KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[klintay]

blah! whatever you think, it is a question of integrity!!!

They were suppose to be delivering the Mars units in a month. I would have expected hundreds of parts/units to be manufactured by now if that really was the case. Instead we have had no word of the sudden change in policy until they open their books for orders?!? dodge house!

[1714320866]

1714320866

[1714320866]

1714320866

[dan99]

blah! whatever you think, it is a question of integrity!!!

They were suppose to be delivering the Mars units in a month. I would have expected hundreds of parts/units to be manufactured by now if that really was the case. Instead we have had no word of the sudden change in policy until they open their books for orders?!? dodge house!

To them is not logical to waste 1mil and demand for Asic is better so is a business decision..

[bitpop]

Why would you people waste money on an fpga and waste their time, focus on asic

[sydeu]

How do i sign up to visit on wednesday?

[Bitcoinorama]

How do i sign up to visit on wednesday?

Message Sam, his email addy is on the sig of his recent posts here.

Then let everyone know the I've of you appt. I think there is one Thurs morn and afternoon as well.

600watt, JohnyJ, Daggeteo and Defxor, possibly johand are going, so feel free to hit them up with a pm...

[retro72]

blah! whatever you think, it is a question of integrity!!!

They were suppose to be delivering the Mars units in a month. I would have expected hundreds of parts/units to be manufactured by now if that really was the case. Instead we have had no word of the sudden change in policy until they open their books for orders?!? dodge house!

This^

I'm sure the same people defending them now will be spinning the same tired defence when they decide they can't make a 28nm chip."Yeah I thought a 28nm chip was a stupid idea. I'm glad they're not making it. Now we'll get our asics quicker"

Or the deadline gets pushed back from September. " I think moving the deadline a few months is ok, I never thought they could make it in the first place"

[johnyj]

My checklist:

1. Make sure their FPGA miner works towards a pool (start and stop the miner and see if pool's statistics change)

I'm still curious why cgminer works with their device without involvement of ckolivas/kano/luke-jr, if they are able to independantly make a device that talks to cgminer, that will prove their ability

2. Get as much info about their ASIC implementation as possible, include:
Chip design, wafer contract, assembly facility location and capacity

[KS]

blah! whatever you think, it is a question of integrity!!!

They were suppose to be delivering the Mars units in a month. I would have expected hundreds of parts/units to be manufactured by now if that really was the case. Instead we have had no word of the sudden change in policy until they open their books for orders?!? dodge house!

This^

I'm sure the same people defending them now will be spinning the same tired defence when they decide they can't make a 28nm chip."Yeah I thought a 28nm chip was a stupid idea. I'm glad they're not making it. Now we'll get our asics quicker"

Or the deadline gets pushed back from September. " I think moving the deadline a few months is ok, I never thought they could make it in the first place"

+1

typical fanboi reaction

[Bitcoinorama]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

[Bitcoinorama]

My checklist:

1. Make sure their FPGA miner works towards a pool (start and stop the miner and see if pool's statistics change)

I'm still curious why cgminer works with their device without involvement of ckolivas/kano/luke-jr, if they are able to independantly make a device that talks to cgminer, that will prove their ability

2. Get as much info about their ASIC implementation as possible, include:
Chip design, wafer contract, assembly facility location and capacity

3. Determine confidence and why it exists w.r.t. delivering 28nm tech by September.

4. Pack a screwdriver...

[retro72]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

I LOLed hard at this. Social awkwardness....
By the way that wasn't a monitor it was a laptop. If you can't tell the difference.........

[Bitcoinorama]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

I LOLed hard at this. Social awkwardness....
By the way that wasn't a monitor it was a laptop. If you can't tell the difference.........

Whatever, you get what I meant... I was writing from memory of the vid!

Also Retro72, as I had a forum member PM me about Ccard payment, in response to your info shared, on point and valid of course with respect to section 75. It was from your comments the other day and looking into it more I called Paypal and Barclaycard and spoke at length with them for an hour yesterday.

W.r.t. your follow up post, I disagree in that they are entirely responsible for any misinformation their fraud team has provided me(*if they have), it's precisely why recorded them. I rang them before sale and they okay'd me to go ahead. I was passed between several people before they could hand me to someone who they assured me could clarify, this wasn't the standard customer service rep, this was someone in their fraud/buyer protection team speaking on behalf of their company, influencing my decision by assuring I'm fully covered and they will assume liability.

[jimmy3dita]

Regarding the Mars/FPGA miner, I followed the Blackarrow history from the beginning (I've also bought from them) and -right now- it seems almost impossible to buy Spartans "in hand". The only way is to buy from Altera itself and -given that Blackarrow is telling the truth- the delivery is 8 weeks from the payment.

Do your math

[retro72]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

I LOLed hard at this. Social awkwardness....
By the way that wasn't a monitor it was a laptop. If you can't tell the difference.........

Whatever, you get what I meant... I was writing from memory of the vid!

Also Retro72, as I had a forum member PM me about Ccard payment, in response to your info shared, on point and valid of course with respect to section 75. It was from your comments the other day and looking into it more I called Paypal and Barclaycard and spoke at length with them for an hour yesterday.

W.r.t. your follow up post, I disagree in that they are entirely responsible for any misinformation their fraud team has provided me(*if they have), it's precisely why recorded them. I rang them before sale and they okay'd me to go ahead. I was passed between several people before they could hand me to someone who they assured me could clarify, this wasn't the standard customer service rep, this was someone in their fraud/buyer protection team speaking on behalf of their company influencing my decision.

Fair enough. I hope it works out for you.

Just to clarify my position. I really hope this works out. I'd love to buy one. But the way this thing is going erodes my confidence. IMHO Its a low blow to open up payments now, before the open day, giving only a week to keep your place in the queue. By the time the second open day has come and gone you will have had to drop your cash or be  way down the list.

Even the most generous person would have to say the FPGA demo vid was a disappointment and pulling production of it, although technically a good thing shows a degree of incompetence this late in the game. They should have known nobody would want it, hell we told them we didn't. But if they'd at least banged out 20 of the things we could have some confidence in their ability to mass produce on time. This leaves us not much further than we were last week.

Personally I see a lot of reasons to be cautious. I run a business, I don't ask my clients to pay fully up front for work. I always take a deposit, then payments at milestones agreed upon at the start. This protects them and me. I had to fund my business myself, with money I had earned. I did not round up a bunch of people and get them to pay for work I might deliver at some point in the future.

Yes they need seed capitol. That's what investors are for. If they can't convince a bank or VC's or friends to invest, why should I?

Anyway, I could go on  but at the end of the day some people want to believe some don't. Its your money. I hope it works out. The last thing the community needs is another BFL.

[dan99]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

I LOLed hard at this. Social awkwardness....
By the way that wasn't a monitor it was a laptop. If you can't tell the difference.........

Whatever, you get what I meant... I was writing from memory of the vid!

Also Retro72, as I had a forum member PM me about Ccard payment, in response to your info shared, on point and valid of course with respect to section 75. It was from your comments the other day and looking into it more I called Paypal and Barclaycard and spoke at length with them for an hour yesterday.

W.r.t. your follow up post, I disagree in that they are entirely responsible for any misinformation their fraud team has provided me(*if they have), it's precisely why recorded them. I rang them before sale and they okay'd me to go ahead. I was passed between several people before they could hand me to someone who they assured me could clarify, this wasn't the standard customer service rep, this was someone in their fraud/buyer protection team speaking on behalf of their company influencing my decision.

Fair enough. I hope it works out for you.

Just to clarify my position. I really hope this works out. I'd love to buy one. But the way this thing is going erodes my confidence. IMHO Its a low blow to open up payments now, before the open day, giving only a week to keep your place in the queue. By the time the second open day has come and gone you will have had to drop your cash or be  way down the list.

Even the most generous person would have to say the FPGA demo vid was a disappointment and pulling production of it, although technically a good thing shows a degree of incompetence this late in the game. They should have known nobody would want it, hell we told them we didn't. But if they'd at least banged out 20 of the things we could have some confidence in their ability to mass produce on time. This leaves us not much further than we were last week.

Personally I see a lot of reasons to be cautious. I run a business, I don't ask my clients to pay fully up front for work. I always take a deposit, then payments at milestones agreed upon at the start. This protects them and me. I had to fund my business myself, with money I had earned. I did not round up a bunch of people and get them to pay for work I might deliver at some point in the future.

Yes they need seed capitol. That's what investors are for. If they can't convince a bank or VC's or friends to invest, why should I?

Anyway, I could go on  but at the end of the day some people want to believe some don't. Its your money. I hope it works out. The last thing the community needs is another BFL.

You have a very good point and I hope they take note of it ...

" I always take a deposit, then payments at milestones agreed upon at the start. This protects them and me. I had to fund my business myself, with money I had earned. I did not round up a bunch of people and get them to pay for work I might deliver at some point in the future. "

[Bitcoinorama]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

I LOLed hard at this. Social awkwardness....
By the way that wasn't a monitor it was a laptop. If you can't tell the difference.........

Whatever, you get what I meant... I was writing from memory of the vid!

Also Retro72, as I had a forum member PM me about Ccard payment, in response to your info shared, on point and valid of course with respect to section 75. It was from your comments the other day and looking into it more I called Paypal and Barclaycard and spoke at length with them for an hour yesterday.

W.r.t. your follow up post, I disagree in that they are entirely responsible for any misinformation their fraud team has provided me(*if they have), it's precisely why recorded them. I rang them before sale and they okay'd me to go ahead. I was passed between several people before they could hand me to someone who they assured me could clarify, this wasn't the standard customer service rep, this was someone in their fraud/buyer protection team speaking on behalf of their company influencing my decision.

Fair enough. I hope it works out for you.

Just to clarify my position. I really hope this works out. I'd love to buy one. But the way this thing is going erodes my confidence. IMHO Its a low blow to open up payments now, before the open day, giving only a week to keep your place in the queue. By the time the second open day has come and gone you will have had to drop your cash or be  way down the list.

Even the most generous person would have to say the FPGA demo vid was a disappointment and pulling production of it, although technically a good thing shows a degree of incompetence this late in the game. They should have known nobody would want it, hell we told them we didn't. But if they'd at least banged out 20 of the things we could have some confidence in their ability to mass produce on time. This leaves us not much further than we were last week.

Personally I see a lot of reasons to be cautious. I run a business, I don't ask my clients to pay fully up front for work. I always take a deposit, then payments at milestones agreed upon at the start. This protects them and me. I had to fund my business myself, with money I had earned. I did not round up a bunch of people and get them to pay for work I might deliver at some point in the future.

Yes they need seed capitol. That's what investors are for. If they can't convince a bank or VC's or friends to invest, why should I?

Anyway, I could go on  but at the end of the day some people want to believe some don't. Its your money. I hope it works out. The last thing the community needs is another BFL.

You have a very good point and I hope they take note of it ...

" I always take a deposit, then payments at milestones agreed upon at the start. This protects them and me. I had to fund my business myself, with money I had earned. I did not round up a bunch of people and get them to pay for work I might deliver at some point in the future. "

I'm in complete agreement with the above.

[FlappySocks]

What risk are ORSoC making? Non by the sounds of it.  Its a straight business relationship that any of us could make.  Hand them a load of cash, and they will develop the ASIC.

[Bitcoinorama]

What risk are ORSoC making? Non by the sounds of it.  Its a straight business relationship that any of us could make.  Hand them a load of cash, and they will develop the ASIC.

Well aside from their reputation as a business online being directly affiliated with this, and an associated a forum they reside over which has vastly more members than Bitcointalk.

They certainly won't be keen on pad press/PR related to something they have dedicated a decade of their lives to.

Why do you doubt them? They are involved doing what they have 10 years proven experience designing what they're best at.

Timescales should not be unfamiliar to them, neither should ASIC mask design.

To some extent you have to take their word, but it's a hell of a lot stronger than what we've seen offered so far!

[FlappySocks]

Have ORSoC made any public statements over this?
Why would ORSoC need money up front?

[markm]

What risk are ORSoC making? Non by the sounds of it.  Its a straight business relationship that any of us could make.  Hand them a load of cash, and they will develop the ASIC.

So maybe our risk is mostly that we won't send enough cash, so ORSoC won't actually get engaged to do the project?

-MarkM-