Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[oda.krell]

It helps to think of it as a tragedy of the commons: absent of a blocksize it will eventually become in the miner's best interest to include as many transactions as possible in their blocks and consequently restricting access to governance of the network by way of bloating the blockchain.

'Yes' on the tragedy of the commons comparison at first, but 'no' if you think it through a bit more...

Only the biggest pools matter anyway, both in a vote and a self-enforced scenario I describe. Let's call them A, B, C. A vote to hard enforce scarcity will only succeed if A, B, C individually want scarcity anyway, so I'm allowed to make that assumption for my scenario as well.

Now, your objection (ToC) is valid in principle, that it is indeed in each of A, B, C's personal interest to include as much as possible contrary to the larger scarcity goal, but I point out that in this particular scenario, self governing is less likely to fail because (a) cooperation needs to be established only among a small group of actors (i.e. pool operators) that directly control the majority behavior, and are able to directly communicate with each other (as opposed to a large, amorphous population that usually underlies ToC type scenarios), and (b) because defection is publicly visible.

If, say, the two or three largest pools really want scarcity, they could try to cooperate, set a limit, and self-enforce it. (yes, free market lovers, that's a form of collusion). Blocksize is public, so cheating is possible but visible. If cooperation of the relevant majority fails (which I consider unlikely, as per the argument above), it makes sense to talk about voting processes and hard coded limits, but not before it has been established that this type of cooperation cannot be handled by individual actors.*


* Yes, that last one is an axiom of sorts, not an empirical claim. Something like, "don't solve with laws what possibly, in most cases, can be solved by individual rationality". I'd suspect most 'coiners are not entirely alien to the idea though.


(EDIT) Perhaps I should add that I am not going against some hard max value in principle. We have one now, we should keep one (only higher). What I'm trying to argue for is that miners only need this value for its originally intended purpose, to enforce a reasonable upper limit for technical reasons, i.e. as a measure against spam attacks. I reject however the notion that the economical aspect of that value needs to be included in the current debate, as any actual value below below the technical max has a good chance to emerge as a cooperation effort if there were an interest by the big miners to do so, as I argue above.

[1714258913]

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[1714258913]

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[macsga]

Strange, I saw quite a few articles about great Bitcoin adoption in Brazil. Not that that is anything great, it would be better if another country was named, instead of that shithole that's going down the drain.

Brazil currently has many big problems, but fortunately bitcoin still does not seem to be one of them.  Perhaps Brazilians are indeed smarter than the folks in your bithole.

Hmm. I think it's wise to leave this here:

According to a new report from the Jubilee Debt Campaign, there are currently 24 countries in the world that are facing a full-blown debt crisis…

■ Armenia
■ Belize
■ Costa Rica
■ Croatia
■ Cyprus
■ Dominican Republic
■ El Salvador
■ The Gambia
■ Greece
■ Grenada
■ Ireland
■ Jamaica
■ Lebanon
■ Macedonia
■ Marshall Islands
■ Montenegro
■ Portugal
■ Spain
■ Sri Lanka
■ St Vincent and the Grenadines
■ Tunisia
■ Ukraine
■ Sudan
■ Zimbabwe

And there are another 14 nations that are right on the verge of one…

■ Bhutan
■ Cape Verde
■ Dominica
■ Ethiopia
■ Ghana
■ Laos
■ Mauritania
■ Mongolia
■ Mozambique
■ Samoa
■ Sao Tome e Principe
■ Senegal
■ Tanzania
■ Uganda

So what should be done about this?

Source: http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-bankruptcy-of-the-planet-accelerates-24-nations-are-currently-facing-a-debt-crisis

Trying to solve unsolvable problems by re-implementing old recipes only has one outcome: Repetitive Failure.. I don't claim that BTC is perfect; but it's an alternative to the current monetary system turmoil, where the few 1% who are "bold enough" to claim (sometimes by force) more than what's theirs are becoming the rich ones, while the other 99% are just merely trying to push the day forward.

BTC doesn't have to be a worldwide implementation. It only has to be incorporated within a small infrastructure, big enough for someone to be able to do some real world comparison to the current system. Killer app for Bitcoin is yet to come; some say it's the government. Some others claim it's something we do not know yet; but given the possibility to rule out the biggest flaw of the current monetary system (the human greed) and replace it with random matrix equations, fits for me.

If you're smart enough to cheat, try finding the Jacobian.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

It helps to think of it as a tragedy of the commons: absent of a blocksize it will eventually become in the miner's best interest to include as many transactions as possible in their blocks and consequently restricting access to governance of the network by way of bloating the blockchain.

'Yes' on the tragedy of the commons comparison at first, but 'no' if you think it through a bit more...

Only the biggest pools matter anyway, both in a vote and a self-enforced scenario I describe. Let's call them A, B, C. A vote to hard enforce scarcity will only succeed if A, B, C individually want scarcity anyway, so I'm allowed to make that assumption for my scenario as well.

Now, your objection (ToC) is valid in principle, that it is indeed in each of A, B, C's personal interest to include as much as possible contrary to the larger scarcity goal, but I point out that in this particular scenario, self governing is less likely to fail because (a) cooperation needs to be established only among a small group of actors (i.e. pool operators) that directly control the majority behavior, and are able to directly communicate with each other (as opposed to a large, amorphous population that usually underlies ToC type scenarios), and (b) because defection is publicly visible.

If, say, the two or three largest pools really want scarcity, they could try to cooperate, set a limit, and self-enforce it. (yes, free market lovers, that's a form of collusion). Blocksize is public, so cheating is possible but visible. If cooperation of the relevant majority fails (which I consider unlikely, as per the argument above), it makes sense to talk about voting processes and hard coded limits, but not before it has been established that this type of cooperation cannot be handled by individual actors.*


* Yes, that last one is an axiom of sorts, not an empirical claim. Something like, "don't solve with laws what possibly, in most cases, can be solved by individual rationality". I'd suspect most 'coiners are not entirely alien to the idea though.

What a great post. Lucid and precise. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[Fatman3001]

who will bother to open an account with coinbase to buy bitcoins so they can buy stuff while paying a high fee ?? whats the point.. pay high fees.. instead use a debit card doesnt cost end user nothing to use a debit card and its easy.. no reason to use bitcoin that has multiples of issues that we all are aware of .. and if you are a gun owner and support the second amendment then you need to oppose the implementation of the "blockchain blacklists" code. i happen to be one of the "dwayne" brothers and i think your "blockchain blacklists" is a real cute trick. obviously there is only once choice.. cripple bitcoin with low bandwidth, slow payments with high fees ...... RIP XT or bitcoin make your choice.

about to get smacked down by the bear troll fud (i gotta get me one these cameras!) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIhCNbdIFT4

Indeed. What is the point of buying bitcoins to buy stuff? That is the question maybe you should ask yourself.

Did you consider maybe you did not have the right idea about what Bitcoin's real utility is?

Bitcoin's utility is using it to buy stuff online. And it is close to being to the point where you can drop your bank.

It is merely a currency, you switch to whatever currency is best for the situation. I live in Germany but work for the military so I have access to the military base. Everything on the military base requires dollars, everything else requires euros. I am used to going back and forth between currencies. I don't "buy dollars" and watch the value fluctuate. I convert some euros to dollars and get enough for things I might need for that week. I convert bitcoins to euros with enough currency to pay for things in the near future. My reserve currency is bitcoins because it is easier to store and travel with bitcoins than with cash and that is what I am paid in. I don't worry too much about the value fluctuation other than spending more when the price goes up a lot and holding off when the price drops.

Mind=Blown

You work for the military?

Isn't that the closest thing to living in a communist system in the west?

A miniature planned command economy?

Mind=Ultra Blown

[ChartBuddy]

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[ChartBuddy]

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[ChartBuddy]

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[Elwar]

who will bother to open an account with coinbase to buy bitcoins so they can buy stuff while paying a high fee ?? whats the point.. pay high fees.. instead use a debit card doesnt cost end user nothing to use a debit card and its easy.. no reason to use bitcoin that has multiples of issues that we all are aware of .. and if you are a gun owner and support the second amendment then you need to oppose the implementation of the "blockchain blacklists" code. i happen to be one of the "dwayne" brothers and i think your "blockchain blacklists" is a real cute trick. obviously there is only once choice.. cripple bitcoin with low bandwidth, slow payments with high fees ...... RIP XT or bitcoin make your choice.

about to get smacked down by the bear troll fud (i gotta get me one these cameras!) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIhCNbdIFT4

Indeed. What is the point of buying bitcoins to buy stuff? That is the question maybe you should ask yourself.

Did you consider maybe you did not have the right idea about what Bitcoin's real utility is?

Bitcoin's utility is using it to buy stuff online. And it is close to being to the point where you can drop your bank.

It is merely a currency, you switch to whatever currency is best for the situation. I live in Germany but work for the military so I have access to the military base. Everything on the military base requires dollars, everything else requires euros. I am used to going back and forth between currencies. I don't "buy dollars" and watch the value fluctuate. I convert some euros to dollars and get enough for things I might need for that week. I convert bitcoins to euros with enough currency to pay for things in the near future. My reserve currency is bitcoins because it is easier to store and travel with bitcoins than with cash and that is what I am paid in. I don't worry too much about the value fluctuation other than spending more when the price goes up a lot and holding off when the price drops.

Mind=Blown

You work for the military?

Isn't that the closest thing to living in a communist system in the west?

A miniature planned command economy?

Mind=Ultra Blown

I work for the military (contractor). I'm not in the military.

It would be like working for communist government elites who need shit to actually work because they can't get stuff working within their system, you get the money and can get the benefits of their system (cheaper/free food/gas) but being able to live in the private sector enjoying the free market.

Still have to work with the incompetence of the communist system though.

[Fatman3001]

who will bother to open an account with coinbase to buy bitcoins so they can buy stuff while paying a high fee ?? whats the point.. pay high fees.. instead use a debit card doesnt cost end user nothing to use a debit card and its easy.. no reason to use bitcoin that has multiples of issues that we all are aware of .. and if you are a gun owner and support the second amendment then you need to oppose the implementation of the "blockchain blacklists" code. i happen to be one of the "dwayne" brothers and i think your "blockchain blacklists" is a real cute trick. obviously there is only once choice.. cripple bitcoin with low bandwidth, slow payments with high fees ...... RIP XT or bitcoin make your choice.

about to get smacked down by the bear troll fud (i gotta get me one these cameras!) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIhCNbdIFT4

Indeed. What is the point of buying bitcoins to buy stuff? That is the question maybe you should ask yourself.

Did you consider maybe you did not have the right idea about what Bitcoin's real utility is?

Bitcoin's utility is using it to buy stuff online. And it is close to being to the point where you can drop your bank.

It is merely a currency, you switch to whatever currency is best for the situation. I live in Germany but work for the military so I have access to the military base. Everything on the military base requires dollars, everything else requires euros. I am used to going back and forth between currencies. I don't "buy dollars" and watch the value fluctuate. I convert some euros to dollars and get enough for things I might need for that week. I convert bitcoins to euros with enough currency to pay for things in the near future. My reserve currency is bitcoins because it is easier to store and travel with bitcoins than with cash and that is what I am paid in. I don't worry too much about the value fluctuation other than spending more when the price goes up a lot and holding off when the price drops.

Mind=Blown

You work for the military?

Isn't that the closest thing to living in a communist system in the west?

A miniature planned command economy?

Mind=Ultra Blown

I work for the military (contractor). I'm not in the military.

It would be like working for communist government elites who need shit to actually work because they can't get stuff working within their system, you get the money and can get the benefits of their system (cheaper/free food/gas) but being able to live in the private sector enjoying the free market.

Still have to work with the incompetence of the communist system though.

I understand you quite a bit better now. I've worked up against the military myself (not in, not for, but renting out property) and I would think it would be the epitome of everything you're against. If you want to go bark-raving-mad, try negotiating with the military. It's mind bending stupidity on an epic scale.

[gentlemand]

I understand you quite a bit better now. I've worked up against the military myself (not in, not for, but renting out property) and I would think it would be the epitome of everything you're against. If you want to go bark-raving-mad, try negotiating with the military. It's mind bending stupidity on an epic scale.

I've seen how the British armed forces operates up close and it's a wonder they can dress themselves, let alone fight anyone.

I used to rent military land for events. Once upon a time we arrived at our site and a bunch of Marines ran up to us in a panic and told us to stay away  as they were testing some type of secret grenade launcher in their APC.

They said they'd be gone in half an hour when the truck arrived. Three days later we were joyriding in their APC and going down the local garage to feed them. No one had booked the truck and every time they called for extraction all knowledge of them was denied.

[Fatman3001]

I understand you quite a bit better now. I've worked up against the military myself (not in, not for, but renting out property) and I would think it would be the epitome of everything you're against. If you want to go bark-raving-mad, try negotiating with the military. It's mind bending stupidity on an epic scale.

I've seen how the British armed forces operates up close and it's a wonder they can dress themselves, let alone fight anyone.

I used to rent military land for events. Once upon a time we arrived at our site and a bunch of Marines ran up to us in a panic and told us to stay away  as they were testing some type of secret grenade launcher in their APC.

They said they'd be gone in half an hour when the truck arrived. Three days later we were joyriding in their APC and going down the local garage to feed them. No one had booked the truck and every time they called for extraction all knowledge of them was denied.

A local farmer I met had rented out part of his land for non-lethal weapons excercises (Basically laser tag). Part of the agreement was that he should have access to the forrest at set dates in order to extract timber. When he went to extract the timber he was told that his whole forrest was riddled with undetonated explosives. Including parts he had not rented out to the military.

Now, he was compensated ten-fold, but...

[ChartBuddy]

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[cyclotronmajesty]

5 days of flatlining. Except maybe that brief push 2 days ago.



Guess that's all for the weekend... no bullish trend change. If things don't change soon i'll close my long and take my losses.

 

[Fakhoury]

============================================

[findftp]

5 days of flatlining. Except maybe that brief push 2 days ago.



Guess that's all for the weekend... no bullish trend change. If things don't change soon i'll close my long and take my losses.

 

Reading this and observing the doji hammer on the weekly scale I'd say we're pretty close to capitulation in 10 hours

[gentlemand]

Paywalled. Here's the article.

[ChartBuddy]

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[Fatman3001]

Paywalled. Here's the article.

Oh yeah!

[JorgeStolfi]

Derek White, chief design and digital officer at Barclays, said: "Barclays is enabling the bitcoin exchange to help charities accept bitcoin."

What exchange is that?  Bitstamp?  Kraken?

[ChartBuddy]

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