Ripple or Bitcoin

[Melbustus]

Is Ripple's consensus algorithm another novel solution to the Byzantine General's problem? If so, how? If not, why doesn't it need to solve that problem?

[1714289036]

1714289036

[Terpie]

Pardon my ignorance as I try to wrap my head around Ripple, but couldn't it just use BTC instead of XRP? How would it not work as well? Is the only reason for it not working as well with BTC is that Opencoin wouldn't have a stock of XRP to hand out to promote the system? If that's the only case it doesn't sound like a good reason. If so I would assume that as soon as Ripple becomes open source a fork would be created with people opting to prefer their "free-ish" transaction fee be denominated in BTC as opposed to XRP?

Joel, can you clarify that this is not one of the motivating factors for not open sourcing the code for the servers yet?

[JoelKatz]

Pardon my ignorance as I try to wrap my head around Ripple, but couldn't it just use BTC instead of XRP?

Not any way that I know of. There's another thread where I solicited suggestions for a way to make that work and nobody came up with any.

How would it not work as well?

The primary problem is that there's no known way to take Bitcoins off the Bitcoin chain such that they can be returned to it that doesn't require a central authority or have other significant drawbacks. There are a variety of other issues that were discussed in the thread where that was first proposed

Is the only reason for it not working as well with BTC is that Opencoin wouldn't have a stock of XRP to hand out to promote the system? If that's the only case it doesn't sound like a good reason.

That's not the only reason, but that's a very good reason by itself. Getting mass adoption is far from a sure thing. Being able to make it free for as many people as possible for as long as possible significantly decreases the chances that all the develop effort will be for nothing. Not to mention, XRP funds the development and ensures there's a healthy company standing behind the network.

If so I would assume that as soon as Ripple becomes open source a fork would be created with people opting to prefer their "free-ish" transaction fee be denominated in BTC as opposed to XRP?

Who would the BTC be paid to? Would those transactions have to take place in the Bitcoin chain? How would you ensure that someone couldn't game the system be being on both sides of that BTC transaction?

If so I would assume that as soon as Ripple becomes open source a fork would be created with people opting to prefer their "free-ish" transaction fee be denominated in BTC as opposed to XRP?

Joel, can you clarify that this is not one of the motivating factors for not open sourcing the code for the servers yet?

Since I don't think that's technically feasible, it's definitely not one of the motivating factors. There are too many unsolved technical problems to making that work, and I don't see what the pitch for this network would be -- "It's just like OpenCoin's Ripple network except there's is free and you have to buy Bitcoins to use ours" doesn't sound very attractive to me.

[misterbigg]

Pardon my ignorance as I try to wrap my head around Ripple, but couldn't it just use BTC instead of XRP?

Not any way that I know of. There's another thread where I solicited suggestions for a way to make that work and nobody came up with any.

Let's not be intellectually dishonest. If there was any real motivation, Ripple could have been designed so that XRPs were produced as the result of proof of work. The XRP production schedule could be set to create 100 billion XRP over the course of 10 years at either a fixed or a decelerating rate, with the target difficulty adjusted to maintain the rate of production.

Of course, you guys objected to that because of the "wasted electricity" but unlike Bitcoin, Ripple's XRP production via proof of work would eventually end, with total power consumption dropping to zero (no more mining). After the source is released, anyone can make this change. The total power requirements for using proof of work to distribute XRPs using a stochastic process would be finite.

XRP Exchanges identical to Bitcoin exchanges (but hopefully not identical in terms of MtGox lag) would crop up that let you buy and sell these mined XRPs so that people can do things like open up accounts.

Now the drawback of this method is that there is no obvious way to fund the development of the software. I rather like that OpenCoin has a profit motive and a path to generate revenue. It ensures that we get good solid source code with lots of unit tests and juicy wiki / API specs / documentation. Plus, Ripple gets guidance via CEO and a board of directors who are doing the legwork to make the system successful, instead of a bunch of neckbeards whose idea of satisfying customers is implementing "M of N signature transactions".

[grondilu]

Pardon my ignorance as I try to wrap my head around Ripple, but couldn't it just use BTC instead of XRP?

Not any way that I know of. There's another thread where I solicited suggestions for a way to make that work and nobody came up with any.

Let's not be intellectually dishonest. If there was any real motivation, Ripple could have been designed so that XRPs were produced as the result of proof of work. The XRP production schedule could be set to create 100 billion XRP over the course of 10 years at either a fixed or a decelerating rate, with the target difficulty adjusted to maintain the rate of production.

Good point.  It would also have solved the problem of initial distribution, which I still don't know how OpenCoin intends of solving.  Just saying "we'll give ripples to everyone" is not very serious, for if XRP gets any monetary value, lots of people will fake identities in order to get as many ripples as possible.   Instead of the CPU rule there will be a "cheating" rule.

Or OpenCoin could just bluntly sell ripples to the public, without giving any of them for free or at least not systematically.  But such a strategy would not seem compatible with an open-source project, as anyone could sell a similar product as soon as the source code is released.

I think it's a conundrum.  It's too bad because I really appreciate what they are doing.  We really need a distributed IOU market as it permits the decentralization of the exchange.   The software seems very smart and well written but there are a few aspects that seem to not fit together very well.

[JoelKatz]

Just saying "we'll give ripples to everyone" is not very serious, for if XRP gets any monetary value, lots of people will fake identities in order to get as many ripples as possible.   Instead of the CPU rule there will be a "cheating" rule.

That's probably true, despite our best efforts. But really, how much does it matter? It will just mean the giveaway won't be quite as effective as it could have been because it won't get as many users. But we know people are participating in the giveaways just to sell the XRP anyway. It won't make Ripple any less usable as a payment system.

[grondilu]

Just saying "we'll give ripples to everyone" is not very serious, for if XRP gets any monetary value, lots of people will fake identities in order to get as many ripples as possible.   Instead of the CPU rule there will be a "cheating" rule.

That's probably true, despite our best efforts. But really, how much does it matter? It will just mean the giveaway won't be quite as effective as it could have been because it won't get as many users. But we know people are participating in the giveaways just to sell the XRP anyway. It won't make Ripple any less usable as a payment system.

Well, to be fair it might indeed not matter much.  Lots of ripple proponents advocate for it in opposition to bitcoin, which they see as a speculative asset.  They also seem to think that hoarding is bad, so a currency should lose its value with time.  Therefore people might not be trying too hard to acquire ripples, so the amount of "cheating" might be low.

I has to be tried anyway.

[herzmeister]

I would have guessed you either have to buy XRPs to activate an account, or you get free XRPs but you must provide ID. Probably that will work through a gateway, to which you have to connect anyway.

[grondilu]

I would have guessed you either have to buy XRPs to activate an account, or you get free XRPs but you must provide ID. Probably that will work through a gateway, to which you have to connect anyway.

This would give a lot of power to the gateway, since it could create fake accounts.

[herzmeister]

but it will be the gateways that are exposed to all the legal and AML stuff I would have thought.

[JoelKatz]

Is Ripple's consensus algorithm another novel solution to the Byzantine General's problem? If so, how? If not, why doesn't it need to solve that problem?

Essentially, Ripple solves the BG problem by having an intermediate "unable to agree" state and designing the system such that nothing terrible happens if some nodes are unable to agree. If a node isn't confident that it has an agreement with the majority of other participating nodes, then it doesn't report transactions to clients as validated.

[dadrizforshizz]

Is Ripple's consensus algorithm another novel solution to the Byzantine General's problem? If so, how? If not, why doesn't it need to solve that problem?

Essentially, Ripple solves the BG problem by having an intermediate "unable to agree" state and designing the system such that nothing terrible happens if some nodes are unable to agree. If a node isn't confident that it has an agreement with the majority of other participating nodes, then it doesn't report transactions to clients as validated.

Everything about ripple is a great idea except the stupid currency

It just screams "hey i designed this to make myself rich!!!!"

[misterbigg]

Everything about ripple is a great idea except the stupid currency

It just screams "hey i designed this to make myself rich!!!!"

Yep, you're in stage 2 of the 3 stages of Ripple emotion:

1. Denial: "This can't work, and it's closed source!"
2. Anger: "Cool system but, they gave themselves all the money!"
3. Acceptance: "Ripple is going to be huge despite the pre-mine."

[Terpie]

Everything about ripple is a great idea except the stupid currency

It just screams "hey i designed this to make myself rich!!!!"

Yep, you're in stage 2 of the 3 stages of Ripple emotion:

1. Denial: "This can't work, and it's closed source!"
2. Anger: "Cool system but, they gave themselves all the money!"
3. Acceptance: "Ripple is going to be huge despite the pre-mine."

Except it seems they have a chicken/egg problem. The whole idea of using a crypto-currency is to avoid counterparty risk to the extreme (along with the speed/portability of digital media). That is the principle that most bitcoiners want in their currency. Here, we have Ripple/OpenCoin saying, hey look, theoretically we would have no incentive to dump our coins, stay closed source & centralized, harm other forks, comply with onerous government demands. However, the counterparty risk still currently exists. I don't care if they say, "We won't do that!". I want to know that they can't do that.

And for all the talk of a limited supply of coins, there is an argument to be made that any holder of a large enough % of total currency can act essentially as a central bank, albeit with an absolute cap. Would I feel better about the Federal Reserve's or Bank of Japan's policy if they had a hard limit on their currency of 100 quintillion dollars/yen? No, because the cap imposes no real limit on the immediate or mid-term future. I feel very uncomfortable using a currency where one entity effectively controls 99.99% of all currency units.

[misterbigg]

Except it seems they have a chicken/egg problem. The whole idea of using a crypto-currency is to avoid counterparty risk to the extreme (along with the speed/portability of digital media). That is the principle that most bitcoiners want in their currency. Here, we have Ripple/OpenCoin saying, hey look, theoretically we would have no incentive to dump our coins, stay closed source & centralized, harm other forks, comply with onerous government demands. However, the counterparty risk still currently exists. I don't care if they say, "We won't do that!". I want to know that they can't do that.

Except that Ripple serves TWO functions (not just one, like Bitcoin). You can create a Ripple wallet, deposit money into your preferred gateway, send and receive payments in a cryptographically secure way, and redeem money at your preferred gateway, all without ever using XRP as a currency or holding a position in XRP.

People from Bitcoinlandia tend to view other crypto-currency systems with in a myopic way. XRP are there only if you want them. They can be pretty useful to provide liquidity between U.S. dollar denominated IOUs from different gateways (and with the liquidity provider / arbitrageur making a small profit on the trade). Regular users won't see these behind the scenes activities, they will just enjoy the benefits of highly liquid markets and the network effects that Ripple allows.

I feel very uncomfortable using a currency where one entity effectively controls 99.99% of all currency units.

Right. And as I said you don't have to use XRP as a currency if you don't want to.

[JoelKatz]

I would have guessed you either have to buy XRPs to activate an account, or you get free XRPs but you must provide ID. Probably that will work through a gateway, to which you have to connect anyway.

Giving gateways XRP to give to customers as a way of getting their existing customers interested in Ripple and their new customers Ripple accounts is definitely on our list of possible giveaways.

[datafish]

People from Bitcoinlandia tend to view other crypto-currency systems with in a myopic way. XRP are there only if you want them. They can be pretty useful to provide liquidity between U.S. dollar denominated IOUs from different gateways (and with the liquidity provider / arbitrageur making a small profit on the trade). Regular users won't see these behind the scenes activities, they will just enjoy the benefits of highly liquid markets and the network effects that Ripple allows.

Right.  The title of this thread should really be Ripple and Bitcoin.  It's not altogether clear that XRP will catch on as a currency at all.  I see Bitcoin and Ripple as very complementary, and people should focus on making them work together rather than dividing into separate camps.  Ripple does nothing to prevent governments around the world from debasing their currencies (and does nothing to prevent OpenCoin from debasing XRP), so anyone concerned about this will hold Bitcoin.  It can be the digital gold that backs up the Ripple network.  At the same time, we all know how stressed at the seams Bitcoin has become serving as a micro-transaction system.  Let Satoshi Dice and others move their small transactions over to Ripple and let Bitcoin be a store of value.

[mmeijeri]

It just screams "hey i designed this to make myself rich!!!!"

 So what? Many people here hold some BTC in the hope it will be very valuable one day. And the stash of XRP allows them to run a business and to stabilise the exchange rate, both of which are great for adoption. And adoption is the number one problem.

[dadrizforshizz]

It just screams "hey i designed this to make myself rich!!!!"

 So what? Many people here hold some BTC in the hope it will be very valuable one day. And the stash of XRP allows them to run a business and to stabilise the exchange rate, both of which are great for adoption. And adoption is the number one problem.

Yea adoption, not get rich quick schemes...

[r.willis]

JoelKatz, can you give us estimate when ripple server will be opensourced?