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Author Topic: KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June  (Read 78374 times)
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June 06, 2013, 08:13:06 PM
 #761

An other question should be asked I think.

If everything goes fine and they can start producing, what will be the capacity of mass production? 10 20 50 miners a day? This would be important for shipping time...

They're not doing it in house. Cash will be a limiting factor and minimum order qty for ASICs. Bull traps.

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June 06, 2013, 08:17:46 PM
 #762

An other question should be asked I think.

If everything goes fine and they can start producing, what will be the capacity of mass production? 10 20 50 miners a day? This would be important for shipping time...

PM the question! Wink
They basically said that production will not be a problem as the actual capacity of the Fab heavily out weighs the demand for the ASICs.
They plan to order enough chips to cover all the orders placed up to that point and a good margin more.
Then they will keep on ordering chips as needed.
//DeaDTerra
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June 06, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
 #763

An other question should be asked I think.

If everything goes fine and they can start producing, what will be the capacity of mass production? 10 20 50 miners a day? This would be important for shipping time...

PM the question! Wink
They basically said that production will not be a problem as the actual capacity of the Fab heavily out weighs the demand for the ASICs.
They plan to order enough chips to cover all the orders placed up to that point and a good margin more.
Then they will keep on ordering chips as needed.
//DeaDTerra


Ok I understand it's no problem. But I think thay can tell round numbers. What is problem and what is not? I think 5 a day is problem 50 is not. This means for 500 orders 100 or 10 days... What means a good capacity for them and for us?

PM for who?

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June 06, 2013, 08:39:34 PM
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...  Anyone have any idea who the chip provider is for kNC?

I gather they do the chips themselves

No, it is either TSMC or Global foundries. They are the two companies who have the capability to do this. KNCminer did not want to specify which one of those two that they are using for commercial reasons.

There are at least a half dozen companies with 28nm processes.  Further, Intel, IBM, and Fujitsu have even more mature 28nm processes than TSMC and Global Foundaries, for what its worth.


Personally, as someone whom has worked in/with the IC fab industry for years, I can say it is a bit ambitious to go straight from FPGA to production ASIC runs.   While FPGAs provide ASIC like functionality, the underpinnings and validation of designs are very different beasts.  Additionally, mask rework usually costs more than doing an MPW.   However, this means you have to wait for the next scheduled MPW run which usually means 3 month lead times.
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June 06, 2013, 08:50:14 PM
 #765

What about technology professionals from America? Professionals to be pretty sure that they will deliver in time as well.   Grin

An other question should be asked I think.

If everything goes fine and they can start producing, what will be the capacity of mass production? 10 20 50 miners a day? This would be important for shipping time...

I still hope that they are technology professionals from Nordic and not some chinese guys from basement.) So, If they decide for taking pre-orders, they are pretty sure that they will deliver in time (during September).
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June 06, 2013, 08:55:19 PM
 #766

I'm from Europe so I feel little bit safer when I ordering from another EU country.)

What about technology professionals from America? Professionals to be pretty sure that they will deliver in time as well.   Grin

An other question should be asked I think.

If everything goes fine and they can start producing, what will be the capacity of mass production? 10 20 50 miners a day? This would be important for shipping time...

I still hope that they are technology professionals from Nordic and not some chinese guys from basement.) So, If they decide for taking pre-orders, they are pretty sure that they will deliver in time (during September).
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June 06, 2013, 09:02:22 PM
 #767

I'm from Europe so I feel little bit safer when I ordering from another EU country.)


me too. here inside the EU we have more options to do something if something is going wrong. Outside of the EU it is like wild west for us.
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June 06, 2013, 09:03:19 PM
 #768

I'm from Europe so I feel little bit safer when I ordering from another EU country.)


me too. here inside the EU we have more posibilties to do someting if something is going wrong. Outside of the EU it is like wild west for us.

+1 exactly..
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June 06, 2013, 11:26:56 PM
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Look the beef with entrepreneurs not remortgaging their family property is ridiculous!

Quite frankly I'd advise anyone raising funds to avoid that approach as much as I advise peeps to use credit card to make payment.

I've been quite vocal and pressed for a Litecoin FPGA and credit card payment. KnC were flexible enough to consider that and the smarts to achieve it.

This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!

If you think any smart wealthy self-made men risk their family possessions to fund projects you are at best deluded, or at worst mad! They have accountants and lawyers that oversee every step of the way to ensure their ass(ets) are protected. Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family. The fact they are willing to donate their time for free is risk enough.

I do however feel there should be an investor competence/intelligence test prior to receiving funds, but that's an impossible task...

Dude.... I don't know whether you're naive, deluded or worse. I know plenty of "smart, wealthy, self made men". Every single one of them has put MORE than their house on the line to get where they are today. Some have lost EVERTHING only to make it all back. If you're not willing to put skin in the game. You shouldn't be playing.

"Donating their time for free is risk enough". Will you listen to yourself. The only reason they weren't salaried is they HAD NO MONEY!!! Do you think their time will be free now they have millions of your pre-order money?  I'm pretty sure Champagne has been cracked and loans are being paid off as we speak.

"Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family" More fool you. I wouldn't even think of investing in someone who has less to lose than I do. How much are you going to lose if this fails? How much are they? I'm guessing you'll lose more.

"This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!" Then the should have gone to kickstarter. It's telling that they didn't isn't it?

I'm done arguing with folks here. I've got no skin in the game so I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show. You carry on deluding yourself. I hope you didn't put too much on that credit card your putting all your hopes into. Debt can put your home at risk. You know that right?
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June 06, 2013, 11:43:00 PM
 #770

Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.

Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.

You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.

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June 06, 2013, 11:54:07 PM
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Remortgaging your house to invest that money in a business is absolutely reckless. But it's true that risking your own money is something that someone who runs a business does on a daily basis.

Let's be honest, this thing of being able to gather massive funds from customers, risking nothing of your own money while enjoying big potential gains is a wet dream come true for any business. But it's certainly not the vendors fault, it's the market who brings this opportunity on the table.

You can bet that as soon as there is an established and reliable provider, shipping ASIC immediately at reasonable prices, this preorder madness will come to an end. From that point, potential competitors will have to fund new products risking their own money, and not the customers money.

The market makes the 'reasonable prices'

ASICminer proved that.  You can get thier stuff off the shelf right now. They are not collecting dust. But many yell that they want first batch avalon prices with next day delivery.

This is a kings sport and the only way for a non-king is to jump early on the right longshot.  In April, that was to sign up with knc and now hope to get something in Sept.
Might work?  But ASICminer still moving the curve higher and higher and all the kings with their old money and cheap new coins can keep doubling down to price out the wannabes

Avalon DIY sounds good too but what of that scale?  Many batches have been sold and now wait on many planets to align.  It may get messy. I wonder if I will get my two klondike boards before my two saturns?

While in reality, I have a modminer and 4 usbees cooking up 2.2 Gh.  That is my REAL status in this sport of kings .. the rest are still dreams right?

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June 07, 2013, 12:06:04 AM
 #772

Main problem everybody is overseeing is scalability.

Again: huge project for small company.

They had problems with their Paypal account? OBVIOUS, that's a lot of payments flowing to an account that probably had very fewer (or none) in the past. And do you know what happens when you open a new bank account for a new company that suddenly receives millions of $ from payments coming from all over the world in just a few days? There are alarms that ring. Swedish tax authority *may* temporary freeze the account and ask for clarifications, or their bank can put some limits and temporary hold the funds/block incoming ones (as Paypal probably did) until everything is clarified, and that takes some time. This is just an example, there are many scalability problems you may encounter when you are a company that suddenly makes a project x20 bigger than the other projects you have done in the past. For example, has ever KnC or ORSoC developed and commercialized a consumer product with that kind of price-tag and manufacturing costs and delivered it to thousands to consumers all over the world in a record time? No, they didn't. And this, as we all know, is a project tightly linked to a crazy schedule - the question is not if they can design a Bitcoin ASIC, is not if they are scammers or not, the real question is how many chances there are that they can meet such a super-tight schedule and not be overwhelmed to what it's coming to them.

Heck. They even allowed people to sell pre-order IDs and offered to manage that... What they were thinking? I hope they stopped to do that, but IMO that's just an example of how they may be underestimating the scale involved in this project, and thus they may incur in delays.

As I said earlier: I invested in them. I do not want to spread FUD, I love the fact that there is a new competitor in the ASIC game, and I will very happy to support them and keep investing if this go well. But I'm just amazed to see how there is a lot of people so eager to justify their own investment (or blinded by greed) that they will just act as irrational fan-boys, losing all contact with reality.



This is the intelligence of knc AB, they found this opportunity and teamed up with ORSoC. If I had the same idea I could also find ORSoC and start this, but a sense of business opportunity showed their experience in enterprise level

I'm convinced when I saw ORSoC have their own FPGA developement suit (not just copied from the open source FPGA design), if they can develope the FPGA independantly, they already have all the required R&D competence in house. They said the bitcoin miner is very easy to design compared with their previous projects (radio network/robot)

And they promised to make their own miner and interface to be user friendly

After 7 days' paying period, they will send the payment directly to ASIC factory, the RTL design is already at the factory, now they are carefully review the design for any minor error


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June 07, 2013, 12:10:24 AM
 #773

Look the beef with entrepreneurs not remortgaging their family property is ridiculous!

Quite frankly I'd advise anyone raising funds to avoid that approach as much as I advise peeps to use credit card to make payment.

I've been quite vocal and pressed for a Litecoin FPGA and credit card payment. KnC were flexible enough to consider that and the smarts to achieve it.

This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!

If you think any smart wealthy self-made men risk their family possessions to fund projects you are at best deluded, or at worst mad! They have accountants and lawyers that oversee every step of the way to ensure their ass(ets) are protected. Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family. The fact they are willing to donate their time for free is risk enough.

I do however feel there should be an investor competence/intelligence test prior to receiving funds, but that's an impossible task...

Dude.... I don't know whether you're naive, deluded or worse. I know plenty of "smart, wealthy, self made men". Every single one of them has put MORE than their house on the line to get where they are today. Some have lost EVERTHING only to make it all back. If you're not willing to put skin in the game. You shouldn't be playing.

"Donating their time for free is risk enough". Will you listen to yourself. The only reason they weren't salaried is they HAD NO MONEY!!! Do you think their time will be free now they have millions of your pre-order money?  I'm pretty sure Champagne has been cracked and loans are being paid off as we speak.

"Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family" More fool you. I wouldn't even think of investing in someone who has less to lose than I do. How much are you going to lose if this fails? How much are they? I'm guessing you'll lose more.

"This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!" Then the should have gone to kickstarter. It's telling that they didn't isn't it?

I'm done arguing with folks here. I've got no skin in the game so I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show. You carry on deluding yourself. I hope you didn't put too much on that credit card your putting all your hopes into. Debt can put your home at risk. You know that right?

That's my point and I've said all along, do not risk more than you can afford to loose.

I'm not getting into debt for this. There are way too many unforeseen factors such as whatever hashrate may be for the foreseeable future and how it reacts beyond.

Do your due diligence; we appear to have a talented team of guys providing specialist knowledge and experience in ASIC technology adapting to a new field, in what can only be described as a genuinely competitive sprint.

There is nothing stopping anyone from hanging back and buying when ASICs are cheaper for more moderate returns. In fact that may well be wiser.

The fact is it is a very exciting feat of engineering in a high pressure situation.

No I wouldn't expect them to risk their personal assets on this endeavour, and I certainly hope they are not. It would be moronic, when they don't have to. Indeed, they may have some liquidity now, but I doubt they're cracking out the champagne just yet, they still can't be sure of the final costs until everything has happened as planned, which never does. The time that they have given so far unsalaried under the expectation that they can raise enough funds has been time donated to the project. So far it's looking quite positive for them. They have to work hard now to ensure the story ends that way.

Good luck to them!

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June 07, 2013, 12:12:22 AM
 #774



This is the intelligence of knc AB, they found this opportunity and teamed up with ORSoC. If I had the same idea I could also find ORSoC and start this, but a sense of business opportunity showed their experience in enterprise level

I'm convinced when I saw ORSoC have their own FPGA developement suit (not just copied from the open source FPGA design), if they can develope the FPGA independantly, they already have all the required R&D competence in house. They said the bitcoin miner is very easy to design compared with their previous projects (radio network/robot)

And they promised to make their own miner and interface to be user friendly

After 7 days' paying period, they will send the payment directly to ASIC factory, the RTL design is already at the factory, now they are carefully review the design for any minor error



i think the first run will be mostly fine but they might get overwhellemed by customer service type stuff as things scale.  Avalon really wasnt ready for that and also had weird shipping issues.  

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June 07, 2013, 12:19:03 AM
 #775



This is the intelligence of knc AB, they found this opportunity and teamed up with ORSoC. If I had the same idea I could also find ORSoC and start this, but a sense of business opportunity showed their experience in enterprise level

I'm convinced when I saw ORSoC have their own FPGA developement suit (not just copied from the open source FPGA design), if they can develope the FPGA independantly, they already have all the required R&D competence in house. They said the bitcoin miner is very easy to design compared with their previous projects (radio network/robot)

And they promised to make their own miner and interface to be user friendly

After 7 days' paying period, they will send the payment directly to ASIC factory, the RTL design is already at the factory, now they are carefully review the design for any minor error



i think the first run will be mostly fine but they might get overwhellemed by customer service type stuff as things scale.  Avalon really wasnt ready for that and also had weird shipping issues.  

Customer service seems a daunting task, that none have yet tackled effectively, and it's the one area I can't see any present expertise here for either. It is a worry...

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
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June 07, 2013, 01:07:19 AM
 #776

Look the beef with entrepreneurs not remortgaging their family property is ridiculous!

Quite frankly I'd advise anyone raising funds to avoid that approach as much as I advise peeps to use credit card to make payment.

I've been quite vocal and pressed for a Litecoin FPGA and credit card payment. KnC were flexible enough to consider that and the smarts to achieve it.

This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!

If you think any smart wealthy self-made men risk their family possessions to fund projects you are at best deluded, or at worst mad! They have accountants and lawyers that oversee every step of the way to ensure their ass(ets) are protected. Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family. The fact they are willing to donate their time for free is risk enough.

I do however feel there should be an investor competence/intelligence test prior to receiving funds, but that's an impossible task...

Dude.... I don't know whether you're naive, deluded or worse. I know plenty of "smart, wealthy, self made men". Every single one of them has put MORE than their house on the line to get where they are today. Some have lost EVERTHING only to make it all back. If you're not willing to put skin in the game. You shouldn't be playing.

"Donating their time for free is risk enough". Will you listen to yourself. The only reason they weren't salaried is they HAD NO MONEY!!! Do you think their time will be free now they have millions of your pre-order money?  I'm pretty sure Champagne has been cracked and loans are being paid off as we speak.

"Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family" More fool you. I wouldn't even think of investing in someone who has less to lose than I do. How much are you going to lose if this fails? How much are they? I'm guessing you'll lose more.

"This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!" Then the should have gone to kickstarter. It's telling that they didn't isn't it?

I'm done arguing with folks here. I've got no skin in the game so I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show. You carry on deluding yourself. I hope you didn't put too much on that credit card your putting all your hopes into. Debt can put your home at risk. You know that right?

That's my point and I've said all along, do not risk more than you can afford to loose.

I'm not getting into debt for this. There are way too many unforeseen factors such as whatever hashrate may be for the foreseeable future and how it reacts beyond.

Do your due diligence; we appear to have a talented team of guys providing specialist knowledge and experience in ASIC technology adapting to a new field, in what can only be described as a genuinely competitive sprint.

There is nothing stopping anyone from hanging back and buying when ASICs are cheaper for more moderate returns. In fact that may well be wiser.

The fact is it is a very exciting feat of engineering in a high pressure situation.

No I wouldn't expect them to risk their personal assets on this endeavour, and I certainly hope they are not. It would be moronic, when they don't have to. Indeed, they may have some liquidity now, but I doubt they're cracking out the champagne just yet, they still can't be sure of the final costs until everything has happened as planned, which never does. The time that they have given so far unsalaried under the expectation that they can raise enough funds has been time donated to the project. So far it's looking quite positive for them. They have to work hard now to ensure the story ends that way.

Good luck to them!

Please point me in the direction of all this free money you can get your hands on. It certainly wasn't around when I started my business. If I went to the bank they wanted the capital secured against my house THEN would they match what I put in.

I developed property before now. I cashed in a few bonds, secured a loan against my house, worked hard for a few years and did very well thank you. Now I own a boutique animation studio and dabble in bitcoin as I have a renderfarm.  I can hash with it when its idle. So maybe I'm not as desperate as some of you seem to be. I have a lot of processing power sitting around so why waste it.

None of this came without risk. You think you're not playing with your "own personal assets" just because it says VISA on the card? If you can't pay they take your assets. There is no free money. If you default they blow your credit rating...... No mortgage for you. If you cant pay, they take your car....... Hello oyster card. If you really go deep they take your house......Back to mum's basement. That's how it works.

Maybe to you the system is moronic. Maybe it is. But its not so moronic they're giving money away. You think you can start a business without putting your own funds in? Think again. I knew people who approached property like that. Rising market, banks throwing cheap credit at you. "Its not my money its the banks. Gear up!!" Quite a few of them lost their shirts when the market tanked.  This Asic game reminds me of that. It won't last forever though. The bubble will burst.

There's a phrase: "Hurt money" its what you look for when investing in a startup. Has this guy put "hurt money in " Hurt money is enough to hurt, not to ruin but to hurt. I put hurt money into my business. Not enough to cripple me but enough to make sure I sweat when things looked tight. If these guys haven't got hurt money invested, they don't deserve my money, or yours.
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June 07, 2013, 01:13:32 AM
 #777

FWIW they said they aren't taking a salary right now and somewhere someone said they can't take profits until they deliver in some Swedish law..

I guess that is kinda hurt money type stuff

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June 07, 2013, 01:20:12 AM
 #778

Look the beef with entrepreneurs not remortgaging their family property is ridiculous!

Quite frankly I'd advise anyone raising funds to avoid that approach as much as I advise peeps to use credit card to make payment.

I've been quite vocal and pressed for a Litecoin FPGA and credit card payment. KnC were flexible enough to consider that and the smarts to achieve it.

This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!

If you think any smart wealthy self-made men risk their family possessions to fund projects you are at best deluded, or at worst mad! They have accountants and lawyers that oversee every step of the way to ensure their ass(ets) are protected. Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family. The fact they are willing to donate their time for free is risk enough.

I do however feel there should be an investor competence/intelligence test prior to receiving funds, but that's an impossible task...

Dude.... I don't know whether you're naive, deluded or worse. I know plenty of "smart, wealthy, self made men". Every single one of them has put MORE than their house on the line to get where they are today. Some have lost EVERTHING only to make it all back. If you're not willing to put skin in the game. You shouldn't be playing.

"Donating their time for free is risk enough". Will you listen to yourself. The only reason they weren't salaried is they HAD NO MONEY!!! Do you think their time will be free now they have millions of your pre-order money?  I'm pretty sure Champagne has been cracked and loans are being paid off as we speak.

"Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family" More fool you. I wouldn't even think of investing in someone who has less to lose than I do. How much are you going to lose if this fails? How much are they? I'm guessing you'll lose more.

"This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!" Then the should have gone to kickstarter. It's telling that they didn't isn't it?

I'm done arguing with folks here. I've got no skin in the game so I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show. You carry on deluding yourself. I hope you didn't put too much on that credit card your putting all your hopes into. Debt can put your home at risk. You know that right?

That's my point and I've said all along, do not risk more than you can afford to loose.

I'm not getting into debt for this. There are way too many unforeseen factors such as whatever hashrate may be for the foreseeable future and how it reacts beyond.

Do your due diligence; we appear to have a talented team of guys providing specialist knowledge and experience in ASIC technology adapting to a new field, in what can only be described as a genuinely competitive sprint.

There is nothing stopping anyone from hanging back and buying when ASICs are cheaper for more moderate returns. In fact that may well be wiser.

The fact is it is a very exciting feat of engineering in a high pressure situation.

No I wouldn't expect them to risk their personal assets on this endeavour, and I certainly hope they are not. It would be moronic, when they don't have to. Indeed, they may have some liquidity now, but I doubt they're cracking out the champagne just yet, they still can't be sure of the final costs until everything has happened as planned, which never does. The time that they have given so far unsalaried under the expectation that they can raise enough funds has been time donated to the project. So far it's looking quite positive for them. They have to work hard now to ensure the story ends that way.

Good luck to them!

Please point me in the direction of all this free money you can get your hands on. It certainly wasn't around when I started my business. If I went to the bank they wanted the capital secured against my house THEN would they match what I put in.

I developed property before now. I cashed in a few bonds, secured a loan against my house, worked hard for a few years and did very well thank you. Now I own a boutique animation studio and dabble in bitcoin as I have a renderfarm.  I can hash with it when its idle. So maybe I'm not as desperate as some of you seem to be. I have a lot of processing power sitting around so why waste it.

None of this came without risk. You think you're not playing with your "own personal assets" just because it says VISA on the card? If you can't pay they take your assets. There is no free money. If you default they blow your credit rating...... No mortgage for you. If you cant pay, they take your car....... Hello oyster card. If you really go deep they take your house......Back to mum's basement. That's how it works.

Maybe to you the system is moronic. Maybe it is. But its not so moronic they're giving money away. You think you can start a business without putting your own funds in? Think again. I knew people who approached property like that. Rising market, banks throwing cheap credit at you. "Its not my money its the banks. Gear up!!" Quite a few of them lost their shirts when the market tanked.  This Asic game reminds me of that. It won't last forever though. The bubble will burst.

There's a phrase: "Hurt money" its what you look for when investing in a startup. Has this guy put "hurt money in " Hurt money is enough to hurt, not to ruin but to hurt. I put hurt money into my business. Not enough to cripple me but enough to make sure I sweat when things looked tight. If these guys haven't got hurt money invested, they don't deserve my money, or yours.

Right ok, I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend. I'm paying by credit card for the security the card company offers in assuming liability.

I have enough cash to cover my purchase. It's just not being handed over direct. I want the buyer protection and I'm prepared to pay the card % fee to carry the burden whilst I keep hold of the cash.

I don't even mind not clearing the card debt immediately and paying the minimum payment to ensure I don't have to chase my cash back from the card company if anything went south.

I'm not spending more than the cash I'm comfortable spending on this project. I don't know where you've got the assumption I'm using debt. I'm not stupid!

Likewise there has been no need for any company directors to offer their house as collatoral for this, because social media, forums etc. offer a means of reaching a target audience, generating interest and funding the entire project at what ever risk they can reduce for themselves. That makes complete sense. I'm sure they do have hurt money, be it some direct, starting up the company etc., or out of potential salary/profit reinvesting in their own stock for the proposed data centres they plan to sell shares for. Perhaps the hurt money is the money they have presumably saved to cover mortgage and food/electricity whilst dedicating their time to this in the beginning? I'm not sure what wealthy people you've met, but I've worked around private equity and the deals i've seen all involve minimising liability and personal debt, using OPM and consulting a network of lawyers and accountants to ensure that occurs smoothly.

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June 07, 2013, 01:35:56 AM
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FWIW they said they aren't taking a salary right now and somewhere someone said they can't take profits until they deliver in some Swedish law..

I guess that is kinda hurt money type stuff

Of course there's no way to prove it, but selling a few queue positions, of which KnC was more than happy to facilitate, would hurt them not as much.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15js8JsyHAiGoq_ELzx0hxG4xdA9ePJrhrc8y2bbWbRc/edit?pli=1

Question 26: They were asked about a pool and had to have it explained.

Also, where is Q. 27?

Sam claimed that he and Andreas have been mining, assumed as a team, prior to starting KnC. Was it solo mining or on a pool? And if pool, which one?
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June 07, 2013, 01:54:41 AM
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Look the beef with entrepreneurs not remortgaging their family property is ridiculous!

Quite frankly I'd advise anyone raising funds to avoid that approach as much as I advise peeps to use credit card to make payment.

I've been quite vocal and pressed for a Litecoin FPGA and credit card payment. KnC were flexible enough to consider that and the smarts to achieve it.

This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!

If you think any smart wealthy self-made men risk their family possessions to fund projects you are at best deluded, or at worst mad! They have accountants and lawyers that oversee every step of the way to ensure their ass(ets) are protected. Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family. The fact they are willing to donate their time for free is risk enough.

I do however feel there should be an investor competence/intelligence test prior to receiving funds, but that's an impossible task...

Dude.... I don't know whether you're naive, deluded or worse. I know plenty of "smart, wealthy, self made men". Every single one of them has put MORE than their house on the line to get where they are today. Some have lost EVERTHING only to make it all back. If you're not willing to put skin in the game. You shouldn't be playing.

"Donating their time for free is risk enough". Will you listen to yourself. The only reason they weren't salaried is they HAD NO MONEY!!! Do you think their time will be free now they have millions of your pre-order money?  I'm pretty sure Champagne has been cracked and loans are being paid off as we speak.

"Quite frankly I wouldn't even consider investing in anyone reckless enough to jepordise their family" More fool you. I wouldn't even think of investing in someone who has less to lose than I do. How much are you going to lose if this fails? How much are they? I'm guessing you'll lose more.

"This is nothing more or less than a kickstarter crowd source and require due diligence on both sides!" Then the should have gone to kickstarter. It's telling that they didn't isn't it?

I'm done arguing with folks here. I've got no skin in the game so I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show. You carry on deluding yourself. I hope you didn't put too much on that credit card your putting all your hopes into. Debt can put your home at risk. You know that right?

That's my point and I've said all along, do not risk more than you can afford to loose.

I'm not getting into debt for this. There are way too many unforeseen factors such as whatever hashrate may be for the foreseeable future and how it reacts beyond.

Do your due diligence; we appear to have a talented team of guys providing specialist knowledge and experience in ASIC technology adapting to a new field, in what can only be described as a genuinely competitive sprint.

There is nothing stopping anyone from hanging back and buying when ASICs are cheaper for more moderate returns. In fact that may well be wiser.

The fact is it is a very exciting feat of engineering in a high pressure situation.

No I wouldn't expect them to risk their personal assets on this endeavour, and I certainly hope they are not. It would be moronic, when they don't have to. Indeed, they may have some liquidity now, but I doubt they're cracking out the champagne just yet, they still can't be sure of the final costs until everything has happened as planned, which never does. The time that they have given so far unsalaried under the expectation that they can raise enough funds has been time donated to the project. So far it's looking quite positive for them. They have to work hard now to ensure the story ends that way.

Good luck to them!

Please point me in the direction of all this free money you can get your hands on. It certainly wasn't around when I started my business. If I went to the bank they wanted the capital secured against my house THEN would they match what I put in.

I developed property before now. I cashed in a few bonds, secured a loan against my house, worked hard for a few years and did very well thank you. Now I own a boutique animation studio and dabble in bitcoin as I have a renderfarm.  I can hash with it when its idle. So maybe I'm not as desperate as some of you seem to be. I have a lot of processing power sitting around so why waste it.

None of this came without risk. You think you're not playing with your "own personal assets" just because it says VISA on the card? If you can't pay they take your assets. There is no free money. If you default they blow your credit rating...... No mortgage for you. If you cant pay, they take your car....... Hello oyster card. If you really go deep they take your house......Back to mum's basement. That's how it works.

Maybe to you the system is moronic. Maybe it is. But its not so moronic they're giving money away. You think you can start a business without putting your own funds in? Think again. I knew people who approached property like that. Rising market, banks throwing cheap credit at you. "Its not my money its the banks. Gear up!!" Quite a few of them lost their shirts when the market tanked.  This Asic game reminds me of that. It won't last forever though. The bubble will burst.

There's a phrase: "Hurt money" its what you look for when investing in a startup. Has this guy put "hurt money in " Hurt money is enough to hurt, not to ruin but to hurt. I put hurt money into my business. Not enough to cripple me but enough to make sure I sweat when things looked tight. If these guys haven't got hurt money invested, they don't deserve my money, or yours.

Right ok, I'm not sure why this is so hard to comprehend. I'm paying by credit card for the security the card company offers in assuming liability.

I have enough cash to cover my purchase. It's just not being handed over direct. I want the buyer protection and I'm prepared to pay the card % fee to carry the burden whilst I keep hold of the cash.

I don't even mind not clearing the card debt immediately and paying the minimum payment to ensure I don't have to chase my cash back from the card company if anything went south.

I'm not spending more than the cash I'm comfortable spending on this project. I don't know where you've got the assumption I'm using debt!

Likewise there has been no need for any company directors to offer their house as collatoral for this, because social media, forums etc. offer a means of reaching a target audience, generating interest and funding the entire project at what ever risk they can reduce for themselves. That makes complete sense. I'm sure they do have hurt money, be it some direct, starting up the company etc., or out of potential profit reinvesting in their own stock for the proposed data centres they plan to sell shares for. I'm not sure what wealthy people you've met, but I've worked around private equity and the deals i've seen all involve minimising liability and personal debt, using OPM and consulting a network of lawyers and accountants to ensure that occurs.

Well goody gumdrops for you. I'm sure the majority of people that "invested" in this little venture are not as fortunate and all your naive assumptions, wishful thinking and flag waving have probably encouraged more than a few to "slap it on a credit card" You're ok though so no worries eh?

As for wealthy people, I've met a few but unlike you finance boys we had to use our own money. Not pension funds, tax payer bailouts or junk repackaged as AAA to make money. Maybe that's why our financial system is so messed up. Your bosses didn't invest any hurt money.
Minimising liability? In my day that was doing your homework, making sure the sums add up and not rushing in like a fool. Before I had a financial advisor, lawyers and accountants I did it at a coffee table with my wife. Now I do it in an office. Big deal. Of course you'd minimise personal liability but you can't eradicate it. Unless of course you say your building an asic then some people just bend over and hand you their credit cards.

Anyway its been fun sparring I'm off to bed.
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