Ripple or Bitcoin

[bitcoinbear]

All i have to say is Liberty Reserve...same fate for Ripple.

Completely different situation.

Opencoin operates in the US under US law.

Opencoin is in the US and under US law, thus it will be even easier for the US to shut them down than it was for LR. Look at how easy it is to open an anonymous ripple account: they don't even ask you for a name and email address.

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[misterbigg]

Bitcoin got this right and people who don't understand security are mindlessly trying to fix what is not broken.

Dan Kaminsky disagrees with you and so does Adam Back. The fear is that while an attack on Bitcoin might require ASICs, such an attack might actually succeed, especially if governments restrict access to mining ASICs, as they could. An attack requiring just a botnet or rented computing power might be easier to mount, but more difficult to bring to a successful conclusion. Then again, something based just on CPUs may be more vulnerable to what Erik Voorhees calls the original 51% attack: democracy. This could lead to some sort of taxation mechanism or taint detection being built into the protocol. Personally I believe we may need a mix of algorithms.

I would be interested in seeing a new thread started specifically related to the topic of the hash function in Bitcoin, including what was said here regarding SHA256 versus more CPU friendly algos (scrypt).

[Coinseeker]

All i have to say is Liberty Reserve...same fate for Ripple.

Completely different situation.

Opencoin operates in the US under US law.

Opencoin is in the US and under US law, thus it will be even easier for the US to shut them down than it was for LR. Look at how easy it is to open an anonymous ripple account: they don't even ask you for a name and email address.

As OpenCoin has stated, even if that would happen today before the source code was released, they would just at that moment, release it.  Wouldn't matter what happens to OpenCoin after that, as it relates to the Ripple network.

[SamS]

All i have to say is Liberty Reserve...same fate for Ripple.

Completely different situation.

Opencoin operates in the US under US law.

Opencoin is in the US and under US law, thus it will be even easier for the US to shut them down than it was for LR. Look at how easy it is to open an anonymous ripple account: they don't even ask you for a name and email address.

As OpenCoin has stated, even if that would happen today before the source code was released, they would just at that moment, release it.  Wouldn't matter what happens to OpenCoin after that, as it relates to the Ripple network.

I'm skeptical that that is true -- mostly because I think they might absorb some legal liability from knowingly releasing something the US government has told them not to. However, I'm not an attorney and don't know this for certain. Having said that, I wouldn't wish that kind of problem on anyone...

[Coinseeker]

I'm skeptical that that is true -- mostly because I think they might absorb some legal liability from knowingly releasing something the US government has told them not to. However, I'm not an attorney and don't know this for certain. Having said that, I wouldn't wish that kind of problem on anyone...

Nor I...I'm simply speaking from what has been said.  If I remember correctly, I believe it was stated that at least one of the developers has it in his contract to do so.  Again, they are not my words and I'd hope no such thing would be necessary.

[mmeijeri]

I would be interested in seeing a new thread started specifically related to the topic of the hash function in Bitcoin, including what was said here regarding SHA256 versus more CPU friendly algos (scrypt).

See this thread:

defending ahead the p2p nature of bitcoin - blending hashcash & scrypt

[MPOE-PR]

-It is open source, just not published, you can get rippled if you ask opencoin for access

And you're not retarded, you're just saving your good ideas for after your marriage. Right?

-does that really matter?

Yes, it does.

Ok what is it then? Closed source/proprietary is when there is a binary but no source code right?

You must think you're pretty clever or something (because stupid is when there's a binary but no source, right? And there's a source of you somewhere, not like the binary was just picked off static). Well done, Commander Fuckwit, you've proven InterLogic.

There are already a lot of individuals and corporations which not only have access and are running the Ripple server, but also have money issued in the form of IOUs or are holding XRP.

Bullshit. There is precisely nobody. Some people (people, not "corporations") are leeching the Bitcoin OpenScam is dumping on trying to buy popularity. That is all. A bunch of scammers, a bunch of shills, a bunch of bad ideas all covered in an abundant frosting of putrid

Lies, lies lies, lies. Goddamn lies everywhere.

[Atruk]

All i have to say is Liberty Reserve...same fate for Ripple.

Completely different situation.

Opencoin operates in the US under US law.

Opencoin is in the US and under US law, thus it will be even easier for the US to shut them down than it was for LR. Look at how easy it is to open an anonymous ripple account: they don't even ask you for a name and email address.

Pretty much this, especially since Ripple seems to be promoted for facilitating real money transactions. The debt/finance aspect probably opens up new legal vulnerabilities even Liberty Reserve didn't get into.

On the otherhand bitcoin is simply an online game where the developer neglected to build anything other than the currency.

[Mitzplik]

Wow man, MP is a pain in the ass. I have been watching this thread, she is a bitter love- lacking poor girl.
People bring arguments, she complains and cries like a pampered little girl.
I think this is to be really retard. People may be misinformed, but she is the boring retard one.

[Mitzplik]

Im out of this thread, what a pain in the ass!

[ElectricMucus]

-It is open source, just not published, you can get rippled if you ask opencoin for access

And you're not retarded, you're just saving your good ideas for after your marriage. Right?

-does that really matter?

Yes, it does.

Ok what is it then? Closed source/proprietary is when there is a binary but no source code right?

You must think you're pretty clever or something (because stupid is when there's a binary but no source, right? And there's a source of you somewhere, not like the binary was just picked off static). Well done, Commander Fuckwit, you've proven InterLogic.

I'm still trying to find some substance between your insults, so excuse me if I miss your point.
It's not open source according to your definition, since it is not publicly available. I get that.

But since the source is available in principle that wouldn't be that of an issue for anybody genuinely interested in the software or it's development.

For lack of a term lets call it: "conditionally shared source" ok?

[mmeijeri]

Pretty much this, especially since Ripple seems to be promoted for facilitating real money transactions. The debt/finance aspect probably opens up new legal vulnerabilities even Liberty Reserve didn't get into.

Once the code is released, OpenCoin no longer controls the Ripple network. You have an account with the network, not with OpenCoin, just as in Bitcoin. Shutting down OpenCoin will achieve nothing.

[CurbsideProphet]

All i have to say is Liberty Reserve...same fate for Ripple.

Completely different situation.

Opencoin operates in the US under US law.

Opencoin is in the US and under US law, thus it will be even easier for the US to shut them down than it was for LR. Look at how easy it is to open an anonymous ripple account: they don't even ask you for a name and email address.

Pretty much this, especially since Ripple seems to be promoted for facilitating real money transactions. The debt/finance aspect probably opens up new legal vulnerabilities even Liberty Reserve didn't get into.

On the otherhand bitcoin is simply an online game where the developer neglected to build anything other than the currency.

Ripple only handles IOU's and their own crypto-currency or whatever you want to call it, which is not subject to FinCEN.  There's no exchange of actual fiat, in order to do that, you need to go through a gateway so I think the onus would be on the gateway to follow KYC and AML procedures. 

[nameface]

There are already a lot of individuals and corporations which not only have access and are running the Ripple server, but also have money issued in the form of IOUs or are holding XRP.

Who?

Bullshit. There is precisely nobody. Some people (people, not "corporations") are leeching the Bitcoin OpenScam is dumping on trying to buy popularity. That is all. A bunch of scammers, a bunch of shills, a bunch of bad ideas all covered in an abundant frosting of putrid

I love it when someone heavily invested in Bitcoin calls Ripple "putrid". You probably don't realize the negative effect you're having on Bitcoin. This is a popular thread.
I remain unconvinced MPOE isn't independently shilling for Ripple because he believes Bitcoin will fail.


When I speak to newbs about Bitcoin:

Q: "Who's got all those 11M Bitcoins?"
A: "Some impolite guy in Eastern Europe running an underground asset market, BF members like Erik Voorhees and Roger Ver, an anonymous hacker(s) we're supposed to love because he/they wrote a good program, a few others."

Q: "Can I get some bitcoins?"
A: "You can buy them for ~$130."

Q: "What's the point of using Bitcoin?"
A: "You can send money all over the world pseudonymously, and it's a nifty store of value."

Average overall reaction: luke warm, unconvinced

About Ripple:

Q: "Who's got all those 100B Ripples?"
A: "OpenCoin Inc., But they're being given away gradually to massive amounts of people."

Q: "Can I get some?"
A: "You can buy ripples for ~$0.02, or easily get the amount you need to transact on the network for free for life by asking someone on a forum/chat."

Q: "What's the point of Ripple?"
A: "You will be able to send money all over the world, and the recipients will receive money in their preferred currency."

Average overall reaction: intrigue, they are convinced of real world utility


The above is true DESPITE the fact that Bitcoin works, and Ripple is in beta (alpha?). This line of dialogue matters. The systems of tomorrow will be the ones adopted BY THE MASSES. They don't know anything about hashing algorithms, and they simply don't care. Bitcoin has a PR problem.

Over time if Bitcoin doesn't sell itself and its features well, nobody new will buy into it. Quite frankly, in the eyes of the public it's just not as revolutionary we think it is. We have to avoid it simply being viewed as an unstable fringe currency for criminals. We must bridge the gap between techie/Libertarian/serious people and Joe Regular who uses ebay and paypal and maybe owns a bit of silver/gold as investment.

Ripple doesn't ask its users to "buy in" to XRP, it simply provides a math-based payment solution. It's Bitcoin that must watch its image as the "scam with a frosting of putrid".

[CurbsideProphet]

When I speak to newbs about Bitcoin:

Q: "Who's got all those 11M Bitcoins?"
A: "Some impolite guy in Eastern Europe running an underground asset market, BF members like Erik Voorhees and Roger Ver, an anonymous hacker(s) we're supposed to love because he/they wrote a good program, a few others."

Q: "Can I get some bitcoins?"
A: "You can buy them for ~$130."

Q: "What's the point of using Bitcoin?"
A: "You can send money all over the world pseudonymously, and it's a nifty store of value."

Average overall reaction: luke warm, unconvinced

About Ripple:

Q: "Who's got all those 100B Ripples?"
A: "OpenCoin Inc., But they're being given away gradually to massive amounts of people."

Q: "Can I get some?"
A: "You can buy ripples for ~$0.02, or easily get the amount you need to transact on the network for free for life by asking someone on a forum/chat."

Q: "What's the point of Ripple?"
A: "You will be able to send money all over the world, and the recipients will receive money in their preferred currency."

Average overall reaction: intrigue, they are convinced of real world utility


The above is true DESPITE the fact that Bitcoin works, and Ripple is in beta (alpha?). This line of dialogue matters. The systems of tomorrow will be the ones adopted BY THE MASSES. They don't know anything about hashing algorithms, and they simply don't care. Bitcoin has a PR problem.

I agree with you that Bitcoin needs to continue to be evolved to be more user friendly for the average user but I think we've come great lengths in that aspect over the last few years.  As for the dialogue, your responses are rather biased and spun in a way to purposefully turn off a person looking at Bitcoin and entice someone looking at Ripple.  It's not difficult to do.

Q: "Who's got all those 100B Ripples?"
A: "A single for-profit organization holds the majority share.  Their profitability model is based on the appreciation of XRP and also control the distribution of said XRP."

Q: "Can I get some?"
A: "Sure, first you sign up for Ripple, which you can't use because you need XRP.  Then you need to sign up for a gateway and go through their approval process.  Then you want to fund the gateway with fiat.  Then you transfer the fiat to Ripple and place a bid to purchase XRP..."

Q: "What's the point of Ripple?"
A: "To loan money to another person with no repayment terms, interest, or any other sort of traditional terms, including legal recourse, you would receive when extending credit.  If you accept this rather significant counter-party risk, you can move DEBT all over the world."

What would be the average reaction if you spun it this way?  

[nameface]

The average person would probably listen to you for a little while before turning away to go back about their business, holding no opinion one way or the other on Ripple, and having gained virtually no understanding.

[misterbigg]

Q: "What's the point of Ripple?"
A: "To loan money to another person with no repayment terms, interest, or any other sort of traditional terms, including legal recourse, you would receive when extending credit.  If you accept this rather significant counter-party risk, you can move DEBT all over the world."

This is totally wrong. Ripple is not a system for keeping track of loans. Ripple debts are not the same as mortgage / loan debt. This is a common misconception!

[mmeijeri]

This has been pointed out to our prophet more than once, but he never responds, yet he keeps repeating the charge. Maybe he thinks people won't notice.

[CurbsideProphet]

Q: "What's the point of Ripple?"
A: "To loan money to another person with no repayment terms, interest, or any other sort of traditional terms, including legal recourse, you would receive when extending credit.  If you accept this rather significant counter-party risk, you can move DEBT all over the world."

This is totally wrong. Ripple is not a system for keeping track of loans. Ripple debts are not the same as mortgage / loan debt. This is a common misconception!

It' just as accurate as this:

Q: "Who's got all those 11M Bitcoins?"
A: "Some impolite guy in Eastern Europe running an underground asset market, BF members like Erik Voorhees and Roger Ver, an anonymous hacker(s) we're supposed to love because he/they wrote a good program, a few others."

Which was my point.  He's purposely skewing his responses to show his own bias.

[CurbsideProphet]

This has been pointed out to our prophet more than once, but he never responds, yet he keeps repeating the charge. Maybe he thinks people won't notice.

Response to what?  I don't recall having a lengthy discussion with you so maybe you can point me to the thread you feel I'm avoiding. 

Nothing I said was erroneous.  Ripple facilitates IOU's between multiple parties.  IOU's = Debt.  There are zero repayment terms to these IOU's.  It doesn't matter if Ripple was built to track loans, Ripple is the facilitator of the loan.