Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Fatman3001]

... so you felt the need to go ad hominem on him?

No, but I'm feeling the potential need to go ad hominem on you!

You make some good points in many of your posts but I find your constant "scale or die" rhetoric to be a simplistic dumbing down of what is a relatively complex debate (you're displaying similar lines of 'intelligence' to President Bush's "You're either with us or against us" and "the axis of evil" chest beating after 911 and we all know how poorly much of that turned out).

In retrospect i am willing to admit that this was probably a much more serious slur in my eyes than in Billy Joe Banjo's, but I took offense on his behalf.

I mostly enjoy reading your and BJA's posts but some of the ways you're expressing yourselves are not helpful.

We're not here to be helpful, we're just talking shit.

When are people going to wake up and realise that all this infighting and characterisation of people within bitcoin as "pussies" and "spineless people" is the internal bickering that just makes serious money on the outside of crypto look in (for 5 seconds tops) and shake their heads at the immaturity and self-defeating culture.

If they take their cues from the WO-thread they're idiots, besides, BJA's original rant was a relatively level-headed and reasonable one. And he's a Louisiana ethanol producer. I would be more worried about the public discourse among the devs.

With regards to "pussies" and "spineless people". I think it's fair to call out people who doesn't contribute but decides to go on a crusade against those who care enough to have an opinion.

Honestly, we need unity and leadership to present a unified face. This stuff you're going on with is disastrous. Who exactly doesn't want Bitcoin to scale? Who? I honestly don't know who these people are. Of course there are a multitude of discussions around new developments like sidechains and the Lightning Network which may change some aspects of how the blockchain is used and what direction it takes, but I don't see any of these people arguing for a Bitcoin that doesn't scale.

This is just more of the "you're either with us or against us" black and white rhetoric I highlighted above.

It's absolutely not helpful to the cause.

You can't disparage the ""you're either with us or against us" black and white rhetoric" at the same time as you ask for leadership. This whole case is about leadership, and how it is failing while people on the fence are waiting for some kind of consensus that will not be reached in time. Shooting with a sawed-off in WO-thread debates is healthy.

There are some not-so-healthy contributions, but the WO-thread can handle it. We have fucking lambie here! Try explaining lambie to your "serious money".

Who exactly doesn't want Bitcoin to scale?

A bunch. I can't be bothered to re-read the thread, but if you've followed the discussion you'd seen there has been several. Do they matter? Who knows?

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[billyjoeallen]

It's bizzarre to me that anyone can claim that Bitcoin's PRIMARY utility is as a store of value. A store of value does not lose over 80% of it's market cap in less than 2 years.

Bitcoin needs to scale in order to survive. The people who sell bitcoin don't seem to think so. The people who buy Bitcoin absolutely do. Ever heard the saying "the customer is always right?"

I think eventually it will be seen as a store of value. Your "A store of value does not lose over 80% of it's market cap in less than 2 years" statement is taking a selective window of Bitcoin's total lifespan and highlighting its devaluation from the ATH. A similar selective view could be applied to many 'store of value' assets that went through booms and busts in their early days.

Of course it needs to scale and I don't think anyone is arguing it doesn't. You make some good points in many of your posts but I find your constant "scale or die" rhetoric to be a simplistic dumbing down of what is a relatively complex debate (you're displaying similar lines of 'intelligence' to President Bush's "You're either with us or against us" and "the axis of evil" chest beating after 911 and we all know how poorly much of that turned out).

Rather than just painting anyone that doesn't think XT has the right combination of attributes and backing as someone that's against Bitcoin moving forward, perhaps you could bring a little more clarity around the issues at hand to the discussion and dispense with such black and white judgement.

I have repeatedly said that I am not pushing specifically for XT. IF the choice is between XT and not scaling at all, then I am for it.  It frustrates me no end that those seem to be the only two options we are presented with.  Bitcoin needs to scale on an automatic timeline independent of certain people who want to choke the network and squeeze out more fees.

Without the practical ability to do microtransactions, Bitcoin's utility value is substantially lower than otherwise. BIP100 replacing a static 1MB block size limit with a dynamic 1MB block size limit is a joke, particularly when people with an incentive to bottleneck the network effectively have veto power over any increase! 

Cripplecoiners can't all be this stupid. There is some straight up evil at work here. I think of that line in Dark Knight when Alfred says "Some people just want to see the world burn."

[RenegadeMan]

Okay thanks for your replies Fatman and BJA. Good responses. Even if I don't agree with your individual takes on the situation there's always more to the story than appears at face value.

I'm coming to the conclusion that to save us we need a combo of





and

[JayJuanGee]

You are ridiculous and coming off as a bit trollish or at least disingenuous.

You make a whole bunch of unsubstantiated generalizations regarding Bitcoin in general and it's possible future market performance, in part seeming to be based on your bad investment luck and what appears to be considerable deficiencies in your outlook and expectations

How else do you measure an investment? Would you invest more money into something that has cost you money? Maybe i'm simple minded. But if it's supposed to make you money, and instead it burns all of it up. Maybe just maybe it's not a good investment.

But I've been waiting for this thing since the idea of paypal came out. I didn't really know of it until 2014.
The idea of replacing the banks entirely appeals to me. That is the reason I like it. Trading isn't necessary if you want to use bitcoin. But then again the world prefers credit cards and that requires an institution all over again, taking a fee on every time you spend your money.

You can measure an investment through a variety of perspectives and indicators, and in the end each of us has to choose for himself/herself regarding what to measure and whether we recognize value in making an investment, in part based on whether we perceive potential benefits outweighing potential risks.


Merely because you have lost money in a particular investment over the past about 18 months does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the asset itself is bad or that it will continue from here on to go down in market price. Also, markwt price is also not necessarily a measure of value, except for at that particular point in time reflecting how much that people are willing to pay for it.

Yes, you do come off as either simple minded or else someone who is trolling.

Surely, there are a lot of potential use cases for Bitcoin, and your attempt to summarize them while making broad comparisons and contrasts barely scratches the surface of various ways in which Bitcoin can be used and currently some of such uses have been implemented (while evolving) and other uses will quite likely be further developed in the future.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[aztecminer]

It's bizzarre to me that anyone can claim that Bitcoin's PRIMARY utility is as a store of value. A store of value does not lose over 80% of it's market cap in less than 2 years.

Bitcoin needs to scale in order to survive. The people who sell bitcoin don't seem to think so. The people who buy Bitcoin absolutely do. Ever heard the saying "the customer is always right?"

I think eventually it will be seen as a store of value. Your "A store of value does not lose over 80% of it's market cap in less than 2 years" statement is taking a selective window of Bitcoin's total lifespan and highlighting its devaluation from the ATH. A similar selective view could be applied to many 'store of value' assets that went through booms and busts in their early days.

Of course it needs to scale and I don't think anyone is arguing it doesn't. You make some good points in many of your posts but I find your constant "scale or die" rhetoric to be a simplistic dumbing down of what is a relatively complex debate (you're displaying similar lines of 'intelligence' to President Bush's "You're either with us or against us" and "the axis of evil" chest beating after 911 and we all know how poorly much of that turned out).

Rather than just painting anyone that doesn't think XT has the right combination of attributes and backing as someone that's against Bitcoin moving forward, perhaps you could bring a little more clarity around the issues at hand to the discussion and dispense with such black and white judgement.

I have repeatedly said that I am not pushing specifically for XT. IF the choice is between XT and not scaling at all, then I am for it.  It frustrates me no end that those seem to be the only two options we are presented with.  Bitcoin needs to scale on an automatic timeline independent of certain people who want to choke the network and squeeze out more fees.

Without the practical ability to do microtransactions, Bitcoin's utility value is substantially lower than otherwise. BIP100 replacing a static 1MB block size limit with a dynamic 1MB block size limit is a joke, particularly when people with an incentive to bottleneck the network effectively have veto power over any increase! 

Cripplecoiners can't all be this stupid. There is some straight up evil at work here. I think of that line in Dark Knight when Alfred says "Some people just want to see the world burn."

there really are people that dumb.. a bunch them are out there.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[oxiyusuf]

bitcoin movement now began to slow down, perhaps waiting for a new issue.
just hope the price of bitcoin soon rise, and I can sell it at that moment 

[troleybüs]

bitcoin movement now began to slow down, perhaps waiting for a new issue.
just hope the price of bitcoin soon rise, and I can sell it at that moment 

What would you do after selling your Bitcoin? That's not a wise decision at all.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[aztecminer]

bitcoin movement now began to slow down, perhaps waiting for a new issue.
just hope the price of bitcoin soon rise, and I can sell it at that moment 

we are on our way up... one margin long at a time! just a few more longs and that moment will arrive and you can finally sell your "blockchain blacklist" "cripplecoin"! #victory

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[billyjoeallen]

bitcoin movement now began to slow down, perhaps waiting for a new issue.
just hope the price of bitcoin soon rise, and I can sell it at that moment 

we are on our way up... one margin long at a time! just a few more longs and that moment will arrive and you can finally sell your "blockchain blacklist" "cripplecoin"! #victory

the ~$1 million direct investment that is required daily for BTC to have price stability doesn't yet seem to be affected by the block size controversy. But I am noticing some subtle things at the margins that may be an indicator of another leg down:

1. My orders on purse.io are not getting filled.
2. My offers on bitquick.co are not being accepted

Retail is not buying in. I don't know if the ~15,000 in margin shorts on bfx is going to be enough to stop another crash. Conversely, squeezing them won't cause much of a spike either. If miners are holding off selling all their coins in hopes of getting a higher price, then we may have a lot of overhead resistance in addition to the $23M in dollar swaps (margin longs). 

Big money may come to the rescue, but it may not. My guess is still that we're going sideways until the people who dumped at $260 run out of money to reinvest and then, unless some new development changes things, we'll retest support.

I'm really neutral in which way I want the market to go. I'm still over 90% long, but I want the cripplecoiners to get the message that coins on a throttled network are not as valuable.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[brg444]

I'm really neutral in which way I want the market to go. I'm still over 90% long, but I want the cripplecoiners to get the message that coins on a throttled network are not as valuable.

Retail is not buying in.

Why are you so excited about scaling transactions for retail demand that doesn't exist?

[cyclotronmajesty]

You are ridiculous and coming off as a bit trollish or at least disingenuous.

You make a whole bunch of unsubstantiated generalizations regarding Bitcoin in general and it's possible future market performance, in part seeming to be based on your bad investment luck and what appears to be considerable deficiencies in your outlook and expectations

How else do you measure an investment? Would you invest more money into something that has cost you money? Maybe i'm simple minded. But if it's supposed to make you money, and instead it burns all of it up. Maybe just maybe it's not a good investment.

But I've been waiting for this thing since the idea of paypal came out. I didn't really know of it until 2014.
The idea of replacing the banks entirely appeals to me. That is the reason I like it. Trading isn't necessary if you want to use bitcoin. But then again the world prefers credit cards and that requires an institution all over again, taking a fee on every time you spend your money.

You can measure an investment through a variety of perspectives and indicators, and in the end each of us has to choose for himself/herself regarding what to measure and whether we recognize value in making an investment, in part based on whether we perceive potential benefits outweighing potential risks.


Merely because you have lost money in a particular investment over the past about 18 months does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the asset itself is bad or that it will continue from here on to go down in market price. Also, markwt price is also not necessarily a measure of value, except for at that particular point in time reflecting how much that people are willing to pay for it.

Yes, you do come off as either simple minded or else someone who is trolling.

Surely, there are a lot of potential use cases for Bitcoin, and your attempt to summarize them while making broad comparisons and contrasts barely scratches the surface of various ways in which Bitcoin can be used and currently some of such uses have been implemented (while evolving) and other uses will quite likely be further developed in the future.

Hm... I simply have no need for a investment that is loosing me money. In that case it's a bad investment.  But can't help but miss the productive use of time or forum space in your reply on this topic. Name calling, and egotistical aggression simply escapes me as a valuable commodity.

I think the notion is pretty simple, have you been making money? Then it's good. Have you been loosing money. Then stop investing in it. You wanna overcomplicate things beyond that... and call me names, I can't help but pity you.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

You are ridiculous and coming off as a bit trollish or at least disingenuous.

You make a whole bunch of unsubstantiated generalizations regarding Bitcoin in general and it's possible future market performance, in part seeming to be based on your bad investment luck and what appears to be considerable deficiencies in your outlook and expectations

How else do you measure an investment? Would you invest more money into something that has cost you money? Maybe i'm simple minded. But if it's supposed to make you money, and instead it burns all of it up. Maybe just maybe it's not a good investment.

But I've been waiting for this thing since the idea of paypal came out. I didn't really know of it until 2014.
The idea of replacing the banks entirely appeals to me. That is the reason I like it. Trading isn't necessary if you want to use bitcoin. But then again the world prefers credit cards and that requires an institution all over again, taking a fee on every time you spend your money.

You can measure an investment through a variety of perspectives and indicators, and in the end each of us has to choose for himself/herself regarding what to measure and whether we recognize value in making an investment, in part based on whether we perceive potential benefits outweighing potential risks.


Merely because you have lost money in a particular investment over the past about 18 months does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the asset itself is bad or that it will continue from here on to go down in market price. Also, markwt price is also not necessarily a measure of value, except for at that particular point in time reflecting how much that people are willing to pay for it.

Yes, you do come off as either simple minded or else someone who is trolling.

Surely, there are a lot of potential use cases for Bitcoin, and your attempt to summarize them while making broad comparisons and contrasts barely scratches the surface of various ways in which Bitcoin can be used and currently some of such uses have been implemented (while evolving) and other uses will quite likely be further developed in the future.

Hm... I simply have no need for a investment that is loosing me money. In that case it's a bad investment.  But can't help but miss the productive use of time or forum space in your reply on this topic. Name calling, and egotistical aggression simply escapes me as a valuable commodity.

I think the notion is pretty simple, have you been making money? Then it's good. Have you been loosing money. Then stop investing in it. You wanna overcomplicate things beyond that... and call me names, I can't help but pity you.

You seem much too sensitive, if you are understanding my prior response posts to be a name calling rants. 

In my earlier posts, I seem to be for the large part responding substantively to various points that you were making, and characterizing them as inadequate in a variety of respects, and to agree with you that your thinking seems to be much too simplistic if you believe that the main factors in determining direction of a market is its most recent price direction (even though sometimes you are going to be correct when you guess in that regard nonetheless, that analysis seems to miss a lot of nuances and a variety of factors that I referred to in my previous responses to you).

[billyjoeallen]

I'm really neutral in which way I want the market to go. I'm still over 90% long, but I want the cripplecoiners to get the message that coins on a throttled network are not as valuable.

Retail is not buying in.

Why are you so excited about scaling transactions for retail demand that doesn't exist?

If you wanna get people interested in coin collecting, you don't start them out with Krugerrands.  You start them out with wheat pennies.  Then, I want anti-spam email, faucets to drive traffic to websites, etc.