Is taxation theft?

[OutlawFat]

Personally I kinda feel taxation IS a theft, but it's one of the prehistoric conventions and I'm not sure we can actually change anything about it.

[BADecker]

Get out the law dictionaries and encyclopedias. Look up the word taxes/tax/taxation. The dictionaries and encyclopedias use other words to describe and define taxes/tax/taxation. Look those words up, as well, and then the definitions of those words, etc., on and on. What you will finally come to as the definition of taxes/tax/taxation is, fraud. What this means is that the the word theft isn't what taxation really is. Rather, taxation is robbery via fraud.

[Elwar]

I didn't realize that Disney buys up so many roads. I guess it makes sense. I like the story with the bridge between the US and Canada. I wonder what it is that made the governments so horrible as making the bridge profitable, even at a higher price. What was it that made it easier for the private company to monetize the venture? Aren't there some government policies that prevent cell phone companies from endlessly raising their prices? I think it's called collusion, right? Without government regulation, are there some natural tendencies that would prevent collusion?

Monopolies cannot exist without government force. It just doesn't work.

I can only site one case of a natural monopoly in the United States that did not use the force of government. That is the company that manufactures those little white pieces of cardboard for priests to wear around their collars. I'm thinking the only reason it was a monopoly was that there was not much motivation to disrupt that industry and the company likely kept prices low for ideological reasons.

[Ratmanrr]

Letting me keep my property (money) would be one of those improvements I would like to see.

Yeah, that would be a huuuge improvement 

[Sabertoothboth]

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

The video is very persuasive, I'd say  , but what if everyone chooses not to "help George," even those who can afford to "help a thousand Georges?"
The society must then come with a new paradigm of providing funds to do public works, like road repairs, sanitation, etc., etc.
I'm not saying that forcing all people to "help George" is okay. I'm merely trying to understand what opitons we have in this respect...

[sydcoin]

Depends. If it is gobbled up corrupt politicians, definitely theft. If used for social welfare, maybe not.

[Elwar]

I didn't realize that Disney buys up so many roads. I guess it makes sense. I like the story with the bridge between the US and Canada. I wonder what it is that made the governments so horrible as making the bridge profitable, even at a higher price. What was it that made it easier for the private company to monetize the venture? Aren't there some government policies that prevent cell phone companies from endlessly raising their prices? I think it's called collusion, right? Without government regulation, are there some natural tendencies that would prevent collusion?

Monopolies cannot exist without government force. It just doesn't work.

I can only site one case of a natural monopoly in the United States that did not use the force of government. That is the company that manufactures those little white pieces of cardboard for priests to wear around their collars. I'm thinking the only reason it was a monopoly was that there was not much motivation to disrupt that industry and the company likely kept prices low for ideological reasons.

I'm not understanding something here. Are you equating monopolies to collusion? Isn't a monopoly when one company takes over an entire market? They may buy out competitors or just run them out of business with more competitive prices. Collusion is something else, if I understand correctly. Price collusion happens when you have multiple companies providing the same service. They would typically compete on price to win more of the market, but they can promise each other that none of them will go over a certain prices. They may also all agree to raise prices. In the example with the roads, couldn't this happen? The private road owners would realize that there is no choice but to use roads. They could take advantage of that. They could collude with all the other road owners and agree to raise prices. People could sort of become slaves to the road owners. Why shouldn't that be a concern?

Collusion is almost the same as a monopoly, it's just an oligopoly. Again, it cannot exist without government. They require the government to ensure that nobody outside of their group comes in and takes all of their customers by providing a lower price. Governments tend to provide that service (the service of keeping competition out of the market).

Imagine the road running next to a long piece of farm land, through collusion, is making $100k per year just for that strip. The farmer knows that the same square meters of his land only brings in $20k per year. He is now incentivized to build a road on his property instead of food. He can then undercut the road company and take all of the customers. Same with every single property next to the road. Without the government there would be no way an oligopoly would stop people from competing.

If you look at old pictures of the future back when roads were first being developed you had airships, airplanes all over, walkways from building to building, etc. We only have a car dominated transportation system we have now because the roads are "free". There would be many different sorts of transportation if roads were not free.


Then again, you are certainly not the first person to ask about the roads when it comes to no taxes.

Here is the official "what about the roads?" thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345749.0

[BADecker]

If you look at old pictures of the future back when roads were first being developed you had airships, airplanes all over, walkways from building to building, etc. We only have a car dominated transportation system we have now because the roads are "free". There would be many different sorts of transportation if roads were not free.

Then again, you are certainly not the first person to ask about the roads when it comes to no taxes.

Here is the official "what about the roads?" thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345749.0

Right! And the only one to make money off virtually everything is Government. Think of the postal system. UPS and FedEx have to jump through all kinds of legal hoops to get to deliver packages. And they are almost always required to use the postal system for part of their delivery. And they aren't allowed to deliver mail like the postal system does. So government has their monopoly hands in almost everything.

[Tornadocrazy]

Well, if we look up the word "theft," we'll notice it means 'dishonestly taking something that belongs to someone else and keeping it (or stealing, i.e. taking something without the permission or knowledge of the owner and keeping it).'
The key words here are without the permission or knowledge , which contradicts the process of taxation. I mean, you know that they are taking the money from you, but on the other hand, they never ask you for permission or whether or not you are willing to do so
So, it's a theft only by half and only providing you're not willing to do so. If you are, then it isn't a theft at all, IMHO.

[BADecker]

Well, if we look up the word "theft," we'll notice it means 'dishonestly taking something that belongs to someone else and keeping it (or stealing, i.e. taking something without the permission or knowledge of the owner and keeping it).'
The key words here are without the permission or knowledge , which contradicts the process of taxation. I mean, you know that they are taking the money from you, but on the other hand, they never ask you for permission or whether or not you are willing to do so
So, it's a theft only by half and only providing you're not willing to do so. If you are, then it isn't a theft at all, IMHO.

If you are willing, it isn't taxation. It is donation.   

[Elwar]

Well, if we look up the word "theft," we'll notice it means 'dishonestly taking something that belongs to someone else and keeping it (or stealing, i.e. taking something without the permission or knowledge of the owner and keeping it).'
The key words here are without the permission or knowledge , which contradicts the process of taxation. I mean, you know that they are taking the money from you, but on the other hand, they never ask you for permission or whether or not you are willing to do so
So, it's a theft only by half and only providing you're not willing to do so. If you are, then it isn't a theft at all, IMHO.

Look up the word tax:

[Troubleshoot]

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

Your video made me think a little different. Let me share my ideas on the subject a little later, I need some time to get my thoughts together...
But thanks for sharing!

[Vice2vice]

Yeah, it sounds more like a theft to me to, but what are other ways to get money to the government budget for public works? Just feeling confused... a little...

[Bitchef2112]

If you don't subscribe to the "social contract" philosophy, then consequently, it is theft.

[Wasp094]

It sure is, but do you have any suggestions as to how we can legally protect ourselves from it? That would be just great, wouldn't it?

[Dawson_V]

No, I do not think that way. First, governments need money to build roads, schools and hospitals. One way to get that money is to tax businesses and people. When you leave in developed countries, you know that the quality of the infrastructures is good. People in poor countries will not be able to say the same. It is a fact. Infrastructures in those countries are really bad and even some do not have decent hospitals. There, governments do not earn enough tax money. For that reason, the quality of public service is a shame. Secondly, taxation helps us build a better society. Not everybody is rich. Well, wealthy people can help others by paying some extra taxes. All this is good, biblical and wise. I see nothing wrong with the system.

[Elwar]

Thanks again for the detailed response. Oligopoly was a new word for me. I can see that it's more or less the same as a monopoly, but it's just when a small group of companies have "monopoly" over a market, rather than just one. You talk about governments enabling collusion. How does this happen? Aren't there actually laws against price collusion? I think your farm example. That does make sense to me. Why wouldn't that be possible in today's market? On the other hand, a road as long as your farm land may not be that useful. People would still have to continue on the other road. The big company could just not build on-ramps and off-ramps to the farmers road. They'd also have to have a tolling system that could cut that portion of the roads out of what the drivers pay.

Governments enable collusion, especially in the US, by making entry into a market more difficult. Either through regulations, permits, expensive legal hoops to jump through, etc.
Imagine you have a car design that is better and cheaper than all current cars sold. You build the car in your garage and want to start selling and scaling up to full production of these cars. Do you really think you could just set up a factory and start selling them? No. The amount of regulations required to become a car manufacturer is insane. It's almost as if the 3 or 4 auto manufacturers in the country are paying politicians or something. Tesla tried to do it on their own but had to play ball and pay off the government to get to the point of being able to sell cars.
Almost every other industry has permits, required certifications and schooling, etc. These are not for any useful purpose other than keeping out competition.

I currently live in French Polynesia where there are only 3 banks. No new banks can be created due to the amount of regulation requirements to open one. So the 3 banks set the prices on various things very high. It costs about 20% to exchange dollars to francs. And of course, only the banks are allowed to exchange currencies due to government regulations. If there were no government intrusion into money exchanges you'd have people at the airport charging 2-3% just standing there waiting as people get off the plane. You'd have your taxi driver exchanging cash for you. I'd be able to set up a bitcoin exchange here, an ATM at the airport. But it's not allowed.

[enogheghase123]

taxation isnt theft, it is a civic responsibility a citizen owe to his country, state and province, but multiple taxation can be considered extortion.

[YoutubeTV]

Two things we can all count on: death and taxes

[Cryptojuni]

No, taxes are been imposed on every citizen of every nation as to enable the government to provide the basic social amenities to the citizens and also to invest in international trades, importation of foreign goods for the betterment of the citizens of the nations. but is quite unfortunate that reverse is the case, in the sens that most of our leaders chooses to embezzle the taxes paid by the citizens instead of using the resources to achieve the goals by which the taxes are paid for.