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Author Topic: [1050 TH] BitMinter.com [1% PPLNS,Pays TxFees +MergedMining,Stratum,GBT,vardiff]  (Read 834510 times)
jjdub7
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August 15, 2014, 10:54:39 AM
 #7321

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...

It's about paying the electricity dude.  Some of us can't do these bad weeks.

Plus the price of BTC is dropping in the market, which piles the pressure on more.  It's only £300 now, and it was £350 on Monday.

I don't like it, but bills is bills.  I need a certain amount of my payments safe to make sure I get the cash to cover said bills.  It's just how it is I'm afraid.


I'll also be honest:

This has always been a small pool ( with a great GUI and customer service ).  Losing 1/4 oh the Hash still leaves it a small pool.  What we really need is for a couple of the Petahash Icelandic DataCentres to come over.  Trying to nab lots of small miners, who in my experience have the higher electricity bills, is not gonna work.  You need people with low electricity bills so that they can genuinely tough these bad patches out.

People based near Solar and Wind farms are good ( Afirca? ), but the Icelandic mines are the obvious crowd to talk to.  Even if they only divert 1/4 of their hash ( per business ) that's still some nice hash coming in.   It's why Bitmine.ch are doing their hosting out that way.

The problem is how Bitcoin and Electricity cost.  We're in a bit of a perfect storm at present by the looks of it.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/coinfloorGBP#rg120ztgTzm1g10zm2g25

A bad week or two in the pool is one thing, but we've got a price drop coming in at the same time.  It really does hit the small miners I'm afraid.

And what happens to the BTC price when everyone on the network migrates to the 2-3 biggest pools and we're back at the mining-collusion-scare hysteria again?

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August 15, 2014, 11:03:29 AM
 #7322

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...

It's about paying the electricity dude.  Some of us can't do these bad weeks.

Plus the price of BTC is dropping in the market, which piles the pressure on more.  It's only £300 now, and it was £350 on Monday.

I don't like it, but bills is bills.  I need a certain amount of my payments safe to make sure I get the cash to cover said bills.  It's just how it is I'm afraid.


I'll also be honest:

This has always been a small pool ( with a great GUI and customer service ).  Losing 1/4 oh the Hash still leaves it a small pool.  What we really need is for a couple of the Petahash Icelandic DataCentres to come over.  Trying to nab lots of small miners, who in my experience have the higher electricity bills, is not gonna work.  You need people with low electricity bills so that they can genuinely tough these bad patches out.

People based near Solar and Wind farms are good ( Afirca? ), but the Icelandic mines are the obvious crowd to talk to.  Even if they only divert 1/4 of their hash ( per business ) that's still some nice hash coming in.   It's why Bitmine.ch are doing their hosting out that way.

The problem is how Bitcoin and Electricity cost.  We're in a bit of a perfect storm at present by the looks of it.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/coinfloorGBP#rg120ztgTzm1g10zm2g25

A bad week or two in the pool is one thing, but we've got a price drop coming in at the same time.  It really does hit the small miners I'm afraid.

And what happens to the BTC price when everyone on the network migrates to the 2-3 biggest pools and we're back at the mining-collusion-scare hysteria again?

BTC price is tied to demand.  Will people use it or not?  As long as the Big Pools don't cross the 50% rule Bitcoin will remain stable.

At present it's like a WH Smith Voucher or Travellers Cheque.  Worth money, but only in certain places.  As such you can only do so much.  And that is why prices remain low.  People are not taking it up as quickly as they could.  But, I am still selling what I make well enough ( thankfully ); so the lights are staying on.


The only thing hitting Minter that can be pinned on us is 'bad luck' at present.  And that is why I talk about bet-spreading and modding your miners to get a better power ratio.

When bad luck hits the response has to be to use skill to provide people with solutions.  That is how you inspire people to hang around.  Skill so good ( hopefully ) even bad luck can't stop us.


We're too small to rig the market, but the big pools need BTC stable and effective or they go out of business.  Rigging markets is, well, I don't see how you can do it unless you have a ton of BTC you got dirt cheap; and are now flooding the market with said cheap BTC.  AT present any reserves the big pools have will start to drop, as their profit ratio drops ( they'll have staff to pay after all ).

Have we seen anything to show that that is happening yet?  This price drop harms the BTC brokers as well, and some will take major losses in this Storm.  They may end up out of business.

Which is why it is so important our miners survive this storm.  Skill.  As long as our miners are still ticking over we can get through it.



People need to move electricity to the cheapest provider they can find, and then mod their units to get the best power to hash ratio they can.  And if it's old ( like an old s1 ) just switch it off until times are better.
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August 15, 2014, 11:33:25 AM
 #7323

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...

It's about paying the electricity dude.  Some of us can't do these bad weeks.

Plus the price of BTC is dropping in the market, which piles the pressure on more.  It's only £300 now, and it was £350 on Monday.

I don't like it, but bills is bills.  I need a certain amount of my payments safe to make sure I get the cash to cover said bills.  It's just how it is I'm afraid.


I'll also be honest:

This has always been a small pool ( with a great GUI and customer service ).  Losing 1/4 oh the Hash still leaves it a small pool.  What we really need is for a couple of the Petahash Icelandic DataCentres to come over.  Trying to nab lots of small miners, who in my experience have the higher electricity bills, is not gonna work.  You need people with low electricity bills so that they can genuinely tough these bad patches out.

People based near Solar and Wind farms are good ( Afirca? ), but the Icelandic mines are the obvious crowd to talk to.  Even if they only divert 1/4 of their hash ( per business ) that's still some nice hash coming in.   It's why Bitmine.ch are doing their hosting out that way.

The problem is how Bitcoin and Electricity cost.  We're in a bit of a perfect storm at present by the looks of it.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/coinfloorGBP#rg120ztgTzm1g10zm2g25

A bad week or two in the pool is one thing, but we've got a price drop coming in at the same time.  It really does hit the small miners I'm afraid.

And what happens to the BTC price when everyone on the network migrates to the 2-3 biggest pools and we're back at the mining-collusion-scare hysteria again?



Market forces I know of:


- The Icelandic Crowd have cheap electricity.  They are more likely to survive due to this, and also more likely to have large reserves of BTC they have not sold yet.  They're also VERY big players.

- I don't know of anything in Africa yet, but with that much Solar Power going on it would not surprise me if people head that way soon.

- The brokers will have bought & sold BTC to make profit.  They buy low and sell high.  With the market now dipping they'll be buying.  I doubt they'll be selling at a silly-low price.  When the market bottoms you buy.

- Miners, over all, will make some to sell ( to pay the bills ) and then stash the rest.  Such is life.

- Demand.  If no-one wants to buy Bitcoin to use then demand will drop.  And that WILL effect price.



So we have 2 possibles I know of:

1)  Demand has dropped, so prices are dropping.
2)  Someone is flooding the market with cheap Bitcoin to get people to buy it like they would invest in gold.


If you look at that graph you'll see we've had dips like this before, and then recovery.  I don't think there's any reason to panic just yet.  But...

If you have an electricity bill to pay you'll need to make Bitcoin at a good rate, and then sell it at a good rate.  With Minter in a bad patch AND the market dipping that won't be easy.  And, naturally, that will scare people into moving to the safer ( larger ) pools.

The only reason why GHash pays better at present is because Minter is having some bad luck ( after 3 months of good luck ).  Minter has been winning in the past against GHash.

Small Pools feel the market a lot more.  It's just how it is.  The Wild Ride.  And who can afford to live in a casino 24/7?  Not many people in reality.
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August 15, 2014, 01:12:47 PM
 #7324

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...

It's about paying the electricity dude.  Some of us can't do these bad weeks.

Plus the price of BTC is dropping in the market, which piles the pressure on more.  It's only £300 now, and it was £350 on Monday.

I don't like it, but bills is bills.  I need a certain amount of my payments safe to make sure I get the cash to cover said bills.  It's just how it is I'm afraid.


I'll also be honest:

This has always been a small pool ( with a great GUI and customer service ).  Losing 1/4 oh the Hash still leaves it a small pool.  What we really need is for a couple of the Petahash Icelandic DataCentres to come over.  Trying to nab lots of small miners, who in my experience have the higher electricity bills, is not gonna work.  You need people with low electricity bills so that they can genuinely tough these bad patches out.

People based near Solar and Wind farms are good ( Afirca? ), but the Icelandic mines are the obvious crowd to talk to.  Even if they only divert 1/4 of their hash ( per business ) that's still some nice hash coming in.   It's why Bitmine.ch are doing their hosting out that way.

The problem is how Bitcoin and Electricity cost.  We're in a bit of a perfect storm at present by the looks of it.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/coinfloorGBP#rg120ztgTzm1g10zm2g25

A bad week or two in the pool is one thing, but we've got a price drop coming in at the same time.  It really does hit the small miners I'm afraid.

And what happens to the BTC price when everyone on the network migrates to the 2-3 biggest pools and we're back at the mining-collusion-scare hysteria again?


If you want my conspiracy theory here it is:

Please note, THIS IS A CONSPIRACY THEORY.


Someone released a ton of BTC on the cheap, bringing prices down.  This then breaks the small miners, who then do one of 2 things as they run:

1)  Move to larger ( less risky ) pools.
2)  Invest in hosted mining, to get access to that cheap Icelandic Electricity.

Both Bitmine.ch and CEX.IO are hosted companies.  Bitmine makes hardware, so I doubt they have huge BTC reserves ( although they may have some ).  CEX.IO is a branch of GHash, and you know GHash is gonna have some big reserves.  That much processing kit, plus datacentres for storing the hardware they host, all add up.

Both benefit if small miners move to hosting.  But only one has a huge BTC reserve I'm guessing.

So I think it's GHash that has released the cheap BTC.  But...

[/Theory over]


It doesn't change a thing.  As a small pool we have always faced this threat.  Just like American Farming and the Dust Bowl.  The Big Man squishes the little man time and time again.

You can't out Hash a big Hasher.  But you can out-think them.

Hence why you adjust power-ratios and talk about bet-spreading.


Hope that makes sense Smiley
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August 15, 2014, 01:38:16 PM
 #7325

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...


You're totally right that one person spouting off random ideas of "bet spreading" and switching between pools based on recent challenges can be just enough to make less informed people jump ship.  It needs to stop.

At the end of the day, you're just as likely to be equally successful in any pool.  The payment amounts and frequency change but you'll end up with a comparable amount at the end of the day where ever you mine.  When you're choosing a pool you should be looking at the fees, available services and the ease with which you can run your gear on the pool.  As far as I'm concerned, Bitminter gives me the best of all 3.
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August 15, 2014, 02:37:51 PM
 #7326

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...

It's about paying the electricity dude.  Some of us can't do these bad weeks.

Plus the price of BTC is dropping in the market, which piles the pressure on more.  It's only £300 now, and it was £350 on Monday.

I don't like it, but bills is bills.  I need a certain amount of my payments safe to make sure I get the cash to cover said bills.  It's just how it is I'm afraid.


I'll also be honest:

This has always been a small pool ( with a great GUI and customer service ).  Losing 1/4 oh the Hash still leaves it a small pool.  What we really need is for a couple of the Petahash Icelandic DataCentres to come over.  Trying to nab lots of small miners, who in my experience have the higher electricity bills, is not gonna work.  You need people with low electricity bills so that they can genuinely tough these bad patches out.

People based near Solar and Wind farms are good ( Afirca? ), but the Icelandic mines are the obvious crowd to talk to.  Even if they only divert 1/4 of their hash ( per business ) that's still some nice hash coming in.   It's why Bitmine.ch are doing their hosting out that way.

The problem is how Bitcoin and Electricity cost.  We're in a bit of a perfect storm at present by the looks of it.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/coinfloorGBP#rg120ztgTzm1g10zm2g25

A bad week or two in the pool is one thing, but we've got a price drop coming in at the same time.  It really does hit the small miners I'm afraid.

And what happens to the BTC price when everyone on the network migrates to the 2-3 biggest pools and we're back at the mining-collusion-scare hysteria again?



Market forces I know of...


Not retailers selling off via payment processing...?

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August 15, 2014, 02:51:17 PM
 #7327

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...


You're totally right that one person spouting off random ideas of "bet spreading" and switching between pools based on recent challenges can be just enough to make less informed people jump ship.  It needs to stop.

At the end of the day, you're just as likely to be equally successful in any pool.  The payment amounts and frequency change but you'll end up with a comparable amount at the end of the day where ever you mine.  When you're choosing a pool you should be looking at the fees, available services and the ease with which you can run your gear on the pool.  As far as I'm concerned, Bitminter gives me the best of all 3.
i totally agree
jumping to another pool is in my opinion just throwing away 10 good shift's and spending time to build good shift's at another!
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August 15, 2014, 05:12:28 PM
 #7328

i totally agree
jumping to another pool is in my opinion just throwing away 10 good shift's and spending time to build good shift's at another!


While I don't promote pool jumping,  this is  false logic.  The PPLNS charge-up/wind-down time are symmetrical.  You do not lose anything by mining on a PPLNS pool for a few minutes, nor do you lose anything by leaving it after a few hours.  It is unhoppable because it uses a backward-looking payment allocation, not because it penalizes you if you don't mine constantly.  The expected payout per share on a PPLNS pool never changes based on timing/frequency of submissions.  Every share submission has the same expected payout whether you quit mining immediately after sending it, or if it was your first submission.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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August 15, 2014, 06:22:54 PM
 #7329

I need to donate half a percent to have more than 5 workers, But There is a 1% fee on this donation  Huh

No, that 1% is the pool fee which is taken out of the block income before miners are paid. I put the "(+1% fee)" in there because a lot of people thought if they donate 1% the total is 1% (it's actually 1% donation + 1% fee = 2%). Or that if they set donation to 0% they pay nothing (actually the 1% fee is still there). I tried to make the pool fee more visible to clear up this confusion.

I'll be lowering the donation requirements on several of the perks soon.

For some reason dragons do not work well sharing a worker

The Dragon miners don't implement the Stratum mining protocol properly. They ignore the difficulty the server tells them to use and use whatever difficulty you set in the Dragon miner config. This is incredibly stupid and a violation of the stratum protocol. It can result in most of your work being wasted. Make sure you set a minimum difficulty on your Bitminter workers that is the same or higher than the difficulty you set in your Dragon miner config.

If you already knew this, never mind Smiley Maybe the issue you are having is something completely different.

Thanks for the info Dr, I actually did not know why the dragon miners worked like this.

I find the perks and donation settings confusing non the less  Embarrassed Maybe set up a donation based list, This will create some competition in who donates the most (in %)

I actually want to donate, But I would love to use more workers and not feel like I am paying for them, and have a star next to my name saying I am a donator  Roll Eyes

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August 15, 2014, 11:04:48 PM
 #7330

Come on blocks, don't be stubborn! Hey BTC, you owe us at least 3 < 30 CDF blocks in a row Cheesy
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #2oYGveBVIKXNgnqJ

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August 16, 2014, 05:28:24 AM
 #7331

Come on blocks, don't be stubborn! Hey BTC, you owe us at least 3 < 30 CDF blocks in a row Cheesy
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #2oYGveBVIKXNgnqJ

Hey BTC you owe us at least 500$ per coin, that's where I'm more concerned about at the moment...  Undecided
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August 16, 2014, 08:13:07 AM
 #7332



...but still  Cry

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August 16, 2014, 02:52:57 PM
 #7333

I woke up this morning and discovered that my useless rig had gone from 0.001961% of the shift to 0.003484%. The recent run of bad luck, while statistically certain to turn around, seems to be driving away miners in droves.

I've been debating picking up some S3's and actually getting into mining, as I'm paying a flat rate for my power over the next 15 months, but suspect I'd get a better return by picking up BTC while the price dips. 


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August 16, 2014, 03:06:13 PM
 #7334

4 red's down time for some green's now Huh
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August 16, 2014, 03:57:33 PM
 #7335

i totally agree
jumping to another pool is in my opinion just throwing away 10 good shift's and spending time to build good shift's at another!


While I don't promote pool jumping,  this is  false logic.  The PPLNS charge-up/wind-down time are symmetrical.  You do not lose anything by mining on a PPLNS pool for a few minutes, nor do you lose anything by leaving it after a few hours.  It is unhoppable because it uses a backward-looking payment allocation, not because it penalizes you if you don't mine constantly.  The expected payout per share on a PPLNS pool never changes based on timing/frequency of submissions.  Every share submission has the same expected payout whether you quit mining immediately after sending it, or if it was your first submission.

thx for pointing that out
next time ill think before i type Grin
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August 16, 2014, 04:14:07 PM
 #7336

Back to the christhegoth bet-spreading discussion...

Everyone realizes that switching over to other pools is only going to exacerbate the variance problem, right?  Honestly, the pigeon superstition is dangerous enough to sink a pool, especially one that's <1% of the network.  Nearly a quarter of the pool's hashrate has fallen off in the past couple of days...


You're totally right that one person spouting off random ideas of "bet spreading" and switching between pools based on recent challenges can be just enough to make less informed people jump ship.  It needs to stop.

At the end of the day, you're just as likely to be equally successful in any pool.  The payment amounts and frequency change but you'll end up with a comparable amount at the end of the day where ever you mine.  When you're choosing a pool you should be looking at the fees, available services and the ease with which you can run your gear on the pool.  As far as I'm concerned, Bitminter gives me the best of all 3.

Yes, of course.  Because if I am quiet luck will improve and people won't leave for more reliable money at all.

And every Bitminter miner has read everything I said too.  They've read every post.  In fact, I'm Jesus.  My word is killing the whole pool.  Better blame me for everything!


Or...

You have no idea what you are talking about.  Like how you don't get that some people need regular money and have no choice but to stay where the regular cash is. Business, bills, money, blah.



My bet is on the latter.



Still, if we can make Minter a safer option for people they'll hang around.
r0ger_l
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August 16, 2014, 11:11:50 PM
 #7337

Sorry guys I had to jump ship.   I know you can expect the same payouts over time either way, but there is another factor involved.  The odds keep increasing against us every 14 days.  If the difficulty remained constant then yes I would agree you get the same pay over time eventually.  But the fact is when the odds change every 14 days, you do not have infinity to make up for the variance.  You have 14 days and if you have horrible luck, well you have to make it up now with even harder odds.

I think the logic that you eventually get same pay only holds water if diff remains constant.  Matter of fact if pool speed remains same or drops, you can expect less and is highly unlikely you will ever regain what you lost during the bad time.

I really like this pool, not sure what is keeping another couple petahash from joining us.  If we could hit about 3PH I think we would be able to hold our own, but for now I just can not afford the gamble.
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August 17, 2014, 12:53:58 AM
 #7338

Sorry guys I had to jump ship.   I know you can expect the same payouts over time either way, but there is another factor involved.  The odds keep increasing against us every 14 days.  If the difficulty remained constant then yes I would agree you get the same pay over time eventually.  But the fact is when the odds change every 14 days, you do not have infinity to make up for the variance.  You have 14 days and if you have horrible luck, well you have to make it up now with even harder odds.
I think the logic that you eventually get same pay only holds water if diff remains constant.  Matter of fact if pool speed remains same or drops, you can expect less and is highly unlikely you will ever regain what you lost during the bad time.
I really like this pool, not sure what is keeping another couple petahash from joining us.  If we could hit about 3PH I think we would be able to hold our own, but for now I just can not afford the gamble.
Difficulty has slowed in growth.    Stick it out.   Over the long run, your payout will be the same regardless of the size of the pool.

EDIT:   added end of sentence for clarity that his payout is not going to grow from one pool to the next.   His variance will change.


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August 17, 2014, 01:10:37 AM
 #7339

Difficulty has slowed in growth.

I recommend you not look at the next difficulty adjustment coming in 3 days.  Or the next few coming after that now that ASICMINER is starting to flood the supply chain which will soon find its way into user's hands.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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August 17, 2014, 02:05:14 AM
 #7340

Difficulty has slowed in growth.
I recommend you not look at the next difficulty adjustment coming in 3 days.  Or the next few coming after that now that ASICMINER is starting to flood the supply chain which will soon find its way into user's hands.
I have seen it.  Difficulty growth has slowed, it is like your argument not to base "luck" on one day.   Do not project the curve based on past growth nor on 4 or 5 wafer lots.     I believe it will slow (especially if we can visit $400 again).   
The slope of the curve is changing.   


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