Ripple or Bitcoin

[Mitzplik]

this night some people sold 40k BTC in mtgox and the price fell to 120. Like 8% in hours. This is not a steadiness standard. BTC is very volatile when people do this, suggesting its not very well distributed.

If various arguments about the centralization of Bitcoin bother you, then you're in luck, because it's a self-correcting process which has been improving since the genesis block.

What you are saying is: As largely used is a currency, more steady its value, I agree. XRP and BTC obey the same laws, except that in XRP case there is one known big fish - OpenCoin, its central bank. In BTC, USD, GBP cases there are big fishes. Soros could defeat the Bank of England once. All currencies have controllers, but they don't wanna screw their treasuries, they just want to make more money.

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[Mitzplik]

this night some people sold 40k BTC in mtgox and the price fell to 120. Like 8% in hours. This is not a steadiness standard. BTC is very volatile when people do this, suggesting its not very well distributed.

Sigh.

Bitcoin's volatility has decreased on average over time, yet people keep focusing on the fact that "it is not yet extremely stable." Well, stability comes with time. A $5m dump on the market a year ago would've dropped it like 70%. Today it drops it 10%. Next year it'll drop it 2%.

If BTC market is 1B USD today, and a 4M USD selling decreases 10% of the value, it means that a small percentage of BTC is being traded. It suggests that the big majority is silently held by OpenCoin-like players. People who paid very cheap price for their big amount of BTC and defend private (own) interests.

I think when ripple is ubiquitous and XRP mostly distributed, opencoin will suffer a lot of pressure for transparency and predictability.

[crazy_rabbit]

This should be moved to the Alt Coin section. No reason why Ripple conversations get to stay out of the ALT coin subforum.

[mmeijeri]

It should stay right here. The lack of distributed exchanges is one of Bitcoin's biggest problems right now. Ripple provides Bitcoin with an excellent solution for that (and so does Open Transactions) and that deserves a lot of attention. Those who are worried about XRP should not be allowed to censor the discussion.

[evoorhees]

It should stay right here. The lack of distributed exchanges is one of Bitcoin's biggest problems right now. Ripple provides Bitcoin with an excellent solution for that (and so does Open Transactions) and that deserves a lot of attention. Those who are worried about XRP should not be allowed to censor the discussion.

Again this is more misinformation. Ripple does not provide any decentralized exchange. The fiat half of any exchange must sit in a physical bank account somewhere. Whether this is gateways in ripple or exchanges in Bitcoin, in both cases the same vulnerabilities exist.

Ripple claims that the exchange process is decentralized because they're talking about the exchange of fiat IOU's for BTC, not fiat for BTC. You can set up a fiat IOU destributed exchange with Bitcoin as well. But Ripple has better marketing and branding so people seem to think it's some magic new phenomenon.

For those who want a decentralized IOU exchange, Ripple is great. A decentralized asset exchange, it is not.

[mmeijeri]

Again this is more misinformation.

I'm not trying to spread misinformation. If you read my posts, you'll see that's the truth.

Ripple does not provide any decentralized exchange. The fiat half of any exchange must sit in a physical bank account somewhere.

No, that's not true, it could be cash in someone's hand.

Whether this is gateways in ripple or exchanges in Bitcoin, in both cases the same vulnerabilities exist.

Not for informal exchanges.

Ripple claims that the exchange process is decentralized because they're talking about the exchange of fiat IOU's for BTC, not fiat for BTC. You can set up a fiat IOU destributed exchange with Bitcoin as well.

Of course that could happen, and I'd welcome it. Open Transactions could be an important part of that.

But Ripple has better marketing and branding so people seem to think it's some magic new phenomenon.

Ripple doesn't just have better branding and marketing, partly as a result of its much-maligned funding and distribution model, it also has a working implementation, again as a result of that model.

For those who want a decentralized IOU exchange, Ripple is great. A decentralized asset exchange, it is not.

That alone would be a major step forward, and very good news for Bitcoin.

[MPOE-PR]

This should be moved to the Alt Coin section. No reason why Ripple conversations get to stay out of the ALT coin subforum.

Very much this, although perhaps it is time to finally add a ScamCoin subforum. No reason solidcoin, novacoin, ripplecoin and all the rest of the scammy alts should be associated with LTC for instance. All new coins start in ScamCoin, after two years if still around maybe they get moved to AltCoin status.

Ripple claims that the exchange process is decentralized because they're talking about the exchange of fiat IOU's for BTC, not fiat for BTC. You can set up a fiat IOU destributed exchange with Bitcoin as well. But Ripple has better marketing and branding so people seem to think it's some magic new phenomenon.

Indeed, especially for any value of people in the set {clueless noob; invested shill}.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Very much this, although perhaps it is time to finally add a ScamCoin subforum. No reason solidcoin, novacoin, ripplecoin and all the rest of the scammy alts should be associated with LTC for instance. All new coins start in ScamCoin, after two years if still around maybe they get moved to AltCoin status.

I don't normally like you posts, but this is actually a pretty damn Brilliant idea.

However the forum should not be called "Scam coins", but "Untested / Unproved AltCoins".

[bitcoinbear]

It should stay right here. The lack of distributed exchanges is one of Bitcoin's biggest problems right now. Ripple provides Bitcoin with an excellent solution for that (and so does Open Transactions) and that deserves a lot of attention. Those who are worried about XRP should not be allowed to censor the discussion.

Again this is more misinformation. Ripple does not provide any decentralized exchange. The fiat half of any exchange must sit in a physical bank account somewhere. Whether this is gateways in ripple or exchanges in Bitcoin, in both cases the same vulnerabilities exist.

The way Ripple allows a more decentralized exchange is by allowing trading using multiple inlet streams. To trade on MtGox there must be fiat sitting in MtGox's account. But to trade on Ripple, the fiat can be sitting in any of the gateways' bank accounts. Currently there are only a couple gateways, but already that is more than the single account which is MtGox. As Ripple grows, more gateways will be added, increasing the decentralization.

As for the title of the thread, "Ripple or Bitcoin", why not both? To me it seems they can work together, Bitcoin for value storage and trustless transactions, Ripple for credit and fast/small transactions. The bitcoin protocol is limited to a certain number of transactions every ten minutes and coins take an hour to confirm, I see Ripple as a way of allowing the bitcoin ecosystem to swallow a much higher frequency of transactions.

[mmeijeri]

The way Ripple allows a more decentralized exchange is by allowing trading using multiple inlet streams. To trade on MtGox there must be fiat sitting in MtGox's account. But to trade on Ripple, the fiat can be sitting in any of the gateways' bank accounts. Currently there are only a couple gateways, but already that is more than the single account which is MtGox. As Ripple grows, more gateways will be added, increasing the decentralization.

Erik's point appears to be that a gateway will hold the money backing its IOUs in a bank. And that's the optimistic scenario, when they're not doing fractional reserve banking. And of course, the bank that hold your money for them does practice fractional reserve banking.

For professional gateways, the argument is likely correct. But for informal networks (or maybe the hawala network), this need not be the case. One of the cool things about the rippling system is that it nets transactions for you and allows you to do the settlements of those netted transactions in cash with your direct connections in the trust graph.

[MPOE-PR]

However the forum should not be called "Scam coins", but "Untested / Unproved AltCoins".

That works.

[Mitzplik]

However the forum should not be called "Scam coins", but "Untested / Unproved AltCoins".

That works.

I agree

[ElectricMucus]

So does that mean you guys will shut up once the beta ends and rippled is released as promised?

[Mitzplik]

So does that mean you guys will shut up once the beta ends and rippled is released as promised?

Too radical

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

So does that mean you guys will shut up once the beta ends and rippled is released as promised?

Probably.
The question is: will it really happen ?

[JoelKatz]

So does that mean you guys will shut up once the beta ends and rippled is released as promised?

Probably.
The question is: will it really happen ?

I am personally committed to ensuring this happens by the end of the year at the very latest and, I hope, around September. We have been focusing on outside audits of the source code, increasing the number of, and geographic distribution of, organizations that run validators to gather more real-world data on the behavior of the code, testing the logic that controls changes to the transaction processing rules, and so on.

Bitcoin makes a lot of design sacrifices to enable it to operate as a distributed system with no central authorities. Whenever anyone suggests making a centralized system based on Bitcoin, everyone rightly points out that you have to accept all those sacrifices and in exchange get no benefits. That's just bad engineering. Ripple similarly makes lots of design sacrifices to enable it to operate as a distributed system with no central authorities. Not running it that way, you gain absolutely nothing in exchange for those design sacrifices (other than to validate the design).

[oakpacific]

So does that mean you guys will shut up once the beta ends and rippled is released as promised?

Probably.
The question is: will it really happen ?

The most popcorn worthy drama is how OpenCoin is going to inject the remaining 49 billion something XRPs into the market.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

So does that mean you guys will shut up once the beta ends and rippled is released as promised?

Probably.
The question is: will it really happen ?

I am personally committed to ensuring this happens by the end of the year at the very latest and, I hope, around September. We have been focusing on outside audits of the source code, increasing the number of, and geographic distribution of, organizations that run validators to gather more real-world data on the behavior of the code, testing the logic that controls changes to the transaction processing rules, and so on.

Hey Joel, let me understand something.

Why all the lies ?

Why don't you just update the site and wiki so it reflects **the truth** ? That would shut the mouths of all critics.

I mean WTF ? Is that really so damn difficult ?

[JoelKatz]

Why don't you just update the site and wiki so it reflects **the truth** ? That would shut the mouths of all critics.

It wouldn't shut the mouths of any critics, they'd just move on to some other argument that they don't actually believe.

[KSV]

nope, BTC for sure