak about anything other thing. (Hell, I did not think about log into a friend's network and use it! you thought of it! You sir are truly a master, you speak of all things true! And I have much to learn, master!)

Because, if I was right and that ALL EXPERIENCES ARE THE SAME AS OTHERS, I would insure (no more joke) these transaction!

But what do I know (all I know is not everyone is the same..... either buyers or sellers can be scammer)? Won't you insure every transaction here, master?

I am not sure, but it sounds like that you still don't got the point of the thread. You still talk about some paper which you want to keep, may i ask you for what? Claim a case that your account is hacked, and you got 100% money refund if you sale digital items like BTC.

It's not the point, that you HOPE everybody will be honest, if you pay for the supposed safety of paypal, you should get the safety, right? If you just want to HOPE the buyer is honest you could send him the item first and wait for his payment after, for what to use a expensive 4.5% fee middleman service then, in case of HOPE of honest ppl?

Look, paypal is a middleman/escrow service, they call it buyer and seller insurance, but that is in fact a joke. What is the job of a middleman? Ensure transactions in BOTH way, seller and buyer. If they can't, the service is useless, and even the fee is terrible high for nothing, isn't? What paypal do? Give a shit on any transaction if a little problem appear, and try to found ways out of refund any single buck to the scammed victim.

Why? They simple keep the door for scammer open! If they require a 2 factor auth, the easy botnet account gatherer can't use any stolen paypal account anymore! And how they gonna reach this target easy? As i say, first step is a simple 2 factor auth, which will decrease the script kiddy hacks to an amount under 0.1%

And why they don't require this, is simple: 10-15% revenue will lost, and they would have no chance to avoid refund the victim instead of refuse refunds for digital items. Because in case of 2 factor auth there would be almost 0% scammer anymore...

Do you understand what I was trying to say in the first place? You simply don't get it. I was only saying that, not all paypal users are scammer. Then you called me pathetic and wrong. Then you talk about paypal while calling me pathetic and wrong. Then you propose a solution, which is a 2 way auth. Amazon uses this. BofA uses this etc.... Ask those geniuses... why are they still hire security firms?

You think the 2 factor auth would stopped hackers/scammer? You ever heard of people who hack evolving? You ever heard of key logger + tracers? Ever heard of trojan in your own hardware? You think your 2 factor auth is GOD? Here is a rule of thumb. If you get complicated, they will get complicated. There are money to be made in protecting money as well as stealing money. Why do you think there are hardware for both protecting money as well as stealing money?

Now the only way that can stopped hacking is a 30 minute pin update key-code that the US army general uses! Check that one out! (search that up!) The only way you can hack (may be) is to get the code itself which is sent thru a display that looks like your thumb drive (yes that is as legit as they come). Ever heard of that one? Ask any army personnel! Not your 2 step auth (That can be by-pass by kiddie scripter (as you called them). You don't know what these kiddie scripter can do.)

Now, to answer your question, do I understand the point of this thread? Yes, I do. I completely understand the point of this thread... it is simply to say beware of paypal and other reversible transfer services. I was just saying that, "don't think all paypal users are scammer." Why not? I am a paypal user and I am not a scammer.

But I keep digressing. Anyway, the point that I made with you is if you hate paypal so much, why don't you insure every transaction here? It's that simple. You know what is best. Then insure every transaction here. Don't go beat into something else, because the point I made with you is totally different than the point that I made with the thread as a whole.

But what is the point that I am making in the thread is that, not all people who use paypal are scammers!
And the point that I made with you is if you hate paypal so much, why don't you insure every transaction here? It's that simple. You know what is best. Then insure every transaction here. Got it there, matey?

[stex2009]

Paypal will always side for the buyer. They want to make the buyer feel special so they can buy more and feel safe. This makes their biz flourish!

[giletto]

...the point that I made with you is if you hate paypal so much, why don't you insure every transaction here? It's that simple. You know what is best. Then insure every transaction here. Don't go beat into something else, because the point I made with you is totally different than the point that I made with the thread as a whole.

...
And the point that I made with you is if you hate paypal so much, why don't you insure every transaction here? It's that simple. You know what is best. Then insure every transaction here. Got it there, matey?

Why you wrote it double?

Look, as i say alot of time, the point is not, that there are maybe honest buyer who use paypal. Why is this point pointless? I CAN'T FILTER THEM! And you too! Or HOW did you know, who is honest and who is probably a scammer?

Actually i don't hate paypal, how you guess? I sold alot over them in the last 3 or 4 years. But NEVER virtual items. If i can prove i shipped the item (#tracking number ftw.) i will get my money even from scammer which hijack the account.

And about "why don't you insure every transaction here", cmon mate, you ask me serious? You check the forum sometime, how many scammer to cavort here? Or how many high rated feedback escrow guys dissappear after grab enough money?

It's pathetic!

But i accept that the world is full of douchebags. I can smell a scam try miles away. It's a pity, but i can't change the world, just try to live in, without lose my money.

[vujackie]

...the point that I made with you is if you hate paypal so much, why don't you insure every transaction here? It's that simple. You know what is best. Then insure every transaction here. Don't go beat into something else, because the point I made with you is totally different than the point that I made with the thread as a whole.

...
And the point that I made with you is if you hate paypal so much, why don't you insure every transaction here? It's that simple. You know what is best. Then insure every transaction here. Got it there, matey?

Why you wrote it double?

Look, as i say alot of time, the point is not, that there are maybe honest buyer who use paypal. Why is this point pointless? I CAN'T FILTER THEM! And you too! Or HOW did you know, who is honest and who is probably a scammer?

Actually i don't hate paypal, how you guess? I sold alot over them in the last 3 or 4 years. But NEVER virtual items. If i can prove i shipped the item (#tracking number ftw.) i will get my money even from scammer which hijack the account.

And about "why don't you insure every transaction here", cmon mate, you ask me serious? You check the forum sometime, how many scammer to cavort here? Or how many high rated feedback escrow guys dissappear after grab enough money?

It's pathetic!

But i accept that the world is full of douchebags. I can smell a scam try miles away. It's a pity, but i can't change the world, just try to live in, without lose my money.

But I'm pathetic remember? You attack all paypal users. I can even bet you that you cannot smell a scam if they get complicated enough...

Have you ever sell digital movie code? Try that for a change... that is actually a virtual thing. It's a code that people put into vudu and get a movie out! Do people take your money and run? Once out of every say 12. But you still have to prove anyway! Try that then talk to me.

Why did I write it double? In case you missed it the first time!

[giletto]

But I'm pathetic remember? You attack all paypal users. I can even bet you that you cannot smell a scam if they get complicated enough...

No, i don't attack even 1 paypal user, learn to read. COULD =/= WILL.

Everything what i wrote was just: it is possible, so this escrow is worthless. And in more then 25 year of business i never lose money, so believe me, i can and i will smell every scam a mile ago.

Btw., for a scam you need 2 ppl, the idiot and the scammer who is more clever. Ask yourself, how difficult is it to scam someone with common sense and experience.

Have you ever sell digital movie code? Try that for a change... that is actually a virtual thing. It's a code that people put into vudu and get a movie out! Do people take your money and run? Once out of every say 12. But you still have to prove anyway! Try that then talk to me.

Is make no difference WHAT kind of digital delivered good you sale, if you use paypal for ppl send you the money, your money is 100% lost, in case of claim hacked account. Got it?

Why did I write it double? In case you missed it the first time!

You are quite funny, aren't you? One sentence follow with the same sentence let me don't miss the first, believe me.

[vujackie]

But I'm pathetic remember? You attack all paypal users. I can even bet you that you cannot smell a scam if they get complicated enough...

No, i don't attack even 1 paypal user, learn to read. COULD =/= WILL.

Everything what i wrote was just: it is possible, so this escrow is worthless. And in more then 25 year of business i never lose money, so believe me, i can and i will smell every scam a mile ago.

Btw., for a scam you need 2 ppl, the idiot and the scammer who is more clever. Ask yourself, how difficult is it to scam someone with common sense and experience.

Have you ever sell digital movie code? Try that for a change... that is actually a virtual thing. It's a code that people put into vudu and get a movie out! Do people take your money and run? Once out of every say 12. But you still have to prove anyway! Try that then talk to me.

Is make no difference WHAT kind of digital delivered good you sale, if you use paypal for ppl send you the money, your money is 100% lost, in case of claim hacked account. Got it?

Why did I write it double? In case you missed it the first time!

You are quite funny, aren't you? One sentence follow with the same sentence let me don't miss the first, believe me.

I try to be.

Didn't you say you sold over 3 to 4 years on paypal? How is it now you have over 25 years of experiences? Losing money is easy... hahaha!!! pretty easy....