BiblePay | 10% to Orphan-Charity | RANDOMX MINING | Sanctuaries (Masternodes)

[vahtis]

Now I have a question for you Rob.

I have timestamp on my wallet about tithe at 2019-2-12 22:59 UTC+2

Same transaction in explorer shows 2019-2-13 15:08
http://explorer.biblepay.org:3001/tx/b27179c2c3bbeef3fbccc0e348954f6d9e00f326e2fabefc1553117449aef8aa

Will I get reward for it in 24h?

Hmm, it looks like that tithe would not have been counted, but then otoh, we just passed 51% on this version 1187.
I sent the 253 bbp back to you.

What you can do in the future, is anyone who believes they have a negative ROI after block 102025, you can type:
exec istithelegal txid

If anyone ever observes a tithe legal = false, let me know.  But this should be resolved for the most part now (since we surpassed 51% today) and then completely after block 102025 you should not see illegal tithes again (as they will be rejected by the network).

This happened total of 4 times in two wallets I control. I do not mind those "extra" donations, but I am curious if this is a bug? The are calculated into pogpool at the moment. So something weird there.

[sunk818]

I wrote answers to your questions here:
https://discontinuo.us/biblepay-unofficial-wiki/proof-of-giving/how-to-setup-biblepay-proof-of-giving-pog-using-new-wallet

Thank you! It helps a lot.
Another questions:
- If I am entitled to tithe based on the current difficulty, How many bbp coints is the auto-tithe (tithe=x) going to send?
- How often can I manually tithe? Can I send two consecutives tithe? If yes, then why there is a max limit?

1) When you check on PoG Tithe? there's a tithe amount. That is what would be sent every 4 hours if your wallet is eligible.

2) Right now, you can manually tithe as long as you are eligible. That will change soon though. Rob explained:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg49694962#msg49694962

Pog primarily works the best on the machine you keep your bbp balance (as pog uses coin age to tithe).
If you want to mine on 3 machines, I recommend to set machine A up for POG, then machines B & C for solo or pool mining.

With 1187, is there a limit on how many times we can tithe and a max tithe amount?

In Phase 1, if POG Diff < 5000, and the supermajority has upgraded, we only accept 5 tithes per block, and the tithe parameters have not changed.
In Phase 2, after block 102025, the maximum tithe amount is 10 bbp, and we limit the tithe count to 75 per block (if diff is < 5000 for that block). 
In Phase 2, after block 102025, if POG diff > 5000, we limit the tithe count to 150 per block.

Rejected POG tithes show up in the client as "The transaction was rejected by the network! Check your wallet to ensure the coins have not been double spent."

The BBP will not be subtracted from the users balance and the icon will show as conflicted.

[bible_pay]

The word of the day for this forum is "Diablos" - this means : backbiter, accuser, slanderer.  It's another word for the Devil.

I rebuke the spirit of Diablos from this forum in Jesus name.

I command slanderers, and backbiters, and those that love Gossip, to leave now, and I dispel you from our core group in Jesus name.

I pray that you receive the Holy Spirit, and receive Jesus, and a strong urge to read the bible and love one another.

God didnt come to destroy sinners, but instead he commands us to Love our neighbor as ourself, and emit Love not hate.

[bible_pay]

Now I have a question for you Rob.

I have timestamp on my wallet about tithe at 2019-2-12 22:59 UTC+2

Same transaction in explorer shows 2019-2-13 15:08
http://explorer.biblepay.org:3001/tx/b27179c2c3bbeef3fbccc0e348954f6d9e00f326e2fabefc1553117449aef8aa

Will I get reward for it in 24h?

Hmm, it looks like that tithe would not have been counted, but then otoh, we just passed 51% on this version 1187.
I sent the 253 bbp back to you.

What you can do in the future, is anyone who believes they have a negative ROI after block 102025, you can type:
exec istithelegal txid

If anyone ever observes a tithe legal = false, let me know.  But this should be resolved for the most part now (since we surpassed 51% today) and then completely after block 102025 you should not see illegal tithes again (as they will be rejected by the network).

This happened total of 4 times in two wallets I control. I do not mind those "extra" donations, but I am curious if this is a bug? The are calculated into pogpool at the moment. So something weird there.

Its not a bug, please go with what I replied to you originally.

[sunk818]

for me, podc was not complicated, it just takes few days to make it work, few days of waiting of course

That's because you are good with computers. Not everyone is like us.

[bible_pay]

I wrote answers to your questions here:
https://discontinuo.us/biblepay-unofficial-wiki/proof-of-giving/how-to-setup-biblepay-proof-of-giving-pog-using-new-wallet

Thank you! It helps a lot.
Another questions:
- If I am entitled to tithe based on the current difficulty, How many bbp coints is the auto-tithe (tithe=x) going to send?
- How often can I manually tithe? Can I send two consecutives tithe? If yes, then why there is a max limit?

1) When you check on PoG Tithe? there's a tithe amount. That is what would be sent every 4 hours if your wallet is eligible.

2) Right now, you can manually tithe as long as you are eligible. That will change soon though. Rob explained:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg49694962#msg49694962

Pog primarily works the best on the machine you keep your bbp balance (as pog uses coin age to tithe).
If you want to mine on 3 machines, I recommend to set machine A up for POG, then machines B & C for solo or pool mining.

With 1187, is there a limit on how many times we can tithe and a max tithe amount?

In Phase 1, if POG Diff < 5000, and the supermajority has upgraded, we only accept 5 tithes per block, and the tithe parameters have not changed.
In Phase 2, after block 102025, the maximum tithe amount is 10 bbp, and we limit the tithe count to 75 per block (if diff is < 5000 for that block). 
In Phase 2, after block 102025, if POG diff > 5000, we limit the tithe count to 150 per block.

Rejected POG tithes show up in the client as "The transaction was rejected by the network! Check your wallet to ensure the coins have not been double spent."

The BBP will not be subtracted from the users balance and the icon will show as conflicted.

And also just to simplify all this, after block 102024, just set tithe=10 in your wallet and it will constantly be scanning the coins to see if you are eligibile to tithe.  If so it will send one - and will always be profitable in that case... So yes POG is going to be very simple in another 700 blocks.

It either tithes or it doesnt.  There will be only one control, the gas pedal.

(In contrast to PODC, that has an airplane cockpit in it).

[capulo]

Thank you vahtis and cupulo for the information shared. It clarifies a lot of things.
How much bbp the auto-tithe (tithe=1) will tithe?

And what does it means the following numbers:
https://i.ibb.co/ftJhmfH/bbp.png

Does red means bad? I mean, does the red color means that I have not enough age/coins to tithe? Or these numbers are always displayed in red?

Edit:
Now the 2nd line shows all 0.
https://i.ibb.co/7V0fPFL/bbp2.png
Why is everything set to 0 now?

it is always red i think
first screen showing that you have something able to tithe, try manualy and you will see
second one has higher diff and most probably you dont have coins with good coinage and so, try again manualy, it throws you error what is wrong

maybe you dont have high enough stack of coins. coin age is only one from more requisition

Ok. I got it. But as far as I can see in the "Inputs..." I have enough old coins to tithe...
Uffff.. this is so confusing...  I miss Rosetta and PODC...

[capulo]

I am starting to have the feeling that this coin is just for a few techies to mine efficiently. There are so many changes all the time that is impossible to be up to date.  I have two (out of three) colleagues that already gave up with this last change (POG) and decided to move to another coin that is more stable from the mining perspective.
Basically, miners need to read ALL posts (a lot) to be up to date so I don't consider this a very good practice for an easy-to-mine coin.
There is any chance to go back to PODC + POW or this new model (POG) has been already signed off? How the success of POG will be measured?

podc is still working, you can try
which coin are you mining now, if it is cpu only send me pls PM

[bible_pay]

Well, thanks for your responses.  

On point 2) the point I was making is at median difficulty the reward was about 3:1, but currently the supply of coins won't allow for even median difficulty with the change to Pog so the reward realistically will be 5:1 or there abouts.  If PoDC was eliminated...the reward shifted to PoG and the max tithe increased by a similar percentage, then we wouldn't be able to hit any where close to median difficulty and the 3:1 reward would be much much higher.

If you're unwilling to mitigate your strength in voting then let's just vote tomorrow since you hold the majority of traditionally voting nodes and at least remove the uncertainty of what will happen.  You've done a lot of work and deserve a large say in how things go, but with your position of strength in voting, if you plan on voting the nodes you control then there is really no point in any debate.  Just tell us the direction you're taking the coin and do it...saving us the heart ache of actually thinking we may have a real voice in this coin.

On #2, I don't think you realize we have a tithe cap or a reward cap per day in POG.  In Phase 1 we only pay out 90K per day.  Therefore this thing about rewards being "much higher" would not be true.  They are the same in phase 1 and phase 2 (they never breach the covenant of our emission schedule).

On voting:  For one I have the vote scheduled in 20 days or so because POG has not really been rolled out yet.  It needs to enter phase2 for people to see its value first then have something to compare PODC to.  Then we will vote on schedule as block 106000 or so is when people expect the vote to be.  What I am confused about is why you are trying to infer that I hold the key to the vote.  Why do you think I have more than 20% of the sancs?  We have approx 496 nodes right now.  You should be lobbying the other approx 75% sancs that are owned by people other than me. 

Slovakia claimed something like I received special treatment to earn free sancs.. What did I get in payroll, 30 million bbp or so in total?  Maybe that helped me buy 20 of my sancs, but I just as easily could have crashed the price, isnt it more noble to run those sancs than crash the price?  All the other sancs I bought on the free market.  So no, there was no special treatment.

On #2 let me restate:

Right now, with the current reward structure and tithe cap, at median difficulty would pay out approx 3:1 reward:tithe.  The problem is median difficulty (with the revisions to Pog limiting a single tithe to a max of 10), cannot be reached with our current supply.  So the level that CAN be reached is a lower difficulty that pays a higher ratio.  Since all of the current supply will not be used for PoG titheing (non-participants and those with Sanctuaries), the actual reward will be MUCH HIGHER.

Real numbers:

The median difficulty would require coins that are 30 days old, would require the "coin amount" to be 12,500 and the maximum tithe to be 5.  Since the current maximum cumulative daily tithes is basically 50,000 (50,694 is the real number), it would take 50,000/2 or 25,000 in daily tithes to reach median difficulty.  This means there would be 25,000/5 or 5000 individual tithes.  Each of these tithes would be supported from a coin stack that was at least 30 days old and at least 12,500 BBP in size.  At median difficulty, each of the tithe's would receive an equal share of the approximately 82,000 in rewards so 82,000/5000 or 16.4 BBP per tithe (just north of 3:1 ratio).  But to reach median, you in effect need 30 days * 5000 tithes * 12,500 BBP to be "locked up".  That is 1.875B BBP, our current supply is only 1.3B, so we cannot reach median.  Since it's likely that a large number of MN will not disband and free up their stake for PoG nor the marketplaces participate, nor even 100% of the users participate, the realistic maximum stake that can be "locked" is far less than the supply.  So the actual ratio will be MUCH HIGHER than 3:1 because median difficulty is impossible over the long run with the current supply and current parameters.

It gets worse if PoDC is disbanded and PoG gets the whole PoDC reward.  Then the maximum tithe would by the current design go to "half the monthly charity budget", which right now would be 3.3M coins/ month or 110,000 per day (roughly double the current cap), but the reward would go from 82,000/day to over 1M/day (a twelve fold increase).  With a higher cap, median difficulty could not be achieved for years or possibly decades (it would start at requiring nearly 4B coins to be "locked" into PoG).  And for the near term, PoG would pay out approximately 17:1 at median difficulty (which isn't going to be possible).  Realistically, achieving even difficulty at 20,000 would be a stretch, but at that level would require 18 day age, 7600 size and 7 maximum tithe amount and lock up 650M coins (half our current supply) and pay 198 BBP/7 tithe or a 28:1 ratio.  

So yes, I've thought this out a lot more than you give me credit for.

On the voting point, I'll just say you have every right to vote all your MN, I don't feel you've cheated the system to get the (unknown) number you have.   But you do know that of the Sanctuaries that normally vote, you hold the super-majority.  You also know or should know that 100% participation is unheard of, even DASH only gets about 25% participation and we're more or less in line with that.  So in reality, you control the direction of the coin with both your labor and can with your voting strength.  So if you're dead set on PoG, just do it and reduce the uncertainty that is affecting the community.

Ok, I think we are closer in agreement to the voting dilemma, that is, as long as you all know that Slovakia is lying about the sanc count and just throws numbers out there to provoke me to try to pry answers from me, by using dirty tactics (as a terrorist would).  As I said I'm closer to 20-25%~ of the weight, and its my personal business if the # is fluctuating due to many
 personal reasons, and I'm not exadurating to hide nodes, I don't have them all set up and have unreliable hosts.  The issue with me being the most active, on this-I would say that this is one of the most important decisions steering the coin.  It's up to one who holds the status of Sanctuary to exercise his/her rights; its very important.  If they care about this coin they should most certainly jump in and vote in 5000 blocks - so this is a very weak argument.  As a matter of fact it should be spread on discord, Use your voting rights if you have them.  We should see 50% on the voting rights turn out on an important vote if its important .  On dash we probably see institutions owning big shares and not knowing how to vote.

Let me take a look at what you are referring to on #2.  Note that I do not view your opinion as inaccurate or low - at all, nor do I think you aren't analyzing properly.  I view your opinion as coming from a smart statistician, and just know that the whole time I thought you might be missing one key figure (I still think you might be missing a key figure here).  Give me a few minutes and Ill respond to that separately.

[capulo]

I have a hard time understanding how to debug the tithing.
I have tithe=1 and gen=1 in the config.
I have about 400.000BBP in the wallet mined over a year now.
I run PODC.
But my wallet has only tithed twice over a week.
I keep reading this thread over and over, but find it hard to figure out where to look for solutions.
Does anybody know where to start debug?
If I understand this correctly, I should be able to tithe once a day atleast.

Rgrds

did you use exec bankroll? you need to split coins into smaller stacks
then you need to wait for coinage
if you were able to tithe only 2 times, it means that 40x you dont met difficulty, eg you have younger coins or smaller stack or so...
or you can try increase tithe interval from tithe=1 (4h) to lets say tithe=10 (10 min) you will have more chances to met diff

[capulo]

How long I will get these losses?
Tithes -1 655.10053560 Biblepay
Reward +1 614.55979473 Biblepay

Why this wallet got less rewards than it gave?

Other wallet I control made gains during same timeframe

Tithes -497.70015320 Biblepay
Reward +850.93978577 Biblepay

this should not be possible, as i know rewards are linear, so everybody should gets same %
hmm
or i missed something

[bible_pay]

How long I will get these losses?
Tithes -1 655.10053560 Biblepay
Reward +1 614.55979473 Biblepay

Why this wallet got less rewards than it gave?

Other wallet I control made gains during same timeframe

Tithes -497.70015320 Biblepay
Reward +850.93978577 Biblepay

this should not be possible, as i know rewards are linear, so everybody should gets same %
hmm
or i missed something

One of his tithes was illegal (exec istithelegal txid), which should not be possible after block 102025.
So another words he tithed it and the pool didnt accept it, but it also was not rejected by the network.

Once the supermajority is on the new version, it should be impossible for someone to mine an illegal tithe.

(It was illegal because it was mined in a block where his tithe didnt meet the diff level for the block).

[bible_pay]

Well, thanks for your responses.  

On point 2) the point I was making is at median difficulty the reward was about 3:1, but currently the supply of coins won't allow for even median difficulty with the change to Pog so the reward realistically will be 5:1 or there abouts.  If PoDC was eliminated...the reward shifted to PoG and the max tithe increased by a similar percentage, then we wouldn't be able to hit any where close to median difficulty and the 3:1 reward would be much much higher.

If you're unwilling to mitigate your strength in voting then let's just vote tomorrow since you hold the majority of traditionally voting nodes and at least remove the uncertainty of what will happen.  You've done a lot of work and deserve a large say in how things go, but with your position of strength in voting, if you plan on voting the nodes you control then there is really no point in any debate.  Just tell us the direction you're taking the coin and do it...saving us the heart ache of actually thinking we may have a real voice in this coin.

On #2, I don't think you realize we have a tithe cap or a reward cap per day in POG.  In Phase 1 we only pay out 90K per day.  Therefore this thing about rewards being "much higher" would not be true.  They are the same in phase 1 and phase 2 (they never breach the covenant of our emission schedule).

On voting:  For one I have the vote scheduled in 20 days or so because POG has not really been rolled out yet.  It needs to enter phase2 for people to see its value first then have something to compare PODC to.  Then we will vote on schedule as block 106000 or so is when people expect the vote to be.  What I am confused about is why you are trying to infer that I hold the key to the vote.  Why do you think I have more than 20% of the sancs?  We have approx 496 nodes right now.  You should be lobbying the other approx 75% sancs that are owned by people other than me. 

Slovakia claimed something like I received special treatment to earn free sancs.. What did I get in payroll, 30 million bbp or so in total?  Maybe that helped me buy 20 of my sancs, but I just as easily could have crashed the price, isnt it more noble to run those sancs than crash the price?  All the other sancs I bought on the free market.  So no, there was no special treatment.

On #2 let me restate:

Right now, with the current reward structure and tithe cap, at median difficulty would pay out approx 3:1 reward:tithe.  The problem is median difficulty (with the revisions to Pog limiting a single tithe to a max of 10), cannot be reached with our current supply.  So the level that CAN be reached is a lower difficulty that pays a higher ratio.  Since all of the current supply will not be used for PoG titheing (non-participants and those with Sanctuaries), the actual reward will be MUCH HIGHER.

Real numbers:

The median difficulty would require coins that are 30 days old, would require the "coin amount" to be 12,500 and the maximum tithe to be 5.  Since the current maximum cumulative daily tithes is basically 50,000 (50,694 is the real number), it would take 50,000/2 or 25,000 in daily tithes to reach median difficulty.  This means there would be 25,000/5 or 5000 individual tithes.  Each of these tithes would be supported from a coin stack that was at least 30 days old and at least 12,500 BBP in size.  At median difficulty, each of the tithe's would receive an equal share of the approximately 82,000 in rewards so 82,000/5000 or 16.4 BBP per tithe (just north of 3:1 ratio).  But to reach median, you in effect need 30 days * 5000 tithes * 12,500 BBP to be "locked up".  That is 1.875B BBP, our current supply is only 1.3B, so we cannot reach median.  Since it's likely that a large number of MN will not disband and free up their stake for PoG nor the marketplaces participate, nor even 100% of the users participate, the realistic maximum stake that can be "locked" is far less than the supply.  So the actual ratio will be MUCH HIGHER than 3:1 because median difficulty is impossible over the long run with the current supply and current parameters.

It gets worse if PoDC is disbanded and PoG gets the whole PoDC reward.  Then the maximum tithe would by the current design go to "half the monthly charity budget", which right now would be 3.3M coins/ month or 110,000 per day (roughly double the current cap), but the reward would go from 82,000/day to over 1M/day (a twelve fold increase).  With a higher cap, median difficulty could not be achieved for years or possibly decades (it would start at requiring nearly 4B coins to be "locked" into PoG).  And for the near term, PoG would pay out approximately 17:1 at median difficulty (which isn't going to be possible).  Realistically, achieving even difficulty at 20,000 would be a stretch, but at that level would require 18 day age, 7600 size and 7 maximum tithe amount and lock up 650M coins (half our current supply) and pay 198 BBP/7 tithe or a 28:1 ratio.  

So yes, I've thought this out a lot more than you give me credit for.

On the voting point, I'll just say you have every right to vote all your MN, I don't feel you've cheated the system to get the (unknown) number you have.   But you do know that of the Sanctuaries that normally vote, you hold the super-majority.  You also know or should know that 100% participation is unheard of, even DASH only gets about 25% participation and we're more or less in line with that.  So in reality, you control the direction of the coin with both your labor and can with your voting strength.  So if you're dead set on PoG, just do it and reduce the uncertainty that is affecting the community.

On #2, I don't understand the spirit of your point.  A page ago I thought your point was when a tither who can tithe 300 bbp moves to tithing only 10 bbp (and average diff drops), their reward will be MUCH HIGHER.  And I said No, it will be the same (which is true).  Now it appears you are comparing POG to losing PODC, somehow, stating that a POG miner will receive MUCH HIGHER (compared to what?) of a reward, well yes, if they drop 10 computers electric bills, and receive rewards for tithing, and our pool recipient count stays static (which it wont!) then yes they receive a higher reward. 


Let me clarify the numbers first then maybe you can re-phrase your point.  I don't even understand why you are talking about locked up coins.  If coins are free they will either be sold or invested in sanctuaries (I estimate 80% will be locked up in a sanc rather than just sit around in someones account for no reason).  My point is if we dispand PODC, 30% of the coins might get sold cheap on SX, out of the remaining 70%, 75% of those will create new sancs, we dont know the exact figure, but yes, of course we will have a different animal after unlocking 50 MM coins that are currently locked.

POG doesnt lock any coins - lets agree with that. 

Here are the key figures - lets talk about only two scenarios - after block 102025, we have Environment A (POG + PODC), and hypothetically after block 108,000 we have environment B (POG only).

Environment A:  Maximum Tithes Accepted per day:  52000.  Payout from Pog Pool per day:  75000.
Environment B:  Maximum Tithes Accepted per day:  92000.  Payout from Pog Pool per day:  960,000.

Imo, it does not matter if the POG diff algorithm hovers at a median.  Since this is a free market and the mining activity is governed by profitability, more miners will most !certainly! enter the pog pool as soon as PODC is disabled.  Its a true fallacy to think that if we have 50 miners in the pog pool in Environment A, that we will have 50 in environment B.  It is utterly and most certainly false.  We would certainly have 500 miners in Environment B (minimum) since the pool pays out 960,000 in rewards per day.

In light of this let me stop here.

Ill say more thing, this is most certainly happening also:  After block 102025, after everyone tithes and exhausts their coin age, the entire network will start re-tithing in the same day, because diff will drop significantly.  This means that it is *entirely* possible that the 27K~ per day in donations does start to reach 52K even in environment A.

In environment B, I would wager a 100% liklihood that we reach the exact 92K per day tithe cap from donations.  This is because everyone will be trying to get those high rewards.


What all this means to the average user is, let us assume that we have 50 people in Pog Pool today.  This means an average user would receive about 4,000 in reward in BBP.  In Environment B if nothing changes (which it will) they would immediately jump to 40,000 per day in rewards.  But quickly as word gets out that the pool is bigger, the pool recipient count will grow to 500 (within a couple weeks) and the 40,000 reward will drop back down to 4,000 per tithe recipient.

So none of this nefarious or bad for biblepay like you are saying.  This is just a free economic pool.

[sunk818]

On #2, I don't think you realize we have a tithe cap or a reward cap per day in POG.  In Phase 1 we only pay out 90K per day.  Therefore this thing about rewards being "much higher" would not be true.  They are the same in phase 1 and phase 2 (they never breach the covenant of our emission schedule).

So, with current circulating supply that means that each participants will receive more BBP without reaching the median difficulty. Why is that a concern for you? Are you worried that those rewards will be sold on exchanges (reducing BBP price) or made into MNs and MN payment goes down?

[MIP]

We still have a 20% PoBH reward attached to PoG rewards (now it's low until PoG gets fully active). I think we can look for an equilibrium point where PoBH reward is good enough for small miners but not big enough to incentivize huge botnets as in the beginning.

For users not interested in PoBH, they can jump into PoG. Here there is no direct "cost" in terms of electricity or equipment, but an indirect "time" or "opportunity" cost.

Regarding the masternode voting system, there are almost 500 MNs as of today. The fact that we have like 350 who never vote, is not Rob's or anyone else's fault. It is not a perfect world but it's the best we have. There should be a real chance that 300 MNs vote against anybody's proposal, but today it's enough to gather half that amount.

[macko20]

The bbp price shows how changes are received.

This is the effect of lack of patience in business. In these hard times for crypto, no one likes changes. At this price this coin has already landed in the crypto trash. Now, unfortunately, next superblock will be at 1sato.

[bible_pay]

The bbp price shows how changes are received.

This is the effect of lack of patience in business. In these hard times for crypto, no one likes changes. At this price this coin has already landed in the crypto trash. Now, unfortunately, next superblock will be at 1sato.

I think the BBP price change has to do with those who unlocked the 20bbp-per-rac and feel like front-running the others who didnt.

Period.

I think you we should be more patient before we judge - this analysis is naive and jumping the gun.

[bible_pay]

On #2 let me restate:

Right now, with the current reward structure and tithe cap, at median difficulty would pay out approx 3:1 reward:tithe.  The problem is median difficulty (with the revisions to Pog limiting a single tithe to a max of 10), cannot be reached with our current supply.  So the level that CAN be reached is a lower difficulty that pays a higher ratio.  Since all of the current supply will not be used for PoG titheing (non-participants and those with Sanctuaries), the actual reward will be MUCH HIGHER.

Real numbers:

The median difficulty would require coins that are 30 days old, would require the "coin amount" to be 12,500 and the maximum tithe to be 5.  Since the current maximum cumulative daily tithes is basically 50,000 (50,694 is the real number), it would take 50,000/2 or 25,000 in daily tithes to reach median difficulty.  This means there would be 25,000/5 or 5000 individual tithes.  Each of these tithes would be supported from a coin stack that was at least 30 days old and at least 12,500 BBP in size.  At median difficulty, each of the tithe's would receive an equal share of the approximately 82,000 in rewards so 82,000/5000 or 16.4 BBP per tithe (just north of 3:1 ratio).  But to reach median, you in effect need 30 days * 5000 tithes * 12,500 BBP to be "locked up".  That is 1.875B BBP, our current supply is only 1.3B, so we cannot reach median.  Since it's likely that a large number of MN will not disband and free up their stake for PoG nor the marketplaces participate, nor even 100% of the users participate, the realistic maximum stake that can be "locked" is far less than the supply.  So the actual ratio will be MUCH HIGHER than 3:1 because median difficulty is impossible over the long run with the current supply and current parameters.

It gets worse if PoDC is disbanded and PoG gets the whole PoDC reward.  Then the maximum tithe would by the current design go to "half the monthly charity budget", which right now would be 3.3M coins/ month or 110,000 per day (roughly double the current cap), but the reward would go from 82,000/day to over 1M/day (a twelve fold increase).  With a higher cap, median difficulty could not be achieved for years or possibly decades (it would start at requiring nearly 4B coins to be "locked" into PoG).  And for the near term, PoG would pay out approximately 17:1 at median difficulty (which isn't going to be possible).  Realistically, achieving even difficulty at 20,000 would be a stretch, but at that level would require 18 day age, 7600 size and 7 maximum tithe amount and lock up 650M coins (half our current supply) and pay 198 BBP/7 tithe or a 28:1 ratio.  

So yes, I've thought this out a lot more than you give me credit for.

On the voting point, I'll just say you have every right to vote all your MN, I don't feel you've cheated the system to get the (unknown) number you have.   But you do know that of the Sanctuaries that normally vote, you hold the super-majority.  You also know or should know that 100% participation is unheard of, even DASH only gets about 25% participation and we're more or less in line with that.  So in reality, you control the direction of the coin with both your labor and can with your voting strength.  So if you're dead set on PoG, just do it and reduce the uncertainty that is affecting the community.

On #2, I don't understand the spirit of your point.  A page ago I thought your point was when a tither who can tithe 300 bbp moves to tithing only 10 bbp (and average diff drops), their reward will be MUCH HIGHER.  And I said No, it will be the same (which is true).  Now it appears you are comparing POG to losing PODC, somehow, stating that a POG miner will receive MUCH HIGHER (compared to what?) of a reward, well yes, if they drop 10 computers electric bills, and receive rewards for tithing, and our pool recipient count stays static (which it wont!) then yes they receive a higher reward.  


Let me clarify the numbers first then maybe you can re-phrase your point.  I don't even understand why you are talking about locked up coins.  If coins are free they will either be sold or invested in sanctuaries (I estimate 80% will be locked up in a sanc rather than just sit around in someones account for no reason).  My point is if we dispand PODC, 30% of the coins might get sold cheap on SX, out of the remaining 70%, 75% of those will create new sancs, we dont know the exact figure, but yes, of course we will have a different animal after unlocking 50 MM coins that are currently locked.

POG doesnt lock any coins - lets agree with that.  

Here are the key figures - lets talk about only two scenarios - after block 102025, we have Environment A (POG + PODC), and hypothetically after block 108,000 we have environment B (POG only).

Environment A:  Maximum Tithes Accepted per day:  52000.  Payout from Pog Pool per day:  75000.
Environment B:  Maximum Tithes Accepted per day:  92000.  Payout from Pog Pool per day:  960,000.

Imo, it does not matter if the POG diff algorithm hovers at a median.  Since this is a free market and the mining activity is governed by profitability, more miners will most !certainly! enter the pog pool as soon as PODC is disabled.  Its a true fallacy to think that if we have 50 miners in the pog pool in Environment A, that we will have 50 in environment B.  It is utterly and most certainly false.  We would certainly have 500 miners in Environment B (minimum) since the pool pays out 960,000 in rewards per day.

In light of this let me stop here.

Ill say more thing, this is most certainly happening also:  After block 102025, after everyone tithes and exhausts their coin age, the entire network will start re-tithing in the same day, because diff will drop significantly.  This means that it is *entirely* possible that the 27K~ per day in donations does start to reach 52K even in environment A.

In environment B, I would wager a 100% liklihood that we reach the exact 92K per day tithe cap from donations.  This is because everyone will be trying to get those high rewards.

What all this means to the average user is, let us assume that we have 50 people in Pog Pool today.  This means an average user would receive about 4,000 in reward in BBP.  In Environment B if nothing changes (which it will) they would immediately jump to 40,000 per day in rewards.  But quickly as word gets out that the pool is bigger, the pool recipient count will grow to 500 (within a couple weeks) and the 40,000 reward will drop back down to 4,000 per tithe recipient.

So none of this nefarious or bad for biblepay like you are saying.  This is just a free economic pool.

So first, I'm not saying it's nefarious...that is you again putting words in other's mouths.  I'm saying this is a bad system for BBP as it is laid out (version two or three or whatever we're on that caps the max individual tithe at 10 BBP).  I'm not insulting you personally, I'm not calling you names.  I am saying I believe you're too close to the system to see it's faults and that is why I don't feel you voting with your massive voting block is good, even though I readily accept you have every right to do so.  But you can't call that vote democratic, it is at best a plutocracy.  But again, it is your right to vote if you see fit.

On PoG not locking coins:  I agree in legal terms, the coins are not locked.  To be clear, I'm not claiming that tithing funds are locked like in Masternodes or even Proof of Stake, that's why I've used "locked" in quotes.  Because even though it's not legally locked, it is in practice.  In a single day, to reach median difficulty, you need half the tithe cap.  Those tithes are supported by coins "stacks" of at least the minimum value of at least the minimum age.  So (under current standards) to reach median difficulty, 5000 tithes of 5 BBP, each of those tithes would be supported by a separate stack of coins of at least 12,500.  5000x12,5000 is 62.5M.  So every day, you need 62M coins that have done nothing for 30 days...which means in a 30 day period you're going to need 30 * 62M or 1.8B coins.

So I will say if you think we'll reach the daily cap under the current standards or especially the proposed standards then you've not run the numbers, as it is impossible until the daily emission deflates considerably.  That is not to say it could not happen once or twice in a blue moon, but there literally won't be enough supply to tithe the max over the long run.  

With the new standard, over time, the tithing would equalize, and over time would statistically see even tithing each day.  With a tithing cap of 92,000 (although it really would be 110,000 by the current emissions), to reach median difficulty you need 92,000/2 = 46,000 coins at median/5 = 9,200 tithes at 5 BBP that are from stacks of at least 12,500 coins and at least 30 days old.  That means every day, you need 115M coins that have done nothing for 30 days.  Over 30 days, means you need 3.45B coins to achieve an equalized system.

With the new standard, regardless of the return (which is a separate issue), to hit the max daily tithe, you would need 92,000/1 or 92,000 tithes at 1 BBP each from stacks of at least 25,000 aged at least 60 days, or 2.3B coins in one day.  Granted, there would be some larger tithes that sneak in at the difficulty breaks but there still won't be enough coins in the market to achieve this in a single day let alone do this more than once in a great while.

So, yes, some tithes would come in at lower difficulty, but the majority would come in closer to the target standards, which again, means there is not enough supply under this revision of PoG to achieve what you are saying.

And that brings the issue that hasn't been discussed, fairness of tithing.  There would be breaks where the difficulty drops and the max individual tithe spikes supported by fewer coins of younger age, but once these gaps are filled, those after them, in the same rewards blocks, would have in essence had a higher standard held against them...that is smaller max, larger stack of older age.  Over time this coudl

Oh Ok, thanks, I just like to put words in others mouths; OK, great.  (Even if the words are synonomous to your spirit).  Oh and I do it "again" right, even though I can't remember doing it before, unless you mean quoting you in a more succinct way.  Maybe that's how we should communicate:  Remove the FUD, remove the misleading nature of the post, remove anything your not sure of first, then tell me if I've referred to your spirit incorrectly.

POG versions: we are up to two or three versions now, right?  Sure.  I wonder what the difference was between them, was it a configuration parameter between 1 & 2?  Yes.  So is it a new version of the algorithm?  But in reality we're on still on #1 and #2 is the only future version I'm referring to, the one with the configuration change in it.  But thats right you were too proud to help in testnet and didnt participate, and when I laid out the rules you had nothing to say.  But thats OK, we created it without flaws, as you have not found any.

My voting is not welcome because we're not democratic, Oh I see.

I maintain that we are 100% democratic and anyone who buys a 1.55 MM Sanc may vote in a poll which dictates the future of biblepay.

I don't understand the negative spirit you bring to biblepay in response to POG;  I see a lot of words here with incorrect terminology and assumptions.

All the coins in the world who offer high rewards and have a low miner count end up with an equilibrium of miners:rewards.  So its a fallacy for you to say that "we are hoping" that the miners fill in the void within a couple years or whatever - you are in error, and I have the historical proof available to prove that we will fill the void very quickly when PODC is retired.

I'm insulted that you want to hold a vote early, if you are concerned about being democratic then we should let everyone prepare for the vote so we have maximum vote exposure by sancs.  I believe you want the vote at a time when perception of POG is low, as you realize perception will be much more positive after block 102025.

This is sort of a hyprocritical attitude.  Its like saying Togo bought too much biblepay early so lets kick him out.  West has too many computers on PODC so lets not be fair and balanced to evaluate POG properly.

But, the truth of the matter is POG is fairer than Bitcoin's POW - as you are not up against an ASIC pool who can afford discounted chips, instead you receive a share percentage of the pool based on how much coin age you have and partially with 20% CPU-Mined distinct full node miners. 

Reaching a median network difficulty does not matter.

[capulo]

hmm coin control is little bit crazy
i have ~ 500k already splitted to many piles
i sent another 500k, wait for 20+ confirmations and wants to split them
and exec bankroll 50 10000 takes already splitted piles with coin ages ~3 days and resplitted them
500k what i sent was untouched
next exec bankroll takes 500k pile finally

but how can i split only coins which i want? to not risk already gained coin ages?
if this will happen again with coin ages 30+ i will be very baad (when podc will be replaced with pog and i will be moving coins)

[sunk818]

If I thought PoG would lead to a doubling of our active user base over the next year, I'd probably feel differently as user base would support the price and make up for the production cost deficiency.  But I don't see Pog as being a magic bullet that will fix everything.

Make up in volume. Sometimes organizations go out of business thinking they can make it up on volume. Sometimes you can, but you really need a good plan to succeed and gain market share. I think PoG has that potential. Once the algo is locked down and proven to work (although I have my reservations currently), it'll be a marketing game. Good marketing includes word-of-mouth, so having more participants definitely helps with that. My concern is that greed is a very powerful motivator... and there will likely be many participants... but is that the kind of community we want to attract with BiblePay? It seems anti-thetical to Christian values.