Is taxation theft?

[BADecker]

Two things.

You can only give back to government if you receive something from them. That is not what taxation is about. Rather, giving back is repaying a loan. Taxation is stealing when it isn't really owed.

When you are made (forced) to do something, it is called slavery. If you are forced to be a slave for government, they call it "involuntary servitude," and the reason why they don't what people to be slaves of other people is, it would take away their power of slave-master over all.

[coins4commies]

You do not have to pay taxes because you do not have to earn taxable income.  Income that is not benefiting from public services is not taxable.   You want to benefit from public services without having to pay into it.  What you want is to live in a well-functioning society for free. 

[Elwar]

You do not have to pay taxes because you do not have to earn taxable income.  Income that is not benefiting from public services is not taxable.   You want to benefit from public services without having to pay into it.  What you want is to live in a well-functioning society for free. 

Obamacare is a tax on being alive.

You no longer have a choice of not paying taxes by not earning income.

[Spendulus]

You do not have to pay taxes because you do not have to earn taxable income.  Income that is not benefiting from public services is not taxable.   You want to benefit from public services without having to pay into it.  What you want is to live in a well-functioning society for free. 

Obamacare is a tax on being alive.

You no longer have a choice of not paying taxes by not earning income.

Yes, you do. Trump fixed that by eliminating the personal mandate.

[yogg]

Before government came along, people took care of each other, and the various churches organized a lot of it. It was almost 100% volunteer work. Even if a church required a tithe, anybody could quit the church. But it is very difficult to quit the government and taxation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England

It has always happened, in some ways.
The cash will be removed soon. There will be only online transactions from cards, apple pays to google wallets, etc ..
You can buy groceries with those today.
We're very lucky to have bitcoin. This is a game changer. It will happen over time.

[BADecker]

Before government came along, people took care of each other, and the various churches organized a lot of it. It was almost 100% volunteer work. Even if a church required a tithe, anybody could quit the church. But it is very difficult to quit the government and taxation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England

Monty Python - Constitutional Peasants Scene - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng.

[flametoken]

Actually, taxation is extortion, not theft. Theft means "the action or crime of stealing". Extortion means "the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats".

I know the motto "Taxation is theft" sounds good, but it's not as accurate as "Taxation is extortion".

[Elwar]

Actually, taxation is extortion, not theft. Theft means "the action or crime of stealing". Extortion means "the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats".

I know the motto "Taxation is theft" sounds good, but it's not as accurate as "Taxation is extortion".

True story.

But most people don't know the definition of extortion.

[Spendulus]

Actually, taxation is extortion, not theft. Theft means "the action or crime of stealing". Extortion means "the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats".

I know the motto "Taxation is theft" sounds good, but it's not as accurate as "Taxation is extortion".

True story.

But most people don't know the definition of extortion.

Then there is taxation as a con game, a confidence game, in which willing suckers are induced to part with their money on false premises.

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan."

[cryptohunter]

Taxes are too high. Gov is too large. Inequality is too extreme.

If we can't reset and start from scratch (which we can not it seems)

Then to try to formulate a plan from where we are now to create a more fair and more enjoyable stable sytem is much harder than I thought without some form of tax. Other than to stream line gov and make it as efficient as possible and iron out as much corruption as possible and some other well meaning tweaks maybe a great deal more pay as you use services/care .... but to reduce tax to zero and juggle stability seemed as I mentioned quite tricky to me anyway.

Of course if you are born free with no contract signed ever then forced to pay tax is theft. However for that to be fair on those opting in you would somehow have to remain totally outside of that system and any benefits at all that it provided unless this was opt in payasyougo services/care only.

I do think the gradual decentralisation, trustless and transparent nature of this arena will make things better and you will get more for less tax in the end but it could take some time or could not happen like that at all.

That is where I had got too anyway I;m certain far smarter people will debunk these ideas with ease but at least i can then see where I was going wrong.

[Elwar]

Taxes are too high. Gov is too large. Inequality is too extreme.

If we can't reset and start from scratch (which we can not it seems)

Then to try to formulate a plan from where we are now to create a more fair and more enjoyable stable sytem is much harder than I thought without some form of tax. Other than to stream line gov and make it as efficient as possible and iron out as much corruption as possible and some other well meaning tweaks maybe a great deal more pay as you use services/care .... but to reduce tax to zero and juggle stability seemed as I mentioned quite tricky to me anyway.

Of course if you are born free with no contract signed ever then forced to pay tax is theft. However for that to be fair on those opting in you would somehow have to remain totally outside of that system and any benefits at all that it provided unless this was opt in payasyougo services/care only.

I do think the gradual decentralisation, trustless and transparent nature of this arena will make things better and you will get more for less tax in the end but it could take some time or could not happen like that at all.

That is where I had got too anyway I;m certain far smarter people will debunk these ideas with ease but at least i can then see where I was going wrong.

Is it fair if someone takes food from a church that is feeding people...and then they never give anything to the church?

How many people in countries that the US gives foreign aid to are paying US taxes?

[Teleshot]

Anyone that uses the phrase "taxation is theft" also wants to privatize all of the things that are currently being paid for with taxes. This hypothetical person of yours arguing to abolish taxes without also abolishing public services does not actually exist

[Zeth]

and how much of your taxes go to creating a "free and civilized society" and how much goes to the bloated salaries of your "representatives. keeping in mind that no matter how much you get taxed the government is always broke for some reason.

[Ying]

Taxes are the price the rich pay the poor in exchange for the poor not hauling out the guillotines.
So really, they're not theft so much as extortion.

[ToRs]

Taxation is not theft. Taxation is the dues for semi-mandatory membership to an enormous resource cooperative. How quickly anarcho-anythingists forget the simple joy of having flush toilets. Now, what happens to those dues AFTER collection – that's theft. And who's doing the thieving?
.. Anarcho-capitalists. Yeah, good luck with all that "liberty" when there's no authority to stop them from enslaving you completely.

[Cloudy]

Taxation is not theft. Taxation is the dues for semi-mandatory membership to an enormous resource cooperative. How quickly anarcho-anythingists forget the simple joy of having flush toilets. Now, what happens to those dues AFTER collection – that's theft. And who's doing the thieving?
.. Anarcho-capitalists. Yeah, good luck with all that "liberty" when there's no authority to stop them from enslaving you completely.

they seem to think that private companies would be better as if they wouldn't do something similar or worse like pay to just use the bathroom in the first place then make you pay to flush it

[Elwar]

Taxation is not theft. Taxation is the dues for semi-mandatory membership to an enormous resource cooperative. How quickly anarcho-anythingists forget the simple joy of having flush toilets. Now, what happens to those dues AFTER collection – that's theft. And who's doing the thieving?
.. Anarcho-capitalists. Yeah, good luck with all that "liberty" when there's no authority to stop them from enslaving you completely.

they seem to think that private companies would be better as if they wouldn't do something similar or worse like pay to just use the bathroom in the first place then make you pay to flush it

But you would at least have a choice in what you're paying for.

I do not see much value in my contributions toward phosphorous bombing women and children in some far off place.

[cryptohunter]

Taxes are too high. Gov is too large. Inequality is too extreme.

If we can't reset and start from scratch (which we can not it seems)

Then to try to formulate a plan from where we are now to create a more fair and more enjoyable stable sytem is much harder than I thought without some form of tax. Other than to stream line gov and make it as efficient as possible and iron out as much corruption as possible and some other well meaning tweaks maybe a great deal more pay as you use services/care .... but to reduce tax to zero and juggle stability seemed as I mentioned quite tricky to me anyway.

Of course if you are born free with no contract signed ever then forced to pay tax is theft. However for that to be fair on those opting in you would somehow have to remain totally outside of that system and any benefits at all that it provided unless this was opt in payasyougo services/care only.

I do think the gradual decentralisation, trustless and transparent nature of this arena will make things better and you will get more for less tax in the end but it could take some time or could not happen like that at all.

That is where I had got too anyway I;m certain far smarter people will debunk these ideas with ease but at least i can then see where I was going wrong.

Is it fair if someone takes food from a church that is feeding people...and then they never give anything to the church?

How many people in countries that the US gives foreign aid to are paying US taxes?

No that would not be fair if they ever had an excess  to give back. Can you explain how that relates to the part of my post that you bolded? I mean it might but I can't see it.

[Elwar]

Taxes are too high. Gov is too large. Inequality is too extreme.

If we can't reset and start from scratch (which we can not it seems)

Then to try to formulate a plan from where we are now to create a more fair and more enjoyable stable sytem is much harder than I thought without some form of tax. Other than to stream line gov and make it as efficient as possible and iron out as much corruption as possible and some other well meaning tweaks maybe a great deal more pay as you use services/care .... but to reduce tax to zero and juggle stability seemed as I mentioned quite tricky to me anyway.

Of course if you are born free with no contract signed ever then forced to pay tax is theft. However for that to be fair on those opting in you would somehow have to remain totally outside of that system and any benefits at all that it provided unless this was opt in payasyougo services/care only.

I do think the gradual decentralisation, trustless and transparent nature of this arena will make things better and you will get more for less tax in the end but it could take some time or could not happen like that at all.

That is where I had got too anyway I;m certain far smarter people will debunk these ideas with ease but at least i can then see where I was going wrong.

Is it fair if someone takes food from a church that is feeding people...and then they never give anything to the church?

How many people in countries that the US gives foreign aid to are paying US taxes?

No that would not be fair if they ever had an excess  to give back. Can you explain how that relates to the part of my post that you bolded? I mean it might but I can't see it.

You imply that it is not fair to receive benefits without paying in.

A charity provides benefits to people without expecting anything in return.

Government spends. That is their choice. They don't have to. But they choose to.

That is completely unrelated to them stealing peoples' money. If someone voluntarily donated all of their money to the government so that they would have the same amount of money as taxes they would spend it just the same. If a country bought a shitload of bitcoin at $1 and now has enough to for spending for the next 100 years they would spend it. It would not be expected that the people "pay them back" out of "fairness".

Or, when you give to charity, are you expecting to be compensated by the charity at some point?

[cryptohunter]

Taxes are too high. Gov is too large. Inequality is too extreme.

If we can't reset and start from scratch (which we can not it seems)

Then to try to formulate a plan from where we are now to create a more fair and more enjoyable stable sytem is much harder than I thought without some form of tax. Other than to stream line gov and make it as efficient as possible and iron out as much corruption as possible and some other well meaning tweaks maybe a great deal more pay as you use services/care .... but to reduce tax to zero and juggle stability seemed as I mentioned quite tricky to me anyway.

Of course if you are born free with no contract signed ever then forced to pay tax is theft. However for that to be fair on those opting in you would somehow have to remain totally outside of that system and any benefits at all that it provided unless this was opt in payasyougo services/care only.

I do think the gradual decentralisation, trustless and transparent nature of this arena will make things better and you will get more for less tax in the end but it could take some time or could not happen like that at all.

That is where I had got too anyway I;m certain far smarter people will debunk these ideas with ease but at least i can then see where I was going wrong.

Is it fair if someone takes food from a church that is feeding people...and then they never give anything to the church?

How many people in countries that the US gives foreign aid to are paying US taxes?

No that would not be fair if they ever had an excess  to give back. Can you explain how that relates to the part of my post that you bolded? I mean it might but I can't see it.

You imply that it is not fair to receive benefits without paying in.

A charity provides benefits to people without expecting anything in return.

Government spends. That is their choice. They don't have to. But they choose to.

That is completely unrelated to them stealing peoples' money. If someone voluntarily donated all of their money to the government so that they would have the same amount of money as taxes they would spend it just the same. If a country bought a shitload of bitcoin at $1 and now has enough to for spending for the next 100 years they would spend it. It would not be expected that the people "pay them back" out of "fairness".

Or, when you give to charity, are you expecting to be compensated by the charity at some point?

Well you do have a point. Charities do not give out expecting to get something in return.

However, personally for me if i had received money or assistance from a charity on the basis of an illness or just because at one time I was hungry without food, then later in life I found myself with some surplus of funds I would donate to that charity that helped me previously.

I think it is fair to take from any source who will willingly give. I would likely pay back plus more if I could later. If i was never in that position then I don't think it would be unfair if I never reciprocated.

With tax if a system was developed you never had to pay in unless you wanted. Then it would be like joining a club with membership. I don't expect to enter club that members have to pay for for free and get the benefits they are funding.

Charity a different case.