Is taxation theft?

[philggg]

Taxation has been in existence in the old days and it is use to provide infrastructure and to improve the conditions of the people living in the country except such money is use for personal gain that is due to the government

[craked5]

BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

Benefits that someone would voluntarily pay for?

Yup and gladly.

People who want to stop paying for all that are in 3 categories:
-Stupid people. Nothing to say here.
-People who used the system (helthcare, studies, roads...) successed and then suddenly decide that the redistribution of wealth isn't a good thing
-People who don't understand that there is strengh in number and those ones are pretty close to the first category to be honest.

[BADecker]

BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

You DO understand that it brings efficiency and stability through mutualization of costs risks responsabilities and profits?
That's the main point of a community. That's what the market, private industries and single individuals will never be able to bring simply because they're not meant to:

Optimization and mutualization around a shared moral value.
There is no moral in the market.
If it the way to maximize profits is to simply deny the rights of those who paid for your services long enough until they die they will do it. That's exactly what's happening in USA right now.

What does awareness have to do with it? Are you trying to tax me right now by saying that I can't have my freedom?

The question isn't the benefits that Government offers. The question is my freedom to accept or decline those benefits.

The further question is my being forced to work to supply other people with those benefits.

The point doesn't have anything to do with benefits, their quality, or even their availability. The question has to do with some people forcing other people to do something that they don't want. And the further point is using subtle trickery to force them and look righteous while doing it.

Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

[Hipster999]

Taxation has been in existence in the old days and it is use to provide infrastructure and to improve the conditions of the people living in the country except such money is use for personal gain that is due to the government

Now the government uses most of this money for its own needs. Before, people paid tribute to different kings or kings. So taxes are slavery.

[nfcmgjh]

...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

[BADecker]

...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

[LeoEspansq]

...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.

[PeterTheGrape]

...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.

There is no such thing as "the state".

It is a mental construct.

It exists only because people create it and maintain it from moment to moment.

-

More practically, what you call "the state" is any particular individual who acts in what he or she thinks is the interests of that construct. A poor soul, what Carl Jung called "a mass man", who has no individual identity but projects their will onto a construct in place of the heroes and legends that serve for more healthy growth.

-

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems. 

[wowanstrong]

...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.

There is no such thing as "the state".

It is a mental construct.

It exists only because people create it and maintain it from moment to moment.

-

More practically, what you call "the state" is any particular individual who acts in what he or she thinks is the interests of that construct. A poor soul, what Carl Jung called "a mass man", who has no individual identity but projects their will onto a construct in place of the heroes and legends that serve for more healthy growth.

-

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems. 

I'm sure that practically people pay taxes is in slavery in the state itself. And it's all because these taxes are imposed and often they even exceed the permissible standards. Of course I understand that there are countries with liberal laws, concerning taxation, but this is not always the case.

[Shiller2009]

...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.

There is no such thing as "the state".

It is a mental construct.

It exists only because people create it and maintain it from moment to moment.

-

More practically, what you call "the state" is any particular individual who acts in what he or she thinks is the interests of that construct. A poor soul, what Carl Jung called "a mass man", who has no individual identity but projects their will onto a construct in place of the heroes and legends that serve for more healthy growth.

-

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems. 

I'm sure that practically people pay taxes is in slavery in the state itself. And it's all because these taxes are imposed and often they even exceed the permissible standards. Of course I understand that there are countries with liberal laws, concerning taxation, but this is not always the case.

We, for example, have taxes exceeding permissible norms and the state specifically does not allow a person to develop. At the same time, there is no support in the country for free medical care or education.

[craked5]

BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

You DO understand that it brings efficiency and stability through mutualization of costs risks responsabilities and profits?
That's the main point of a community. That's what the market, private industries and single individuals will never be able to bring simply because they're not meant to:

Optimization and mutualization around a shared moral value.
There is no moral in the market.
If it the way to maximize profits is to simply deny the rights of those who paid for your services long enough until they die they will do it. That's exactly what's happening in USA right now.

What does awareness have to do with it? Are you trying to tax me right now by saying that I can't have my freedom?

What does that even mean? xD

The question isn't the benefits that Government offers. The question is my freedom to accept or decline those benefits.

And if you give this freedom to people the ones who don't benefit from it will refuse it.
What I mean is that those actions are beneficial to society and are beneficial to everyone ON THE LONG RUN.
But humans are really bad at understanding long term benefits against short term ones... Animal instinct. That's why government is here to make everyone participate to the global benefits.

The further question is my being forced to work to supply other people with those benefits.

The point doesn't have anything to do with benefits, their quality, or even their availability. The question has to do with some people forcing other people to do something that they don't want. And the further point is using subtle trickery to force them and look righteous while doing it.

Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

If what you really want is complete and absolute freedom...
Then sorry man but you can't have it.
Simply because you live with other humans surrounding you. Those humans will have interactions with you. Thus you (as a society) will define rules to govern those interactions.
And Boom. Government is born.

[darkangel11]

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems.  

Nicely said. On one hand we need some taxes, to buy some things that we as individuals can't afford, but may need it, on the other the taxes are slowly killing us, because they are used to finance things that don't directly concern us or that we don't need.

I'll give you an example. You have a small community of houses, no external taxes, and the houses are surrounded by a valley with a lake and a stream. It doesn't belong to a single individual, but to the community. Now, one of you has an idea to build a power plant on the stream and connect his house, but he hasn't got enough cash and the stream is not his to govern, so he gathers money from all neighbors, builds a plant and connects all their houses to free power. Taxes did their job.

Nearby there's another guy, who wants to regulate the stream and plant bushes near the lake, because he doesn't like how it looks. He comes to you and wants you to chip in, because the land belongs to everyone. You don't want to pay for it, because you like the lake as it is, so he comes with some people and threatens you, because most people paid and you did not, you're stopping the investment. You pay to avoid the beating, and taxes did their job again.

[Lancusters]

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems.  

Nicely said. On one hand we need some taxes, to buy some things that we as individuals can't afford, but may need it, on the other the taxes are slowly killing us, because they are used to finance things that don't directly concern us or that we don't need.

I'll give you an example. You have a small community of houses, no external taxes, and the houses are surrounded by a valley with a lake and a stream. It doesn't belong to a single individual, but to the community. Now, one of you has an idea to build a power plant on the stream and connect his house, but he hasn't got enough cash and the stream is not his to govern, so he gathers money from all neighbors, builds a plant and connects all their houses to free power. Taxes did their job.

Nearby there's another guy, who wants to regulate the stream and plant bushes near the lake, because he doesn't like how it looks. He comes to you and wants you to chip in, because the land belongs to everyone. You don't want to pay for it, because you like the lake as it is, so he comes with some people and threatens you, because most people paid and you did not, you're stopping the investment. You pay to avoid the beating, and taxes did their job again.

In your example there is one error. When he collected money from all and built a powerhouse that everyone who gave money for its construction must receive electricity for free. In our life we sell electricity. It turns out we're paying twice. And the income goes into someone else's pocket.

[Elwar]

BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

Benefits that someone would voluntarily pay for?

Yup and gladly.

Awesome. Sign me up for the government that is so good I would voluntarily pay for their services. And it would be so awesome that they would not need to use extortion to get you to pay.

Where is this magical fairy land?

[PeterTheGrape]

...

Awesome. Sign me up for the government that is so good I would voluntarily pay for their services. And it would be so awesome that they would not need to use extortion to get you to pay.

Where is this magical fairy land?

Historically fiat money is part of the same mechanism that involves enforced consent for taxation.

Most people in fiat economies do not protest what money is spent on because they are all appendages of the beast, their will is projected onto the bureaucrats whose will is projected onto the construct. If you ask them if it was right to spend trillions of dollars killing millions of people thousands of miles away, they will stare blankly ahead, not even blinking to clean their eyes, and say "huh?".

The crypto economy hopefully will oblige people to think about currency or pay a price for their zombieism.

[BADecker]

...

Awesome. Sign me up for the government that is so good I would voluntarily pay for their services. And it would be so awesome that they would not need to use extortion to get you to pay.

Where is this magical fairy land?

Historically fiat money is part of the same mechanism that involves enforced consent for taxation.

Most people in fiat economies do not protest what money is spent on because they are all appendages of the beast, their will is projected onto the bureaucrats whose will is projected onto the construct. If you ask them if it was right to spend trillions of dollars killing millions of people thousands of miles away, they will stare blankly ahead, not even blinking to clean their eyes, and say "huh?".

The crypto economy hopefully will oblige people to think about currency or pay a price for their zombieism.

Yet, there is nothing wrong with money that is simply used as a means of exchange. It makes barter a whole lot easier in many circumstances.

The bad part comes in when some shrewd people use it to slyly steal from unsuspecting, honest users of money.

[craked5]

Awesome. Sign me up for the government that is so good I would voluntarily pay for their services. And it would be so awesome that they would not need to use extortion to get you to pay.

Where is this magical fairy land?

Start at the bottom of this list then work your way up.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUM

OH MY GOD
This guy knows how to start posting on a forum!!!!
To hell what will be your posts when you're a legendary member? Keep some ammo man!

I support this list. And I'm pretty sad to not see my own country at the bottom. We would have a lot to learn from our neigbours.

Did anyone see the Mickel Moore movie "where to invade next"? It's pretty awesome. He makes a road trip in Europe and everytime he takes what each country has best done. Of course USA has pretty much the exact opposite as they hate nothing more than socialism, but frankly, each European country should inspire from this movie and check what their neighbours are doing better than then.

[craked5]

Lol, massive debt I agree on that one even though it's easily explanable by both the euro and the young population, but third word security? Seriously? xD

Well, yes. Just couple of days ago, there was yet another demonstration in the center of Paris. Working class women are hunted like prey in the streets, while still giving away half of their income to the state in exchange for empty promises. There is something... evil about system like that.

https://heatst.com/world/women-in-paris-protest-against-immigrant-men-sexually-harassing-them/

AHAHAHAH
Sorry man but that's pretty funny xD
You know I had trouble finding info about this protest because we have massive protest right now, hundreds of thousands of people protesting against state security (which we consider too high) and for the migrants. This protest you're talking about is a complete bullshit. They're old rich ladies of extreme right wing who never had any problem with migrants as they're living in the most beautiful places of Paris! Those are the same who voted a law to fine people looting the garbage!!! You imagine? There is a part of Paris where poor people scavanging food in the trash ARE FINED!
I don't have much respect for those people.

I... am. Not all of course but a good part of my profit goes in taxes, that's normal and fair, even though I'd love to be able to control more where the money goes that's for sure.

Precisely! You took all the risks, you and only you will be held accountable for failure of the enterprise. So it is not just just but also completely natural, that you and nobody else should decide where profit goes. You can make compromises, but you stopped being slave at plantation of someone else the moment you took full responsiblity for the future of bussiness.

And that's where the extortion is important!
Because indeed, I could think like you. But that wouldn't be the truth.
That would be forgetting that if I have the skills to make money it's because my education was paid by the state.
That would be forgetting that if I have the time to make money that's because the state took care of my mother in law sickness.


AND THE MOST IMPORTANT
I'm not "the only one to be held accountable" as you say.
In Franc eif you create a company and it fails, then you'll have tons of help from state to help your recover. You won't be out in the street at all! You'll be paid the time you find a new job (or a new idea) and if you bankrupted hard and have tons of debt, the government can erase all your debt (that's happening to thousands of people every year).

The idea is there, you pay if you succeed, but we help you if you fall.
Solidarity
"Liberté, égalité, fraternité"
"Freedom, equality, fraternity"
Don't see anything bad here.

And what do we do when people who earn lots of money refuse to help?

The problem here you see is the fact that state invest in people.
I'll take my own example:
I'm from a rather poor family (not desperate but not middle class either) and I've made top notch scientific studies and am now an engineer who earns more in a month than both his parents combined. The fact is that yeah sure I became like this thanks to hard working, years of studies and my own skills. But not only.
I should not forget that I was able to do all this also because education is not only free but you're also helped by the state which pays you an appartment and food when you study and you're from a poor family. I should not forget that when my mother in law had a cancer, state paid for her cure during the whole year and paid here a part of her salary.

Sure hardworking is important and goodwill is better. But now suppose we "let the choice" to people as you say, and I chose to refuse to pay because I don't see the support the State gave me but I only see my own work and my years of struggle and I decide that people should just "work more". Then the virtuous circle is broken :/

Thats the point of contention and we can discuss it. But lets not pretend its completely normal for the system to take everything and (as shown on the example of Paris above) give back nothing. Taxation and redistribution of any wealth should be constantly re-negationed. State is our tool, not vice versa.

COMPLETELY AGREED
For that I completely agree of course. Time and society change and we should be arranging the system all the time. That's why our poor form of representative democracy is really not suited for a good socialist system.
But the system and the ideas are good, the tools aren't perfect though

[BADecker]

Lol, massive debt I agree on that one even though it's easily explanable by both the euro and the young population, but third word security? Seriously? xD

Well, yes. Just couple of days ago, there was yet another demonstration in the center of Paris. Working class women are hunted like prey in the streets, while still giving away half of their income to the state in exchange for empty promises. There is something... evil about system like that.

https://heatst.com/world/women-in-paris-protest-against-immigrant-men-sexually-harassing-them/

AHAHAHAH
Sorry man but that's pretty funny xD
You know I had trouble finding info about this protest because we have massive protest right now, hundreds of thousands of people protesting against state security (which we consider too high) and for the migrants. This protest you're talking about is a complete bullshit. They're old rich ladies of extreme right wing who never had any problem with migrants as they're living in the most beautiful places of Paris! Those are the same who voted a law to fine people looting the garbage!!! You imagine? There is a part of Paris where poor people scavanging food in the trash ARE FINED!
I don't have much respect for those people.

I... am. Not all of course but a good part of my profit goes in taxes, that's normal and fair, even though I'd love to be able to control more where the money goes that's for sure.

Precisely! You took all the risks, you and only you will be held accountable for failure of the enterprise. So it is not just just but also completely natural, that you and nobody else should decide where profit goes. You can make compromises, but you stopped being slave at plantation of someone else the moment you took full responsiblity for the future of bussiness.

And that's where the extortion is important!
Because indeed, I could think like you. But that wouldn't be the truth.
That would be forgetting that if I have the skills to make money it's because my education was paid by the state.
That would be forgetting that if I have the time to make money that's because the state took care of my mother in law sickness.


AND THE MOST IMPORTANT
I'm not "the only one to be held accountable" as you say.
In Franc eif you create a company and it fails, then you'll have tons of help from state to help your recover. You won't be out in the street at all! You'll be paid the time you find a new job (or a new idea) and if you bankrupted hard and have tons of debt, the government can erase all your debt (that's happening to thousands of people every year).

The idea is there, you pay if you succeed, but we help you if you fall.
Solidarity
"Liberté, égalité, fraternité"
"Freedom, equality, fraternity"
Don't see anything bad here.

And what do we do when people who earn lots of money refuse to help?

The problem here you see is the fact that state invest in people.
I'll take my own example:
I'm from a rather poor family (not desperate but not middle class either) and I've made top notch scientific studies and am now an engineer who earns more in a month than both his parents combined. The fact is that yeah sure I became like this thanks to hard working, years of studies and my own skills. But not only.
I should not forget that I was able to do all this also because education is not only free but you're also helped by the state which pays you an appartment and food when you study and you're from a poor family. I should not forget that when my mother in law had a cancer, state paid for her cure during the whole year and paid here a part of her salary.

Sure hardworking is important and goodwill is better. But now suppose we "let the choice" to people as you say, and I chose to refuse to pay because I don't see the support the State gave me but I only see my own work and my years of struggle and I decide that people should just "work more". Then the virtuous circle is broken :/

Thats the point of contention and we can discuss it. But lets not pretend its completely normal for the system to take everything and (as shown on the example of Paris above) give back nothing. Taxation and redistribution of any wealth should be constantly re-negationed. State is our tool, not vice versa.

COMPLETELY AGREED
For that I completely agree of course. Time and society change and we should be arranging the system all the time. That's why our poor form of representative democracy is really not suited for a good socialist system.
But the system and the ideas are good, the tools aren't perfect though

But people don't change. They still have arms and legs, a torso and head, hands and feet. And they still have good and evil planted in their hearts. At the same time, almost 100% of them are not mind readers.

This means that there is at least some little trust of strangers, even though you never know, until you get to know them. Be prepared to protect yourself against the stranger, or against the stray thoughts of people who you consider friends. You know that you, yourself, have had stray thoughts against your friends once in a while.

When you know that you can protect yourself, and when you know that irresponsible use of your self protection will bring down worse troubles onto you than petty disagreements and anger, you will use your "self protection" wisely.

[darkangel11]

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems.  

Nicely said. On one hand we need some taxes, to buy some things that we as individuals can't afford, but may need it, on the other the taxes are slowly killing us, because they are used to finance things that don't directly concern us or that we don't need.

I'll give you an example. You have a small community of houses, no external taxes, and the houses are surrounded by a valley with a lake and a stream. It doesn't belong to a single individual, but to the community. Now, one of you has an idea to build a power plant on the stream and connect his house, but he hasn't got enough cash and the stream is not his to govern, so he gathers money from all neighbors, builds a plant and connects all their houses to free power. Taxes did their job.

Nearby there's another guy, who wants to regulate the stream and plant bushes near the lake, because he doesn't like how it looks. He comes to you and wants you to chip in, because the land belongs to everyone. You don't want to pay for it, because you like the lake as it is, so he comes with some people and threatens you, because most people paid and you did not, you're stopping the investment. You pay to avoid the beating, and taxes did their job again.

In your example there is one error. When he collected money from all and built a powerhouse that everyone who gave money for its construction must receive electricity for free. In our life we sell electricity. It turns out we're paying twice. And the income goes into someone else's pocket.

Only if you're taking it literally. This doesn't have to be a power plant, but a bus service that will take their kids to school every day, a teacher that will teach these kids in a classroom, which is much cheaper than private tutoring, street lamps, pavements, emergency services... All those things are provided and maintained with taxes.