Ripple or Bitcoin

[CurbsideProphet]

Incorrect. OpenCoin has complete control over the price by having complete control over the supply.

The market takes that into account. It's still a free market in the bigger picture. Opencoin can not control whether or not people purchase XRP. As of now the free market has assigned a value of around 50 XRP per usd.

When you unilaterally control supply, there is no free market.  If OpenCoin were to dump 30 billion XRP on the market tomorrow, do you think the value would still be 50 XRP/USD?  Obviously not.  Until the majority of the XRP is distributed, market demand is in the hands of OpenCoin.

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[misterbigg]

Until the majority of the XRP is distributed, market demand is in the hands of OpenCoin.

You mean market supply is in the hands of OpenCoin. Market demand is in the hands of...the market.

[Este Nuno]

Incorrect. OpenCoin has complete control over the price by having complete control over the supply.

The market takes that into account. It's still a free market in the bigger picture. Opencoin can not control whether or not people purchase XRP. As of now the free market has assigned a value of around 50 XRP per usd.

When you unilaterally control supply, there is no free market.  If OpenCoin were to dump 30 billion XRP on the market tomorrow, do you think the value would still be 50 XRP/USD?  Obviously not.  Until the majority of the XRP is distributed, market demand is in the hands of OpenCoin.

Opencoin is a company. Not a government. XRPs are their property. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

Anyone who purchases XRP knows exactly what the situation is. (I have not purchased any XRP fwiw)

[MPOE-PR]

OpenCoin Inc spent VC money to buy up XRPs on the open markets to get a bigger market cap so they can attract more VC funding. They can't release too much or the price will fall back to the real values (without their own buying).

That's an interesting accusation. Do you have any evidence of this?

What evidence would you need?

Is the "if you can't beat'em, join'em" approach of the Ripple network with regard to financial institutions and the law a necessary step for the future of cryptocurrency?

This is not the approach of Ripple. The approach of Ripple is pump-and-dump. Stop trying to muddy it, not gonna fly. There's no relation between Ripple on one hand and finance, financial institutions, innovation, Bitcoin, the future, cryptocurrencies etc.

If I'm shilling, then I'm shilling for the technological advancement of the human race, and the enrichment of the entire cryptocurrency community.

Right, because if you were shilling for fiddy bucks you'd be saying "If I'm shilling, it's for fiddy bux". Totally, I can see it.

[CurbsideProphet]

Incorrect. OpenCoin has complete control over the price by having complete control over the supply.

The market takes that into account. It's still a free market in the bigger picture. Opencoin can not control whether or not people purchase XRP. As of now the free market has assigned a value of around 50 XRP per usd.

When you unilaterally control supply, there is no free market.  If OpenCoin were to dump 30 billion XRP on the market tomorrow, do you think the value would still be 50 XRP/USD?  Obviously not.  Until the majority of the XRP is distributed, market demand is in the hands of OpenCoin.

Opencoin is a company. Not a government. XRPs are their property. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

Anyone who purchases XRP knows exactly what the situation is. (I have not purchased any XRP fwiw)

That goes without saying but it isn't a free market.  You're confusing freedom with free market, they are not the same.

A free market is a market structure in which the distribution and costs of goods and services, along with the structure and hierarchy between capital and consumer goods, are coordinated by supply and demand unhindered by external regulation or control by government or monopolies.

OpenCoin has a monopoly on XRP.  Yes, it is their property and they have every right to control it.  However, that by definition means it is not a free market, it is a controlled market.

[Este Nuno]

OpenCoin Inc spent VC money to buy up XRPs on the open markets to get a bigger market cap so they can attract more VC funding. They can't release too much or the price will fall back to the real values (without their own buying).

That's an interesting accusation. Do you have any evidence of this?

What evidence would you need?

Even if they did do that, no one is forcing anyone to buy XRP.

I don't understand why ripple gets everyone panties in a bunch. Bitcoin is not going anywhere. Ripple is not a "scam". It might be a bad idea, or just a failure in general. But it's certainly not a scam. And anyone who goes around posting in giant red text that it's a scam just looks ignorant and immature. (Not directing this at you MPOE in particular, although normally I would expect you to articulate why ripple is worse than Hitler as opposed just throwing around ad hominems)

[Este Nuno]

OpenCoin has a monopoly on XRP.  Yes, it is their property and they have every right to control it.  However, that by definition means it is not a free market, it is a controlled market.

To me this isn't inherently good or bad. Maybe they'll screw all up. But it seems like they've been doing well for themselves thus far. So I can respect that at least.

[freedomno1]

Just means someone needs to remake the protocol where no foundation holds half the XRP
Been pondering how to apply a ripple design but redo it without it being bitcoin

[misterbigg]

Just means someone needs to remake the protocol where no foundation holds half the XRP Been pondering how to apply a ripple design but redo it without it being bitcoin

It's pretty easy, just allow submitters of proof-of-work to create XRP, and adjust the difficulty so that the number of solved proofs per ledger is below a threshold.

Proof of work could go like this:

1) Put the hash of the previous ledger into a SHA256 hashing context
2) Put a nonce into the hashing context
3) Hash the result.
4) If it is greater than the target difficulty, increment the nonce and go to 1

If you don't find a solution before the next ledger close then you start over with the closed ledger's hash.

Now if you do find a solution then you submit it to the network as a special transaction. Very likely, a few other people will also find solutions. To break the tie, the consensus process could pick the solution with the lowest value.

If the difficulty is too low then there will be many solutions per ledger. To prevent proof of work from flooding the network, the algorithm for adjusting the difficulty would increase the difficulty until the number of valid submitted proofs per ledger was below some number, say 200.

At some point you want XRP to stop being created so after some ledger number, say the one hundred millionth ledger, no more proof of work can produce XRP.

I'm no expert at cryptosystems so this rough outline will probably need refinement.

[freedomno1]

Just means someone needs to remake the protocol where no foundation holds half the XRP Been pondering how to apply a ripple design but redo it without it being bitcoin

It's pretty easy, just allow submitters of proof-of-work to create XRP, and adjust the difficulty so that the number of solved proofs per ledger is below a threshold.

Proof of work could go like this:

1) Put the hash of the previous ledger into a SHA256 hashing context
2) Put a nonce into the hashing context
3) Hash the result.
4) If it is greater than the target difficulty, increment the nonce and go to 1

If you don't find a solution before the next ledger close then you start over with the closed ledger's hash.

Now if you do find a solution then you submit it to the network as a special transaction. Very likely, a few other people will also find solutions. To break the tie, the consensus process could pick the solution with the lowest value.

If the difficulty is too low then there will be many solutions per ledger. To prevent proof of work from flooding the network, the algorithm for adjusting the difficulty would increase the difficulty until the number of valid submitted proofs per ledger was below some number, say 200.

At some point you want XRP to stop being created so after some ledger number, say the one hundred millionth ledger, no more proof of work can produce XRP.

I'm no expert at cryptosystems so this rough outline will probably need refinement.

Sounds about right I was thinking more on the application and advertising side but with a different remake of the ripple protocol using it's strengths but also trying to focus on the weak-points.

Something like a Proof of Concept

Decentralized Stock Exchange
A web of interconnected exchanges based on trust
Central Exchange Servers and multiple markets connecting worldwide
24/H Over the Counter Trading
Instant connection to all world markets
Trading person to person through a trustnet
Using a similar Ripple design

While bitcoin emphasizes currency creation
I see ripple through a central server being applied towards stock exchanges
By diversifying servers and having assets trusted through multiple exchanges
It may be able to evolve the very core idea of stock exchanges.

[ElectricMucus]

OpenCoin Inc spent VC money to buy up XRPs on the open markets to get a bigger market cap so they can attract more VC funding. They can't release too much or the price will fall back to the real values (without their own buying).

That's an interesting accusation. Do you have any evidence of this?

What evidence would you need?

Any actual evidence will be fine.

oh and LOL

(don't mind me laughing)

[Mitzplik]

Ripple has good features. XRP will depend on how its managed.

XRP will compete with bitcoin, wich is descentralized and opensource. OpenCoin is limited in the management of XRP in a way it doesnt turns into a bad choice when compared to bitcoin. Otherwise, people would use XRP just to pay for transactions made in fiat money via gateways, and use bitcoin as a digital currency via bitcoin client, bitpay and whatever will still come.

People here angry about OpenCoin and the ripple network can keep using bitcoin, what is the problem?
I bet they are not doing an "anti-ripple" campaign to save theis similars from being scammed, this would be too generous. People are worried about something else. Maybe the losses a successful ripple network could cause them? They have bitcoin based business? Or jealousy? Or, "they gonna be rich, its not fair, Im the one who deserve it", etc, or they are just buying lots of XRP and fearing people to keep buying cheap.

Bitcoin will always be there. But now it has a possible competitor.

[misterbigg]

XRP will compete with bitcoin, wich is descentralized and opensource. OpenCoin is limited in the management of XRP in a way it doesnt turns into a bad choice when compared to bitcoin. Otherwise, people would use XRP just to pay for transactions made in fiat money via gateways, and use bitcoin as a digital currency via bitcoin client, bitpay and whatever will still come.

I disagree. The market for Bitcoin versus Ripple comprises different groups. Most Bitcoiners want to hold a bitcoin balance, and pay for everything in bitcoin.

Compare this with Ripple, where you want to make a payment to someone. You deposit fiat into a gateway, send the payment, and the recipient receives it in fiat from another gateway. Two different use-cases.

[Mitzplik]

XRP will compete with bitcoin, wich is descentralized and opensource. OpenCoin is limited in the management of XRP in a way it doesnt turns into a bad choice when compared to bitcoin. Otherwise, people would use XRP just to pay for transactions made in fiat money via gateways, and use bitcoin as a digital currency via bitcoin client, bitpay and whatever will still come.

I disagree. The market for Bitcoin versus Ripple comprises different groups. Most Bitcoiners want to hold a bitcoin balance, and pay for everything in bitcoin.

Compare this with Ripple, where you want to make a payment to someone. You deposit fiat into a gateway, send the payment, and the recipient receives it in fiat from another gateway. Two different use-cases.

I think we agree. I was comparing XRPs an BTC, you are comparing the ripple network with BTC.

Thats what I was trying to differentiate. The ripple network is what you explained above, but if you can pay what you pay with BTC with XRP, then XRP will be a competitor for BTC.

[misterbigg]

if you can pay what you pay with BTC with XRP, then XRP will be a competitor for BTC.

Who the hell wants to hold a large XRP balance or receive payments in XRP when Ripple is closed source, there's no research showing it's consensus model is robust and secure, and when OpenCoin holds ~98% of all the currency? Even if Ripple was all open source this very moment, Bitcoin still has almost 5 years of teenaged Russian hackers beating on the block chain and peer to peer network, and Ripple has none. Plus all the academic research. And Ripple's security model depends on having a sizable number of validators who we can be reasonably assured do not collude. There simply aren't enough validators for that right now, nor do we have scientific evidence that there are sufficient incentives for such validators to appear (unlike bitcoin miners, validators are uncompensated).

For the forseeable future XRP is no competitor.

These folks running around claiming XRP is a scam designed to "destroy bitcoin" are misguided fools.

[Mitzplik]

Agree that XRP still requires a lot of enhancements and real world tests to become a true competitor but, assuming that it resists to this, and is largely distributed, it will be an option.

And also, who can say how concentrated is bitcoin today? How is it distributed?

With OpenCoin, at least you have a known face to beat, and if they screw XRP quotes or trustworthiness, they will screw their own equity.

[mmeijeri]

These folks running around claiming XRP is a scam designed to "destroy bitcoin" are misguided fools.

Actually they are running around claiming something else entirely, namely that XRP will crash. But what you're saying must be what they are really afraid of. In which case they aren't just fools, but liars too.

[Mitzplik]

this night some people sold 40k BTC in mtgox and the price fell to 120. Like 8% in hours. This is not a steadiness standard. BTC is very volatile when people do this, suggesting its not very well distributed.

[nameface]

With OpenCoin, at least you have a known face to beat, and if they screw XRP quotes or trustworthiness, they will screw their own equity.

If OpenCoin messes around then a different iteration of Ripple could take off. There's an interesting balance of factors here.

These folks running around claiming XRP is a scam designed to "destroy bitcoin" are misguided fools.

+1

These folks running around claiming XRP is a scam designed to "destroy bitcoin" are misguided fools.

Actually they are running around claiming something else entirely, namely that XRP will crash. But what you're saying must be what they are really afraid of. In which case they aren't just fools, but liars too.

I've seen both ideas expressed by Ripple detractors on this forum.

[evoorhees]

this night some people sold 40k BTC in mtgox and the price fell to 120. Like 8% in hours. This is not a steadiness standard. BTC is very volatile when people do this, suggesting its not very well distributed.

Sigh.

Bitcoin's volatility has decreased on average over time, yet people keep focusing on the fact that "it is not yet extremely stable." Well, stability comes with time. A $5m dump on the market a year ago would've dropped it like 70%. Today it drops it 10%. Next year it'll drop it 2%.

And Bitcoin has also become "more distributed" over time as well. Far more people have Bitcoin today than a year ago. And the portion of BTC holders who have greater than X BTC will always be declining. Similarly, exchange volume is growing increasingly decentralized over time. Two years ago, Gox held 80% of the market. A year ago, more like 70%. Today, it's maybe 50-60%.

If various arguments about the centralization of Bitcoin bother you, then you're in luck, because it's a self-correcting process which has been improving since the genesis block.