Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[dan99]

"You can expect to see products that are available in one or two weeks from date of order which will still earn you money and return in a short time frame.  Also products and services which will have a longer lead time but will be competitive  the performance of the existing market players "

They sounds like very efficient.. pay now and in 2 weeks time you get your product? if they are so efficient ..they should drop by here and answer
a few question or give us some updates?

[1714136548]

1714136548

[1714136548]

1714136548

[dan99]

Best scam yet.

They say they won't accept payment first but they will allow it. Of-course the people who pay first will the ones to get it first.
But that's the scam. Those first 500 people who pay will get jipped of their money.

Sure 80% might pay by Paypal and 20% might pay by bitcoin. At least they get 20% of 500 orders (Let's just guess 40BTC a unit).
So that's about 4000 BTC (100 orders x 40BTC) or about $324K USD in today's value.

Not too bad of a pay for an easy 1 month scam work.

Done.

Where or who say they allowed up front? they never mentioned about that...to my knowledge.

[chipd]

Where or who say they allowed up front? they never mentioned about that...to my knowledge.

First page.

3.   Let me be very clear on this one our web shop is not taking payments for ANY products today at all. We will only open up for payments when we have some more significant specs to provide.

So if it's a scam. I'll expect them to come back within the week to provide some specs and open up payments.

Anyhow I can see kncminer is online now. Maybe we will get some answers soon.

IMHO, they shouldn't open up payment before they have demo'ed a prototype and been properly audited by someone.

[jayeeyee]

Everything we say or do is just speculation against kncminer.  For now, we should just all drop this thread and assume it is a scam or at least a poor attempt at a new ASIC upbringing company.  Just wait for the news (if any), the farther down we go on this road with all this he said/she said.. they more frenzier this topic will become.

[kncminer]

All,

First I know it’s been a few days since we posted. We have been very busy.

Since a lot of the issues which have been raised are around the qualifications and background of Me and Andreas, I would like to assure everyone that we know our limits and after a long discussion with our hardware partner they are happy to announce their involvement in this venture.

We have made an announcement on our site and you can expect one to be made on their site to match shortly. We would ask that you still direct all questions to kncminer and not to ORSoC directly.

For now we are still not releasing the technical details of our product range but they will be made available soon

more info can be found here

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-9

[tosku]

When ORSoC confirms their involvement in this project, it will have gained a lot of confidence.

[chipd]

When ORSoC confirms their involvement in this project, it will have gained a lot of confidence.

It would be a strong start indeed.

[kano]

Well - sorry - it's all bullshit.
I'll say up front, and I know I'll be correct, no company that doesn't deal with BTC knows how to make BTC hardware.
Simple fact.
They all fail.
Even the people with BTC experience are unable to produce something in less than 6 months.
Unless they are buying sha256 chips already made by ASICMINER or Avalon, they wont be producing anything inside 6 months.
It wont happen.
This crap about "in just a few months" is rubbish unless they are buying already working ASIC chips from one of the companies that has already made ASIC BTC mining devices.

[rammy2k2]

Well - sorry - it's all bullshit.
I'll say up front, and I know I'll be correct, no company that doesn't deal with BTC knows how to make BTC hardware.
Simple fact.
They all fail.
Even the people with BTC experience are unable to produce something in less than 6 months.
Unless they are buying sha256 chips already made by ASICMINER or Avalon, they wont be producing anything inside 6 months.
It wont happen.
This crap about "in just a few months" is rubbish unless they are buying already working ASIC chips from one of the companies that has already made ASIC BTC mining devices.

what he said

[Syke]

We have made an announcement on our site and you can expect one to be made on their site to match shortly. We would ask that you still direct all questions to kncminer and not to ORSoC directly.

Why not? Because ORSoC isn't really on the project, are they?

ORSoC AB
Telephone: +46 8 24 84 04

Anyone want to give them a ring?

[chipd]

We have made an announcement on our site and you can expect one to be made on their site to match shortly. We would ask that you still direct all questions to kncminer and not to ORSoC directly.

Why not? Because ORSoC isn't really on the project, are they?

ORSoC AB
Telephone: +46 8 24 84 04

Anyone want to give them a ring?

Dude... don't give the noobs on this board any stupid ideas. They have no idea how to audit properly nor do they have the manners to do it!
Now 500 idiots will call a completely legit company and ask the same bunch of stupid questions and in worst case scare them away.

If ORSoC publishes something on their webpage you will know that they are.

[Rampion]

When ORSoC confirms their involvement in this project, it will have gained a lot of confidence.

They already confirmed. I spoke with their CEO.

[Fiyasko]

So all im reading is "Its a scam, its a scam, its a scam, Kano: Its all bullshit, its a scam"

So i guess we just sit and wait? Doing nothing? I acutally think that would be the best thing to do, If its a scam and we dont buy in, no foul no harm.
If its not a scam, then perhaps the KNCminer guys will continue (for awhile) to post realistic updates that merit results like hashrate/watt with video proof

[mobodick]

Well - sorry - it's all bullshit.
I'll say up front, and I know I'll be correct, no company that doesn't deal with BTC knows how to make BTC hardware.
Simple fact.
They all fail.
Even the people with BTC experience are unable to produce something in less than 6 months.
Unless they are buying sha256 chips already made by ASICMINER or Avalon, they wont be producing anything inside 6 months.
It wont happen.
This crap about "in just a few months" is rubbish unless they are buying already working ASIC chips from one of the companies that has already made ASIC BTC mining devices.

Yeah well, i'm sorry to tell you that there are always better people than you know.
I can guarantee you that there are people not involved in bitcoin that could produce a better ASIC than any bitcoin-involved parties. The only question is, are they interested enough to get into it now.

There is nothing magical about bitcoin and the algorithm the ic will need to execute is already decided.
Also notice that the problems the ASIC companies are having is not with the hardware implementation of hashing but with the actual technical bit of producing ASICs. They would be screwing up the same way even if they designed an mp3 player instead of a bitcoin hasher.
And all these problems are what real pro's have learned to manage.
So i can fully imagine someone with a plan being able to poop out bitcoin ASICS in a much shorter time frame then what we currently see.

If not then maybe you can explain what would make a bitcoin ASIC so difficult to design for an outsider that they could never catch up.
How many failed (serious) outsider ASIC companies have there been for you to have noticed this dynamic as a general fact?

[chipd]

I have to agree with Kano.  How many ASIC mp3 players has this company developed.  Any FPGA products?
Zero on both counts!!!

What about host software to interface with whatever board they might have?  They should be in contact with Con, Kano and Luke to get them on board; if they were legit.  

They are scam. Period.  No experience designing any bitcoin hardware or software.
No experience in PCB design, no experience in ASIC design.  
There is absolutely no evidence they understand what they are proposing.

First, read this a couple of times so you learn something:

scam 
/skam/
Noun
A dishonest scheme; a fraud.
Verb
Swindle.

They might not have any experience, but that might just be why they outsourced that to ORSoC?

[mobodick]

Well - sorry - it's all bullshit.
I'll say up front, and I know I'll be correct, no company that doesn't deal with BTC knows how to make BTC hardware.
Simple fact.
They all fail.
Even the people with BTC experience are unable to produce something in less than 6 months.
Unless they are buying sha256 chips already made by ASICMINER or Avalon, they wont be producing anything inside 6 months.
It wont happen.
This crap about "in just a few months" is rubbish unless they are buying already working ASIC chips from one of the companies that has already made ASIC BTC mining devices.

Yeah well, i'm sorry to tell you that there are always better people than you know.
I can guarantee you that there are people not involved in bitcoin that could produce a better ASIC than any bitcoin-involved parties. The only question is, are they interested enough to get into it now.

There is nothing magical about bitcoin and the algorithm the ic will need to execute is already decided.
Also notice that the problems the ASIC companies are having is not with the hardware implementation of hashing but with the actual technical bit of producing ASICs. They would be screwing up the same way even if they designed an mp3 player instead of a bitcoin hasher.
And all these problems are what real pro's have learned to manage.
So i can fully imagine someone with a plan being able to poop out bitcoin ASICS in a much shorter time frame then what we currently see.

If not then maybe you can explain what would make a bitcoin ASIC so difficult to design for an outsider that they could never catch up.
How many failed (serious) outsider ASIC companies have there been for you to have noticed this dynamic as a general fact?

I have to agree with Kano.  How many ASIC mp3 players has this company developed.  Any FPGA products?
Zero on both counts!!!

What about host software to interface with whatever board they might have?  They should be in contact with Con, Kano and Luke to get them on board; if they were legit.  

They are scam. Period.  No experience designing any bitcoin hardware or software.
No experience in PCB design, no experience in ASIC design.  
There is absolutely no evidence they understand what they are proposing.

The software front end is only needed once the chips are ready. I don't think they need to arrange for it now. I think that they can even leave that part for the community to figure out. As long as they have a controller on their board somone can build a miner for it.

Meanwhile i haven't heared any real arguments why it would be impossible for someone not deeply involved in the bitcoin community to create a working ASIC in reasonable time.

I think that the people deeply involved in bitcoin think they are the only people who can understand its workings.
I think that is a false premise.
I've recently seen people do things to '80s hardware that was thought of as impossible in the days and these 'impossible' things are done by people completely new to these devices but with a fresh set of eyes/brains to look at it.
I don't nessesarily trust the opinions of experienced people.
If we kept listening only to experienced people then no progress could be made because nothing new would be tried out.
Most important inventions that humanity made were somehow accidental/experimental.
It means that people kept looking despite more experienced people telling them it will be fruitless.
We would never have discovered the atom or quantum mechanics because people said these things canot be real from experience.
Even bitcoin or other peer to peer networks would have been generally seen as impossible just a few decades ago.

If you need experience with making bitcoin ASICs to make bitcoin ASICS then why do we have them at all?
How many companies actually tried and failed?
And how many tried and succeeded?
And is that enough to make a balanced opinion of the situation?

[kano]

...
Yeah well, i'm sorry to tell you that there are always better people than you know.
I can guarantee you that there are people not involved in bitcoin that could produce a better ASIC than any bitcoin-involved parties. The only question is, are they interested enough to get into it now.

There is nothing magical about bitcoin and the algorithm the ic will need to execute is already decided.
Also notice that the problems the ASIC companies are having is not with the hardware implementation of hashing but with the actual technical bit of producing ASICs. They would be screwing up the same way even if they designed an mp3 player instead of a bitcoin hasher.
And all these problems are what real pro's have learned to manage.
So i can fully imagine someone with a plan being able to poop out bitcoin ASICS in a much shorter time frame then what we currently see.

If not then maybe you can explain what would make a bitcoin ASIC so difficult to design for an outsider that they could never catch up.
How many failed (serious) outsider ASIC companies have there been for you to have noticed this dynamic as a general fact?

It's easy to explain.
The outsiders always think like an outsider.
They've made chips that do simple stuff and don't require much power or much complexity.

Yes the algorithm is simple (hell I even wrote a program that generates optimised working BTC c sha256 code from a simple text definition - that works) ... but to implement it in hardware is not.
Go have a look at the FPGA bitstreams and discussions from the latter part of 2011 to get an idea.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter - we are already 10 days into the "few months" and they've only just announced this hardware company.
When 8-July rolls around, they wont be anywhere near complete and they'll have proven themselves that they cannot do it in "a few months"

We've got 4 companies who have already built bitcoin hardware before they started on ASIC.
ASICMINER, Avalon, BFL and bASIC.
The last one failed, the 2nd last one still hasn't released their hardware, and the other 2 took way over 3 months to produce a chip that hashes slower than an FPGA - it just requires hundreds of them to get 'ASIC' speeds.
One thing I think you don't understand, is that BTC is full of tech people who DO know what they are talking about and who DO work for companies that do this sort of stuff.

Anyway, we'll see on the 8th of July.

[mobodick]

...
Yeah well, i'm sorry to tell you that there are always better people than you know.
I can guarantee you that there are people not involved in bitcoin that could produce a better ASIC than any bitcoin-involved parties. The only question is, are they interested enough to get into it now.

There is nothing magical about bitcoin and the algorithm the ic will need to execute is already decided.
Also notice that the problems the ASIC companies are having is not with the hardware implementation of hashing but with the actual technical bit of producing ASICs. They would be screwing up the same way even if they designed an mp3 player instead of a bitcoin hasher.
And all these problems are what real pro's have learned to manage.
So i can fully imagine someone with a plan being able to poop out bitcoin ASICS in a much shorter time frame then what we currently see.

If not then maybe you can explain what would make a bitcoin ASIC so difficult to design for an outsider that they could never catch up.
How many failed (serious) outsider ASIC companies have there been for you to have noticed this dynamic as a general fact?

It's easy to explain.
The outsiders always think like an outsider.
They've made chips that do simple stuff and don't require much power or much complexity.

Yes the algorithm is simple (hell I even wrote a program that generates optimised working BTC c sha256 code from a simple text definition - that works) ... but to implement it in hardware is not.
Go have a look at the FPGA bitstreams and discussions from the latter part of 2011 to get an idea.

I'll certainly will get up to date on that discussion.
Meanwhile i don't see how the actual implementation needs more than than a thorough general understanding of how to use die space effectively. I'm not sure there can be anything specific to bitcoin that would change this process compared to implementing other algorithms. Sure, SHA256 will have its own set of 'hot-spots' that you need to deal with but every design can have these and they always need to be dealt with.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter - we are already 10 days into the "few months" and they've only just announced this hardware company.
When 10-July rolls around, they wont be anywhere near complete and they'll have proven themselves that they cannot do it in "a few months"

This will depend on the actual specs their devices will have and the price at which they will sell them.
If they, for instance, use a smaller process then they will have a competitive product even if they deliver much later.

If you think that they are a scam because they seem to not start when you think they should have look at BFL. They will probably deliver at some point but they are horribly over due. But are they a scam? I'd say no, but they sure have a scummy side to them. (ow, and i propose a complementary to the scam tag: the SCUM tag )

We've got 4 companies who have already built bitcoin hardware before they started on ASIC.
ASICMINER, Avalon, BFL and bASIC.
The last one failed, the 2nd last one still hasn't released their hardware, and the other 2 took way over 3 months to produce a chip that hashes slower than an FPGA - it just requires hundreds of them to get 'ASIC' speeds.
One thing I think you don't understand, is that BTC is full of tech people who DO know what they are talking about and who DO work for companies that do this sort of stuff.

Anyway, well see on the 10th of July.

If the bitcoin community is realy this full of 'people in the know' then we would have seen ASICS way back in 2011 already.
There is not much difference in difficulty designing an ASIC now then it was 2 years ago. It's the same process. So why did all these tech people that you say BTC is full with take so long to see the future?
What i also see is that these skilled tech people frequenctly disagree with each other. They all seem to have copyright on the truth. In such a situation, even if the people are experienced, there is always room for a 3rd party to actually do better.

I'n not saying this is NOT a scam of sorts.
I'm saying that you cannot say that it's bullshit per se.
We realy need more information to even get close to being able to assess this.

[dan99]

At this point in time I have to agreed with the guy from kncminer that they have a good chance of creating the product weather if they
meet the timeline or not is another issue. Those guys from ORSoC should know what they are doing with the hardware side, but the programing and coding I am not too sure if they could do it by them self.. if it come to the worse we have the expertise here to lend a hand. In regards to the chip and pcb design and production lets  hope they are on top of it. Since someone has spoken and confirm with the ceo of ORSoC that kncminer is involved I wouldn't used the S word at all. Who knows they may deliver the product earlier than Josh Butterflies ..  and quality wise maybe better than those
from the far east. I know their Volvo cars are well known for quality and safety.

[newfrozzen]

Hey guys,

When ORSoC confirms their involvement in this project, it will have gained a lot of confidence.

They already confirmed. I spoke with their CEO.

(I wrote an E-Mail to ORSoC)
..... Seems to be legit


If the image is not really legible:

Hi Jan,

Yes, we are cooperating with KNCmining to develop mining products.
Can't go into any detail right now.
 
The communication is mainly held via KNCminier.

Thanks,
                      /Johan
 
Från: Jan xxxxxx Schmidt [mailto:schmidt-jan-xxxxxxx@web.de]
Skickat: den 17 april 2013 16:47
Till: info@orsoc.se
Ämne: Need a confirm of involvement (kncminer(ORSoC)
 
Dear Sir or Madam,
 
I'm Jan Schmidt (alias newfrozzen) from the bitcointalk.org forum.
I contact you because  kncminer (.com) published some news, which says that  ORSoC would be
 involved in their project (to produce ASICs for bitcoin-mining).
 
So could you please confirms your involvement in this project?
For example with a prove and a reply on this E-Mail.
That would be great, because some other people and I have grave doubts about the validity of this ompany (kncminer)
and it could be a scam.
 
 
I look forward to receiving your reply.
 
With kind regards
Jan Schmidt
 

So one point more for *Not a Scam*