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digitalindustry
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March 17, 2014, 05:24:56 AM |
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everyone here is delusional. innovative alts will take over soon, wake up. Quark is done and so are all the 1st generation alts. Im trying to be a realist
USD$ bag holder - you guys are so negative? poor people , buy a new Cat it will help. : ) make sure to pat it. |
- Twitter @Kolin_Quark
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digitalindustry
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March 17, 2014, 05:27:45 AM |
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The community is large, and the coin is established... however it is fragmented.
We need more combined efforts. QRK is a great coin. Is the dev familiar with POS and is it really required or not?
Some people on reddit talked about this: " My naive impression is that these are achieve opposite goals: PoS causes people to horde coins even more, since those holding them get rewarded for not spending them, whereas demurrage would punish people for not spending their coins. Right now I don't think demurrage would help anything, the recent prolonged downtrend should cause big holders to decrease their holdings. PoS would also be a bad idea, in my opinion, since the coin was released with the implicit agreement that there would be only .5% annual interest beyond the initial mining phase. Increasing this percentage, or switching to 0% mining reward and .5% annual PoS would most likely make a lot of people unhappy." " Definitely in favor of this. Although, I would prefer if we could have PoS instead of PoW combined with it. Instead of rewarding miners, if we reward everyone who is staking, it would still secure the network but be more appealing to a wider base of people (anyone with a computer)." " No distribution problem as Quark is done distributing. Current coins would earn stake in this hypothetical. Demurrage will destroy coins and under Freicoin, the coins destroyed are replaced through POW mining to roughly fix the supply. " For my preferred coin, demurrage which punishes you for not spending, in combination with staking which benefits those for holding (and secures the network) would be great. The reason why I think it would be great for Quark is that it would hurt the big inactive wallets on two fronts. 1) the demurrage for not spending and 2) they probably aren't leaving their wallets open and won't receive staked coins." The 3rd quote seems like a good idea what do you think? I will pm Max on this. Why do you have a problem with miners being rewarded?(Quark must be the least rewarding coin to mine as it is!) Freicoin is a failure, It is no fun watching your coins slowly disappear everytime you open your wallet! You want people to spend? Create products and services for them to buy! POS is not needed.great words friend. 1 month in to our distribution period. Quark is the community currency . |
- Twitter @Kolin_Quark
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DigiWorld
Member
 Offline
Activity: 73
Merit: 10
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March 17, 2014, 05:54:55 AM |
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The community is large, and the coin is established... however it is fragmented.
We need more combined efforts. QRK is a great coin. Is the dev familiar with POS and is it really required or not?
Some people on reddit talked about this: " My naive impression is that these are achieve opposite goals: PoS causes people to horde coins even more, since those holding them get rewarded for not spending them, whereas demurrage would punish people for not spending their coins. Right now I don't think demurrage would help anything, the recent prolonged downtrend should cause big holders to decrease their holdings. PoS would also be a bad idea, in my opinion, since the coin was released with the implicit agreement that there would be only .5% annual interest beyond the initial mining phase. Increasing this percentage, or switching to 0% mining reward and .5% annual PoS would most likely make a lot of people unhappy." " Definitely in favor of this. Although, I would prefer if we could have PoS instead of PoW combined with it. Instead of rewarding miners, if we reward everyone who is staking, it would still secure the network but be more appealing to a wider base of people (anyone with a computer)." " No distribution problem as Quark is done distributing. Current coins would earn stake in this hypothetical. Demurrage will destroy coins and under Freicoin, the coins destroyed are replaced through POW mining to roughly fix the supply. " For my preferred coin, demurrage which punishes you for not spending, in combination with staking which benefits those for holding (and secures the network) would be great. The reason why I think it would be great for Quark is that it would hurt the big inactive wallets on two fronts. 1) the demurrage for not spending and 2) they probably aren't leaving their wallets open and won't receive staked coins." The 3rd quote seems like a good idea what do you think? I will pm Max on this. Why do you have a problem with miners being rewarded?(Quark must be the least rewarding coin to mine as it is!) Freicoin is a failure, It is no fun watching your coins slowly disappear everytime you open your wallet! You want people to spend? Create products and services for them to buy! POS is not needed.The total hash rate is about 800Mh. It could be attacked by a GPU farm. POS or POS/POW will secure the quark network better. |
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quarkfx
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March 17, 2014, 12:19:01 PM |
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The community is large, and the coin is established... however it is fragmented.
We need more combined efforts. QRK is a great coin. Is the dev familiar with POS and is it really required or not?
Some people on reddit talked about this: " My naive impression is that these are achieve opposite goals: PoS causes people to horde coins even more, since those holding them get rewarded for not spending them, whereas demurrage would punish people for not spending their coins. Right now I don't think demurrage would help anything, the recent prolonged downtrend should cause big holders to decrease their holdings. PoS would also be a bad idea, in my opinion, since the coin was released with the implicit agreement that there would be only .5% annual interest beyond the initial mining phase. Increasing this percentage, or switching to 0% mining reward and .5% annual PoS would most likely make a lot of people unhappy." " Definitely in favor of this. Although, I would prefer if we could have PoS instead of PoW combined with it. Instead of rewarding miners, if we reward everyone who is staking, it would still secure the network but be more appealing to a wider base of people (anyone with a computer)." " No distribution problem as Quark is done distributing. Current coins would earn stake in this hypothetical. Demurrage will destroy coins and under Freicoin, the coins destroyed are replaced through POW mining to roughly fix the supply. " For my preferred coin, demurrage which punishes you for not spending, in combination with staking which benefits those for holding (and secures the network) would be great. The reason why I think it would be great for Quark is that it would hurt the big inactive wallets on two fronts. 1) the demurrage for not spending and 2) they probably aren't leaving their wallets open and won't receive staked coins." The 3rd quote seems like a good idea what do you think? I will pm Max on this. Why do you have a problem with miners being rewarded?(Quark must be the least rewarding coin to mine as it is!) Freicoin is a failure, It is no fun watching your coins slowly disappear everytime you open your wallet! You want people to spend? Create products and services for them to buy! POS is not needed.I have no problem if the community doesn´t like the idea. This is just my contribution to a general discourse. But I think we should get the arguments straight. Therefore I´d like to tackle some aruments used to reject demurrage: - "Freicoin is a failure": Still, it already exists for quite some time. One of the reasons they are still alive is that they have a community that has ties to peer groups who want to push the idea of freigeld in real life. That´s a plus many cryptocoins don´t have. It´s simply unfair to say that it is a failure. - "It is no fun watching your coins slowly disappear everytime you open your wallet" As far as I see, they disappear only with transactions (which I consider to be a minus), but anyway. Even if the count of your Quark doesn´t diminish it changes value everyday. ALso, if you can´t buy anything with Quark they have no real but only speculative value. If it has real value, you can use your Quark without loss. You only lose if you use them to speculate. If Quark really want´s to be the better money then it needs to mature from speculative currency to real currency, then demurrage won´t be a problem at all. The question is, whether we want to go there and if yes, why it would be a problem if we reached the point. - "You want people to spend?" Thats not the point of demurrage. Demurrage is a mechanism that keeps people from accumulating money, so it´s not about pressing people to buy but about avoiding bubbles and currency instability. Even if the distribution of Quark isn´t as bad as people say, there is like with most, maybe all cryptocurrencies a huge disparity between small and fat wallets. Also, and even more important, because of the fact that you don´t know how many individuals control how many addresses (which is a good thing from a privacy point of view) there will always be a huge insecurity about whales. Whales who believe in Quark and are therefore not selling-off are good because they artificially level up it´s value but if they lose confidence they can easily cause a currency crisis with many small holders loosing a lot of their money. Actually it happened on small scale some time ago. This is worse than decounting 5% a year of the money you didn´t spend because you had no use for it. This is not a problem of Quark, it is a crypto problem in general and it will always be like this because cryptos are (fortunately) pseudonymous. I am also not saying that whales are in general a problem. To Quark they are currently more important than ever - but in the future we need measure that will lead to a better distribution because it will make the currency more stable, thus more interesting for real-life-users who don´t want to lose 20% of their value in a week. Again, demurrage is no punishment. It is a measure to make sure that a currency is used as what it is: an instrument and to prevent people from treating it as inherent value which it is not. P.S.: I agree that POS is not needed. In fact I believe it would have a negative effect on distribution, thus exchange rate stability. |
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cryptohunter
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1167
MY RED TRUST LEFT BY SCUMBAGS - READ MY SIG
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March 17, 2014, 12:32:09 PM |
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The community is large, and the coin is established... however it is fragmented.
We need more combined efforts. QRK is a great coin. Is the dev familiar with POS and is it really required or not?
Some people on reddit talked about this: " My naive impression is that these are achieve opposite goals: PoS causes people to horde coins even more, since those holding them get rewarded for not spending them, whereas demurrage would punish people for not spending their coins. Right now I don't think demurrage would help anything, the recent prolonged downtrend should cause big holders to decrease their holdings. PoS would also be a bad idea, in my opinion, since the coin was released with the implicit agreement that there would be only .5% annual interest beyond the initial mining phase. Increasing this percentage, or switching to 0% mining reward and .5% annual PoS would most likely make a lot of people unhappy." " Definitely in favor of this. Although, I would prefer if we could have PoS instead of PoW combined with it. Instead of rewarding miners, if we reward everyone who is staking, it would still secure the network but be more appealing to a wider base of people (anyone with a computer)." " No distribution problem as Quark is done distributing. Current coins would earn stake in this hypothetical. Demurrage will destroy coins and under Freicoin, the coins destroyed are replaced through POW mining to roughly fix the supply. " For my preferred coin, demurrage which punishes you for not spending, in combination with staking which benefits those for holding (and secures the network) would be great. The reason why I think it would be great for Quark is that it would hurt the big inactive wallets on two fronts. 1) the demurrage for not spending and 2) they probably aren't leaving their wallets open and won't receive staked coins." The 3rd quote seems like a good idea what do you think? I will pm Max on this. Why do you have a problem with miners being rewarded?(Quark must be the least rewarding coin to mine as it is!) Freicoin is a failure, It is no fun watching your coins slowly disappear everytime you open your wallet! You want people to spend? Create products and services for them to buy! POS is not needed.I have no problem if the community doesn´t like the idea. This is just my contribution to a general discourse. But I think we should get the arguments straight. Therefore I´d like to tackle some aruments used to reject demurrage: - "Freicoin is a failure": Still, it already exists for quite some time. One of the reasons they are still alive is that they have a community that has ties to peer groups who want to push the idea of freigeld in real life. That´s a plus many cryptocoins don´t have. It´s simply unfair to say that it is a failure. - "It is no fun watching your coins slowly disappear everytime you open your wallet" As far as I see, they disappear only with transactions (which I consider to be a minus), but anyway. Even if the count of your Quark doesn´t diminish it changes value everyday. ALso, if you can´t buy anything with Quark they have no real but only speculative value. If it has real value, you can use your Quark without loss. You only lose if you use them to speculate. If Quark really want´s to be the better money then it needs to mature from speculative currency to real currency, then demurrage won´t be a problem at all. The question is, whether we want to go there and if yes, why it would be a problem if we reached the point. - "You want people to spend?" Thats not the point of demurrage. Demurrage is a mechanism that keeps people from accumulating money, so it´s not about pressing people to buy but about avoiding bubbles and currency instability. Even if the distribution of Quark isn´t as bad as people say, there is like with most, maybe all cryptocurrencies a huge disparity between small and fat wallets. Also, and even more important, because of the fact that you don´t know how many individuals control how many addresses (which is a good thing from a privacy point of view) there will always be a huge insecurity about whales. Whales who believe in Quark and are therefore not selling-off are good because they artificially level up it´s value but if they lose confidence they can easily cause a currency crisis with many small holders loosing a lot of their money. Actually it happened on small scale some time ago. This is worse than decounting 5% a year of the money you didn´t spend because you had no use for it. This is not a problem of Quark, it is a crypto problem in general and it will always be like this because cryptos are (fortunately) pseudonymous. I am also not saying that whales are in general a problem. To Quark they are currently more important than ever - but in the future we need measure that will lead to a better distribution because it will make the currency more stable, thus more interesting for real-life-users who don´t want to lose 20% of their value in a week. Again, demurrage is no punishment. It is a measure to make sure that a currency is used as what it is: an instrument and to prevent people from treating it as inherent value which it is not. P.S.: I agree that POS is not needed. In fact I believe it would have a negative effect on distribution, thus exchange rate stability. No way will demurrage be introduced, i have seen zero successful coins implement this idea. The very idea of it seem insane to most people. Forced to spend your coins or they are taken away just sounds crazy. Really from the start qrk has not had the most noisy dev, most highly skilled people seem to be rather quite people, the entire marketing success of qrk has been down to DI really. He pushed it forward and got it out to a wider audience. Sure leave the dev as the dev who can focus on the tech side and high level things, however it is time to create a new team that operates under the dev but to organise projects and things on here for the qrk community. Privately funded projects that have some roi is the way to go. We need to get in contact with qrk whales too and people that have qrk but are just holding out for the investment side of it. We will need to reach them via bill still and invite them to invest and contribute to new projects for qrk. If there is roi you can be sure ppl will be a lot more interested. |
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quarkfx
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March 17, 2014, 12:54:13 PM |
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"No way will demurrage be introduced, i have seen zero successful coins implement this idea. The very idea of it seem insane to most people. Forced to spend your coins or they are taken away just sounds crazy." That´s not a valid argument. 1st of all Noone succeeded so it never will? Apply this argument to Bitcoin at early stages and there you have it. 2nd there are already successful currencies with demurrage on a regional basis and they have a solid infrastructure unlike most cryptos. This is one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChiemgauerPeople called the Chiemgauer insane before and they were wrong. The system turns out to work pretty well since 2003. Ideas that don´t apply with the mainstream are usually rejected on the basis of common sense assumptions and not on facts. |
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cryptohunter
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1167
MY RED TRUST LEFT BY SCUMBAGS - READ MY SIG
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March 17, 2014, 01:05:01 PM |
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"No way will demurrage be introduced, i have seen zero successful coins implement this idea. The very idea of it seem insane to most people. Forced to spend your coins or they are taken away just sounds crazy." That´s not a valid argument. 1st of all Noone succeeded so it never will? Apply this argument to Bitcoin at early stages and there you have it. 2nd there are already successful currencies with demurrage on a regional basis and they have a solid infrastructure unlike most cryptos. This is one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChiemgauerPeople called the Chiemgauer insane before and they were wrong. The system turns out to work pretty well since 2003. Ideas that don´t apply with the mainstream are usually rejected on the basis of common sense assumptions and not on facts. The people that mostly invested in qrk viewed it with the common investment goal..... their investment increases in value. Now i understand fully that you are saying by creating more usage and less storage their actual investment could increase more than if not motivating people to use qrk. However we don't have enough services yet and also people involved with crypto for the most part don't like being told what to do or forced to do anything. If they want to spend they will , if they want to save it they will. Demurrage is not for qrk in my opinion nor for any crypto. Provide services they want to use - they will use them Show them private projects they can fund with good roi ....they will invest It becomes a circle. We need a core qrk team, team head up projects get them done. They take a slice of the fee's the new service we create charges. |
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mcphervi
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March 17, 2014, 03:21:30 PM |
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Guys - this campaign has been a rousing success! Lets start making major crypto news sites take notice! 1. Join the thunderclap https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/9706-let-s-reinvent-money-together2.. Follow @Quarkpress 3. Retweet our updates! I've directed the latest at COINDESK Lets ROAR together! Vic PS I'm away from home and will chime in on this stuff once I'm no longer trying to post on my phone! |
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quarkfx
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March 17, 2014, 03:29:57 PM |
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"No way will demurrage be introduced, i have seen zero successful coins implement this idea. The very idea of it seem insane to most people. Forced to spend your coins or they are taken away just sounds crazy." That´s not a valid argument. 1st of all Noone succeeded so it never will? Apply this argument to Bitcoin at early stages and there you have it. 2nd there are already successful currencies with demurrage on a regional basis and they have a solid infrastructure unlike most cryptos. This is one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChiemgauerPeople called the Chiemgauer insane before and they were wrong. The system turns out to work pretty well since 2003. Ideas that don´t apply with the mainstream are usually rejected on the basis of common sense assumptions and not on facts. The people that mostly invested in qrk viewed it with the common investment goal..... their investment increases in value. Now i understand fully that you are saying by creating more usage and less storage their actual investment could increase more than if not motivating people to use qrk. However we don't have enough services yet and also people involved with crypto for the most part don't like being told what to do or forced to do anything. If they want to spend they will , if they want to save it they will. Demurrage is not for qrk in my opinion nor for any crypto. Provide services they want to use - they will use them Show them private projects they can fund with good roi ....they will invest It becomes a circle. We need a core qrk team, team head up projects get them done. They take a slice of the fee's the new service we create charges. I respect your opinion and I agree on the part that working on infrastructure is currently priority 1. Still I don´t see how the current crypto system will level out the negative effects the intransparency about distribution has. Quark is affected by this intransparency in a different way than cryptos like Bitcoin. And again: I don´t see buying a coin as investment. Investing is supporting community projects and spending money on infrastructure projects. The rest is speculation/gambling. |
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quarkfx
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March 17, 2014, 03:31:15 PM |
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Guys - this campaign has been a rousing success! Lets start making major crypto news sites take notice! 1. Join the thunderclap https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/9706-let-s-reinvent-money-together2.. Follow @Quarkpress 3. Retweet our updates! I've directed the latest at COINDESK Lets ROAR together! Vic PS I'm away from home and will chime in on this stuff once I'm no longer trying to post on my phone! It´s already a great success. You´ve done an awesome job, Vic. To the 500 and beyond! |
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reRaise
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March 17, 2014, 04:06:09 PM |
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digitalindustry
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March 17, 2014, 04:16:13 PM |
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I like this sort of discussion , its rarely seen on other Crypto :
as Regards making changes to the core structure in using directed market policy as incentive to encourage the market in a certain direction , i think this is better done from a peripheral that is to say outside the core structure.
I will give an example:
Economically speaking spending and the opposite hording are really factors of the greater sociological market, lets think about this practically:
i would say 80 to 90% of people in Crypto currency still think in fiat terms , and of course it will be that way , we know we can get that piece of paper and go to the shop or a merchant and they give us generally agreed amounts of "things" for the paper.
spending and hording is based on these strong sociological factors.
now we need to move the market forward in time imagine a time where there is no pieces of paper (extreme deflation) or too much (inflation) then at that time i can guarantee you that that % of people that think in fiat will dramatically start to value Crypto in different ways, spending will become a factor of the market. hording will cease to be the main meaningful factor.
so what can we take from that?
any investment that is long term in Crypto is a bet that Fiat is going to return to its centralized market value, traders will try to get in and out of the market to gain more pieces of paper but if they hold paper they are betting the opposite.
Summary:
I think incentives can be outside the core structure, for example Fiat money only gains interest in a bank to offset the fact that the Bank needs the deposit to justify a reserve ratio to create new fraud.
the money itself is just a vehicle.
I do think lots can be done on the peripheral i.e yes investment with good returns for investors , normal market capitalism I agree with this 100%, in fact only by including more people to see benefits can we accelerate the growth and network aspect, so this is important.
these could include helping start mico businesses , casinos if thats what people like, exchanges , and payments systems and much more, even native development.
i'm always open to new opinion .
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- Twitter @Kolin_Quark
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greentea
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1418
Merit: 1002
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March 17, 2014, 07:09:13 PM |
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reRaise
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March 17, 2014, 07:22:09 PM |
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Can you explain more on this new feature? Does my CPU mine automatically when i open the wallet? I can see that my CPU is using 25% now the wallet is open, pretty cool. I didn't select how many threads though, how many threads is 25% CPU usage? |
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cryptohunter
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1167
MY RED TRUST LEFT BY SCUMBAGS - READ MY SIG
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March 17, 2014, 07:41:10 PM |
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I like this sort of discussion , its rarely seen on other Crypto :
as Regards making changes to the core structure in using directed market policy as incentive to encourage the market in a certain direction , i think this is better done from a peripheral that is to say outside the core structure.
I will give an example:
Economically speaking spending and the opposite hording are really factors of the greater sociological market, lets think about this practically:
i would say 80 to 90% of people in Crypto currency still think in fiat terms , and of course it will be that way , we know we can get that piece of paper and go to the shop or a merchant and they give us generally agreed amounts of "things" for the paper.
spending and hording is based on these strong sociological factors.
now we need to move the market forward in time imagine a time where there is no pieces of paper (extreme deflation) or too much (inflation) then at that time i can guarantee you that that % of people that think in fiat will dramatically start to value Crypto in different ways, spending will become a factor of the market. hording will cease to be the main meaningful factor.
so what can we take from that?
any investment that is long term in Crypto is a bet that Fiat is going to return to its centralized market value, traders will try to get in and out of the market to gain more pieces of paper but if they hold paper they are betting the opposite.
Summary:
I think incentives can be outside the core structure, for example Fiat money only gains interest in a bank to offset the fact that the Bank needs the deposit to justify a reserve ratio to create new fraud.
the money itself is just a vehicle.
I do think lots can be done on the peripheral i.e yes investment with good returns for investors , normal market capitalism I agree with this 100%, in fact only by including more people to see benefits can we accelerate the growth and network aspect, so this is important.
these could include helping start mico businesses , casinos if thats what people like, exchanges , and payments systems and much more, even native development.
i'm always open to new opinion .
Exactly.... i think leave max to the tech side and core development like you say. Too many people expect the dev to also somehow create services. That is totally unrealistic. A very high level polished poker room with good rake back but something really pro and some good promotions.... could be a gold mine. An exchange another gold mine, lots of possibilities . However we do need to make qrk holders aware of these investments. A lot of qrk holders are from outside of the crypto community. We will need to reach those people to give them fair opportunity to invest. I have no problem at all with the person organising and taking the lead with having a percentage for their effort and hard work. Nobody can work for nothing. This is one of the biggest mistakes i see in all crypto communities, they all want things done, but nobody likes to pay. Therefore you get stagnation and it costs them 100x more than a small % for someone to take the lead and organise some services. I know it's easy to suggest things when you are techno ignorant and have no clue how the things you're suggesting could be implemented. However really it would be nice to see the qrk wallet become a place where you can keep up to date or get alerts on things that are important in the qrk community. New investment opportunities and new projects being started. The more people that have a stake in projects the more interest you build and more momentum and community spirit. DI i think should be the new marketing leader, ie the centre of projects for qrk. Only if he wants to and has the time. Of course anyone can always start projects themselves nobody needs permission... i just mean we need a central hub for the marketing and new services and projects. Let's get started with something.... no time like the present. Everyone can add ideas etc. If you have an amazing idea then best to PM DI (if he wants to be the projects leader) and discuss the finer details there since can't have every other community just stealing qrks plans  I personally have no issue with DI or whoever wants to be new projects manager having a certain % of the project cost for doing all the organising and work. I can't speak for anyone else but this makes perfect sense to me. Get a plan, work out the budget, show people personal roi and let's get rolling. |
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Max Guevara
Member
Offline
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
Quark developer
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March 17, 2014, 07:43:53 PM |
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Can you explain more on this new feature? Does my CPU mine automatically when i open the wallet? I can see that my CPU is using 25% now the wallet is open, pretty cool. I didn't select how many threads though, how many threads is 25% CPU usage? By default it uses 1 thread, so you probably have 4 cores on your machine. This thread runs at a low priority, so it shouldn't affect other processes on your machine. Under Settings (the drop down menu) you select how much CPU to use on mining. If you have 4 cores and select 4 threads, it will attempt to use all your CPU power. |
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