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Question: When $60K? (EST time zone)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 25179746 times)
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February 20, 2019, 02:13:34 AM

^ Every growing investment is indistinguishable from a Ponzi.
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JayJuanGee
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February 20, 2019, 02:16:26 AM

Probably because ETH is moving from a POW (proof of work) to a PoS (proof of stake) consensus algorithm with a minimum of 32 ETH required to stake, and a lot of people are buying it at these low prices so that they can start staking soon

This has been said for forever, still nothing. I doubt anything will change.

LOL.
POW is where workers rule.
POS is where rent seekers rule.
You can never create sustainable economy where rent seekers rule!
Ethereum was created as a coin of the people that don't understand monetary theory by the people that don't understand monetary theory for the people that don't understand monetary theory!


I agree, however, I worry that current rent seekers (which are dominant in the current economy) will simply transplant themselves onto POS, thereby strengthening it.


So?  How long will it take for their ponzi to play out?  They can keep it going for 20 to 50 years, yet half of the battle is recognizing the POS as a propped up ponzi scheme that is not much different from fiat... On an individual level maybe you hedge some of your value into that situation, but if you recognize the true value as POW, and you largely invest in POW, then likely you are going to experience value appreciation in your POW investment.  The snake oil salesmen are not likely going to make it easy for you to distinguish the real value from the snake oil, right?

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February 20, 2019, 02:21:30 AM
Last edit: February 20, 2019, 02:38:10 AM by Hueristic

ETH has another hardfork scheduled in the coming days?

from what I understand (I don't follow this shitcoin) first I think was supposed to be Casper and that failed then Constantinople(?) and that turns out to have a unresolveable logic error that got it pulled at the last minute so (P)iece (O)f (S)Hit ETH is still just Piece of shit (L)ite right now.
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February 20, 2019, 02:31:20 AM



 Why doesn't anyone seem know that the B is supposed to have a 13.8888888888888... degree tilt to it?! I mean if you're going to promote something you should know something about it shouldn't you? That sticker is tilting in the wrong direction and could possibly represent beecash.  This sort of thing saddens me.


 
I do not think that people who do not know what bitcoin will remember the angle of its slope. But they will remember the symbol for sure.

 That's exactly what Roger Ver is banking on.  He has co-opted Bitcoin, owns the Bitcoin.com domain uses the bitcoin symbol same colour but different angle... even has a Badger wallet for beecash.  Honey Badger dont give a fuck but I dont like it.


Forget the whole angle thing.  Roger Ver does not own a particular angle.  It is all bullshit.  But if Roger Ver was not making this particular attack, then someone else would be. 


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February 20, 2019, 02:34:33 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1), jbreher (1)

POS gets shook out real fast once stakers realize the value of their stake is falling faster than the value of the income. Stakers start progressively dumping their stakes at market.   It then becomes a self sustaining whirlpool of doom

POS is an excellent way to get WTF pwned during the next bear cycle.  
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February 20, 2019, 02:56:56 AM

POS gets shook out real fast once stakers realize the value of their stake is falling faster than the value of the income. Stakers start progressively dumping their stakes at market.   It then becomes a self sustaining whirlpool of doom

POS is an excellent way to get WTF pwned during the next bear cycle.  

Yep...

Good luck (not) to any of those peeps (including some WO participant peeps) investing into POS phony baloney.
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February 20, 2019, 02:58:45 AM
Last edit: February 20, 2019, 03:23:00 AM by Biodom

Probably because ETH is moving from a POW (proof of work) to a PoS (proof of stake) consensus algorithm with a minimum of 32 ETH required to stake, and a lot of people are buying it at these low prices so that they can start staking soon

This has been said for forever, still nothing. I doubt anything will change.

LOL.
POW is where workers rule.
POS is where rent seekers rule.
You can never create sustainable economy where rent seekers rule!
Ethereum was created as a coin of the people that don't understand monetary theory by the people that don't understand monetary theory for the people that don't understand monetary theory!


I agree, however, I worry that current rent seekers (which are dominant in the current economy) will simply transplant themselves onto POS, thereby strengthening it.


On an individual level maybe you hedge some of your value into that situation, but if you recognize the true value as POW, and you largely invest in POW, then likely you are going to experience value appreciation in your POW investment.  The snake oil salesmen are not likely going to make it easy for you to distinguish the real value from the snake oil, right?



hey, do you mine btc or did you ever mine or run a node?
if yes, then kudos, and if not, then you are riding someone else's train here, I am sorry to say.
In order to support btc network (POW) by mining you have to have roughly one S9 (13.5 TH/s) per each 5 BTC that you might have (at this very moment).

Anything else, and you are contributing less than your claim on the network, therefore some third party have more power (you relinquished that power to them). Contribution via node is less clear, but could be calculated as a derivative of the total node number.

If you simply buy and hodl, sorry, you have a claim on something you don't really control in any way.

POS gets shook out real fast once stakers realize the value of their stake is falling faster than the value of the income. Stakers start progressively dumping their stakes at market.   It then becomes a self sustaining whirlpool of doom

POS is an excellent way to get WTF pwned during the next bear cycle.  

True, personally, i see POW as superior, albeit some were also extending ideas about POW collapse if btc prices would get too low as difficulty adjustment happens only roughly 13 days or so.
I see POS as psychologically attractive to financiers because they understand the concept of a "stake" very well.
However, all software or policies implementations of POS so far were mostly flawed.
The problem of ETH is that they think like a central bank and keep jerking the network params one way or another. The problem of EOS is centralization.
Both are no good long term, which is good for POW, but i am not sure that "perfect" (one and done, without jerking the network) POS is theoretically impossible, but maybe it is.
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February 20, 2019, 03:21:24 AM

Probably because ETH is moving from a POW (proof of work) to a PoS (proof of stake) consensus algorithm with a minimum of 32 ETH required to stake, and a lot of people are buying it at these low prices so that they can start staking soon

This has been said for forever, still nothing. I doubt anything will change.

LOL.
POW is where workers rule.
POS is where rent seekers rule.
You can never create sustainable economy where rent seekers rule!
Ethereum was created as a coin of the people that don't understand monetary theory by the people that don't understand monetary theory for the people that don't understand monetary theory!


I agree, however, I worry that current rent seekers (which are dominant in the current economy) will simply transplant themselves onto POS, thereby strengthening it.


On an individual level maybe you hedge some of your value into that situation, but if you recognize the true value as POW, and you largely invest in POW, then likely you are going to experience value appreciation in your POW investment.  The snake oil salesmen are not likely going to make it easy for you to distinguish the real value from the snake oil, right?

hey, do you mine btc or did you ever mine or run a node?
if yes, then kudos, and if not, then you are riding someone else's train here, I am sorry to say.

Get the fuck out of here with that statement of mining elitism.



In order to support btc network (POW) by mining you have to have roughly one S9 (13.5 TH/s) per each 5 BTC that you might have (at this very moment).

There is no "have to," but instead there could be levels of increased security and increased involvement and ways of BTC ownership (or BTC network ownership).

Anything else, and you are contributing less than your claim on the network, therefore some third party have more power (you relinquished that power to them). Contribution via node is less clear, but could be calculated as a derivative of the total node number.

Yes, there are various ways in which people can be involved various ways in which they can contribute (or distract) from the bitcoin space and the bitcoin concept.


If you simply buy and hodl, sorry, you have a claim on something you don't really control in any way.

O.k.  Fair enough that owning and controlling are different things, yet your seeming attempt to create a heirarchy of bitcoin citizenship, perhaps under your own parameters, seems a bit weird, lame and out of touch with the modern world in which systems (including bitcoin) have consensus, compromise and choice rather than requiring every person to have a required set of skills and contributions.  If true, that would be ridiculous.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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February 20, 2019, 03:36:30 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)

cannot quote ^^^it properly.
It's not mining elitism, it is how it works since Satoshi made it public.
If you think that owning btc makes you or anyone else a contributor, no it does not (in a POW system), but it does in a POS system where you mine using your stake.
IN POW system miners and node-owners control the system.
Simply owning btc is OK, but you are effectively cut off out of all decision making that might affect your btc.
This is just a statement of fact, nothing personal.
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February 20, 2019, 03:38:26 AM
Merited by Paashaas (1), JayJuanGee (1)

cannot quote ^^^it properly.
It's not mining elitism, it is how it works since Satoshi made it public.
If you think that owning btc makes you or anyone else a contributor, no it does not (in a POW system), but it does in a POS system where you mine using your stake.
IN POW system miners and node-owners control the system.
Simply owning btc is OK, but you are effectively cut off out of all decision making that might affect your btc.
This is just a statement of fact, nothing personal.


You are taking a technology centric view and ignoring economic soft power.  UASF proved the strength of economic hodlers.  Don't get fooled by Bcash propaganda that miners vote.  They can just fork off and take their hashpower elsewhere and good luck to them.  We will sell their shitty fork coins and buy more BTC.

Meanwhile Bitmain is sitting on a pile of Bcash that no one wants. 
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February 20, 2019, 03:43:50 AM
Last edit: February 20, 2019, 03:59:15 AM by Biodom
Merited by vapourminer (1), Paashaas (1), ssmc2 (1)

cannot quote ^^^it properly.
It's not mining elitism, it is how it works since Satoshi made it public.
If you think that owning btc makes you or anyone else a contributor, no it does not (in a POW system), but it does in a POS system where you mine using your stake.
IN POW system miners and node-owners control the system.
Simply owning btc is OK, but you are effectively cut off out of all decision making that might affect your btc.
This is just a statement of fact, nothing personal.


You are taking a technology centric view and ignoring economic soft power.  UASF proved the strength of economic hodlers.  Don't get fooled by Bcash propaganda that miners vote.  They can just fork off and take their hashpower elsewhere and good luck to them.

UASF proved the power of users with nodes, NOT the hodlers. Hodlers were totally out of the loop and were not in the decision making.
In fact, economic powers such as coinbase and barry silbert's fund were not able to do anything because nodes said (indirectly) that they will go with the core and it was not economical for miners to go and do a split.
They would have been losing many millions a day. It is a bit funny that you are indirectly arguing for POS (power to hodlers) while saying that POW is better. No paradox here?

"UASF stands for User Activated Soft Fork.
It’s a mechanism where the activation time of a soft fork occurs on a specified date enforced by full nodes; a concept sometimes referred to as the economic majority."
https://cointelegraph.com/explained/uasf-vs-uahf-explained

"The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. Nodes work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. Nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone. They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism." by Satoshi N.
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February 20, 2019, 03:53:22 AM

cannot quote ^^^it properly.
It's not mining elitism, it is how it works since Satoshi made it public.
If you think that owning btc makes you or anyone else a contributor,

You seem to be changing the topic.

Was I talking about myself?

In my earlier post, I was attempting to describe why there is both erroneous logic and likely a lack of understanding if anyone is attempting to suggest that POW is the same or some variation of POS.   To the extent that I may have made other points, was not part of the thrust of what I was saying in that post.

You came back with some kind of assertion of what seems to be hierarchies of bitcoin citizenship.


no it does not (in a POW system), but it does in a POS system where you mine using your stake.

Who gives a shit about POS?  Go pump some shit coin or contribute to some other project. Part of my point is that any attempts to suggest that POS systems are bringing some kind of similar innovative dynamic to the crypto space, such as bitcoin does are either ill-informed or erroneous.

By the way, anyone investing into bitcoin does not have to actually participate in the security of the POW bitcoin system in order to get the benefits of the various contributions of others, including the contributions of miners.  Accordingly, a lot of folks can profit to fuck all without putting one cent towards mining.  Whether that is a free-rider problem or not, there seems to be decent free market dynamics that allow various kinds of speculation and profit from bitcoin... even if not directly profiting or contributing to actual mining.    Lovely that... and there are a lot of us who have made a lot of money already, just by buying, accumulating and hodling bitcoin... and we can equally get our dicks sucked with hookers, blow and lambos.   Wink




IN POW system miners and node-owners control the system.

Good job... great.

Simply owning btc is OK,

I am glad that you approve of such activity.  I actually suggest people buy some bitcoin and take a stake in bitcoin by buying it.  I do not suggest that people start mining. Of course, if they want to start mining or own  a node then great... I am glad that they are contributing to bitcoin in such a concrete (and optional) way.


but you are effectively cut off out of all decision making that might affect your btc.
This is just a statement of fact, nothing personal.

Could be true, and partaking in decision making regarding the governance details of bitcoin may or may not be important for all folks.  There may be some folks who merely prefer to spend their lives engaged in other activities, whether that is hookers, blow and lambos or other some other personally satisfying / rewarding activities.
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February 20, 2019, 03:59:25 AM

text

Sorry, I don't have any idea what you are talking about (basically a mix of insults with gibberish).


Fine if you do not understand english, and if you patronize by characterize what I say as gibberish, then you are likely the one who is being insulting by cursorily dismissing views in a topic that you brought up and asserting that you don't understand basic concepts in english.

Let me try to make one of my points in another way.  What I am saying is that a person, such as me, is still able to benefit from bitcoin's POW without being a miner nor a node operator, just like a person who needs brain surgery would be able to potentially benefit from the fact that brain surgery as a practice exists, even if that person is neither a brain surgeon nor works in a hospital.
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February 20, 2019, 04:00:29 AM

The fact that we are hovering near $4000 while many people are still waiting to buy at $3000-$3300, $2800, $2500, $2000 and even lower is... Fine.

Of course it doesn't mean we can't have another lower bottom.

Just saying... but I don't know what I say. Mind you.
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February 20, 2019, 04:01:03 AM


Well BTC finally approaching the price of my 13 BTC panic dumping like a 9-year-old girl (insert screaming and such here) a month or two back?

I 'panic' dumped/sold at $3,965 usd.

Now it is at $3,934.06 for BTC at this moment.

Well, sold some equipment so got it down now to only about 9 BTC down from the 13 BTC down since the 'episode'

20/20 hindsight was still the right thing to do. Hard to type that even if true for real-world reasons.

By mentioning that it is NOT quite there yet, my BTC sold at $3,965 price... I likely jinxed it. My Bad, in advance.

Anyone else get some of their BTC back in the 'doldrums' of BTC prices below 4k? that sold below 4k? But recovered some back on wish/prayer?

Anyway, 9 BTC down (or 4 back at less than my above sale 13 BTC panic sale) is better than I expected during my 'loss of faith" on the 13 BTC dump.

knock wood

later

brad
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February 20, 2019, 04:03:26 AM


Well BTC finally approaching the price of my 13 BTC panic dumping like a 9-year-old girl (insert screaming and such here) a month or two back?

I 'panic' dumped/sold at $3,965 usd.

Now it is at $3,934.06 for BTC at this moment.

Well, sold some equipment so got it down now to only about 9 BTC down from the 13 BTC down since the 'episode'

20/20 hindsight was still the right thing to do. Hard to type that even if true for real-world reasons.

By mentioning that it is NOT quite there yet, my BTC sold at $3,965 price... I likely jinxed it. My Bad, in advance.

Anyone else get some of their BTC back in the 'doldrums' of BTC prices below 4k? that sold below 4k? But recovered some back on wish/prayer?

Anyway, 9 BTC down (or 4 back at less than my above sale 13 BTC panic sale) is better than I expected during my 'loss of faith" on the 13 BTC dump.

knock wood

later

brad


Considering your stash and your needs at the time. You did the right thing no matter what. Don't overthink it.
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February 20, 2019, 04:04:34 AM

The fact that we are hovering near $4000 while many people are still waiting to buy at $3000-$3300, $2800, $2500, $2000 and even lower is... Fine.

Of course it doesn't mean we can't have another lower bottom.

Just saying... but I don't know what I say. Mind you.

I am witnessing slow and in-progress un-capitulating... whoaza!!!!!!....   Shocked Shocked
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February 20, 2019, 04:06:07 AM

The fact that we are hovering near $4000 while many people are still waiting to buy at $3000-$3300, $2800, $2500, $2000 and even lower is... Fine.

Of course it doesn't mean we can't have another lower bottom.

Just saying... but I don't know what I say. Mind you.

I am witnessing slow and in-progress un-capitulating... whoaza!!!!!!....   Shocked Shocked

No, didn't you read we can have a lower bottom?

I will remain capitulated until further notice.
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February 20, 2019, 04:08:53 AM

The fact that we are hovering near $4000 while many people are still waiting to buy at $3000-$3300, $2800, $2500, $2000 and even lower is... Fine.

Of course it doesn't mean we can't have another lower bottom.

Just saying... but I don't know what I say. Mind you.

I am witnessing slow and in-progress un-capitulating... whoaza!!!!!!....   Shocked Shocked

No, didn't you read we can have a lower bottom?

I will remain capitulated until further notice.

I know. I know.

Rome was not built in a day, just like "uncapitulating" is not going to.   Wink 

Welcome back to the beginning of the end of your capitulation.  Tongue
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February 20, 2019, 04:11:12 AM

The fact that we are hovering near $4000 while many people are still waiting to buy at $3000-$3300, $2800, $2500, $2000 and even lower is... Fine.

Of course it doesn't mean we can't have another lower bottom.

Just saying... but I don't know what I say. Mind you.

I am witnessing slow and in-progress un-capitulating... whoaza!!!!!!....   Shocked Shocked

No, didn't you read we can have a lower bottom?

I will remain capitulated until further notice.

I know. I know.

Rome was not built in a day, just like "uncapitulating" is not going to.   Wink  

Welcome back to the beginning of the end of your capitulation.  Tongue

When I start sending new deposits like a mad monkey, that will be the signal of my end of capitulation.

P.S.: Yes, I won't catch the bottom. I never do.
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